Couldn't you take total defense then run up to a t-rex pre-nerf? Wasn't it fight defensively or take total defense?.
Couldn't you take total defense then run up to a t-rex pre-nerf? Wasn't it fight defensively or take total defense?.
Fighting Defensively requires you to attack in order to use it, similar to a Defending Weapon. You can't allocate the enhancement bonus on an defending weapon unless you attack with it, and you can't fight defensively unless you attack first.
So in the case of running up and attacking, you aren't fighting defensively until you make the attack roll; at which point you are already inside the reach of creatures like the T-Rex and they got to make an AoO or readied action before you entered fighting defensively.
Fighting Defensively must be activated each round, so if on one round you are fighting defensively and attack, you get the AC bonus. If on the next round you have to draw a potion (a move action) and then drink it (a standard action) you are not attacking this round, meaning you don't benefit from fighting defensively, and consequently, the Crane Style chain.
Flight is a powerful ability, but it can be controlled with simple methods like ceilings.
Crane Wing can be controlled by attacking more than once.
Crane Wing can be controlled by attacking more than once.
Or more people, or ranged attacks, or reach weapons, or readied actions.
Lowering the ceiling a bit seems a lot easier than redesigning encounters to include multiple attacks, ranged attacks, and reach weapons.
If we stick to the seemingly iconic single T-Rex fight none of those solutions control the original Crane Wing very well whereas having the T-Rex inside a cavern with a 15-25 foot high ceiling does a pretty good job against flight. Ceilings don't require the DM to select different monsters or smarter tactics. A very dense forest or jungle canopy also might suffice in a lot of cases.
Obviously there are a lot of things which can go wrong with single monster encounters as well as melee only encounters, and I suppose it is fair to point out that Crane Wing was only one of them. Anyhow, I still think the new Crane Wing would be pretty good if you could use the +4 AC bonus reactively upon being hit kind of like the Ride check from Mounted Combat. Heck, maybe a later feat could let you do it twice.
Lowering the ceiling a bit seems a lot easier than redesigning encounters to include multiple attacks, ranged attacks, and reach weapons.
You really only need multiple attacks, ranged attacks, OR reach weapons. And, no, it's actually about the same level of difficulty (which is about none really).
If you think a make a small change like that is difficult, then I'm seriously doubting crane wing is the problem.
Why is the Rex in a cave that small?
Because reasons.
To be fair, he also offered the canopy of forests/jungles as limiters on flight as well.
I can't understand why people seem to feel like they need to defend Crane Wing at all costs, and they probably can't understand why I seem to feel like I need to defend ceilings at all costs. I guess I just like ceilings. Apparently many designers do to. In fact, many dungeons already have ceilings, so it often isn't even a change.
Though appearances might suggest the contrary, I wasn't a frothing anti-Crane lunatic before the FAQ. In fact, I was planning to take it with at least one upcoming PC. I probably still will since it fits my PC well anyhow, and I think the DM will find the new version less disruptive. Seeing Crane Wing restored to its former glory would benefit my PC and wouldn't drive me completely nuts or anything. It just seems like a smaller fix could provide a perfectly usable feat for those who want it without annoying those who don't quite as much.
If you could use it reactively I wonder if the new Crane Wing be a worse feat than Snake Sidewind? Dodge? Kirin Strike? Vital Strike? Monkey Moves? Childlike? As is I'd expect people might find it a little frustrating since they might get the feeling that they "always pick the wrong attack". If only there could be some compromise perhaps we'd end up with a feat both the lovers and the haters can agree is "OK" (perhaps unlike some of those feats)
@TriOmegaZero - If your T-Rex is too big for the cave feel free to raise the roof. I guess they're Gargantuan rather than Huge, so maybe 20-40' feet would be good. I'm not sure if a real T-Rex could reach up 40 feet without jumping, but the RAW T-Rex shouldn't have a problem.
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Why can we nerf a feat into oblivion to make one monster happy but can't make a feat usable to make one class happy
I personally consider offering up a greater variety of choice in playstyles to the players is more important than making a single boss type monster who is really only in more trouble than usual in the most simplistic and "you were asking to get wrecked from the start, GM" scenario. But I dunno, maybe giving GM's one more option is more important than giving martials more than one option.
So it's been three months since the debacle. I don't think the Devs are revisiting it like they mentioned.
So it's been three months since the debacle. I don't think the Devs are revisiting it like they mentioned.
Thats sad. Poor Pierre's highest character is worthless now, and 3 of his 4 other PFS characters lie dead from the last few games:( He died a lot, three games in a row!
So it's been three months since the debacle. I don't think the Devs are revisiting it like they mentioned.
Maybe eventually they will realize that you can't just wait out internet hate.
Internet hate never sleeps.
Internet hate never dies.
Furthermore, internet hate outlasts valid criticism so the argument is going to just get more aggravating to watch as things go on.
