While I agree with Aranna's point that Ahsoka is technically still a padawan, she's a war time Padawan with the experience of a battle tested field commander. With everything that she's been through I wouldn't be surprised that she wasn't far from being a full fledged Jedi. But it's fortunate that she WASN'T, otherwise she would have probably ended up being a casualty of ORDER 66.
Also? does anyone remember what happened to Ventress? Last time we saw her she was helping Ahsoka try and clear her name but after that?
Well said aranna and especially phantom. Jedi is a title, and none of these characters graduated, per se. While I have no problem with characters dying, I don't think the entire series should be them simply expiring on vaders lightsaber while he yawns (can Vader yawn? Hmm....) either - thr rebellion has serious successes and wasn't posed to be wiped out utterly until hoth.
I thought it originally was that the Death Star was the Rebellions first real victory (well, up until the 1990s at least).
Ventress' story was told in the Force Unleashed game series, although it is rumored that she will show up in the new Star Wars movies.
Well said aranna and especially phantom. Jedi is a title, and none of these characters graduated, per se. While I have no problem with characters dying, I don't think the entire series should be them simply expiring on vaders lightsaber while he yawns (can Vader yawn? Hmm....) either - thr rebellion has serious successes and wasn't posed to be wiped out utterly until hoth.I thought it originally was that the Death Star was the Rebellions first real victory (well, up until the 1990s at least).
Major military victory, yes. There were other "wins" on a considerably smaller scale- consider how tiny the successes and major the losses the current team had before this most recent episode.
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(though I still hold out hope that a handless Mace Windu is lurking out there somewhere.)
You and me both...
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Ventress' story was told in the Force Unleashed game series, although it is rumored that she will show up in the new Star Wars movies.
No, that's Mariss Brood, Shaak Ti's apprentice. No one knows what happens to Assaj after the aforementioned episode. Same with Cad Bane, Darth Maul (though he gets a comic adaptation of what happens after losing to Sidious), Captain Rex, and Aurra Sing. I'd love any of these to return, especially Cad Bane.
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Okay, so.
We can sit here splitting hairs and picking nits all we want. The fact of the matter is that there are no other Jedi anywhere in the movies. If there were, they'd have joined the rebellion and been on the front lines, doing their duty, as the code demands. "Jedi" isn't a title of rank, it's the name of the order. Padawan, Knight, Master, those are ranks. You advance through them in tiers. A Padawan is a Jedi. A Knight is a Jedi. A Master is a Jedi. For Tarkin to say "The Jedi are all but extinct. Their fire has gone out of the Galaxy. You are all that remains of their once noble order." is both a statement of fact and a play to Vader's vanity and pride - the two of Anakin's biggest flaws. Tarkin's reminding Vader that the Jedi Order betrayed him, and that it's a good thing they're gone.
Vader willingly wipes out the Jedi order and he feels good about it, because they all betrayed him. Even Ahsoka.
It is because there are no more Jedi that Luke becomes important. The reason that Luke is such a big deal in the movies is because he's basically it as far as the salvation of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader is concerned. Luke is the last of the Jedi. Period. End of story. Vader tries to recruit him because he believes that Luke can be turned. That he can be made to see the folly of the light side and that Obi-Wan and those like him are the real bad guys. And when Luke won't come willingly, Vader plays against Luke's newfound love for his long-lost sister. Vader tries to turn Luke into a being of rage and anger, just like him.
Ultimately, he fails. Not because Luke has control of his anger - It's pretty clear throughout the original trilogy that Luke has some serious issues with that - but because Luke is being ruled by his love for Leia and the rest of his friends. All those times that Anakin cut loose, those were all done out of anger. Frustration. He was jealous of other Jedi who were less skilled than he being given more authority. He was infuriated at the fact that he was The Chosen One, yet he was never trusted by the Council. Anakin's had twenty years to stew over the fact that he was never as special as he should have been. Luke? Luke just wants to be a farm boy. Even when he had his head in the clouds, he still chose to be a farm boy. Sure, he wanted to go out and see the stars, but up to the very last, even when Obi-Wan was offering him a chance to be a Jedi, Luke just ducked his head and said "I have to help at the farm." Ultimately, when Luke gets all up in Vader's face, it's not anger that's driving him. It's love. Love is what kept him on the farm, and it's what keeps him trying to keep Leia and Han and Chewie and everyone else safe. And it's love that reminds him that if he kills his father, he fails. An Angry Luke couldn't do that.
