The best service I ever received was outside of America. This omelette chef was something else, personally making them how I requested while I observed at the grill (it was an interesting set up). It was that type of situation, in that demonstration of care and tailoring to my preferences that I felt he should be tipped. I didn't tip him though, and I didn't have to, because he was paid well at an elite establishment (island hotel) which ensured he was paid well enough to put everything into that omelette cooking and to serve it with a smile and SUCH humility. Truly an inspiration, a deity of customer service.
As I read above, I am seeing all sorts of invectives for those against tipping and those who do not tip or refuse to. There are even allegations of sociopathy for those that do not tip and defend their opinions.
Charming truly. Now do your part to abolish tipping and ensure the workers are paid a fair wage with prices rising to make this happen. If others can pay their workers properly to ensure a high level of service, there is no excuse to fall behind or justify it Americans.
Suing is really inefficient unless you're getting a large return back or you can suffer the loss and you're suing to effect change. It's not for most things people want to sue for on a day to day basis. In theory, you can sue anyone for anything. I wonder if a restaurant or waiter could sue a customer for not tipping... /rubschin
I have actually done a bit of research on this topic - was to settle a bar bet with some buddies a few years ago
Obviously a person who doesn't tip wont have to worry about criminal charges unless the tip was an added gratuity that the table was informed of before the meal. It has been argued in court that the persons informed must do so both verbally as well as show proof that this is a company practice (not a one shot) The few (and I stress few) instances where this has gone to trial most were thrown out or settled. I only found two cases that ruled in favor of the restaurant and both were on sizable checks that also had a service charge for additional services (one was a banquet,the other a bar that had food service)
In regards to civil - the law is kinda gray here (figures right lol) - there are a number of civil cases one can find and the decisions go both ways - again the main factor in all but a few were both an established gratuity policy (say for a certain number of guests at a table for example) and a verbal reminder of said policy. I was unable to find any that were just someone who stiffed someone on a small (under $200) tab. Again that would in my mind be due to the costs of the proceedings in the 1st place as well as the costs of getting a new job because there is NO WAY you're not getting terminated if you sue your customer.
I did not include sensational cases that would be motivated by racial, sexual, or other forms of hate that have been in the news of late. (I.E. comments on receipt of a vulgar manner explaining why no tip)
Hope that helps
Right, but I'm saying that you can fix the minimum wage issue, which obviates the need to "fix" the tipping system. And, let's be honest, raising the minimum wage is more feasible anyway.I'm all for raising the minimum wage to livable levels. But I do not believe that the tipping system runs contrary to progressive principles at all. Employees are guaranteed the minimum wage, and depending on the establishment many make much, much more than that. Abolishing tips would be a band-aid slapped over the sucking chest wound that is the American minimum wage.I don't really think anyone here is seriously advocating one instead of the other. They are overlapping, but separate issues.Except that how the minimum wage applies to tipped employees hasn't really changed much. It still adds layers that are more open to abuse and misuse, and require additional effort on the part of the employee to protect themselves.
In addition, abuse on the small scale is difficult to manage/oppose. Most of the lawsuits are filed against large corporate restaurants, where enough claimants can combine their cases to make it efficient to fight the employer in court. In the case of a mom and pop restaurant, an individual server who has been cheated of their wages will not likely see a large return on taking their employer to court.
If you force restuaunts to pay the standard minimum wage you can get rid of the overhead of making sure tips cover minimum wage. Then the servers get to keep 100% of their tip and policies on tip sharing become much less necessary. It would also make tipping no longer necessary or expected over time and more of a reward, as it orriginally was.
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You haven't been paying attention. The social "contract" goes that you pay for the service you get. The inverse of this is that if you don't pay then you get substandard service. So, it, in essence, becomes a bribe for what should be professional, prompt service. Which, receiving professional, prompt service should be the expectation in any setting where goods are traded for money regardless of any kind of bribe, or "tip," system in place.
When the minimum wage is greatly decreased for servers, tipping is part of the social contract -- whether you believe it should be or not. Happily, you can personally opt out of the contract by not patronizing establishments that pay servers $2.13 an hour.
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I was not around any circle of people of my choosing that tipped regularly until well into my 20s. I can not impress upon you how much the notion of compulsory tipping grates me. Tipping when I want is fine. That's why it's a gratuity. The moment it's required it stops being a nod to something I'm genuinely thankful for and becomes a tax.Do you not know how social convention for tipping works?
