
Tholomyes |

The way I did it when I made superheroes/villains as Gestalts was Vivisectionist Alchemist/Bard. Without gestalt, it's hard to argue a multiclass, so it really comes down to what you want out of the class. I'd probably go Bard above alchemist, but alchemist can fit stuff like his joker venom, and other such things.

Tholomyes |

Great ideas guys, any feats or spells really stand out to you?
The big one that I'd recommend is Hideous Laughter. It's a 1st level spell for the bard (which is a good bargain, as it's a second level spell for other classes, and it's generally regarded as a good one, even at that), and it has a very Jokeresque feel.

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Actually, Investigator from the new batch suits him because:
He is very enthusiastic about poison.
He is not much of a fighter except when he studies his opponent for a vital strike (see his 'pencil trick')
His knowledge skills are through the roof. Even when he fails a check he makes the check. A high level Investigator automatically passes any skill check he attempts, the Joker should too.
Because this is PF, superheroes need spells, mostly, for power reasons. Having a lot of alchemy does this. A little short on illusions for him though.
The major sticking point is charisma. Yu would have to give him non-standard stat points, because the Joker's Cha is 26+, easily.
Gestalting him with Bard gives him illusions and more Cha abuse. That seems to get his flavour right.
EDIT: As Claxon says below, Antipaladin makes sense. If you don't worry about the combat abilities but the Cha, you can make him never fail a save again which is only right.
BTW, I think Batman is some sort of broken high-stat Champion of Irori/Alchemist monstrosity.

Doomed Hero |

I'm not sure why people seem to think Superheroes need to be super-high level with super-high attributes.
I can't think of anything that the Joker does in any comic book that couldn't be done by a particularly skilled normal person. In fact, that's his entire premise. He doesn't have any powers. He isn't "the best" at anything. He's just creative, smart and insane.
You could build the Joker as a 5th level Alchemist or Bard.
A good way to do it might be to keep his level low, but make him a Gestalt Alchemist/Rogue or Alchemist/Bard.
In my head Harley is a Thief Acrobat/Titan Mauler. :)

zauriel56 |
Which joker are we talking about because each has a different focus. Dark Knight Joker by heath ledger? Batman by Jack Nicholson? Joker of the comics? Joker of ONE of the cartoon series? While very similar there are slight differences. Compare Heath Ledger and Jack Nicholson as the Joker. One is a clown reveling in death, while the other considers himself an agent of chaos, where death is a by product of his actions that he doesn't have a problem with but doesn't quite "revel" in death. This is just one man's opinion.
If you are looking at commonalities, I would say he's got a decent intelligence at least, but where he excels at is predicting how others will react, which would be a very high sense motive basically.
Physically he's nothing special but one of the cartoon versions and in some comics I believe he is wields a large mallet, and can deal decent damage with it so maybe a strength of 13 to use power attack with?
Now he doesn't fall into the stereotypical standard of bard but look at some of the archetypes. The archaeologist's luck might be you're best option but I haven't looked at all of them to know for sure. The gnome archetype prankster seems to have several good ideas for the Joker but it is a GNOME archetype. Don't know how much like a gnome you consider the Joker. I personally don't like bard for the joker but I do see some of its appeal. The problem is that it is a charisma based caster and the Joker doesn't come across as charismatic to me. The only one who seems to admire him is harley quinn (who is also insane).
I prefer the idea of either an alchemist or an investigator.
The tricky thing is using point buy for abilities.
For a base I would go
Str- 13
Dex- 12
Con- 12
Int- 14
Wis- 16
Cha- 8
plus w/e racial bonuses for the race you choose. Probably a bonus to int is what I would give him or maybe dexterity.