Luke doesn't turn to the Dark Side because he never could have in the first place. Vader loses not because he still loves Luke, but because Lucas (for all people love to hate on him) was trying to push a message that Vader (powered by HATE!) would always be weaker than Luke (powered by LOVE!). In the end, it's not Luke that turns to the Dark Side, it's Vader, watching his son dying, watching Luke be willing to die for what he believes in, that turns Vader to the Light. Vader has shown, over and over again, that he is not willing to die for what he believes in. He was, once, when he was Anakin. But no longer. It takes Luke's sacrifice, it takes Luke nearly dying at the hands of the Emperor, to remind Vader of what it meant to be a Jedi.
And honestly, we can go around and around on the Secret Jedi Who Never Show Up When Needed theories for ages. I am never going to convince any of you that while I think that sort of thing makes good side-stories, that I just don't think that they're appropriate or necessary for the space opera that is Star Wars. And that's okay! I think they make great stories! Hell, I wrote a screen treatment that would introduce a Mace Windu who'd spent 20 years in the bowels of Coruscant in a logical and consistent fashion based on the fact that if Anakin can fall through rush-hour traffic and survive, then someone as badass as Mace could do it too. Even with a missing hand. (Also, what's up with the hand amputation fetish in these movies?)
But while I think they make great side-stories, I just simply don't think they're appropriate or necessary for the actual plot of Star Wars. Having all these other Jedi lurking around out there, being all surreptitious and clandestine... Honestly, I feel it cheapens the Luke/Vader arc and raises too many "Well, if there were all these Jedi out there, why didn't they show up?" questions. I mean, I realize that a lot of people don't like Mr. Lucas, but he had Luke be the Last Jedi for a reason. Anakin was supposed to bring Balance to The Force. I could go into my long-winded essay on why Luke IS that balance (hint: He has emotions AND discipline!), but honestly, you stopped reading round about the words "Even Ahsoka." ;)
I guess the tl;dr version of what I'm saying is that while I get, and even enjoy, the Secret Jedi Side Stories, I don't feel that they're necessary. I think they cheapen the Luke/Vader dynamic. I think in order to really show the tragedy of the fall of Anakin Skywalker, the Jedi order needs to be wiped out, at his hands (or on his order). The story is supposed to be a tragedy. You can disagree with me all you want. That's fine. But instead of coming back with reasons why I and others are wrong to want it this way, could you maybe try to convince us why your way is better?
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It is because there are no more Jedi that Luke becomes important. The reason that Luke is such a big deal in the movies is because he's basically it as far as the salvation of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader is concerned. Luke is the last of the Jedi. Period. End of story. Vader tries to recruit him because he believes that Luke can be turned. That he can be made to see the folly of the light side and that Obi-Wan and those like him are the real bad guys. And when Luke won't come willingly, Vader plays against Luke's newfound love for his long-lost sister. Vader tries to turn Luke into a being of rage and anger, just like him.
But...Luke ISNT the last Jedi.
It can be argued that Luke doesn't actually become a Jedi until that moment when he tosses his lightsaber aside rather than kill Vader (because at that point he's still Vader not Anakin).
But in Empire when Luke decides to cut short his training to go rescue his friends doesn't Obi-wan say something along the lines of "that boy is our last hope" to which Yoda replies "NO, there is another..." I mean he's obviously talking about Leia there. Leia is their plan B. Hence even at that point in the story Luke isnt a Jedi but Yoda is already looking PAST Luke just in case he does not survive his encounter with Vader or WORSE he gets turned.
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(Also, what's up with the hand amputation fetish in these movies?)
It's the best way to - literally - handicap a force-warrior, as they can no longer wield their sabers effectively; and still give them the requisite mobility to allow an action story to work.
I mean, I realize that a lot of people don't like Mr. Lucas, but he had Luke be the Last Jedi for a reason.
I agree. It was very powerful.
I could go into my long-winded essay on why Luke IS that balance (hint: He has emotions AND discipline!),
Very cool idea! Especially in light of the original trilogy.
With regards to everything else, however, I just don't think it's ever been adequately presented in any material ever that the Jedi ever succeeded in sequestering their emotions. Certainly most Jedi Padawans (which is what Luke effectively was) were very emotional. Point in fact, it was in a fit of righteous fury sublimated by Jedi discipline that Obiwan managed to defeat a Sith while still a Padawan - a Padawan ready to graduate, perhaps, but still a Padawan.
To me, Luke at the end of RotJ seems like he's at exactly the same "place" that Ben was.
A much more compelling idea, to me, is that Vader and Palpatine were the dark side, while Obiwan and Yoda were the light side, leaving Luke unknown/in the middle. Hence, a balance. Then the Light died and then the Dark died, and Luke was left. And eventually, he chose Light (though he had quite a few struggles thereafter).
but honestly, you stopped reading round about the words "Even Ahsoka." ;)
Oh, no. Read the whole thing. :D
I guess the tl;dr version of what I'm saying is that while I get, and even enjoy, the Secret Jedi Side Stories, I don't feel that they're necessary. I think they cheapen the Luke/Vader dynamic.
