And the Wallmart is selling you food and items. It can try to convince you that you need something that you don't really need, but that is a far cry from taking something from you without giving anything in return and then using what it has taken to damage you or other people.
That WOULD be evil.
Thankfully, that is not what is happening.
The OP has provided a service. People pay him money, he gives them pastries. So, "taking without giving" is flat out false.
He has laced the pastries with a low grade magic that makes the pastries mildly psychologically addictive (but not irresistibly so) and act as an oral lubricant...people become more talkative, and what they say is more trustworthy.
No harm done implicitly in either case.
So, what makes the action aligned is what he DOES with this information.
Using it to harm others is certainly evil. Using it for his own and nobody else' benefit is Neutral (this does not include selling personal info the thieves and like actions, those are indirectly harming others).
Using it to help his party (good aligned adventurers and heroes) and the city watch (keepers of the peace) is a good action, or at least a neutral one.
This last is what the OP is doing.
So, overall tally:
Action: Morally ambiguous. To throw the other side a bit of a bone, we'll say "mildly evil".
Outcome and Intent: Definitely slightly Good.
Sum alignment: Neutral, unchanged.
That is like the poster boy of Lawful Neutral. Morally ambiguous actions for a future good.
|
@Claxon pretty much summed it up earlier.
I believe there has been commentary to the effect of "murdering people and then giving gold to charity to assuage your guilt doesn't make you any less evil for being a murderer". At some level your intentions do matter. Good is unarguably good, but doing small acts of good to counter your evil acts doesn't erase them or mean they've been nullified. Especially if you motivation is only to do such, not because you genuinely want to help.Hasn't the OP actually clarified that a lot of that information is also being used to benefit both the party and the city free of charge? The fact that I haven't slept in what seems like an eternity might be causing me to imagine this, but I could've sworn this was brought up.
The party? Pure self interest.
The city? Not exact from what I have read. I will give it to the city when it suit his interest. Sure, his interests include keeping the city working and relatively safe, but from what I get things like some individual embezzling public found will not be revealed, it will be kept to blackmail the target.
The OP say that the paladin know all about his scheme and is indirectly befitting from it, BTW. That put the paladin in the fallen category without a doubt.
The Paladin player can be unwilling to start PVP in the party, but his character is knowingly befitting fro mind control on the city population and blackmail. I don't know any paladin code that will condone that unless it was done against a city full of evil people and with an evil government, and even that will be iffy.
|
That's still assuming the GM is ruling this evil. The fact that his character hasn't suffered an alignment change appears to imply that, at least in this fellow's world, none of these activities are inherently evil, else you are indeed correct about the paladin. If nothing else he could simply refuse additional funds or gifts of equipment from the spell caster responsible for the rather amusing use (or misuse, depending upon one's view) of such mild magics. It's a far cry from stopping it, but at least he is no longer reaping the benefits. Seems to me like that ought to be a suitable enough middle ground to prevent needless friction.
Really?
So the BEEG minion that control you to get all the possible informations on your party so that the BEEG will have a easy time in defeating you and your companions is neutral?The dear OP is doing exactly that. "Oh, James is cheating his wife. That is worth a pretty penny if my man will say that to the wife."
"Oh, the merchant Guild will move a big sum by carriage next week, I know some bandit that will love to know that."
"Oh, the Magistrate to the Waters is embezzling the city founds. That should keep secret, it is a good information to have when I need something from him."Any of those actions can wreak someone life.
So in your eyes just knowing sensitive info is an evil act?
Because that's what this comes off as.
you don't seem to care what it's used for, it's the simple fact that the info was collected to begin with that is evil.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And the Wallmart is selling you food and items. It can try to convince you that you need something that you don't really need, but that is a far cry from taking something from you without giving anything in return and then using what it has taken to damage you or other people.That WOULD be evil.
Thankfully, that is not what is happening.
The OP has provided a service. People pay him money, he gives them pastries. So, "taking without giving" is flat out false.
Service: money vs food OK
Then we have
Enchantment used to force people to speak the truth and to divulge more than they want VS ????
What is the equivalent "service"?
He has laced the pastries with a low grade magic that makes the pastries mildly psychologically addictive (but not irresistibly so) and act as an oral lubricant...people become more talkative, and what they say is more trustworthy.No harm done implicitly in either case.
So spiking your drink is a no issue?
So, what makes the action aligned is what he DOES with this information.Using it to harm others is certainly evil. Using it for his own and nobody else' benefit is Neutral (this does not include selling personal info the thieves and like actions, those are indirectly harming others).