Or are you just being deliberately obtuse so that you can justify your miserly behavior?
Oh! I think I understand where the confusion is coming from!
See, a tax is something imposed by a government.
A tip is an informal contract wherein you pay a surcharge to your server for handling your orders, that you have the ability to vary depending on how well your orders were handled.
If a tip were required by a restaurant, that tip wouldn't become a tax, because taxes are imposed by governments, and this would just be a restaurant requiring you to pay a surcharge.
Isn't it funny how in the middle of all of this you've managed to confuse a tax for a private business's surcharge and ended up railing against the very sort of thing classical libertarians hold that private businesses should have the freedom to do?
So weird!
Oh! I think I understand where the confusion is coming from!
See, a tax is something imposed by a government.
A tip is an informal contract wherein you pay a surcharge to your server for handling your orders, that you have the ability to vary depending on how well your orders were handled.
If a tip were required by a restaurant, that tip wouldn't become a tax, because taxes are imposed by governments, and this would just be a restaurant requiring you to pay a surcharge.
Isn't it funny how in the middle of all of this you've managed to confuse a tax for a private business's surcharge and ended up railing against the very sort of thing classical libertarians hold that private businesses should have the freedom to do?
So weird!
Oh SNAP. Pass the Aloe. :P
You haven't been paying attention. The social "contract" goes that you pay for the service you get.
Including the service of your table.
The inverse of this is that if you don't pay then you get substandard service.
Well, no, the inverse would be that if you don't pay you don't get service at all.
So, it, in essence, becomes a bribe for what should be professional, prompt service.
If it were a bribe, you'd be paying it beforehand and you wouldn't be served if you didn't pay it.
Which, receiving professional, prompt service should be the expectation in any setting where goods are traded for money regardless of any kind of bribe, or "tip," system in place.
Sure. You can pay for your food. I'm sure the kitchen will cook it up for you. Just make sure you set your table, deliver your order directly to the kitchen staff, garnish and pick up your food, deliver it to your own table, and bus your plates when you finish. Because those are the services you would no longer be paying for. And, currently, you aren't paying for them anyway.
The ironic part is that you're expected to pay for the service you receive, but you don't. You're getting a level of service that most people pay good money for, for free.
In other words, Buri: The only person in this thread getting "hand outs" is you.
The best service I ever received was outside of America. This omelette chef was something else, personally making them how I requested while I observed at the grill (it was an interesting set up). It was that type of situation, in that demonstration of care and tailoring to my preferences that I felt he should be tipped. I didn't tip him though, and I didn't have to, because he was paid well at an elite establishment (island hotel) which ensured he was paid well enough to put everything into that omelette cooking and to serve it with a smile and SUCH humility. Truly an inspiration, a deity of customer service.
As I read above, I am seeing all sorts of invectives for those against tipping and those who do not tip or refuse to. There are even allegations of sociopathy for those that do not tip and defend their opinions.
Well, I mean, yeah. It's fairly sociopathic behavior. There's no avoiding that.
Charming truly. Now do your part to abolish tipping and ensure the workers are paid a fair wage with prices rising to make this happen. If others can pay their workers properly to ensure a high level of service, there is no excuse to fall behind or justify it Americans.
You seem to think that American wait staff workers live in universal poverty, and that abolishing tipping would fix this.
Neither of those things is true.
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No, not really. Voting with your wallet is a fairly crude tool. Unless a restaurant is notoriously abusive of the employees and the management knows of this reputation, or you're a regular who the management takes seriously for whatever reason, then you not eating there just sends the message that you don't like the restaurant's food, service, ambiance, etc. At best, voting with your wallet sends the message that you don't like that restaurant for an unspecified reason. At worst, they don't even know that you stopped at all.This is the same reason, by the way, that things like an organized boycott of a new video game published by an unpopular company are bad ideas. Because all they see are low sales numbers, with no way to accurately determine the cause of those low sales, they are just as likely to chalk it up to the game itself not resonating, which can have unintended consequences (like sending a message to other publishers that the genre of game in question is unpopular). Boycotts work best on companies with heavily static product lines, where a sudden decrease in sales cannot be attributed to a change in product quality or product reception.
"Voting with your wallet" doesn't have to be silently only. If you (general you) really want to change things, then send letters to the editor of the local paper. Contact local TV stations. Get together with like-minded people and form groups. Boycott any restaurant which doesn't pay a living wage and tell everyone (including the restaurants) that you're doing it and why.
