Advice on best armour for high dex characters


Advice

Grand Lodge

I have a character with 20 dex and its only going to get better (my bet would be 22 mid term and 24-26) but I DO want to wear some armour. What is your recommendation for the best armour? Mithral chain shirt?


Celestial Armor, nothing else is even close.

Before that, yeah mithril chain until you can afford one.


Ok, there are a number of armors that can benefit you. However, it depends on class, so here me out:

Mithral kikko armor: no ACP, max of +6 on dex, a good +5 armor

Silken ceremonial armor/haramaki: +1 armor, no ACP, max dex or arcane spellcasting problems.

Celestial armor: best ofr 75% of builds. Max of +8 on dex, only -2 acp (so you still have to be proficient). Great for rangers, magus, etc.

Celestial fullplate: arguably better than celestial armor, it has a max of +6 on dex, -3 ACP. If you have armor training (as the fighter class feature) you can easily get up to +10 max dex, and no ACP.

There are other notable combos (armor expert trait + mithral breastplate) but they arent much better than what has been presented here.

Sczarni

To simplify: the best Armor for you will be the one that affords the greatest protection while allowing the highest max DEX.

Mithral armours increase the max DEX of the base suit by +2, and treat the armour as a category lighter (except light armour remains light), and doesn't grant proficiency.

Find the armour that you are proficient with that grants the best AC and whose Max DEX is 2 lower than your current DEX mod. Get that Armor in Mithral. That is the best suit for you right now.

Celestial Armor has other qualities that make it awesome.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

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Catskin Leather is specially enchanted Leather that has no max Dex, so it can surpass even Celestial if you get super Dex.

Unfortunately it sacrifices itself to save you from death, halving the damage of a would-be mortal blow. And in this game, losing gear is a fate worse than death.


Whisperknives wrote:

Celestial Armor, nothing else is even close.

Before that, yeah mithril chain until you can afford one.

This.

If your DM allows 3.5 stuff (pathfinder is supposed to be backwards compatible and all) add the nimbleness enhancement from Magic Item Compendium for another +1 max dex/-2 ACP. And Twilight enhancement if you're a caster (-10% arcane spell failure).


my current favorite (and cheaper)...

Tabard of Mage Armor

Continous spell effect (spell lvl 1 x caster lvl 1 x 2000gp = 2000gp)

Always on mage armor. +4ac that also works vs incorporeal. And it can be argued that since it has an always on Armor class bonus, you can apply armor enchants to the effect. especially the skill enchants that no longer count towards the +10 limit. targeted dispell will suppress the effect but not dispel it since its a permanent effect.


james knowles wrote:
Whisperknives wrote:

Celestial Armor, nothing else is even close.

Before that, yeah mithril chain until you can afford one.

This.

If your DM allows 3.5 stuff (pathfinder is supposed to be backwards compatible and all) add the nimbleness enhancement from Magic Item Compendium for another +1 max dex/-2 ACP. And Twilight enhancement if you're a caster (-10% arcane spell failure).

if youre going full 3.5 on it, you can also tack on feycraft (which is a weapon mod, not an enchant) as well as twilight for ever better ASF reduction.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Haramaki/Silken Ceremonial (3 gp/30 gp) - +1 armor, no max. Dex,
Darkleaf Cloth Leather (760 gp) - +2 armor, +8 max. Dex
Darkleaf Cloth or Mithral Parade (775 gp or 1025 gp) - +3 armor, +7 max. Dex
Darkleaf Cloth Studded Leather (775 gp) - +3 armor, +7 max. Dex
Mithral Chain Shirt (1100 gp) - +4 armor, +6 max. Dex
Mithral Do-maru or Breastplate (4200 gp or 4030 gp) - +5 armor, +6 max. Dex
Mithral Agile Breastplate, Breastplate, Lamellar, or Mountain Pattern (4400 gp, 4200 gp, 4150 gp, or 4250 gp) - +6 armor, +5 max. Dex

celestial armor (22,400 gp) - +6 armor (plus an extra +3 enhancement for +9), +8 max. Dex


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
TheShadowVoid wrote:

my current favorite (and cheaper)...