Using it to help his party (good aligned adventurers and heroes) and the city watch (keepers of the peace) is a good action, or at least a neutral one.
LOL. I am working for teh good guys so my actions are always good, and as my actions are always good, we are the good guys.
This last is what the OP is doing.So, overall tally:
Action: Morally ambiguous. To throw the other side a bit of a bone, we'll say "mildly evil".
Outcome and Intent: Definitely slightly Good.
Sum alignment: Neutral, unchanged.
That is like the poster boy of Lawful Neutral. Morally ambiguous actions for a future good.
Nowhere in the OP post there is anything about a "future good". he is helping his party. So far we know that they: have a supposedly LN wizard, a supposedly unfallen Paladin and a lot of downtime. and they live in Magnimar.
And yes, that the OP character has destroyed a rival organization and killed his boss.So far I don't see any "future good".
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I honestly don't think I'd consider blackmailing people evil, just like tearing information out of someone's mind (or making them talk) aren't necessarily evil. Any form of misuse, information brokering aside, could quickly become all kinds of unlawful, but it doesn't strike me as necessarily evil. Wrong doesn't necessarily have to equate to evil. That's what makes this situation so amusing to sort through, I guess. There are valid points for both sides (really more like four different sides) of the issue floating around.
Blackmail people as a profession isn't a evil act ...
Yes, we will never agree if that is your starting point.|
|
Really?
So the BEEG minion that control you to get all the possible informations on your party so that the BEEG will have a easy time in defeating you and your companions is neutral?The dear OP is doing exactly that. "Oh, James is cheating his wife. That is worth a pretty penny if my man will say that to the wife."
"Oh, the merchant Guild will move a big sum by carriage next week, I know some bandit that will love to know that."
"Oh, the Magistrate to the Waters is embezzling the city founds. That should keep secret, it is a good information to have when I need something from him."Any of those actions can wreak someone life.
So in your eyes just knowing sensitive info is an evil act?
Because that's what this comes off as.
you don't seem to care what it's used for, it's the simple fact that the info was collected to begin with that is evil.
You have read only the first half of each example? Or you really think that keeping informations so that you can blackmail a city officer for your benefits is a good act? Selling a money transport routine to the bandit a good act?
So spiking your drink is a no issue?
Poor example. Spiking my drink has physiological effects beyond my being more talkative, which could even include a eadly allergy to alcohol or some such.
This magic carries no such risk.
A more valid example would be "Is setting up a hidden microphone in your home evil"?
And while I would say it's pretty despicable, it's not EVIL.
LOL. I am working for teh good guys so my actions are always good, and as my actions are always good, we are the good guys.
More like "I am working for the good guys and we do good things, this helps the good guys do good things, therefore I am a good guy".
Nowhere in the OP post there is anything about a "future good". he is helping his party. So far we know that they: have a supposedly LN wizard, a supposedly unfallen Paladin and a lot of downtime. and they live in Magnimar.
And yes, that the OP character has destroyed a rival organization and killed his boss.
So far I don't see any "future good".
"Nowhere does it say X" is a good argument if you've never played this game before.
But it's a more than fair assumption that if there's a Paladin around, there's some sort of quest. Otherwise, why is he around?
And if he's a Paladin, it's not going to be an Evil quest.
You have read only the first half of each example? Or you really think that keeping informations so that you can blackmail a city officer for your benefits is a good act? Selling a money transport routine to the bandit a good act?
I chose to ignore them because they weren't relevant. That basically confirms exactly what I said earlier...it's what you do with the info that counts.
You seem to be focusing solely on negative things that can be done with information, and thus drawing the conclusion that the OP is doing negative things with info because he has info.
Circular logic. It's evil because it's evil because I say it's evil because it's evil.
|
|
I honestly don't think I'd consider blackmailing people evil, just like tearing information out of someone's mind (or making them talk) aren't necessarily evil. Any form of misuse, information brokering aside, could quickly become all kinds of unlawful, but it doesn't strike me as necessarily evil. Wrong doesn't necessarily have to equate to evil. That's what makes this situation so amusing to sort through, I guess. There are valid points for both sides (really more like four different sides) of the issue floating around.Blackmail people as a profession isn't a evil act ...
Yes, we will never agree if that is your starting point.
Pretty much yeah, that appears to be about where it's at. I'm just not one to take a hardline against things that aren't outright evil, and this doesn't necessarily have to be outright evil. Definitely a moral grey area, and I will concede that it is most assuredly not "good." It's probably even on the darker side of neutral, at least in my opinion. But uh... yeah. That paladin being around implies that the party is involved in a good aligned quest, otherwise he wouldn't be there, so that's at least something in the wizard's favor.
|
@Claxon pretty much summed it up earlier.