No? I guess the issue isn't that important to you then and you're OK with the status quo. So all talk about wanting to change the system is just that, talk.Political action doesn't have to only mean voting in State and Federal elections and hoping that the people in Washington will do something about it.
Besides, having employees who make (at least) a living wage doesn't mean that you can't tip them extra for extraordinary service! :-)
(a note of clarification: I've been to the US for two extended periods, several months each visit, and have tipped as was customary - didn't receive better or worse service than I would expect from a professional establishment, so just the "normal" tipping amount. I just find the whole "obligated" tipping idea archaic and demeaning (yes master, thank you master, very kind of you master), especially when restaurants pay such low wages and expect the wait-staff to basically make a living off of tips)
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Statistically, quality of service is one of the lower determining factors on the size of a tip.
For a female server, touching male customers on the arm at least once during the meal will be a larger determining factor than the quality of her work.
The best service I ever received was outside of America. This omelette chef was something else, personally making them how I requested while I observed at the grill (it was an interesting set up). It was that type of situation, in that demonstration of care and tailoring to my preferences that I felt he should be tipped. I didn't tip him though, and I didn't have to, because he was paid well at an elite establishment (island hotel) which ensured he was paid well enough to put everything into that omelette cooking and to serve it with a smile and SUCH humility. Truly an inspiration, a deity of customer service.
As I read above, I am seeing all sorts of invectives for those against tipping and those who do not tip or refuse to. There are even allegations of sociopathy for those that do not tip and defend their opinions.
Well, I mean, yeah. It's fairly sociopathic behavior. There's no avoiding that.
Charming truly. Now do your part to abolish tipping and ensure the workers are paid a fair wage with prices rising to make this happen. If others can pay their workers properly to ensure a high level of service, there is no excuse to fall behind or justify it Americans.You seem to think that American wait staff workers live in universal poverty, and that abolishing tipping would fix this.
Neither of those things is true.
No, it is not sociopathic. Explain to me how it is, and whether you are you an accredited psychologist or psychiatrist as you make this claim.
The US has a problem. Other countries have already solved it. Change what is in place. Truly, if you care, change it. Because where I am, we don't have any ridiculous expectations of tipping. We have standards of service, and pay. The employer paying the worker to serve the customers.
I made no claim on "universal poverty". Please show me where I did. I did however say "ensure the workers are paid a fair wage with prices rising to make this happen." Does that sound sociopathic to you?
Abolishing tipping and raising the prices to pay the workers better can ensure no one gets left out. It can also encourage good service, because the nice new wage is lost if they fail to do their jobs. Now, you might consider a view that higher wages should be paid to those grovelling for tipcs and tipping abolished as "sociopathic", but I am waiting to hear how you explain that.
The best service I ever received was outside of America. This omelette chef was something else, personally making them how I requested while I observed at the grill (it was an interesting set up). It was that type of situation, in that demonstration of care and tailoring to my preferences that I felt he should be tipped. I didn't tip him though, and I didn't have to, because he was paid well at an elite establishment (island hotel) which ensured he was paid well enough to put everything into that omelette cooking and to serve it with a smile and SUCH humility. Truly an inspiration, a deity of customer service.
As I read above, I am seeing all sorts of invectives for those against tipping and those who do not tip or refuse to. There are even allegations of sociopathy for those that do not tip and defend their opinions.
Well, I mean, yeah. It's fairly sociopathic behavior. There's no avoiding that.
Charming truly. Now do your part to abolish tipping and ensure the workers are paid a fair wage with prices rising to make this happen. If others can pay their workers properly to ensure a high level of service, there is no excuse to fall behind or justify it Americans.You seem to think that American wait staff workers live in universal poverty, and that abolishing tipping would fix this.
Neither of those things is true.
Most American wait staff DO earn substandard wages, that's a simple fact. The American tipping system is dodge to enable employers to pay their staff substandard wages.
I've never advocated simply abolishing tipping. That by itself is an idiotic stance. Tipping itself is not a problem. It's a problem when it's used to subsidize substandard wages, the way Wal-Mart has food stamp application services to make up for the miserable wages it pays it's staff.
Could you please explain to me why abolishing tipping is idiotic. Are other countries all idiotic when the wage is higher and encompasses labour costs?