Tabard of Mage Armor

Continous spell effect (spell lvl 1 x caster lvl 1 x 2000gp = 2000gp)

Always on mage armor. +4ac that also works vs incorporeal. And it can be argued that since it has an always on Armor class bonus, you can apply armor enchants to the effect. especially the skill enchants that no longer count towards the +10 limit. targeted dispell will suppress the effect but not dispel it since its a permanent effect.

No. And definitely no.

Core Rulebook wrote:

Magic Item Gold Piece Values

Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide.

(emphasis mine)

Continuous armor protection based on mage armor (force effect) is exactly the same as bracers of armor. Therefore pricing is exactly the same as bracers of armor, including the addition of armor abilities.


Adding an Armored Kilt to any set of armor that has no ACP should in theory provide +1 AC with no penalty for +20g. The only caveat is that the Kilt will also have to be made of mithril if you want higher than a +6 dex bonus. (Total 1,020g)

wrote:
When you add an armored kilt to a suit of light armor, the set counts as medium armor. Likewise, a kilt and medium armor counts as heavy armor. Adding an armored kilt to heavy armor has no effect.
wrote:
Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he is not proficient takes the armor's (and/or shield's) armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all Dex- and Str-based ability and skill checks.


I had an Alchemist who took a Dex boosting mutagen and wore padded armor +5. I'm sure some of the more exotic armors might have better numbers, but padded armor has the virtue of being available in nearly any game. People are also usually kind of surprised to see it in use.

Sczarni

The problem with the catskin leather and celestial is outside of GM fiat, specific armors with enhancement bonuses may not be upgraded (ie PFS). Thus those have an ending curve of usefulness.


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darkleaf studded, with mitheral studs for props !

Dark Archive

I went through looking at the Eastern Heavy armours: the Tatami-do (1000gp) is a +7 armour with +3 maximum dex and -6 ACP, so if you have exactly +3 dex (so, maybe the occasional fighter before armour training kicks in, or a paladin who rolled well) then it's slightly cheaper than Full Plate to get a full +10 to AC from Dex and Armour. This will only last until you can fork out the 9,000 to mithralise your full plate, but that may be quite some time.

Naturally, if you have enough dex that you're looking at making the Tatami-do mithral, Celestial is an extra 6,000 for two more points of armour, super high max dex and the ability to fly 1/day. Super bargain.

Also, for those wishing some cheap light armour, Darkleaf should be able to be applied to Lamellar leather, making it a few hundred gold cheaper than a mithral shirt, for the same benefit to anyone with less than a +6 to dex. The entry calls out leather, studded leather and hide specifically, but then says "(although other types of armor made of leather or hide might be possible)". I find darkleaf cloth lamellar leather to be perfectly reasonable, but your mileage may vary. Check with your GM, but don't cry too hard - the chain shirt is not much more, and a mithral breastplate will not be far off.


Don't bother with ANY armour.

Spend your ENTIRE armour budget on Scrolls and Potions of Mage Armor. That has a long duration, easily enough for wizard to cast before suspected combat or just drink the potion in an emergency. It still ends up way way WAY cheaper than expensive Darkleaf nonsense or rules breaking tabard of Mage Armour. Regular scroll of Mage Armour can last all day with the right CL and extend rod, with NO dex limits, NO armour check penalty, NO spell failure and as an added benefit you aren't so screwed against incorporeal creatures. Hell, you can far far more effectively bluff as an "innocent civilian" as you aren't apparently wearing any armour at all.

So don't discourage Wizard from casting Cat's Grace on you, it'll vastly increase your capability and you can use it, you won't immediately hit dex-limits.

If you wear any armour at all, have it be a Harimaki with Spell Storing. Spell storing is FANTASTIC, it is such an effective way of getting Wizards spells out in a cooperative way rather than Wizard simply doing it all by himself. Harimaki has no dex limits, 0% spell failure chance and minuscule weight.