I believe there has been commentary to the effect of "murdering people and then giving gold to charity to assuage your guilt doesn't make you any less evil for being a murderer". At some level your intentions do matter. Good is unarguably good, but doing small acts of good to counter your evil acts doesn't erase them or mean they've been nullified. Especially if you motivation is only to do such, not because you genuinely want to help.Hasn't the OP actually clarified that a lot of that information is also being used to benefit both the party and the city free of charge? The fact that I haven't slept in what seems like an eternity might be causing me to imagine this, but I could've sworn this was brought up.
... Okay, you've got me on that one. I used to work there; whatever stories you heard probably weren't exaggerated.
And from what I hear of the wages paid to the workers, Wallmart is pretty evil.
Not sure if the OP actually said it was used to benefit the city but he did say it helped his party.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I honestly don't think I'd consider blackmailing people evil, just like tearing information out of someone's mind (or making them talk) aren't necessarily evil. Any form of misuse, information brokering aside, could quickly become all kinds of unlawful, but it doesn't strike me as necessarily evil. Wrong doesn't necessarily have to equate to evil. That's what makes this situation so amusing to sort through, I guess. There are valid points for both sides (really more like four different sides) of the issue floating around.
Wow...
That's just horrible.|
|
You have read only the first half of each example? Or you really think that keeping informations so that you can blackmail a city officer for your benefits is a good act? Selling a money transport routine to the bandit a good act?I chose to ignore them because they weren't relevant. That basically confirms exactly what I said earlier...it's what you do with the info that counts.
You seem to be focusing solely on negative things that can be done with information, and thus drawing the conclusion that the OP is doing negative things with info because he has info.
Circular logic. It's evil because it's evil because I say it's evil because it's evil.
I focus on what the OP say he do with the informations:
1) He is not fishing for specific, quest relevant informations, but for any information, so he is not doing a act whose aim is some future good;
2) If they are useful he keep the for himself. Neutral or evil depending on what he do with the informations.
3) Or share them with his party. It don't make his act of gathering informations good as for 1) above. the informations that help his party are a casual by-product of his action of gathering informations, not his aim.
4) If he don't get added value from keeping them or sharing them with his party he sell them to the highest bidder. The only limit is that the sold informations will not harm him in a direct or indirect way. Borderline neutral or outright evil.
I see a lot of neutral to evil acts, nothing good. Add that he do this constantly, often enough that he has to regularly produce wands of the required spells (OP words) and we have plenty of neutral to evil acts done regularly.
Selling a burglar hideout location to the police isn't a good act if you do that only because you will get some money. Especially if you wouldn't give out that hideout location without the reward.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not sure at this point which defensive argument is the most hilarious, but currently, I think the one in the lead might be "real world-supercorporations do it so it can't be evil!"
Yes, of course one can balance the scales by doing Good. but this mostly only works if either:Your bad deeds were unintentional, caused by miscalculations or carelessness. For example- chasing down a very BBEG thru the city you unleash a fireball, forgetting where you are. You destroy some property, fry a beggar. Repairing everything, give him a good burial and alms to his family makes up for a lot (maybe even a Raise dead?). Intent is a lot here. The Op's intent is evil or at least not good.
OR
You repent your previously life of evil and wish to atone. But this includes no longer doing evil. The Op continues the evil acts. If this had been done once as a set piece to get info about some evil skullduggery in the city, it could be forgiven and atoned (not to mention fiendishly clever). But it continues.
OP- you mean your friend Nick doesn't even have access to the internet?!?
I find that you, like many others, are shading things a little in favor of good being the norm and anything else being evil. If I have a habit of giving a few coins to a beggar every time I pass him are you going to argue that I need to shift to a good alignment because what I did was intentionally good? By your reasoning, since what I did was an intentional act of good I would have to balance this with an intentionally evil act to balance the scales. Or are you trying to say that because this act was intentionally good that I am forever doomed with no way to balance the scales? From what I am reading most posters who favor your line of thinking believe that if I am neutral I still have to adhere closely to the good side of things or I will shift to evil. If so what's the point of even having a neutral alignment?
And yes, Nick has no access to the internet.
Asked to my husband. He says: you don't hurt anyone, and give food and money to the poor... You're definitely not evil. You could even be good. But you're definitely not lawful, either. He thinks you're CG.
I am curious how he thinks I am chaotic? I routinely operate inside a system of laws and use them to further my own ends.
Kobold Cleaver wrote:Yeah, but it sounds like this guy is doing this with good--if somewhat self-serving--intentions.