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So, fun anecdote for starters:
When I left the fun world of used record storedom, I got a job at the airport with a ground-handling company that had started up at Logan Airport. It was pretty shiznitty (I think they had been in operation for less than a year when I started working there; as soon as I made my 30 days I jumped into to help out with organizing into the Teamsters, but, alas, we ran into the Railways Act...but thats's another story entirely) but, unlike the used record store, it offered tons of overtime. I started doing seventy-hour weeks and Ariel, the sexy roller derby chick I've mentioned before, who was working as a waitress was like "Doodlebug, why are you doing that? What kind of life can you have if you're working seventy hours a week?" and I was all like, "If I work seventy hours a week, I can make five hundred bucks!" (I've never made more than $27k/year, either, Comrade Toenibbler) and she was like "Pfft, I make five hundred bucks over the weekend!"
Anyway, I'm sure TOZ meant it metaphorically, but I like this quote: "Giving one man a feast while letting twenty others starve is not generosity" and I was pondering it at work and I told myself a story and it went like this:
Mary Alice works at Sloe Gin Fizz's. She makes $2.13/hour and covers three tables. During that hour, three couples come in, order two $12 entrees each and a couple of drinks for a $40 tab. Each tips the socially contacted 20% leaving Mary Alice with $26.13. One of the tables leaves early and in comes Citizen Buri, cheap bastard, sociopath and all around not nice guy, who doesn't tip anythng. Mary Alice calls him names, gives half of her tips away (which sounds high to me, but I've never been a waiter) and walks away from the hour with $13.
Meanwhile, across town, her sister, Alice Mary, works at the Jack-in-the-Box where she serves fifty customers in an hour, busts her ass, smiles constantly and still only gets $8.50/hour. Shiznit, let's say she's a crew leader and gets $9.50. On the way home, she wants to get a tomato salad at Sloe Gin Fizz's, but somebody on the internet once told her that if she couldn't afford to tip she should buy groceries instead. So she goes down to the Winn-Dixie, picks up some tomatoes that were harvested by some undocumented NAFTA-fleeing Mexican for 4 cents a bushel (if they're lucky), gets to the checkout line and finds out her EBT card doesn't work because Obama slashed food stamps, passes out in the gutter and dies.
Meanwhile, a bunch of people get on their various smartphones, tablets and other goodies hand assembled in some god-forsaken Chinese Special Economic Zone (Vo Giap, Ambassador of Bachuan thanks all you gwailos, btw) and post page after page about what a dick Citizen Buri is.
Color me unimpressed.
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No, it is not sociopathic. Explain to me how it is, and whether you are you an accredited psychologist or psychiatrist as you make this claim.
I'm sure it won't surprise you that I'm not a mental health professional. But, out of curiosity, would it matter if I were? Somehow I think you'd reject my assertion either way! Just a suspicion. (More importantly, why do you think that would matter? Sociopathy is not a diagnosis, just a description for a type of behavior.)
It's sociopathic because you are, with full knowledge of exactly what you are doing, breaching the social contract between restaurant-goer and wait staff to compensate them for their professional service in waiting your table, and doing so primarily because you know you can get away without repercussion. You are dealing material harm to someone else's livelihood (see: other stories in this thread about wait staff actually having to pay for customers who tipped poorly, to say nothing of those who tipped not at all), however small that harm may be, and justifying it to yourself as a "principled" move. It doesn't matter what you think the situation should be. The situation is that tipping is expected and that not doing so is a total jackass move and demonstrates an incredible lack of empathy.
To you Anklebiter.
http://replygif.net/i/1294.gif
No, it is not sociopathic. Explain to me how it is, and whether you are you an accredited psychologist or psychiatrist as you make this claim.I'm sure it won't surprise you that I'm not a mental health professional. But, out of curiosity, would it matter if I were? Somehow I think you'd reject my assertion either way! Just a suspicion. (More importantly, why do you think that would matter? Sociopathy is not a diagnosis, just a description for a type of behavior.)
It's sociopathic because you are, with full knowledge of exactly what you are doing, breaching the social contract between restaurant-goer and wait staff to compensate them for their professional service in waiting your table, and doing so primarily because you know you can get away without repercussion. You are dealing material harm to someone else's livelihood (see: other stories in this thread about wait staff actually having to pay for customers who tipped poorly, to say nothing of those who tipped not at all), however small that harm may be, and justifying it to yourself as a "principled" move. It doesn't matter what you think the situation should be. The situation is that tipping is expected and that not doing so is a total jackass move and demonstrates an incredible lack of empathy.