It does, but, frankly, they're already all over the EU anyway. Despite the fact that the EU is going to be erased (effectively), the fact is that the precedent is set. I don't see them killing of Ashoka simply because she's an extremely important cultural figure in the younger Star Wars generation.
Her death would be (potentially) devastating to those kids who grow up with her in mind as a hero to look up to. Sure, that's what happens in the Star Wars universe with many young Jedi and their masters, but her broad cultural appeal - being a strong, independent female, with solid characterization and a great personal story - is too big for Disney to give the okay to axe her off.
I look at this not from a fiction perspective, but from a cultural one. They will be doing themselves a major disservice, as well as the Star Wars customer/fan-base. Will it make a better story? Oh, yes. But they do have to think about how it affects, for example, young girls who grew up on Clone Wars - and there are young girls who grew up on Clone Wars.
That is the reason I don't believe they will.
The story is supposed to be a tragedy.
My initial reaction is "Nnnnnnnnnnnnope." but if you mean Darth Vader's arc (and only Darth Vader's arc) than... sort of. Much less of a tragedy than, say, Hamlet or MacBeth or Romeo and Juliet; but much more of a tragedy than, say, Cars (though that series does have some surprisingly mature things to say - not quite so much the Planes spin-offs, though they're not terrible).
You can disagree with me all you want. That's fine.
SWEET! :D
But instead of coming back with reasons why I and others are wrong to want it this way, could you maybe try to convince us why your way is better?
I think doing one often (but not always) entails doing the other.
That said, I also think that many have been doing exactly what you suggest: supporting their ideas through rhetoric. At least, that's what I'm trying (while coincidentally partially disagreeing and partially agreeing with you). :)
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But...Luke ISNT the last Jedi.
It can be argued that Luke doesn't actually become a Jedi until that moment when he tosses his lightsaber aside rather than kill Vader (because at that point he's still Vader not Anakin).
But in Empire when Luke decides to cut short his training to go rescue his friends doesn't Obi-wan say something along the lines of "that boy is our last hope" to which Yoda replies "NO, there is another..." I mean he's obviously talking about Leia there. Leia is their plan B. Hence even at that point in the story Luke isnt a Jedi but Yoda is already looking PAST Luke just in case he does not survive his encounter with Vader or WORSE he gets turned.
You make a good point. I personally refer to Yoda as "Good old Always Wrong Yoda" (because let's face it...), but yeah, he is referring to Leia, there. I think Ben would argue with him about that, seeing that Luke was what The Force needed at the time, not Leia - Ben was always more practical than Yoda, and when we see that he was trained by Qui-Gon (and his Living Force mentality), we learn why. Yoda, for all his power and knowledge, is not the Living Force, Just Go With It, type. Obi-Wan was, then tried not to be (to give Anakin the "proper" training he deserved), then found that he had to be again. All those years on Tatooine, don't you know.
I think the risk of Luke being turned was very real, at least in their minds. But Luke had the benefit of being raised by parents who loved him (Aunt and Uncle or not, they were his parents), and he never wanted to be a hero. He had the one thing Anakin never had: Humility. He was already more of a Jedi at the age of 19 than Anakin could ever be, even without a day of training. Luke just never wanted any of it. Vader played to a set of emotions and desires that Luke just never even had. You can't force what isn't there, after all.
But you do make a good point. Have you read the comic book - did Dark Horse do it? - where it's Leia who becomes the last Jedi, and turns Vader back to the Light? I dug that. :)
Tacticslion - I was referring only to Vader's story. It's been Lucas' consistent statement that Eps 1-6 are the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker. It's safe to assume that when I refer to "the story" that I'm referring to those movies.
And yeah, the Jedi certainly do not sequester their emotions all that well. At least not Obi-Wan and Anakin. They're supposed to be rather Vulcan-ish in that regard - they have emotions, but they're supposed to be in control of them, not the other way around. Remember, Vader and Palpatine always say "Give in to your ($Negative Emotion)" - that's a clear call to listen to the bad shoulder angel if ever there was one.
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Okay, so.
We can sit here splitting hairs and picking nits all we want. The fact of the matter is that there are no other Jedi anywhere in the movies. If there were, they'd have joined the rebellion and been on the front lines, doing their duty, as the code demands. "Jedi" isn't a title of rank, it's the name of the order. Padawan, Knight, Master, those are ranks. You advance through them in tiers. A Padawan is a Jedi. A Knight is a Jedi. A Master is a Jedi. For Tarkin to say "The Jedi are all but extinct. Their fire has gone out of the Galaxy. You are all that remains of their once noble order." is both a statement of fact and a play to Vader's vanity and pride - the two of Anakin's biggest flaws. Tarkin's reminding Vader that the Jedi Order betrayed him, and that it's a good thing they're gone.