What is the road to Hell paved with?
I never claimed to have good intentions. Just self serving ones.
What I don't understand is why the OP is going through all the trouble. If he describes his character using magic to enhance the taste and quality of his products, then he will have the exact same effect WITHOUT all of the evil stigma or stuck up paladins.
Because in real life I make cupcakes with flour and sugar. When I play Pathfinder I am someone who uses forces that alter the very reality around me. Ask a wizard to make something better than average and of course his go to solution is going to be magic even if it's not absolutely required. I am just role playing him the way he would solve a problem, not the way I would.
Very well since people are resorting to hyperbole I shall give an irrefutable reason as to why he is the moat Evil of evil beings. When he told us about the other information broker who tried to eliminate him he didn't mention the name of his employee who was killed and replaced. In fact I'll bet he doesn't even know their name much less arranged a proper funeral or offered support to his widow and 12 kids.
That assumes an awful lot with zero evidence to support those assumptions.
Dishonesty?Not the whole tricking people into eating your magic roofie pies so they'll divulge important information to you that they otherwise wouldn't have? And that they'll be compelled to come back and have more? That definitely sounds a little mind rapey to me. It's just more subtle than complete domination. It forces you to want to give that information away to begin with. How is forcing someone to want to tell you something not as bad as forcing them to tell you?
Because that reeks of sinister intent to me, regardless what that information is then being used for.
This is a hefty disregard for the free will of your fellow man and I'd chalk that up as definitely being Lawful and with all that personal gain going on, I'd say it dips you into Neutral Evil. And since you skirt the law to make this all happen, I'd say it smack dabs you right in Lawful Evil.
If I used a diplomacy check to get this info I bet you would not say a word about this. Because the word magic is used everyone wants to start equating that with real world drug effects. Ask a carpenter do build something and he will use a hammer and nails. Ask a wizard to do something and he will use magic. Why? Because magic is the tool of his trade. You can't equate that to something in the real world.
This thread has nothing to do with alignment. It's not even a question of morality... The PC is 'charming' innocents for his own personal benefit and selling the secrets he learns for personal gain.These aren't the acts of an honest or good person.
Yes it does and no they are not. Hence the word good does not appear in my alignment. My point all along, people see that I am not good and rule I must be evil. Why does this game even have a neutral alignment if people just want to see everything in black and white?
So many arguments for and against are flying straight past each other because we still don't know how this works. I see people saying "the pastries are just extra delicious" and people saying "he's mind-controlling them with compulsion magic," and I can't even tell which side is right because I read it as a magical compulsion at first, and the OP has never confirmed or rejected either claim. It's very hard to reach a conclusion on what alignment his actions are when we don't even know and properly understand what they do.
I refer you to my earlier answer of the same question.
Addiction might be a strong term. I did say I didn't want people developing an addiction in my OP. It's more of a spell that makes them very desirable not irresistible.
To memorax: Thank you!
Did you miss the part where the OP said it makes them more truthful not more talkative? The 2 spells are 'come back for more' and 'be more truthful', seem to me that someone has be asking question for the 'be more truthful' to be useful.
Not exactly correct sir.
A slightly less benign spell makes the patron a little more chatty (and truthful)than they might want to be.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
@Gallos Thran,
All you are reading is what people think because of what info you have given and what their world views are.
The only opinion that matters is mine yours and your GM on what alignment your character is.
That being said....
"If I used a diplomacy check to get this info I bet you would not say a word about this."
The person your making a dipolmacy check on is aware of what your doing, since its face to face and not a pie roofie. To me that makes a big difference.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If I used a diplomacy check to get this info I bet you would not say a word about this. Because the word magic is used everyone wants to start equating that with real world drug effects. Ask a carpenter do build something and he will use a hammer and nails. Ask a wizard to do something and he will use magic. Why? Because magic is the tool of his trade. You can't equate that to something in the real world.
Diplomacy you just convince the fellow to tell you whats up. They're aware of what your doing and your motives for doing such. You're using magic to alter their very mind to suit your desires. If the spell simply made you more convincing and was cast on yourself then there would be no problems. But as it is, you are altering other people's minds without their knowledge for your own gain.
Of course evil people will always deny that they're evil. It's no wonder the Paladin brought it up because you're doing exactly what a BBEG would do. Use power to instill yourself as an influential person in society. Use said power to maintain said influence by eliminating dissent which you've flat out stated you would do. Further goals while maintaining secrecy and deception. He can't associate with such a dishonorable person who lies to people in the face every day.
|
|
Paladins are plenty able to associate with people that frequently lie. They couldn't work for the church of Abadar otherwise. Their code tells them not to hang around evil unless it's for the greater good; it says nothing about liars. Now uh, I can kind of see the paladin's point in this case, but if the GM is ruling it non-evil then that point does quickly become moot.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This sounds like a player versus player issue, in which one player went to the internet to complain about it.