If you were a mental health professional you wouldn't throw around the label "sociopathic" because I disagree with you on labour policy.
When it's the ONLY change recommended for the situation in Amrica. Other countries also pay a living wage.
Could you please explain to me why abolishing tipping is idiotic. Are other countries all idiotic when the wage...
I thought we were talking about tipping. When presenting a change to a problem, are we also required to present solutions to all other problems for that first one to be worth considering?
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No, it is not sociopathic. Explain to me how it is, and whether you are you an accredited psychologist or psychiatrist as you make this claim.I'm sure it won't surprise you that I'm not a mental health professional. But, out of curiosity, would it matter if I were? Somehow I think you'd reject my assertion either way! Just a suspicion. (More importantly, why do you think that would matter? Sociopathy is not a diagnosis, just a description for a type of behavior.)
It's sociopathic because you are, with full knowledge of exactly what you are doing, breaching the social contract between restaurant-goer and wait staff to compensate them for their professional service in waiting your table, and doing so primarily because you know you can get away without repercussion. You are dealing material harm to someone else's livelihood (see: other stories in this thread about wait staff actually having to pay for customers who tipped poorly, to say nothing of those who tipped not at all), however small that harm may be, and justifying it to yourself as a "principled" move. It doesn't matter what you think the situation should be. The situation is that tipping is expected and that not doing so is a total jackass move and demonstrates an incredible lack of empathy.
The bolded part is illegal. It's illegal for an employer to:
-charge you for customers who skip out
-not pay you minimum wage
-withhold tips
Now, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but that indicates that there are flaws in the system and I'm very sorry for anyone who has been a victim of employers who violate these rules. It's one of the reasons I think the system should be abolished.
So, if a customer doesn't tip and that lack of tip reduces your hourly wage below minimum wage, the employer MUST make up the difference.
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If you were a mental health professional you wouldn't throw around the label "sociopathic" because I disagree with you on labour policy.
It's not that we disagree on labour policy. You can disagree with labour policy but still tip because that's the way it is. How petulant do you have to be to have your personal policy disagreement transform into a habit of not paying for the things you're supposed to pay for?
And seriously, it's just an adjective. It is not the sole property of the mental health community.
No, it is not sociopathic. Explain to me how it is, and whether you are you an accredited psychologist or psychiatrist as you make this claim.I'm sure it won't surprise you that I'm not a mental health professional. But, out of curiosity, would it matter if I were? Somehow I think you'd reject my assertion either way! Just a suspicion. (More importantly, why do you think that would matter? Sociopathy is not a diagnosis, just a description for a type of behavior.)
It's sociopathic because you are, with full knowledge of exactly what you are doing, breaching the social contract between restaurant-goer and wait staff to compensate them for their professional service in waiting your table, and doing so primarily because you know you can get away without repercussion. You are dealing material harm to someone else's livelihood (see: other stories in this thread about wait staff actually having to pay for customers who tipped poorly, to say nothing of those who tipped not at all), however small that harm may be, and justifying it to yourself as a "principled" move. It doesn't matter what you think the situation should be. The situation is that tipping is expected and that not doing so is a total jackass move and demonstrates an incredible lack of empathy.
The bolded part is illegal. It's illegal for an employer to:
-charge you for customers who skip out
-not pay you minimum wage
-withhold tipsNow, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but that indicates that there are flaws in the system and I'm very sorry for anyone who has been a victim of employers who violate these rules. It's one of the reasons I think the system should be abolished.
So, if a customer doesn't tip and that lack of tip reduces your hourly wage below minimum wage, the employer MUST make up the difference.
No, I'm talking about the instances where the "tip-out" amounts a server pays to the other staff for a table surpass what the server made from that table. It just comes out of the money that server made on tips from other tables, from what I understand. The owner doesn't enter into it unless the net take drops the wage below minimum.
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If you were a mental health professional you wouldn't throw around the label "sociopathic" because I disagree with you on labour policy.It's not that we disagree on labour policy. You can disagree with labour policy but still tip because that's the way it is. How petulant do you have to be to have your personal policy disagreement transform into a habit of not paying for the things you're supposed to pay for?
And seriously, it's just an adjective. It is not the sole property of the mental health community.
Thank you.
"That's sociopathic" ≠ "That individual's behaviors indicate that they could be clinically diagnosed with sociopathy."
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@ Irontruth - If anyone responded to your question vis - defend the morality of tipping - I missed it. Mea culpa.