Vader willingly wipes out the Jedi order and he feels good about it, because they all betrayed him. Even Ahsoka.
It is because there are no more Jedi that Luke becomes important. The reason that Luke is such a big deal in the movies is because he's basically it as far as the salvation of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader is concerned. Luke is the last of the Jedi. Period. End of story.
Actually, there are several instances in the clone wars tv series of padawans being told that they are NOT jedi, at least not yet. It is both a title and the name of the order. There are also several Jedi(or at least force sensitive users) in the novels that occur concurrently to episode 4.
Also, Luke is more importent because he is the origin of a NEW Jedi order,one without the hideous flaws of the past (some of which are picked up right again in later fiction...but that's another story).
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Guys, stop killing juvenile female Cathar. They're already endangered enough as a species as it is.
It's Star Wars for pity's sake. I love it as much as the next geek but you're WAY over thinking and analyzing it.
It's not Shakespeare. It's not even Dick. It's in the same space as the pulp serials its a pastiche of.
Also, the writers have already borrowed stuff from WEG's sourcebooks and that had more than a few characters like Cade running around during the Rebellion.
LONG LIVE STAR WARS LEGACY! FOR THE IMPERIAL KNIGHTS!
But...Luke ISNT the last Jedi.
It can be argued that Luke doesn't actually become a Jedi until that moment when he tosses his lightsaber aside rather than kill Vader (because at that point he's still Vader not Anakin).
But in Empire when Luke decides to cut short his training to go rescue his friends doesn't Obi-wan say something along the lines of "that boy is our last hope" to which Yoda replies "NO, there is another..." I mean he's obviously talking about Leia there. Leia is their plan B. Hence even at that point in the story Luke isnt a Jedi but Yoda is already looking PAST Luke just in case he does not survive his encounter with Vader or WORSE he gets turned.
You make a good point. I personally refer to Yoda as "Good old Always Wrong Yoda" (because let's face it...), but yeah, he is referring to Leia, there. I think Ben would argue with him about that, seeing that Luke was what The Force needed at the time, not Leia - Ben was always more practical than Yoda, and when we see that he was trained by Qui-Gon (and his Living Force mentality), we learn why. Yoda, for all his power and knowledge, is not the Living Force, Just Go With It, type. Obi-Wan was, then tried not to be (to give Anakin the "proper" training he deserved), then found that he had to be again. All those years on Tatooine, don't you know.
I think the risk of Luke being turned was very real, at least in their minds. But Luke had the benefit of being raised by parents who loved him (Aunt and Uncle or not, they were his parents), and he never wanted to be a hero. He had the one thing Anakin never had: Humility. He was already more of a Jedi at the age of 19 than Anakin could ever be, even without a day of training. Luke just never wanted any of it. Vader played to a set of emotions and desires that Luke just never even had. You can't force what isn't there, after all.
But you do make a good point. Have you read the comic book - did Dark Horse do it? - where it's Leia who becomes the...
loooooooove infinites. Love that book.
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** spoiler omitted **
I think so? It's been a while since I read it. My copy is around here somewhere. Time to clean the house!
Actually, there are several instances in the clone wars tv series of padawans being told that they are NOT jedi, at least not yet. It is both a title and the name of the order. There are also several Jedi(or at least force sensitive users) in the novels that occur concurrently to episode 4.
Also, Luke is more importent because he is the origin of a NEW Jedi order,one without the hideous flaws of the past (some of which are picked up right again in later fiction...but that's another story).
Okay, you've got me there. I was mistaken about the Title/Rank. Sorry about that. I still think Luke's importance to the prophecy shouldn't be ignored.
Guys, stop killing juvenile female Cathar. They're already endangered enough as a species as it is.
Nah, we have yet to drag real-world science and physics into this. We're just talking about our beloved stories and complaining about people moving our cheese. The Omnipresent Catgirls (seriously, have you played SWTOR recently? They're EVERYWHERE!) are safe. ;)
What if Vader actually turns Ahsoka to the dark side, I mean she has killed wich is something Obi-won would not do. She was already corrupted by the dark side once before as well though she was brought back by the light side after being killed.
Maybe on whatever server you play on, but they're stupidly rare on the Hawk.
And I blame this thread.
What if Vader actually turns Ahsoka to the dark side, I mean she has killed wich is something Obi-won would not do. She was already corrupted by the dark side once before as well though she was brought back by the light side after being killed.