As a general rule I discourage trying to use AC as the main mechanic to avoid being hit. Use ranged weapons, reach weapons, spring attack or cover and creative use of positioning to not even allow them a chance to hit you. Or use stealth. If you try to make your AC high and just bash bash bash then GM will find a way to either nerf you (entangle, trip) or have enemies with high enough bonuses that will nullify your armour. Because you made a game you cannot win, the GM will be happy with you out thinking him, he won't be happy with you trying to out-stat him.

Probably the best item I can suggest is a Potion Sipping Jacket and get a CL4+Nethys Dagger potion of Vanish. Being able to disappear in the critical moment when your turn ends is way better protection.

THE FOLLOWING CARP IN SPOILER BOX I WROTE AFTER MIS READING THE OP:

If you're around Dex18 I'd suggest any Fighter archetype where the "armor training" is preserved

Level 1: Chain Shirt for +4 armour bonus to AC, you're also immediately hitting the dex limits of your armour

Level 2: Get buckler for +1 shield bonus, also Neck Guard. Also through Lv1 and Lv2 look for an Armoured Kilt but don't put it on yet. I'd suggest going for a buckler with the Spellsink property sooner rather than later, it depends on a rather low Will save of the caster to work so if it's viable at all it's viable at the lower levels. It will give you some protection from spells that otherwise don't have a save such as Frigid Touch.

Level 3: as soon as you level up, put on Armoured Kilt. This will technically make the Chain Shirt count as medium armour but Armour Training means you can wear medium armour without speed penalty. Look for Agile Breastplate and wear it without Kilt. I suggest spell storing armour as it's a very affordable way to allow wizard to get their touch spells.

Level 4: Try to find a boost to natural armour, you can't max out dex any more as armour is the limiting factor. Don't bother with enhancement bonuses to Shield, instead acquire Potions of Shield (if GM allows) to give a +4 shield bonus if you really need that.

Level 5: Now would be a good time to get a Jingasa of Fortunate soldier, protects from those nasty crits and I think it's the only source of a +1 luck bonus

Level 6: Now would be a good time to get an enhancement bonus to your breastplate. Even after Spell Storing it's going to cost you 3k but that's still way more practical than trying to go for any actual Heavy Armour

Level 7: as soon as you level up, put on your Armoured Kilt and start looking for a means to boost your Dex Score as Armour Training means you can wear heavy armour without speed penalty, and kilt on Medium armour = heavy armour. Also, there is a total of +2 increase to maximum dex bonus to the armour you wear so you can go to Dex20

Homebrew:
My sessions allow 3 traits at start and an extra trait every subsequent level. No limitations on what category of traits. But standard rules like if it is described as a trait bonus it doesn't stack with other trait bonuses for the same stat. I did this largely because traits are so hideously under-used, people look at the huge list once at level 1 then forget them forever. Technically this isn't even homebrew as the rules say GM can allow any number of traits.

If your GM also allows this then for a front-line fighter I recommend you consider:
Lv1 = Called (reroll Nat-1), Second Chance (reroll failed saves), Inspired (1/day x2 roll initiative)
Lv2 = Threatening Defender
Lv3 = Accelerated Drinker
Lv4 = Threatening Defender #2
Lv5 = Defender of Society (+1 armor bonus in medium/heavy armor)
Lv6 = Fate's Favoured (+1 greater luck bonuses, synergy with Jingasa)
Lv7 = Defensive Strategist (Never flat footed in surprise round)
Lv8 = Threatening Defender #3

I recommend this as it means every time you level up, even if in the middle of a dungeon with no new supplies, it has an immediate impact on your AC. Either from a trait, or Armour Training allowing you to put kilt on without penalty.

The accelerated drinker is there at level 3 to synergise with how Wizards often take Brew Potion at that level, they can then more easily use a Potion Of Shield as a move action if they really need the extra AC.