My answer would be - I don't have to defend the morality of tipping.
I actually think that the practice of "obligatory tipping" is wrong, and should be stopped. But that doesn't mean that I can't call out a person who's only answer to a moral problem is to become a free rider. America's tipping system sucks. Protesting a sucky system by punishing those least able to do anything about it sucks worse.
If you were a mental health professional you wouldn't throw around the label "sociopathic" because I disagree with you on labour policy.It's not that we disagree on labour policy. You can disagree with labour policy but still tip because that's the way it is. How petulant do you have to be to have your personal policy disagreement transform into a habit of not paying for the things you're supposed to pay for?
And seriously, it's just an adjective. It is not the sole property of the mental health community.
Thank you.
"That's sociopathic" ≠ "That individual's behaviors indicate that they could be clinically diagnosed with sociopathy."
Which is, of course, not even a clinical diagnosis to begin with.
But that doesn't mean that I can't call out a person who's only answer to a moral problem is to become a free rider.
And let's not forget that he spent a good page of this thread arguing that tipping is immoral because it's a "hand out" that "subsidizes the lifestyle" of servers.
Now that I think about it, that language is disturbingly close to the sort used by people who won't patronize businesses that employ LGBT employees, because they "refuse to support that lifestyle."
Hmmmmmmm.
If you were a mental health professional you wouldn't throw around the label "sociopathic" because I disagree with you on labour policy.It's not that we disagree on labour policy. You can disagree with labour policy but still tip because that's the way it is. How petulant do you have to be to have your personal policy disagreement transform into a habit of not paying for the things you're supposed to pay for?
And seriously, it's just an adjective. It is not the sole property of the mental health community.
Betts, it comes down to this. You are saying "but muh status quo" and trying to cast me as a loopy sociopath when I say I want no part of it and will not indulge in it. I expect the costs to cover labour (as in, you know, most of the world), and it is up to Americans such as yourself to make sure that it does; and that the wages of labour are fair (or you can call a foreigner a sociopath for not playing the tipping game).
Raise the minimum wage, eliminate the problem of no or low tipping.
Perhaps do your part to vote in at least one reformist labor party in your life (not very American, I know). ;)
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If you ever wanted to meet Comrade Anklebiter...just drop on by!
Otherwise, National Campaign
Vive le Galt!
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If you were a mental health professional you wouldn't throw around the label "sociopathic" because I disagree with you on labour policy.It's not that we disagree on labour policy. You can disagree with labour policy but still tip because that's the way it is. How petulant do you have to be to have your personal policy disagreement transform into a habit of not paying for the things you're supposed to pay for?
And seriously, it's just an adjective. It is not the sole property of the mental health community.
Betts, it comes down to this. You are saying "but muh status quo" and trying to cast me as a loopy sociopath when I say I want no part of it and will not indulge in it. I expect the costs to cover labour (as in, you know, most of the world), and it is up to Americans such as yourself to make sure that it does; and that the wages of labour are fair (or you can call a foreigner a sociopath for not playing the tipping game).
Raise the minimum wage, eliminate the problem of no or low tipping.
Perhaps do your part to vote in at least one reformist labor party in your life (not very American, I know). ;)
That's making some pretty big assumptions about Betts.
How do you know that he *isn't* trying to reform things? Or at least voting for reformist politicians? There are real and active movements in the US that are trying to do those things.
However, until things are reformed, it seems that you are happy feeding into an exploitative system. If you knowingly contribute to businesses that you feel are exploiting their workers, you are complicit in that exploitation. I'm all for "voting with your wallet", but that involves not frequenting establishments that support the economy of obligatory tipping, not just exacerbating the exploitation of the people in the equation with the least amount of power.
"This practice sucks. I'm aware of it, and agree that it sucks. Instead of choosing not to participate in a sucky system, I am going to become a free rider and benefit from the sucky system. I'm a good and smart person." ... At least that's how it reads to me. Maybe I misunderstand.
I will tell you why, because he is attacking those that don't/won't tip when the real shady folk are not those that don't pay extra for a hamburger, the real shady folk are the employers paying terrible wages to their workers.
These employers are exploiting the loophole of having their employees paid directly by the customer.
They should be paying the worker the full costs of their presence and work, paying for their services to the business and paying for a high level of service to the customer.
This is really basic, but supporters of the loophole like Betts just don't seem to get it. The non-tippers are not the real issue and are not the real problem.
Please see Anklebiter's page for more.