I think Ahsoka would throw herself into a lava pit before she'd turn.
Which of course would just add to Anakin's belief that everyone he loves betrays him...
** spoiler omitted **Maybe on whatever server you play on, but they're stupidly rare on the Hawk.
And I blame this thread.
** spoiler omitted **
Huh.
Well, as far as the balance thing, Vader did bring balance but not the way everyone thought, which is another reason why all the Jedi have to be gone.
When it was only Vader and the Emperor as the two dark side users left, they were balanced out equally by the Master being Yoda and the side kick/other being Obi Wan.
That would be continued just as Luke starts getting to learn how to use the Force with Ben's Death...hence you still have Yoda and Luke to balance out the Emperor and Vader.
Then, after Yoda passes, once again, it's Vader that deposes the Emperor leaving Vader (sure, he's redeemed, he's also still a dark side user) and Luke as the Dark and Light sides of the force.
That sounds about balanced to me.
I believe all of the Jedi knights and masters all were killed off but that possibly many padawans (who hadn't mastered the force yet) were still around and possibly part of the rebel alliance. They may have used the force sparingly and chose not to possess light sabers since such a weapon would single them out as jedi(ish) and the empire without a doubt had bounties on anyone with Jedi training. That's always been my thoughts and kinda goes along with Kanan still being around (he's learning too). And to be honest I didn't like rebels at first but it grew on me and now I thinks it's pretty good.
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Okay, so.
We can sit here splitting hairs and picking nits all we want. The fact of the matter is that there are no other Jedi anywhere in the movies. If there were, they'd have joined the rebellion and been on the front lines, doing their duty, as the code demands.
Why?
The Jedi were meant to be guardians. Peacekeepers. Not soldiers or warriors.
This was something that the prequels screwed up on. Joining into the Clone wars was the downfall of the Jedi. War leads to death, and the Force is created by the life force of all things. Killing weakens the force.
“You will know (the good from the bad) when you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.” Yoda
Remember the effect Alderan's explosion had on Obi-wan... The idea of any hidden jedi just being hidden and aiding in small ways is perfectly legit. War was never their way.
It also plays into my opinion that Luke was a very 'poor' Jedi who never finished his training... I'll be curious to see how much they touch on that in VII
Luke doesn't turn to the Dark Side because he never could have in the first place. Vader loses not because he still loves Luke, but because Lucas (for all people love to hate on him) was trying to push a message that Vader (powered by HATE!) would always be weaker than Luke (powered by LOVE!). In the end, it's not Luke that turns to the Dark Side, it's Vader, watching his son dying, watching Luke be willing to die for what he believes in, that turns Vader to the Light. Vader has shown, over and over again, that he is not willing to die for what he believes in. He was, once, when he was Anakin. But no longer. It takes Luke's sacrifice, it takes Luke nearly dying at the hands of the Emperor, to remind Vader of what it meant to be a Jedi.
I know the whole 'redemption of Vader' is a fan-favorite concept. To me though, I never really bought it. In MY mind, the I-VI is NOT the fall and rise of Vader. it's the story of Obi-Wan's redemption. Ben trained Anakin despite Yoda telling him not to... he did a CRAPPY job of it, and everyone died. Luke was Obi-wan's way of setting his own wrongs right. Up to the point of never telling him Vader was his dad and setting him on the course against an ultimate evil...
That's just MY theory though ;)
As for Vader's 'turn to good'... He already tried to recruit Luke in an effort to kill the emperor and rule the galaxy 'father and son'. The apprentice always tries to kill the master... In the final scenes, we see Vader jump in, join his son and kill the emperor.... JUST as he suggested a movie ago.
I'm sure that was Lucas' goal... but ehhhh still feels a grey area to me. Do people REALLY think that if Vader had NOT died due to his injuries everything would have been sunshine and rainbows? or would he have seized power?
(Also, what's up with the hand amputation fetish in these movies?)
That goes back to my earlier statement about 'not soldiers' and 'no killing'. Hand chopping was a way to end the fight without killing an opponent.
There was a whole rules subsection on targeting limbs in the West End SW RPG.
I guess the tl;dr version of what I'm saying is that while I get, and even enjoy, the Secret Jedi Side Stories, I don't feel that they're necessary. I think they cheapen the Luke/Vader dynamic. I think in order to really show the tragedy of the fall of Anakin Skywalker, the Jedi order needs to be wiped out, at his hands (or on his order).
On his order... UGHHhh... I can't begin to describe how much I hated that concept. We FINALLY get to see the fall of the Jedi and what did it consist of? The biggest scariest sith lord out there murder some helpless kids, While the actual challenges, A bunch of supposedly awesome good guys getting shot in the back by allies!!!
SUCH a disappointment...