Threatening defender keeps up with Combat Expertise so you can pretty much constantly use it without penalty. I am of the opinion that Dodge is not good enough to be worth it as a feat, this I find a more interesting alternative.

With what I suggest, you're going to start off with AC18, which for CR1 goons means they're going to hit you about 25% of attempts to hit you. Then every level you will gain +2AC. Though with typical CR, most enemies are going to keep up with this hit rate, so your AC is a safety feature for when you screw up, you cannot depend on it as getting hit 25% of the time finishes you too quickly, you need to be good at the game of zoning. If it's in a wide open area, party mage needs to be zoning with stuff like Fog Cloud and Grease.

I do run VERY challenging campaigns, from level 3 I'm throwing 16+ guys with +8 to hit and armed with GreatAxes. These guys are switch-hitters as well, they lob Javelins with the Opening Volley feat to charge with a +14 to hit.

Dark Archive

That's... not necessarily better. Potions will quickly add up to more than a cheap armour, and it's ridiculously easy to get armour that will give you more than +4 AC while still allowing quite a lot of dex.

more detail if you don't believe me:

A potion of MA costs 50gp and lasts 1 hour (and takes a standard action to drink). Which means you have to either drink it preemptively every time you think there *might* be a combat in the next hour (wasting 50gp every time you're wrong), waste your first action in combat drinking a potion rather than killing something, or go through the combat without any armour bonus.

A +1 darkleaf cloth lamellar armour gives you +5 armour for 1810gp. The cost of 36 potions of MA. Pathfinder I believe expects something like 19 level appropriate encounters *per level*. Which means your MA budget will not only be giving you less bonus (and risking not giving you any bonus at all!) but will rapidly become *more* expensive (in as little as two levels). Not to mention giving up the possibility of special enchantments.

If you have highly fluctuating dexterity (alchemist/investigator/urban rager barbarian using bows for some reason) which will often go above the maximum allowed by your armour, then the only penalty is that you don't get that bonus dex to your AC. Most of the time the extra armour will more than make up for that. +2 Mithril Kikko costs a tick over 8k, but will give you up to +13 to your AC (7 armour, 6 max dex, no ACP, counts as light for movement). MA would save you a significant amount of money (depending on how much of it you blow on Dex belts or spamming cat's grace at 300gp per encounter) but you need 28 dex to reach the same AC (4 Armour, +9 dex). Similar equations exist for other, cheaper armours. How high are you really getting your dexterity at low levels? A dex mutagen could get you there I suppose (20 base, 4 belt, 4 alchemical, 2 from leveling = 30 at level 8) but that's an extreme example, and would still eventually do better with a +4 haramaki, if you still care about tweaking an extra 1-2 AC out of your dex.

Once you can afford Celestial Armour then the argument is over. You would need a dex score in the mid 30's to break even. Scaling costs (and cheap armour enhancements) mean that armour will always win out in the long term over upping your AC in other ways.

If your dex is actually high enough, early enough (level 2 alchemist/urban rager I guess?), that expensive armours and special materials aren't an option yet, then sure MA is a suitable short term plan - especially if you can get a wand of it. But for the most part? It won't beat out relatively cheap armour enhancement.

You want to use non-armour ways of not getting hit? Great. But don't expect them to negate your AC. Cover is great, but if the wizard summons something on top of you then it's useless. 10ft reach just means the enemy takes a 5ft step before full attacking. Longer reach will give you a single attack of opportunity as they move in and smack you. Firing from range will not stop them from firing right back at you. It's a very rare encounter when you get to shoot at your enemies from so far away (or with such favourable terrain conditions) that they can't cover the distance in a single turn - charge, double move, or run if absolutely necessary. As long as they can end their turn adjacent to you, you have one turn to take them down before your AC suddenly becomes... painfully relevant. And spring attack takes 3 feats, limits you to one attack per round, risks provoking AoO's, and only works if you have someone with a high AC to hide behind. Effects like mirror image or blur can be great, but are temporary, cost money, and can be dispelled or bypassed. Armour is there for you from the moment you put it on in the morning to when you take it off to sleep at night. If you don't sleep in it. Use as many other methods of not getting hit as you can find, but don't forget to wear decent armour while doing so.