My personal feeling, it's not evil, it's just kind of pusherish. However, if you want to keep the Paladin happy, throw him some information that'll allow him to bust some evil (like finding an evil cult in town or breaking up a slavery ring). Share the rewards of your forward thinking with the rest of the party.
Paladins are plenty able to associate with people that frequently lie. They couldn't work for the church of Abadar otherwise. Their code tells them not to hang around evil unless it's for the greater good; it says nothing about liars. Now uh, I can kind of see the paladin's point in this case, but if the GM is ruling it non-evil then that point does quickly become moot.
From a character stand point, a Paladin should seriously debate about whether he should be associating himself with such a character from an ethical stand point rather than purely mechanical code speaking.
Should a Paladin hang out with a person who callously uses magic to alter the minds of unsuspecting victims for their own gain when he becomes aware of it? Should a Paladin hang out with someone who is willing to "remove" someone who finds out about their deplorable activities?
A Paladin can't lie. It's not a leap to believe he'd find associating with people who tell lies frequently to the detriment of others to be unacceptable.
So we're back to "it's the Paladin that's the problem", then. Good.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
So we're back to "it's the Paladin that's the problem", then. Good.
I wouldn't say that the Paladin is the problem. Chances are the majority of enemies are evil and they're playing a game that isn't full of moral quandaries. Another player decided he was gonna go full BBEG character and play it off as not being THAT evil and the Paladin player is like "What the hell man?"
If I were any good character at all who valued his own free will I would be pretty upset this is going on.
Replace Paladin with any good aligned person who wants to actively do good and such and it's still a problem. A Paladin just has more to lose from such an association.
|
|
So we're back to "it's the Paladin that's the problem", then. Good.I wouldn't say that the Paladin is the problem. Chances are the majority of enemies are evil and they're playing a game that isn't full of moral quandaries. Another player decided he was gonna go full BBEG character and play it off as not being THAT evil and the Paladin player is like "What the hell man?"
If I were any good character at all who valued his own free will I would be pretty upset this is going on.
Replace Paladin with any good aligned person who wants to actively do good and such and it's still a problem. A Paladin just has more to lose from such an association.
Why exactly would a good character refuse to associate with someone whose misdeeds are, for better or worse, currently working to the benefit of the mission? One must accept the lesser of two evils at times.
|
|
Paladins are plenty able to associate with people that frequently lie. They couldn't work for the church of Abadar otherwise. Their code tells them not to hang around evil unless it's for the greater good; it says nothing about liars. Now uh, I can kind of see the paladin's point in this case, but if the GM is ruling it non-evil then that point does quickly become moot.
Goals
When you worship Abadar, you honor civilization and its blessings. Your goal in life is to help society function smoothly and uplift those people that have none. Your religion demands that you be fair and just, and that you honor any reasonable laws of the society in which you find yourself. If those laws are corrupt, broken, or empty, then your honor depends on fixing them from within, not simply breaking them. Your life is about fullness and wealth, as well as promoting peace, understanding, and trade. You believe in seizing opportunity and creating it for others.
When you see corruption, your most fervent desire is to fix it. Though you do not believe in handouts to the poor, you strive to create a society in which anyone can improve her station through hard work and honorable action.....
Devotion
The worship of Abadar is both functional and theological. It is an excellent everyday faith, for it deals with matters that directly affect your life. Those of shallow faith may voice the right words and offer their praise of society, but may still cut corners and accept bribes—the stronger your faith, the harder time you have feeling any compassion for those who break the rules. The more devoted you are to improving your life and the world around you, the deeper your faith, and if you are willing to suffer small setbacks to ensure that the system works as intended, to forego dishonest gains, and to maintain your faith in the fundamental tenets of commerce and competitive cooperation, you will undoubtedly find favor with the merchant god. Unfortunately, those laypeople who proclaim the merits of Abadar’s worship the loudest— usually those already in positions of power and wealth— are occasionally the most corrupt, and their scandals can sometimes cast a bad light across his honest followers.
I fail to see the part where the follower of Adabar are required to lie frequently. Actually to me it seem the opposite. The requirement is to be honest.
I refer you to my earlier answer of the same question.
Sorry, it's been a long thread and I think I missed that answer. Can you just quickly answer this so that there is no doubt?