So it's been three months since the debacle. I don't think the Devs are revisiting it like they mentioned.
I can not decide myself about what I woudl like more, they spending time trying fix to the failed fix to crane wing, or they fixing the myriads of casters broken things.
Frankly I don't have a problem with casters in Pathfinder. It may be due to my coming from a 3.x Core, but casters have already been nerfed so much in Pathfinder coming from 3.5 that they don't bother me anymore.
However, I would like more nice stuff for non-casters. There just isn't enough nice stuff for them. And it seems like anytime we get something that's pretty nice for martials (especially for characters who are already ailing) then Paizo comes along and is like "Oops, our bad, melee can't have nice things, see design rule #1".
Thats sad. Poor Pierre's highest character is worthless now
That's really hard to believe, and is really sad if true - but it's not sad because of the change.
Since it was the only thing that made a single weapon melee character work, then yes it is totally believable.Thats sad. Poor Pierre's highest character is worthless nowThat's really hard to believe, and is really sad if true - but it's not sad because of the change.
... if that's what you believe, that's also sad.
Sorry, moving on, good luck with your grieving.
Frankly I don't have a problem with casters in Pathfinder. It may be due to my coming from a 3.x Core, but casters have already been nerfed so much in Pathfinder coming from 3.5 that they don't bother me anymore.
However, I would like more nice stuff for non-casters. There just isn't enough nice stuff for them. And it seems like anytime we get something that's pretty nice for martials (especially for characters who are already ailing) then Paizo comes along and is like "Oops, our bad, melee can't have nice things, see design rule #1".
In what way were casters nerfed? Other than Conjuration (Grease, Glitterdust, Blink, etc), what nerfs do you see for casters?
Since it was the only thing that made a single weapon melee character work, then yes it is totally believable.Thats sad. Poor Pierre's highest character is worthless nowThat's really hard to believe, and is really sad if true - but it's not sad because of the change.... if that's what you believe, that's also sad.
Sorry, moving on, good luck with your grieving.
Well, I told him to rebuild but he said he doesn't even have enough PA to rebuild him. Basically it was an extremely defensive team defense build using Crane and Archon Diversion. He just doesn't have the HP's to take hits like that, and crane was the corner stone of the build. I think they should have at least given him a feat/archetype rebuild since the character looses a good chunk of its functioning.
The worst for him is 3 of his 4 other PC's have gotten greazed in the last three games, so he's just running out of PFS characters, and his highest level one is a dud. He's a fun player to have at our tables and I just feel bad for him.
Consequently, the one character I have it on is my Zen Archer, and while I do not agree with the change the feat line is still good enough FOR HIM that I am not trading it out.
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I'll say it again, if a deflecting a single melee attack per round is that much of a trouble, I seriously question the GM's competence.
"Oh no! My Vital Striking T-Rex is useless! If only I could use something else for the encounter..."
¬¬'
And to whoever mentioned ceilings, as being able to "block" flight, notice that to evade the PCs melee attack, all he needs is to hover 10~15ft in the air.
Besides, if "existence of a low ceiling", a specific encounter condition, is a valid counter to anything, then so is "attacking twice", which can be done by pretty much every creature in the f#!@ing game.
Because of the stupidly restrictive boundaries imposed to PFS GMs, the whole game suffers by removing options from martial characters, the ones who need versatility the most.
CW wasn't just nerfed... It was beaten, crippled, castrated and burned alive until it became a completely useless lump of shame.
Paizo dropped the ball really hard on this one. It's really uncanny how a company that makes such great books can publish such awful erratas...
In what way were casters nerfed? Other than Conjuration (Grease, Glitterdust, Blink, etc), what nerfs do you see for casters?Frankly I don't have a problem with casters in Pathfinder. It may be due to my coming from a 3.x Core, but casters have already been nerfed so much in Pathfinder coming from 3.5 that they don't bother me anymore.
However, I would like more nice stuff for non-casters. There just isn't enough nice stuff for them. And it seems like anytime we get something that's pretty nice for martials (especially for characters who are already ailing) then Paizo comes along and is like "Oops, our bad, melee can't have nice things, see design rule #1".
SoS spells (no real SAVE RO JUST DIE spells)...
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SoS spells (no real SAVE RO JUST DIE spells)...
Allow me to introduce you to something.
See also phantasmal killer.
SoS spells (no real SAVE RO JUST DIE spells)...Allow me to introduce you to something.
See also phantasmal killer.
Both are more than one save.
Please, TOZ... PK has two different saves. If you really want to point out absurdly powerful spells, try something like Maze.
Do you have SR? No? Too bad... You're out of the game for 10min. Hopefully your allies won't need you during that time...
(That said, while Suffocation isn't that bad, Mass Suffocation is stupidly OP)
Please, TOZ... PK has two different saves.And I've seen it kill people. It IS a, quote: 'real save or die'.