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Thank you, Comrade Under the Bridge.
While I agree that the non-tippers are neither the real issue, nor the real problem, for the record: I tip well.
Well, as well as I can.
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I will tell you why, because he is attacking those that don't/won't tip when the real shady folk are not those that don't pay extra for a hamburger, the real shady folk are the employers paying terrible wages to their workers.
These employers are exploiting the loophole of having their employees paid directly by the customer.
They should be paying the worker the full costs of their presence and work, paying for their services to the business and paying for a high level of service to the customer.
This is really basic, but supporters of the loophole like Betts just don't seem to get it. The non-tippers are not the real issue and are not the real problem.
Please see Anklebiter's page for more.
I haven't seen him defend the exploitative companies (again, perhaps I missed it). But again, until the system actually changes, by not tipping, you are also a problem, not the solution.
To be as clear as possible: I agree that the real problem is paying crummy wages that force the tipping economy. But know that the tipping economy exists but frequenting places that pay their employees 2.13 an hour and not tipping, you are in no way helping end the real problem, but you are further hurting those getting the short end of the stick to begin with.
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Betts, it comes down to this. You are saying "but muh status quo" and trying to cast me as a loopy sociopath when I say I want no part of it and will not indulge in it.
Neglecting social norms and mores regardless of the harm you're causing to others is part and parcel with sociopathic behavior.
I'm not trying to cast you as anything.
I expect the costs to cover labour (as in, you know, most of the world),
Why should you get to dictate reality according to your expectations? What you expect isn't important. You don't just get to ignore social customs if you don't like them, at the expense of others, and expect people to consider you a swell guy.
and it is up to Americans such as yourself to make sure that it does; and that the wages of labour are fair (or you can call a foreigner a sociopath for not playing the tipping game).
Yeah, we're working on that. I don't know if you heard, but this guy I spent a year and a half non-stop campaigning for just raised the minimum wage for federal contract workers today (the best he can do without broad congressional approval). In the meantime, be a decent person and tip.
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"Voting with your wallet" doesn't have to be silently only. If you (general you) really want to change things, then send letters to the editor of the local paper. Contact local TV stations. Get together with like-minded people and form groups. Boycott any restaurant which doesn't pay a living wage and tell everyone (including the restaurants) that you're doing it and why.While this is good advice and true to boot, it's exactly my point. Organizing, publicizing, and putting pressure on business owners and politicians is how you make change. This is voting with your vote, not your wallet.
It's both, actually. ;-)
Voting with your wallet by boycotting certain places and taking your business elsewhere (to places where they do pay a living wage, if any such place exists in your area). AND adding social/political activism by "shouting it to the world."
I will tell you why, because he is attacking those that don't/won't tip when the real shady folk are not those that don't pay extra for a hamburger, the real shady folk are the employers paying terrible wages to their workers.
Tipping isn't paying extra, tipping is paying the proper amount.
Where the hell do you think the employee's wage would come from if there weren't tips? Thin air?
If you hate tipping, just pretend that all your food cost an (actual) extra 18%, and pay that amount, regardless of the service. It'll all work out in the end and no one will know that you're secretly a jerk.
These employers are exploiting the loophole of having their employees paid directly by the customer.
Which excuses your behavior how?
"How dare you exploit your workers! To show how much I disapprove of your exploitation of your workers, I'm going to give one of your workers a 0% tip! That'll show you, owner-who-doesn't-care-about-tips! Take that!"
If everyone used your logic, environmentalists would be protesting deforestation by going out and murdering endangered rainforest creatures!
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The thing is, not tipping your server is just a douche-bag move. The only person in the establishment it affects is your server. You can rationalize it as not supporting the system, but the employers paying terrible wages to their workers don't lose any money, and aren't given any reason change their workers wages. If you boycotted those restaurants, and were public about your reasons for doing so, that might accomplish something, but not tipping is irrelevant what's being called the real issue and the real problem.
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Mine: Smashing capitalism.
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Let’s talk about minimum wage. Obama said, “No one working full-time should have to raise a family in poverty.”
And his solution? Raising the minimum wage to $10.10 over 3 years
I absolutely welcome any step forward on raising the minimum wage. And it is outrageous how the Republican Party is standing in the way.
But let’s be honest: $10.10/hour over three years – or $20,000 per year if you are lucky enough to have a full-time job – is not a ticket out of poverty for working families.