The part that makes people talk more and more truthfully seems to be obviously a compulsion [mind-affecting] effect, but is the effect that keeps people coming back...
a) a (mild) magical compulsion?
b) magically delicious?
Why exactly would a good character refuse to associate with someone whose misdeeds are, for better or worse, currently working to the benefit of the mission? One must accept the lesser of two evils at times.So we're back to "it's the Paladin that's the problem", then. Good.I wouldn't say that the Paladin is the problem. Chances are the majority of enemies are evil and they're playing a game that isn't full of moral quandaries. Another player decided he was gonna go full BBEG character and play it off as not being THAT evil and the Paladin player is like "What the hell man?"
If I were any good character at all who valued his own free will I would be pretty upset this is going on.
Replace Paladin with any good aligned person who wants to actively do good and such and it's still a problem. A Paladin just has more to lose from such an association.
This isn't simply a one time thing we're talking here and that while they're adventuring for the greater good he's not being evil.
This is a deliberate, continuous act of evil. A Paladin(Or any sensible good aligned person wouldn't want to associate with this person) cannot associate with such a person. While they're away this subterfuge is still occurring. At the first possible convenience during downtime, and I imagine downtime is quite frequent for such a plan to be fruitful, the Paladin should seek a replacement for the party wizard.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why exactly would a good character refuse to associate with someone whose misdeeds are, for better or worse, currently working to the benefit of the mission? One must accept the lesser of two evils at times.
What mission? So far the OP hasn't cited any mission. The character have plenty of downtime, so I doubt there is some overarching goal to reach. for sure there is no time pressure reach it. Generally a paladin wouldn't team up with a character of dubious morality unless there are compelling reasons.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sir Reginald would find, much to his sorrow, that I wield a considerable amount of influence in Magnimar and the city guards would be happy to escort him right out of town for those kinds of antics.
This quote right here told me far more about his character than the rest of his passage.
|
|
All righty, he's gained political power in a manner similar to how a lot of others in Magnimar have, sans the use of magic to make Jesus flavored pastries. Not quite seeing how this makes him so irrevocably evil that anyone with a good conscience would react with absolute revulsion to him. Sure, they might disagree with his antics, but it doesn't mean "good" people should ignite some holy crusade against he who dareth collect information.
As for the church of Abadar, well, I didn't say a paladin would have to lie to work with them, I said it would have to associate with liars to be connected to some of Abadar's clergy. They've told some pretty good ones in their time.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
All righty, he's gained political power in a manner similar to how a lot of others in Magnimar have, sans the use of magic to make Jesus flavored pastries. Not quite seeing how this makes him so irrevocably evil that anyone with a good conscience would react with absolute revulsion to him. Sure, they might disagree with his antics, but it doesn't mean "good" people should ignite some holy crusade against he who dareth collect information.
As for the church of Abadar, well, I didn't say a paladin would have to lie to work with them, I said it would have to associate with liars to be connected to some of Abadar's clergy. They've told some pretty good ones in their time.
Hes gained power through subtle forceful extraction of knowledge using deceit and magic on unknowing targets for his own gain. Looking at the statistics on Magnimar there aren't a whole lot of people who can pull something like that off.
Also being like, "Hey this guy is making a complete mockery of free will and is altering the minds of the people, I don't really want to associate myself with such a person," isn't igniting holy crusade. It's an "I don't really need to take this guy with us in our holy quest unless theres a really compelling reason otherwise since there are other adventurers out there in the world whom I wouldn't have to look over my shoulder at in worry."
|
|
Let's try for a moment to apply this same logic to people wanting to play paladins with someone that doesn't like paladins. After all, lawful stupid is every bit as disrupting to a campaign as someone's character skirting the line of evil.
Anywho, I'm not talking necessarily about the use of magic. I was saying there are politicians in Magnimar that got to their place by lying, cheating, stealing, and trampling all over the "freedoms" of others like it was their job, and it did indeed become their job after election in some ways. Suffice to say these things are every bit as bad as a small pastry shop dolling out magic pastries that make people more likely to talk. ... Well, at least they aren't in Taldor. Taldor is even worse than Cheliax when it comes to oppressing people.
Let's try for a moment to apply this same logic to people wanting to play paladins with someone that doesn't like paladins. After all, lawful stupid is every bit as disrupting to a campaign as someone's character skirting the line of evil.