Yeah... Throw it at someone who only has a good will save, but is not Wisdom-based (or a Paladin), and you have a damn good chance or landing it. And Rogues, as usual, are an easy target.
It' a SoD, of course, but it's probably the least dangerous one.
I'll say it again, if a deflecting a single melee attack per round is that much of a trouble, I seriously question the GM's competence.
"Oh no! My Vital Striking T-Rex is useless! If only I could use something else for the encounter..."
¬¬'
I am ok With Pc having strong defenses agaisnt a particular attack, but when you can not use a encounter anymore because it woudl just be a trivial cave walk then something went wrong.
It can't be stated enough, if your encounter involves a single monster that possesses a single attack in a round, it doesn't matter if the party has Crane Wing or not, it's a bad f+##ing encounter and you should feel ashamed of yourself for even thinking of it.
In such an encounter, the enemy is attacking once, and then he's done. The party, in return, is either attacking three times (divine, skill, martial) and casting a spell (arcane), or attacking twice (skill, martial) and casting two spells (divine, arcane).
Your encounter lasts 2 rounds at best and the monster might have made two attacks in those rounds.
@TOZ, there are few truly good save or die options for casters, unlike in 3.5 where it was save or die instead of save or lose. In Pathfinder, the Save or Die spells, mostly, got nerfed downed to save or take massive damage (finger of death, disintegrate etc), while there remains only a few save or die (phantom killer, suffocation, flesh to stone).
Suffocations real power is not the save or die aspect, it's the '3 save or reduced to 0 hp' part. It's the single best damaging option in the game, next to Mass Suffocation, because it will reduce a 10,000 hp monster to 0 hp if he fails any one of those 3 saves.
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I am ok With Pc having strong defenses agaisnt a particular attack, but when you can not use a encounter anymore because it woudl just be a trivial cave walk then something went wrong.
I guess weapons, shields, BAB and class feature should be removed, then. Because of those things, I can't use my "single unarmed commoner encounter" anymore.
Tels nailed it:
It can't be stated enough, if your encounter involves a single monster that possesses a single attack in a round, it doesn't matter if the party has Crane Wing or not, it's a bad f**&ing encounter and you should feel ashamed of yourself for even thinking of it.
In such an encounter, the enemy is attacking once, and then he's done. The party, in return, is either attacking three times (divine, skill, martial) and casting a spell (arcane), or attacking twice (skill, martial) and casting two spells (divine, arcane).
Your encounter lasts 2 rounds at best and the monster might have made two attacks in those rounds.
There is no way around it, Nicos. A single enemy will always be a pathetic encounter. If all it has is a single attack, it's even more pitiful. CW or not.
EDIT: Funny anecdote: Just yesterday my group fought two T-Rex at the same time. No players has CW (or any other AC-boosting feat, for that matter).
Can you guess how many rounds the creatures lasted?
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Indeed, if CW needs to go, then all spells above lvl 3, and half of the lvl 2 spells need to go.I'll say it again, if a deflecting a single melee attack per round is that much of a trouble, I seriously question the GM's competence.
"Oh no! My Vital Striking T-Rex is useless! If only I could use something else for the encounter..."
¬¬'
And to whoever mentioned ceilings, as being able to "block" flight, notice that to evade the PCs melee attack, all he needs is to hover 10~15ft in the air.
Besides, if "existence of a low ceiling", a specific encounter condition, is a valid counter to anything, then so is "attacking twice", which can be done by pretty much every creature in the f@~~ing game.
Because of the stupidly restrictive boundaries imposed to PFS GMs, the whole game suffers by removing options from martial characters, the ones who need versatility the most.
CW wasn't just nerfed... It was beaten, crippled, castrated and burned alive until it became a completely useless lump of shame.
Paizo dropped the ball really hard on this one. It's really uncanny how a company that makes such great books can publish such awful erratas...
Yeah, most second & third level spells vastly out class the pre-obliterated Crane Wing. I really question the encounter design capabilities of those that had major issues with Crane Wing. My only problem was Master of Many styles made Crane Wing too easy to acquire.
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Yeah, most second & third level spells vastly out class the pre-obliterated Crane Wing. I really question the encounter design capabilities of those that had major issues with Crane Wing. My only problem was Master of Many styles made Crane Wing too easy to acquire.Indeed, if CW needs to go, then all spells above lvl 3, and half of the lvl 2 spells need to go.I'll say it again, if a deflecting a single melee attack per round is that much of a trouble, I seriously question the GM's competence.
"Oh no! My Vital Striking T-Rex is useless! If only I could use something else for the encounter..."
¬¬'
And to whoever mentioned ceilings, as being able to "block" flight, notice that to evade the PCs melee attack, all he needs is to hover 10~15ft in the air.