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Wow. I knew that people loved the Secret Jedi theory, but I honestly never expected to have to defend on so many fronts just because I don't like something and I think the story as set out in the films is better without it.
If the argument is "any living Jedi would have to join the Rebellion due to the Jedi Code" then how do you explain Obi-Wan and Yoda remaining in hiding? Granted, Obi-Wan joins up once Luke shows up on his doorstep, but Yoda stays put on Dagobah until he dies of old age. The two Jedi we know about spend the entire time between the trilogies sitting on their hands, despite the Rebel Alliance having become a known and recognized force by the beginning of ANH.
I suppose the answer of "they were staying hidden in order to further their plan of eventually pitting Luke against his father" is a little too obvious? Not like Ben doesn't say "we knew we had to keep you and your sister hidden," or anything.
Lots of stuff
See, while I will stand right by your side and shout down the lame way they handled the whole of Order 66 (though, the fact that they knew they'd have to use massed volley fire to take out most of the Jedi showed that someone did think about it tactically in the background, somewhere)... and while I will always complain about how Anakin's descent to evil was basically one big temper tantrum, I don't think it's Ben's fault that Anakin turned out that way.
It's Yoda's. It's the Council's. Had they had a single whit of sense, they'd have stuck Anakin in to the toddler class and had him learn from the ground up. They'd have looked at his power, and his anger, and at the fact that Qui-Gon had just had an encounter with a Sith, and said "Well, darn. If we send this powerful, angry kid out there into the world without training, he's ripe to fall to the Dark Side. We should do something about that!" none of the story would have taken place. If they'd taught that kid humility by making him go through the full training and regimen that all the other kids did, he'd have (or at least I like to think he would have) had to realize that being The Chosen One still meant that you had to work for your success.
Yoda and the Council failed Anakin. Obi-Wan did the best he could. Anakin failed him.
As to your theory of what the trilogies are really about, well, to tell the truth I think the prequel trilogy should have been about Obi-Wan, the original about Vader, and the third about Luke. That's my preferred opinion. BUT. That's not what Lucas wanted, and that's not what we got. What we got is The Rise And Fall Of Anakin Skywalker. Whether we like it or not. Whether we think something else is better or not. Canon is like science: It's true whether you believe in it or not.
And no, totally no, I do not think that Vader would have gone sweetness and light if he'd lived. I think he would have probably either killed himself to save Luke and Leia from his evil, or exiled himself until he could find redemption.
OR, and this would have been amazing, he would have had a fantastic battle with Luke to see which side really was more powerful.
Back on topic though, can we talk about Kanan's saber-blaster?
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Wow. I knew that people loved the Secret Jedi theory, but I honestly never expected to have to defend on so many fronts just because I don't like something and I think the story as set out in the films is better without it.
It's not a matter of a theory that's beloved per se as there being a sizeable amount of beloved fiction that backs up other theories as put out by WEG, Dark Horse, and maybe one or two other areas LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG before episodes 1-3 were even an itch in Lucasfilm's bank account.
Not that all of this older work is GOOD, per se. Don't even get me started on the original explanation with respect to Darth Vader and the Sith with respect to using bionics to replace organic parts...
See, while I will stand right by your side and shout down the lame way they handled the whole of Order 66 (though, the fact that they knew they'd have to use massed volley fire to take out most of the Jedi showed that someone did think about it tactically in the background, somewhere)... and while I will always complain about how Anakin's descent to evil was basically one big temper tantrum, I don't think it's Ben's fault that Anakin turned out that way.
It's Yoda's. It's the Council's. Had they had a single whit of sense, they'd have stuck Anakin in to the toddler class and had him learn from the ground up. They'd have looked at his power, and his anger, and at the fact that Qui-Gon had just had an encounter with a Sith, and said "Well, darn. If we send this powerful, angry kid out there into the world without training, he's ripe to fall to the Dark Side. We should do something about that!" none of the story would have taken place.
Truly, they dropped the ball. One of the biggest issues I had with the first three movies, only mostly redeemed by Clone Wars TV series, was the overall idiocy with respect to how Anakin was handled, and how NOONE noticed his slide to evil.
Back on topic though, can we talk about Kanan's saber-blaster?
Actually, it's Ezra's. Kanan used it better than he did though, strangely enough...
It's not a matter of a theory that's beloved per se as there being a sizeable amount of beloved fiction that backs up other theories as put out by WEG, Dark Horse, and maybe one or two other areas LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG before episodes 1-3 were even an itch in Lucasfilm's bank account.
I think a lot of that work has to do with the fact that, at the time, Lucasfilm (not necessarily Lucas himself) never expected the RPG's, books, or comics to be as popular as the toys, so they just sort of greenlit anything that hit their desks.