Fast food workers and Walmart workers have gone on strike and built powerful protests in cities in every part of the country over the past year for $15/hour. And that is the only reason politicians are now talking about raising the minimum wage.
Look at the example of the SeaTac $15/hour initiative. A initiative for $15/hour minimum wage was on the ballot – and won!
“Let’s make this a year of action,” Obama said.
In my view, we need action by working people and the poor for higher wages and a $15/hour minimum wage. Action by young people fighting student fees and the debt around their neck for the rest of their life. Action by homeowners against the epidemic of foreclosures. By trade unionists against anti-trade union laws and for workers’ rights.
Get organized!
Get active in your union. Get active in a local movement. Join the struggle to defend the environment.
Join with me and my organization, Socialist Alternative, to challenge big business and fight capitalism.
The epicenter of the fight back in 2014 is the Fight for Fifteen. I urge you to be part of this struggle. Find out more and sign up to get involved at 15Now.org.
Solidarity!
Let’s talk about minimum wage. Obama said, “No one working full-time should have to raise a family in poverty.”
And his solution? Raising the minimum wage to $10.10 over 3 years
I absolutely welcome any step forward on raising the minimum wage. And it is outrageous how the Republican Party is standing in the way.
But let’s be honest: $10.10/hour over three years – or $20,000 per year if you are lucky enough to have a full-time job – is not a ticket out of poverty for working families.
Raising minimum wage does nothing to solve poverty. Companies just use it as an excuse to raise prices, which means that all it will do is devalue the currency.
Until that problem is solved, raising minimum wage is a losing proposition.
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I don't recall if we did this before, Citizen Janus. If not...here's a fun thread for you.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Let’s talk about minimum wage. Obama said, “No one working full-time should have to raise a family in poverty.”
And his solution? Raising the minimum wage to $10.10 over 3 years
I absolutely welcome any step forward on raising the minimum wage. And it is outrageous how the Republican Party is standing in the way.
But let’s be honest: $10.10/hour over three years – or $20,000 per year if you are lucky enough to have a full-time job – is not a ticket out of poverty for working families.
Raising minimum wage does nothing to solve poverty. Companies just use it as an excuse to raise prices, which means that all it will do is devalue the currency.
Until that problem is solved, raising minimum wage is a losing proposition.
You probably want to reconsider ever listening to whoever told you that was true.
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I opened a Boston Market once. I was the sandwich maker. Do you need to have started a restaurant to have an opinion about tipping?
I don't recall if we did this before, Citizen Janus. If not...here's a fun thread for you.
It's on my list of threads to check out. I haven't gotten around to it yet.
I will tell you why, because he is attacking those that don't/won't tip when the real shady folk are not those that don't pay extra for a hamburger, the real shady folk are the employers paying terrible wages to their workers.Tipping isn't paying extra, tipping is paying the proper amount.
Where the hell do you think the employee's wage would come from if there weren't tips? Thin air?
If you hate tipping, just pretend that all your food cost an (actual) extra 18%, and pay that amount, regardless of the service. It'll all work out in the end and no one will know that you're secretly a jerk.
These employers are exploiting the loophole of having their employees paid directly by the customer.Which excuses your behavior how?
"How dare you exploit your workers! To show how much I disapprove of your exploitation of your workers, I'm going to give one of your workers a 0% tip! That'll show you, owner-who-doesn't-care-about-tips! Take that!"
If everyone used your logic, environmentalists would be protesting deforestation by going out and murdering endangered rainforest creatures!
I expect the wages to come from the employer. You know, the person that supposedly employs them?
"Tipping isn't paying extra, tipping is paying the proper amount."
Impossible, as tipping rates vary. Which of the tips is the right amount? 5%, 10%, 20% 17.90%? You also don't know their wage unless you ask and they tell you. Some services get decent wages, some get screwed. So do you see why it needs to be removed yet? Can you grasp that while this is normal for you, status quot, for others it is a convoluted and ridiculous setup? I am also not interested in assigning a +15% amount to basic service or playing around with the percentage based on how I feel that day and whether I got touched up by the waitress. Which then apparently means I am supposed to cough up more money. Screw that social convention. When I want food I don't want an arm rub, and I certainly don't want to pay for it. I want the damn meal!
Tipping is paying extra to the advertised price. I don't want the actual cost to be higher than the advertised cost, and I reject any social conventions that say, no, you should pay more than the cost on the wall. Keep it nice and clear, and make sure everyone gets paid. While you are at it, get rid of this tipping nonsense.