Short of the oft mentioned Celestial Armor my next and much more frequent choice for my highly dexterous characters were Bracers of Armor. They are seemingly never mentioned which makes me curious why so in PF vs 3.5 and earlier editions.

Liberty's Edge

Don't overthink it. Just use a mithral chain shirt and upgrade it as you level.

Mithral chain shirt is fine for your whole career. It gets up to a +9 armor bonus (+1 over bracers of armor) and has a max dex of +6 (only 1-2 lower than your estimated final dex). This means, at worst, you end up 1 point of AC behind bracers of armor but get +5 of bonus equivalents in exchange (e.g. fortification). While reaching that final goal you are easily ahead on AC for almost no extra cost (1100gp for the base item granting +4 AC, which costs 16000gp via bracers).

*IF* the DM is feeling generous you can *eventually* find celestial armor and perhaps upgrade it for a final AC of +3 higher than what mithral chain gets you, but this is entirely up to DM fiat. According to the rules it would max out at +8 AC (1 less than mithral chain) with no bonus equivalents (though it does get fly 1/day). This armor is a fine stretch goal, but not so much better that you need to claw after it. Your AC should be fine without it.

Liberty's Edge

StabbittyDoom wrote:
*IF* the DM is feeling generous you can *eventually* find celestial armor and perhaps upgrade it for a final AC of +3 higher than what mithral chain gets you, but this is entirely up to DM fiat. According to the rules it would max out at +8 AC (1 less than mithral chain) with no bonus equivalents (though it does get fly 1/day). This armor is a fine stretch goal, but not so much better that you need to claw after it. Your AC should be fine without it.

Wait, what? Celestial Armor is +9 AC base (same as a maxed out Mithral Chain Shirt) and +8 max Dex. It's flatly better. Much better if you can further enchant it, which you likely can.

And this assumes the GM isn't willing to let you buy it, which seems perfectly reasonable for high level people to do to me.

Dark Archive

Personally, I just forget they exist, but this is helped by the fact that they're not actually very good. Celestial Armour gives you +9 armour, plus up to another +8 for dex. The bracers only go up to +5 before you need to change to special abilities, which means you break even at 34 dex (minus the ability to fly, but without a -2ACP).

Now, say you are a goblin alchemist with 38 dex at level 12 (extreme, expensive, but not impossible). You are missing 2 points of AC from the maxed out dex-to-AC of the armour, but no other penalties. At level 12 AC is becoming less useful, but say you still care enough to do something about it. Or you are sick of the ACP. Whatever. You can still do better than the bracers of armour.

The harakami gives you +1 AC, with no arcane spell failure, and no ACP. Unless you are a monk, there is literally no penalty for wearing this 3gp armour. Enhancing it will cost exactly the same as the bracers of armour (plus 153gp) and there are fewer limitations of what can be placed on them (brawling, for example). Plus they both weigh only 1 pound. They do literally everything that the bracers of armour do, but for 153gp give you 1 extra point of armour. Oh, and the bracers can only go up to +8 equivalent, rather than +10.

As far as I can see, if you have access to eastern armours the only reason to wear the bracers of armour instead is if you are a monk.

Liberty's Edge

Deadmanwalking wrote:
StabbittyDoom wrote:
*IF* the DM is feeling generous you can *eventually* find celestial armor and perhaps upgrade it for a final AC of +3 higher than what mithral chain gets you, but this is entirely up to DM fiat. According to the rules it would max out at +8 AC (1 less than mithral chain) with no bonus equivalents (though it does get fly 1/day). This armor is a fine stretch goal, but not so much better that you need to claw after it. Your AC should be fine without it.