And then came Timothy Zahn...
Not that all of this older work is GOOD, per se. Don't even get me started on the original explanation with respect to Darth Vader and the Sith with respect to using bionics to replace organic parts...
Those words have no meaning to us! We do not speak of them!
(And how about Boba Fett going from super badass "sold his whole planet to the Empire and betrayed his oath of Protector" to "clone kid who misses his dead dad"? *mutter mutter grumble*)
Truly, they dropped the ball. One of the biggest issues I had with the first three movies, only mostly redeemed by Clone Wars TV series, was the overall idiocy with respect to how Anakin was handled, and how NOONE noticed his slide to evil.
Right? RIGHT?
Actually, it's Ezra's. Kanan used it better than he did though, strangely enough...
I swear I typed "Kanan using Ezra's"... wtf, mate?
Pass me one of them Cathar rugs...
I never unlocked the Cathar race...
Not that all of this older work is GOOD, per se. Don't even get me started on the original explanation with respect to Darth Vader and the Sith with respect to using bionics to replace organic parts...Those words have no meaning to us! We do not speak of them!
(And how about Boba Fett going from super badass "sold his whole planet to the Empire and betrayed his oath of Protector" to "clone kid who misses his dead dad"? *mutter mutter grumble*)
1) I am most intrigued by this 'theory' you speak of... anyone got a link or explaination?
2) I wonder how super awesome Lucas considered Boba Fett? In the OT he really didn't do anything super awesome.. He stood around a lot and then got casually taken out by a blind dude in ROTJ... the fact that fanbase latched on to him and propelled him so far probably surprised him too...
Though, the stupidity of his 'origin' has no excuse since his popularity was WELLLLLL established by the time ep II came out...
I think I've talked about this in another thread somewhere, but, regarding Boba Fett:
Way way back in the early 80's, before Empire and Jedi had been completely finalized, there were a pair of fold-out posters. On one side of these posters were early-draft movie posters for "The Empire Strikes Back" and "Revenge Of The Jedi." On the other were bits and pieces of teaser data for fans, including early preproduction images (where there were any) of characters (Boba Fett, Lando Calrissian) and machines (AT-AT's!!!!!) and the like.
Both of these posters folded together to form a book of sorts. Unfortunately, folding and unfolding the posters resulted in the posters very quickly breaking apart into just so many 8x12 inch pages, and mine were long ago thrown out by my mother (in a mad "we will clean your room!" jag).
But! The TESB poster introduced us to Boba Fett! Boba Fett was listed as a Bounty Hunter, who had sold out his homeworld and betrayed his people in order to secure his own freedom. That was basically it. He had been a protector (A "super commando") of his world ("Mandalore"), and had sold it out to the Empire in order to save his own skin.
Marvel comics would later, in their Star Wars comics, pick this up and give us the world of Mandalore, with its Protectors. Fett was one of an elite team of Super Commandos, along with such notables as Tobbi Dala and Fenn Shysa. The story was expanded from there, to show the effects that Fett's betrayal of Mandalore had had upon his people and his former compatriots.
As you can probably tell, I prefer this original story - a man so ruthless, so concerned with his own well being and his own advancement, that he's willing to sell out his own planet to The Empire (they couldn't get through Mandalore's defenses, you see) in order to save his own skin.
I think I've talked about this in another thread somewhere, but, regarding Boba Fett:
Way way back in the early 80's, before Empire and Jedi had been completely finalized, there were a pair of fold-out posters. On one side of these posters were early-draft movie posters for "The Empire Strikes Back" and "Revenge Of The Jedi." On the other were bits and pieces of teaser data for fans, including early preproduction images (where there were any) of characters (Boba Fett, Lando Calrissian) and machines (AT-AT's!!!!!) and the like.
Both of these posters folded together to form a book of sorts. Unfortunately, folding and unfolding the posters resulted in the posters very quickly breaking apart into just so many 8x12 inch pages, and mine were long ago thrown out by my mother (in a mad "we will clean your room!" jag).
But! The TESB poster introduced us to Boba Fett! Boba Fett was listed as a Bounty Hunter, who had sold out his homeworld and betrayed his people in order to secure his own freedom. That was basically it. He had been a protector (A "super commando") of his world ("Mandalore"), and had sold it out to the Empire in order to save his own skin.
Marvel comics would later, in their Star Wars comics, pick this up and give us the world of Mandalore, with its Protectors. Fett was one of an elite team of Super Commandos, along with such notables as Tobbi Dala and Fenn Shysa. The story was expanded from there, to show the effects that Fett's betrayal of Mandalore had had upon his people and his former compatriots.