Besides, if "existence of a low ceiling", a specific encounter condition, is a valid counter to anything, then so is "attacking twice", which can be done by pretty much every creature in the f@~~ing game.
Because of the stupidly restrictive boundaries imposed to PFS GMs, the whole game suffers by removing options from martial characters, the ones who need versatility the most.
CW wasn't just nerfed... It was beaten, crippled, castrated and burned alive until it became a completely useless lump of shame.
Paizo dropped the ball really hard on this one. It's really uncanny how a company that makes such great books can publish such awful erratas...
Reading the complaints against CW fromf players and GMs makes me think those same players and GMs would be TPK'd by a couple Stryx with crossbows.
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My only problem was Master of Many styles made Crane Wing too easy to acquire.
This is the real problem that the design team should have fixed. Certain classes (MoMS, Unarmed Fighter) give early access to some of the style feats which allows them to have Crane Wing at first or second level. This is what made Crane Wing 'too powerful' because people were dipping the classes for Crane Wing and using it from 2nd level onward, where it's the most powerful. The feat is designed to be used at around 5th level when nearly all enemies have multiple attacks.
Early access is what made Crane Wing a problem, not Crane Wing itself. That would be true of nearly any ability in the game.
Think about it this way, if you could take a single level of an otherwise lackluster arcane class (theoretical class) that lets you fire 10th level fireballs out of your 1st level spell slots, would you?
So in this scenario, this 1st level guy is shooting 10d6 fireballs and just murdering every encounter possible because nothing can take ~30 points of damage at first level and survive. Logically, the only answer is to nerf fireball because fireball is OP right?
Or is it the archetype?
The problem is, the design team took the easy way out. MoMS is the real problem with Crane Wing, but it's easier to nerf Crane Wing than it is to fix MoMS. Not only is it a difficult aspect to balance, but changing one of the most popular monk archetypes is going to make the Monk crowd angry again.
Funnily enough, Crane Wing is seen as a staple of Monks as it is, so the Monk crowd was already angry. However, it's also seen as an excellent option for anyone who wields one weapon (Magi, Duelists, Swashbucklers, Bards etc), so they got angry too.
Instead of doing what was right, they did what was easy, now they've got themselves a Voldemort.
Reading the complaints against CW fromf players and GMs makes me think those same players and GMs would be TPK'd by a couple Stryx with crossbows.Yeah, most second & third level spells vastly out class the pre-obliterated Crane Wing. I really question the encounter design capabilities of those that had major issues with Crane Wing. My only problem was Master of Many styles made Crane Wing too easy to acquire.Indeed, if CW needs to go, then all spells above lvl 3, and half of the lvl 2 spells need to go.I'll say it again, if a deflecting a single melee attack per round is that much of a trouble, I seriously question the GM's competence.
"Oh no! My Vital Striking T-Rex is useless! If only I could use something else for the encounter..."
¬¬'
And to whoever mentioned ceilings, as being able to "block" flight, notice that to evade the PCs melee attack, all he needs is to hover 10~15ft in the air.
Besides, if "existence of a low ceiling", a specific encounter condition, is a valid counter to anything, then so is "attacking twice", which can be done by pretty much every creature in the f@~~ing game.
Because of the stupidly restrictive boundaries imposed to PFS GMs, the whole game suffers by removing options from martial characters, the ones who need versatility the most.
CW wasn't just nerfed... It was beaten, crippled, castrated and burned alive until it became a completely useless lump of shame.
Paizo dropped the ball really hard on this one. It's really uncanny how a company that makes such great books can publish such awful erratas...
Those same players and GMs would probably be TPK'd by a guy with a scroll of Summon Swarm.
Lowering the ceiling a bit seems a lot easier than redesigning encounters to include multiple attacks, ranged attacks, and reach weapons.You really only need multiple attacks, ranged attacks, OR reach weapons. And, no, it's actually about the same level of difficulty (which is about none really).
If you think a make a small change like that is difficult, then I'm seriously doubting crane wing is the problem.
Two headed half-ettin half-T-Rex!! Whoo!
I find the T-Rex isn't really an encounter but more of dangerous environment. I like to through a T-Rex charging through an encounter and since it is a equal opportunity carnivore it attacks who ever happens to be in it's plotted path be they the PCs or the bad guys.
So a monk with Crane Wing (pre nerf) could defend against it. The T-Rex might take a snap at the monk only to deflected then move on to easier pickings. Once satisfied it leaves the area. I don't see this any different that any other character that has a feat, spell, or class feature that deal with environment.
I've had Crane wing in my games and never had a problem with it. Sure there was some encounters that Monk did really good with but that is to be expected. I don't complain about Two Handed Fighter one shotting the bad guy due to focused high damage and this I see far more of than Crane Style.
As well I've used Crane Style against the party. It made single BBEG actually able to survive a couple more rounds.