Wait, what? Celestial Armor is +9 AC base (same as a maxed out Mithral Chain Shirt) and +8 max Dex. It's flatly better. Much better if you can further enchant it, which you likely can.

And this assumes the GM isn't willing to let you buy it, which seems perfectly reasonable for high level people to do to me.

Ah, my bad. My eyes moved up a row when scanning the armors table, I guess.

That said, it's still a specific armor with a cost high enough that it's unreasonable to attain it before around 11th or so level, and also above the base value of almost all cities (even Absalom is only slightly higher) making it difficult to find one for sale. Being a specific armor, any modifications to it whatsoever are custom magic items that are therefor subject to DM approval. Granted, it's probably not hard to get approval in this case.

Still, best to stick with the mithral chain shirt to start. If you get lucky then upgrade to celestial and push it to +5, but it's not something to sweat over. Bracers of armor are a non-option in this case since they're more expensive and worse in all ways except weight and incorporeal foes until very high level, and even then they only come to about break even. They're mostly for those that can't use armor at all (e.g. monks).


Dragonchess Player wrote:

Haramaki/Silken Ceremonial (3 gp/30 gp) - +1 armor, no max. Dex,

Darkleaf Cloth Leather (760 gp) - +2 armor, +8 max. Dex
Darkleaf Cloth or Mithral Parade (775 gp or 1025 gp) - +3 armor, +7 max. Dex
Darkleaf Cloth Studded Leather (775 gp) - +3 armor, +7 max. Dex
Mithral Chain Shirt (1100 gp) - +4 armor, +6 max. Dex
Mithral Do-maru or Breastplate (4200 gp or 4030 gp) - +5 armor, +6 max. Dex
Mithral Agile Breastplate, Breastplate, Lamellar, or Mountain Pattern (4400 gp, 4200 gp, 4150 gp, or 4250 gp) - +6 armor, +5 max. Dex

celestial armor (22,400 gp) - +6 armor (plus an extra +3 enhancement for +9), +8 max. Dex

So the mithral medium armor is probably good until you start getting the really magical stuff.

Of course, you can get mithral/darkleaf light armor is good too, since it start with a lower price (meaning you can just buy it and upgrade it for a long time, not having to worry about switching armors a lot), and adds more to touch ac in return for slightly lower AC overall.

Haramaki is more for high level play wehn you have really well enhanced dex. As in +11 mod (so 32 dex).

Obviously you buy celestial when you can. Because duh.


Librain wrote:
The bracers only go up to +5 before you need to change to special abilities, which means you break even at 34 dex (minus the ability to fly, but without a -2ACP).

Actually Bracers of Armor can be enchanted up to a +8 AC. There is no +5 limit.

Dark Archive

Gisher wrote:
Actually Bracers of Armor can be enchanted up to a +8 AC. There is no +5 limit.

Huh. Just double checked and you are correct. In that case the +7 bracers of armor will give you slightly more AC than the +5 harakami. If you are pumping your AC as high as humanly possible, the bracers will get you slightly higher. Although at 24k gp for +1 AC, or 39k gp for +2 AC, it's still a very tough sell. I'd get just about any other form of AC first (short of Wishing for higher Dex). Or, I'd stop worrying about AC and get light fortification or deathless or something.

And of course this is only for those planning to hit ridiculously high Dexterity. A mithral chain shirt will cover 90% of high dex characters adequately, and Celestial Armour (or Celestial Full Plate for those who can wear medium and are not planning to pass 22 dex) will probably do even better.

Liberty's Edge

Force Ward word of power from a 20th level caster = +11 armor bonus, no dex limit

Grand Lodge

Gisher wrote:
Librain wrote:
The bracers only go up to +5 before you need to change to special abilities, which means you break even at 34 dex (minus the ability to fly, but without a -2ACP).
Actually Bracers of Armor can be enchanted up to a +8 AC. There is no +5 limit.

But it does have the +8 enhancement bonus max limit, and the no other enhancement rule, so no slippery or shadowy or ....

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