Anywho, I'm not talking necessarily about the use of magic. I was saying there are politicians in Magnimar that got to their place by lying, cheating, stealing, and trampling all over the "freedoms" of others like it was their job, and it did indeed become their job after election in some ways. Suffice to say these things are every bit as bad as a small pastry shop dolling out magic pastries that make people more likely to talk. ... Well, at least they aren't in Taldor. Taldor is even worse than Cheliax when it comes to oppressing people.
So what are you saying here? Those politicians are evil too.
|
|
So what are you saying here? Those politicians are evil too.Let's try for a moment to apply this same logic to people wanting to play paladins with someone that doesn't like paladins. After all, lawful stupid is every bit as disrupting to a campaign as someone's character skirting the line of evil.
Anywho, I'm not talking necessarily about the use of magic. I was saying there are politicians in Magnimar that got to their place by lying, cheating, stealing, and trampling all over the "freedoms" of others like it was their job, and it did indeed become their job after election in some ways. Suffice to say these things are every bit as bad as a small pastry shop dolling out magic pastries that make people more likely to talk. ... Well, at least they aren't in Taldor. Taldor is even worse than Cheliax when it comes to oppressing people.
If lying, cheating, stealing, and putting the screws to people you don't even know are outright evil acts then why are most rogue NPCs that do these very things of neutral alignment? It's little details like this that make it more difficult to just go "this action deserves an immediate alignment shift."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If lying, cheating, stealing, and putting the screws to people you don't even know are outright evil acts then why are most rogue NPCs that do these very things of neutral alignment?So what are you saying here? Those politicians are evil too.Let's try for a moment to apply this same logic to people wanting to play paladins with someone that doesn't like paladins. After all, lawful stupid is every bit as disrupting to a campaign as someone's character skirting the line of evil.
Anywho, I'm not talking necessarily about the use of magic. I was saying there are politicians in Magnimar that got to their place by lying, cheating, stealing, and trampling all over the "freedoms" of others like it was their job, and it did indeed become their job after election in some ways. Suffice to say these things are every bit as bad as a small pastry shop dolling out magic pastries that make people more likely to talk. ... Well, at least they aren't in Taldor. Taldor is even worse than Cheliax when it comes to oppressing people.
I'd peg most of those NPCs evil then.
What are you getting at here? Those acts done for personal gain are the poster child of neutral evil.
Never did I mention immediate alignment shift. However this is a deliberate continuous evil act and should probably warrant one. This isn't an immediate shift, its gradual since this is being done long term.
@scavion you say that you can't compare this to diplomacy because the other person knows what you are up to, but that's not necessarily the case. With diplomacy, bluff, a hat of disguise, and glibness you can get MOUNTAINS of information without the person that you are talking to knowing what he's doing or who he's talking to. Using the above you could get all of the information that the OP is getting but you can't possibly say that its evil, its just cunning. But magic is involved and its instant so its evil.
Also being like, "Hey this guy is making a complete mockery of free will and is altering the minds of the people, I don't really want to associate myself with such a person," isn't igniting holy crusade.
Honestly, the Free Will aspect... is basically the chaotic alignment, not the 'good' one. LG people would rather have everyone in the city be LG and toe the line... it's the CG ones who believe variety makes the world go around...
Check the Helm of Alignment thread for peoples opinions of 'a bad guy's free will'.
Here's another point. Compulsion and mind affecting spells are NOT evil. PALADINS actually get a lot of them themselves. I can point at a wizard and do a challenge evil or something similar and 'force' him to attack me or get sickened or something...
Paladins are about protecting someone's GOOD... but not necesarrily their 'PRIDE'... If dude A has been cheating on his wife, and the OP found out about it... it's not in the Paladin's purview to keep that a secret...
Honestly, A 'loose lip cupcake' would be an AMAZING tool for a paladin. Question prisoners, find the plans of the evil keep. All with no torture... no bloodshed... not even any intimidation.
it's a very 'paladin-friendly' way to extract information.
Now if the baker is manipuating and blackmailing and tormenting the innocent folks with his unholy power... WELLLLL that's different. But the spells and the cupcakes are not inherently evil. It's the motivations and plans of the guy using them.
@scavion you say that you can't compare this to diplomacy because the other person knows what you are up to, but that's not necessarily the case. With diplomacy, bluff, a hat of disguise, and glibness you can get MOUNTAINS of information without the person that you are talking to knowing what he's doing or who he's talking to. Using the above you could get all of the information that the OP is getting but you can't possibly say that its evil, its just cunning. But magic is involved and its instant so its evil.