As you can probably tell, I prefer this original story - a man so ruthless, so concerned with his own well being and his own advancement, that he's willing to sell out his own planet to The Empire (they couldn't get through Mandalore's defenses, you see) in order to save his own skin.
Yeah, that's pretty cool. Though, I don't see it totally negated by the crappy clone story. He was what, 8 when his 'dad' died? There's a lot of room for him to go back to Mandalor and hone his super commando skills before we see him in IV...
Both stories may still be canon
Now, what is this about sith and bionics?
Yup.
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Now, what is this about sith and bionics?
I would have to dig out weg stuff to answer that...
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I would love it if instead of killing Ahsoka, Vader freezes her in carbonite so she could be alive and maybe in a live action movie. Though that depends on how long a person could survive in carbonite.
Speaking of carbonite how long was Han Solo in carbonite before they freed him?
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That's quite a long period of time.
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I suppose the answer of "they were staying hidden in order to further their plan of eventually pitting Luke against his father" is a little too obvious? Not like Ben doesn't say "we knew we had to keep you and your sister hidden," or anything.
Not sure the snark was necessary.
You're right. I'd been having a rough day and was defending myself on numerous fronts. Not an excuse, but a reason. I'm sorry for not holding up my end of the conversation better.
Seriously, though, being repeatedly hit both in and off-thread for saying "I don't think Secret Jedi are necessary to tell a good story" is not my idea of a good time.
My point is, you've been arguing that "The Jedi Code demands that any surviving Jedi would have to join the Rebels against the Empire." However, the only two Jedi we have an example of from the movies, the only two you are willing to acknowledge actually exist, explicitly DON'T do what you're saying they're required to do.
So either the Code doesn't demand what you said it does, Obi-Wan and Yoda are directly defying the Code in favor of their own plans, or there's a little more wiggle-room in the Code than you're acknowledging.
Krensky rightly points out later in the thread after your post that we don't have a canonical version of the Jedi Code, and I think that's what has been tripping my argument up.
Please let me try to clarify.
The Code as we see it in the movies is to protect those who need protecting, defend those who can't defend themselves, and more or less "Do The Right Thing" - it's talked about as "The code of the Jedi", but never actually enunciated or enumerated.
With Clone Wars being canon now, we see that while the Jedi are clearly not soldiers, not generals, not military forces, they are dedicated to "preserving the code" and going out and helping people.
My point is, and always has been, that it's not in the Jedi nature to stand idly by while people are being repressed. Or rather, it shouldn't be - I mean, TPM makes it pretty clear that the Jedi Council would rather deliberate for ages than take immediate action even when given overwhelming evidence of bad goings-on right under their notice (the invasion of Naboo, for instance).
The Empire is a repressive and overpowering force for evil in the Galaxy. I think, therefore, that as soon as the Rebellion got enough good licks in to show that they stood a fighting chance, that the Secret Jedi would have realized that now was the time for all good Force Users to do their duty, and shown up to help. I'm not saying they were all hiding like cowards until such time as they couldn't help but win, but rather that they would have seen that this was the break they were waiting for - the destruction of the first Death Star should have been a rallying cry not just for the recently-hushed voices of dissent within the Empire, but for any other Jedi still alive out there who needed a sign from The Force that the time to strike had come.
I get that you hate the idea of "Secret Jedi". But you're directly contradicting yourself in your arguments against their potential existence.
I'm not specifically pro-Secret Jedi, but it doesn't bother me if they exist in a way that makes sense. (And if there are Secret Jedi, Mace Windu could easily be one of them.)
Please don't put words in my mouth when I've said clearly that I also do not hate the idea of Secret Jedi.
I have only ever said that I don't think they're necessary to tell a good story - to tell the continuing story of Star Wars, specifically. I've said over and over that if there were any secret Jedi left in the Galaxy, that I feel that they would have shown up. I have said that it is clear (to me, at least!) that the way Lucas set the story up, there are two Sith, and there are two Jedi, and that's that. Luke comes into it and becomes that "Balance to the Force" that we hear over and over in the Prequels. Any surviving Secret Jedi (we need to make that the name of a band...) throw that aspect of Lucas' story right out the window.
I don't hate the idea of Secret Jedi. I just think that they're not necessary to tell the story of Star Wars and I think that they lessen the importance of the Skywalker family to the story. If there are other Jedi out there, then Luke and Leia are not the "last hope" of the Galaxy. If there are other Jedi still alive and lurking about, then why don't they come to help?
And yes, absolutely, Mace could easily have been one of them. See my previous comment about writing a freakin' screen treatment that dealt with exactly that. I mean, that Mace is one bad motha...
(I'm just talkin' 'bout Mace...)
But seriously, "hating" and "not finding necessary" are two entirely different things!