Bite attack and Flurry of Blows, how much damage?


Rules Questions


So heres the deal. Flurry of blows talks about applying "his full strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attack was made with an off-hand or a weapon wielded in two hands."

As far as I know, this is basically giving monks Double Slice build into their pseudo Two-Weapon Fighting, while also making a note, that a weapon wielded in two hands, still only applies 1x strength bonus.

The question then becomes, what happens when a character with Feral Combat Training and a bite attack as his sole natural weapon, flurries. The natural weapon, being the only one he has, applies 1.5x strength bonus on damage rolls. It is however not wielded in two hands, but possesses this function innately.

So, in this case, can "his full strength bonus" be assumed to be 1.5x strength? Seems to be the case, since the only exception stated in flurry, refers to weapons in two hands.

Your thoughts gentlemen and ladies, give them to me!


I would tend towards the idea that you only get 1x strength, since flurry appears to overturn normal rules about that bonus. It is not too much of a loss though, since you still get 1.5x power attack.

Sczarni

I'm gonna say 1x STR damage.

FCT also has the caveat that effects that augment UAS, also augment the natural weapon. In this case that means only 1x STR.

However, all is not lost. Your bite attack also scales with your UAS damage as you go up in level, and you can apply the additional damage granted by the Dragon Style feats, assuming you take the,.


The thing is, in the case of a character attacking with his only natural weapon, his "Full Strength Bonus" is 1.5x Strength. The only caveat in the flurry rules, speaks about wielding something in two hands, which a bite certainly isnt.

Extra question.

The Improved Natural Attack feat is a "Monster Feat". Ive heard talk that such feats cannot normally be taken by PCs.

Is this true? Am I forced to dip 2 levels of ranger to get this feat?


Deliverance wrote:


The thing is, in the case of a character attacking with his only natural weapon, his "Full Strength Bonus" is 1.5x Strength. The only caveat in the flurry rules, speaks about wielding something in two hands, which a bite certainly isnt.

The general rule is that a single natural attack does that 1.5x str damage and you cannot use natural weapons in a flurry, once you start using FCT and flurry, specific rules trump the general rules. You can use the bite in a flurry and attacks made in a flurry deal str mod in damage.


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@Extra question: nothing says you cannot, in a core rule book game no PC has a natural attack innately to gain the feat. Obviously the game has expanded since then so RAW as long as you can fulfill the requirements you can take the feat. In the end it is up to the GM as always though.


I agree with the x1 Str Bonus.


Komoda wrote:
Doesn't flurry exclude natural attacks?

FCT=Feral Combat Training.


Yeah, was fixing my mistake while you were posting.


My 2 cents - if there is a clause that says the attack does 1.5x str damage then you keep the extra damage (Dragon Disciple for example).

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Flurry with FCT and a 1.5x STR Bite = 1x STR Flurry.

Improved Natural Attack = not allowed without GM acceptance or 2 levels of Ranger.


James Risner wrote:
Improved Natural Attack = not allowed without GM acceptance or 2 levels of Ranger.

You mean RAW it doesn't work, or it's a RAW thing that many GM won't like ? I'm just curious.


You only get 1x... yeah, it's all been said. Nice job everyone!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Regarding Bestiary Feats, the only RAW statement is in the beginning of the Monster Feats section:

"Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them (particularly Craft Construct)."

In PFS, Monster Feats are explicitly forbidden unless granted from another sourch (such as Ranger Natural Weapon Style). For non-PFS games, as always this is entirely up to your GM. Most GM's I've seen have no problem allowing Bestiary/Monster feats apply to the player when applicable.

Grand Lodge

James Risner wrote:
Improved Natural Attack = not allowed without GM acceptance or 2 levels of Ranger.

That is not a rule.

It may be a houserule in your game, but that is all it is.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

blackbloodtroll wrote:
That is not a rule.

Neither is there a rule saying the feats are available for players. It is in a GM book with a caveat that some players might qualify.

So while there isn't a rule that says you can't take it, there also isn't a hard rule saying you can.

Either way it is a house rule, since the GM of your game is in charge of whether or not it is useable.

For PFS, it is not available.

Grand Lodge

James Risner wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
That is not a rule.

Neither is there a rule saying the feats are available for players. It is in a GM book with a caveat that some players might qualify.

So while there isn't a rule that says you can't take it, there also isn't a hard rule saying you can.

Either way it is a house rule, since the GM of your game is in charge of whether or not it is useable.

For PFS, it is not available.

Actually, what it says is:

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary wrote:


Monster Feats:
Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters,
although some player characters might qualify for them
(particularly Craft Construct).

So, whilst the PFS houserules prohibit them, they are available to players, unless the DM houserules otherwise.


Deliverance wrote:

The thing is, in the case of a character attacking with his only natural weapon, his "Full Strength Bonus" is 1.5x Strength. The only caveat in the flurry rules, speaks about wielding something in two hands, which a bite certainly isnt.

Nah, "full" in this context means "not half".

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

blackbloodtroll wrote:

So, whilst the PFS houserules prohibit them, they are available to players, unless the DM houserules otherwise.

I read the book before I post, but sure. All this means is we differ in opinion.

Liberty's Edge

blackbloodtroll wrote:
So, whilst the PFS houserules prohibit them, they are available to players, unless the DM houserules otherwise.

Just clarifying.

You mean 'unless the GM rules otherwise'.

The rule in the book leaves it open for a GM to decide. A houserule is a deviation from the official rules.

Grand Lodge

There is nothing, at all, that suggests that feats in the Bestiary, are unavailable to PCs that qualify for them.

In fact, it goes out of it's way to say some of the feats are ones that a PC would qualify for.

So, they are available to players, unless the DM houserules otherwise.

Not, the other way around.

It is a RAW restriction that only exist in many people's imagination, as it is a common houserule, so, many confuse it with an actual written rule.


I'm with BBT: The only thing the rules said are "Most of those feats are more "monsters-oriented", but if you qualify, let's go".

Would you forbid a Strix character to take Fly-by attack ?


blackbloodtroll wrote:

There is nothing, at all, that suggests that feats in the Bestiary, are unavailable to PCs that qualify for them.

In fact, it goes out of it's way to say some of the feats are ones that a PC would qualify for.

So, they are available to players, unless the DM houserules otherwise.

Not, the other way around.

It is a RAW restriction that only exist in many people's imagination, as it is a common houserule, so, many confuse it with an actual written rule.

It is custumary, and i belive nessesary, for a GM to allow some resources and dissalow others. I dont think allowing some books and not using every thing found on the internet since the start on 3.0 is a houserule.

Yes the GM and the players use some rules and often the Beastiarys are not on the PC creation list unless someone remember to ask the GM.

If, evertyhing is available to the players unles the GM houserules otherwise. Then yes, it is a houserule to not allow players to use monster feats.

Grand Lodge

There are a number of things in the Bestiary available to PCs.

Anytime any PC buys a mount, or other animal, they need the Bestiary for the stats.


Consider the bite as a two-handed weapon... which also gets only 1xStr bonus during a flurry.

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