Note that in three of your examples there are deceptions. In fact if you were using a hat of disguise, most interactions thereafter would be deception. Disguising yourself as a Guard Captain and convincing the Guard Commander to give you a copy of the shift schedule would be Diplomacy, but is ultimately an act of deception which is evil in most circumstances. There it depends heavily on what your using that profit for thereafter. Freedom Fighters attempting to smuggle slaves out for instance would be a solid adventure for such acts.
Free Will stuff
Yes yes, Free Will falls under Chaotic. I'm the one who said that in fact in that alignment thread so I'm well aware of that.
However, defending the free will of others would be a pretty solid Good act while selfishly valuing only your own free will, to the detriment of others, would be the Evil parallel.
I never stated the magic use in itself was evil. However the fact remains is that he uses said magic to alter the minds of unknowing victims for his own profit. A Paladin would fall straight up due to the no lying clause in his code as a lie of omission is a lie nonetheless.
Free Will stuffYes yes, Free Will falls under Chaotic. I'm the one who said that in fact in that alignment thread so I'm well aware of that.
However, defending the free will of others would be a pretty solid Good act while selfishly valuing only your own free will, to the detriment of others, would be the Evil parallel.
I never stated the magic use in itself was evil. However the fact remains is that he uses said magic to alter the minds of unknowing victims for his own profit. A Paladin would fall straight up due to the no lying clause in his code as a lie of omission is a lie nonetheless.
Defending a good persons free will... I don't see many paladins championing an evil guys right to chose burning down orphanages...
I mean, we are way off the beaten track here for this thread, but not all 'free will' is created equally.
Saranrae paladins are all about redemption. All people are worthy of redemption. Except Undead... and the Cult of Rovagug. Free will or not, you sign up with them and He'll kill ya.
As for lies of omission?? That's a case by case scenario. Whether the cupcakes have slight glamour to make them delicious... or a unique blend of chocalate and cinnamon.... if someone asks 'Why are these so delicious??' It'd be legit to say 'Secret ingredient. can't tell you!'
Being a Paladin doesn't mean you can't keep secrets, it just means you can't lie about them. Heck, the chocalate and the frosting are more dangerous to a person than the spells are... He's not going to defend the public from every unhealthy food or tavern in the city...
Spy network is grayer... but the tasty food is fine.
So deception is evil? So casting invisible or any illusion spell is evil now... That is just... A different opinion.
Selling the information knowing that it will/could cause evil actions I think we all agree is evil.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
G%! d+@n it, no, deception is not evil itself. Just like fire isn't. But deceptively drugging random people (even if it's a light drug) on a large scale in order to gain and keep political power and blackmail people, that's evil.
If someone says fireballing peasants is evil, the answer isn't "oh so now fire is evil?!? every cook is an antipaladin?!??!"
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
G&% d!+n it, no, deception is not evil itself. Just like fire isn't. But deceptively drugging random people (even if it's a light drug) on a large scale in order to gain and keep political power and blackmail people, that's evil.
If someone says fireballing peasants is evil, the answer isn't "oh so now fire is evil?!? every cook is an antipaladin?!??!"
It's really frustrating when people make ridiculous claims with no basis.
Indeed. Deception within itself is not evil, but what said Deception is used for, which I stated in my post which it seems like some folks aren't even reading.
Disguising yourself as a Guard Captain and convincing the Guard Commander to give you a copy of the shift schedule would be Diplomacy, but is ultimately an act of deception which is evil in most circumstances. There it depends heavily on what your using that profit for thereafter. Freedom Fighters attempting to smuggle slaves out for instance would be a solid ^Good^ adventure for such acts.
Basically the OP is systematically altering the minds of the unknowing to maintain political power and blackmail others for profit. He goes on further to state he'd have someone removed if they voiced concerns about his business(Sir Reginald).
This is solid BBEG material right here. The Paladin should start searching for a Wizard replacement as his own ethical standards should encourage him not to keep company with people like the Wizard.
|
|
@scavion you say that you can't compare this to diplomacy because the other person knows what you are up to, but that's not necessarily the case. With diplomacy, bluff, a hat of disguise, and glibness you can get MOUNTAINS of information without the person that you are talking to knowing what he's doing or who he's talking to. Using the above you could get all of the information that the OP is getting but you can't possibly say that its evil, its just cunning. But magic is involved and its instant so its evil.
Gathering informations through the use of mundane means and selling them to the best offer, regardless of the consequences, or using them for blackmail is evil. The OP simply add the use of magic as a compelling force to that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Forgive me if this has been answered already, but which spells are you placing into your food?
PS: Has your GM weighed in with an opinion yet? He is the final and most important opinion here.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
These pastries are not roofies. A drug or spell that lowers your inhibition and makes you more chatty =/= one that makes you lose consciousness.