Tragic Missile |

I picture the Joker falling into the rogue category more than alchemy.
True, the joker uses explosives on many occasions, but the explosives he uses are a far cry from the explosives of your average PF alchemist.
I see a rogue build focusing on sleight of hand, poison, and trap making with his major abilities focusing on Charisma, Intelligence Wisdom and Dexterity.
Despite Heath Ledger's quote, "Do I really look like a guy with a plan?", the Joker's primary strength is that he ALWAYS has a plan. Let's face it, in a one-on-one battle with nearly any even-leveled PC, the Joker would be toast.
That's where the henchmen, tricks and traps come into play. In the grand scheme I would say don't worry so much about his numbers, stats or class. Worry about designing the adventures first, then worry about his stats.
Let's face it though, if there is one thing players absolutely HATE, it's an enemy who escapes over and over again, and unfortunately, that is one of the Joker's specialties.
Oh man, but picture it, the players are at some gala event or grand ball. The host of the event stops everyone for a toast and champagne is handed out by the waitstaff (The joker's own men, of course). After the toast, the crowd finds that their champagne was dosed with <i>hideous laughter</i> or a modified <i>hold person</i> that gives the crowd that sinister joker smile. During the ensuing ruckus, the joker comes out and gives his monologue (thanks to the spell of course), and then kills someone in cold blood with an equally sinister flair. Maybe he shoots a hand crossbow that merely pops out a "twang" flag, only to pull out a dagger and brutally stab the person to death.

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I am going to have to disagree about the Cha dump Zauriel. I may only know one or two types of Jokers from various incarnations, but all of them scream Cha to me.
In general I am even more sure of Bard. You can make just about any type of Joker with the class. He can fascinate, manipulate, confuse, etc. Its all there with Bard.

Bruunwald |

I'm not sure why people seem to think Superheroes need to be super-high level with super-high attributes.
Probably because that is the milieu in which Pathfinder characters swim. You could stat him up as an Expert/Commoner, but the game encourages otherwise. (Dragons he might have to face someday, and what-not.)
Note that ANY character in the game with a level in a PC class is a superhero, comparatively. So why not just go all the way? The character has to level up as the player plays, anyway, right?

Renegadeshepherd |
It's not possible. The joker is a character that has been changed and reinvisioned too many times. There is the genius, the bomb maker, the insane, his cohort Harley Quinn, and more. No character in pathfinder is going to be able to mechanically match all that and still be functional. If u choose or limit an aspect of the guy u can make work and be cool but the joker is essentially the pinnacle of what a mad genius could be and is beyond our confines.
Having said all that... A combination of mysterious stranger and alchemist is what I c him as in terms of battle. The skills could match up pretty well too and he would have a lot of them honestly. Joker was not very strong or hardy so i wouldn't go higher than a 10 on those and I'd go at LEAST 14 on charisma, dex, and INT.

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I'm not sure why people seem to think Superheroes need to be super-high level with super-high attributes.
Because Pathfinder characters need feats in order to be competent at things, and superheroes tend to be omni-talented at things. As for ability scores, most (powered) superheroes tend to have abilities that far exceed what even high-level Pathfinder heroes are capable of attaining.
Using the Carrying Capacity table, Spider-Man's strength (rated at 10 tons by Marvel, although this seems to have increased by an unspecified amount over the years) is at minimum STR 50. And he only on the lower-middle tier when it comes to strength levels in Marvel...the top tier starts at around 100 tons with guys like Thor and the Hulk (approximately STR 65 or so). If you want to throw DC into the mix, it gets even more ridiculously inflated, as Superman's been know to have his strength measured in QUINTILLIONS of tons from time to time (I'm not even going to bother trying to calcuate out that one, it's beyond the reach of the Pathfinder system to model in any meaningful way).

Ishpumalibu |
I don't think it matters which version of the joker you go with, dark knight or otherwise. The differences are r.p. differences, not build differences. It really comes down to, he always is able to gather information, followers, and has a way of hiding his plans. Chaos is his law, and he's great with alchemy and manipulation.

Sauce987654321 |

Doomed Hero wrote:I'm not sure why people seem to think Superheroes need to be super-high level with super-high attributes.Because Pathfinder characters need feats in order to be competent at things, and superheroes tend to be omni-talented at things. As for ability scores, most (powered) superheroes tend to have abilities that far exceed what even high-level Pathfinder heroes are capable of attaining.
Using the Carrying Capacity table, Spider-Man's strength (rated at 10 tons by Marvel, although this seems to have increased by an unspecified amount over the years) is at minimum STR 50. And he only on the lower-middle tier when it comes to strength levels in Marvel...the top tier starts at around 100 tons with guys like Thor and the Hulk (approximately STR 65 or so). If you want to throw DC into the mix, it gets even more ridiculously inflated, as Superman's been know to have his strength measured in QUINTILLIONS of tons from time to time (I'm not even going to bother trying to calcuate out that one, it's beyond the reach of the Pathfinder system to model in any meaningful way).
It's really easy to get over 100 tons in carrying capacity using mythic rules. Use Display of Strength and Mules Strength. That's it.