Barachiel Shina wrote: That makes no sense.
So it is possible for me with Musket Master to load EARLY two-handed firearms as a free action. (Using Rapid Reload and alchemical cartridges). It is possible for me to load EARLY one-handed firearms as a free action.
But it is not possible for me to reload ADVANCED firearms as a free action, not even with Rapid Reload?
Yes.
That's how it's written.
It's easy enough to house-rule around and there's no real reason not to do so. PFS isn't an issue, since you won't have advanced firearms in PFS anyway, right?
You can try to concoct some wacky explanation why the rules don't actually say what they say, but you might as well just house rule it.
My assumption is that Rapid Reload (or the change to it for firearms) wasn't written with advanced guns in mind, so that's what I'd fix.
Clearly a house rule to have Rapid Reload allow free action reloads on advanced firearms is in order but I just don't understand why this thing is nearing 100 FAQ requests and Paizo won't answer this. But then they go ahead and answer something minor two days ago on their FAQ about Tiger Claws and Dragon Style. They are getting as bad as WotC on fixing big rulings like this.
Both early and advanced firearms were introduced in the same book so it wouldn't make sense that the change to Rapid Reload which reflects how it affects firearms wouldn't take advanced firearms into account since they were all simultaneously introduced in Ultimate Combat. But, with absolutely no other input, the way the rules read now, it ends up being a free action to reload all advanced firearms as default, since Metal Cartridges are Alchemical Cartridges and Alchemical Cartridges reduce reload time by one step. So Reloading a 1-h or 2-h advanced firearm is a Move action and the cartridges always bring that down to a Free action by default without even the need for Rapid Reload or Musket Master. And I feel that is fundamentally incorrect.
Same book, but with Advanced firearms as an optional system that may not have been considered when modifying Rapid Reload for the main assumption of early firearms.
thejeff wrote: Same book, but with Advanced firearms as an optional system that may not have been considered when modifying Rapid Reload for the main assumption of early firearms. Regardless, it doesn't change the issue with metal cartridges. Is the change already taken into account and we don't need to alter it from a move action, or is it not taken into account and we do need to alter it from a move action? The default position we get is that it is not taken into account based on what the rules say. Alchemical cartridges reduce the reload time of a firearm by one step (Full-round>standard>move>free). No where does it state we do not apply this shift when using metal cartridges (which are alchemical cartridges), therefore we use the standard, default rules which yield an end-result that all advanced firearms reload as free actions even without additional feats/abilities. The other logical alternative is that the reload step is baked in which means that it really isn't a move action to reload an advanced firearm; it just ends up being a move action taking metal cartridges into account. If that's the case, then Rapid Reload works, at least for advanced 1-h firearms, and Musket Master + Rapid Reload also works for advanced 2-h firearms.
Barachiel Shina wrote: Clearly a house rule to have Rapid Reload allow free action reloads on advanced firearms is in order but I just don't understand why this thing is nearing 100 FAQ requests and Paizo won't answer this. But then they go ahead and answer something minor two days ago on their FAQ about Tiger Claws and Dragon Style. They are getting as bad as WotC on fixing big rulings like this. To be fair to the design team, the minor thing was a consequence of a much more prominent FAQ they ruled on recently. That one was definitely not minor, as it was the second-to-most requested FAQ in the queue. Reloading advanced firearms is comparatively small, and if they didn't address the fallout right away then it'd probably never get addressed.
Also, advanced firearms have enough advantages that I don't really mind having to use a move action on occasion. But it's easy enough to house rule either way, and I'm down with that.
I don't think there's any reason to assume that the load times for advanced firearms were written to never be actually used. Since you have to use metal cartridges with them, it makes no sense at all for them to publish a reload time which could never be used.
As written, reloading any advanced firearm to capacity using metal cartridges is a move action.
It also makes little sense to me to stick an intermediate step in there where it's really some other, undefined, action which can be set to a different type of action (standard for two-handed or move for one-handed (or two-handed used by a musket master)) (And would that be to capacity or for a single shot?). Then to always reduce that imaginary intermediate step to a free action.
Bah. That's what I meant by "You can try to concoct some wacky explanation why the rules don't actually say what they say".
You're not using it in PFS. House rule it so it works the way you want it to.
The whole design way of advanced firearms is so freakishly flawed, it looks more like a 3rd party collection of "firearms to use on your homebrew"
"Here have this items, you know... you should not use them, actually OUR campaign setting doesnt use it. But use it on your homebrew, if you want... but we will not give it any suppoort k?"
If the advanced firearm loading time rules are taking reduced time from metal cartridges into account, then reload time for an advanced two-handed firearm should be a Standard Action, not a Move Action.
Barachiel Shina wrote: If the advanced firearm loading time rules are taking reduced time from metal cartridges into account, then reload time for an advanced two-handed firearm should be a Standard Action, not a Move Action. Since you always use a metal cartridge, the difference is moot. It's a move action to reload an advanced firearm, one-handed or two-handed.
blahpers wrote: Barachiel Shina wrote: If the advanced firearm loading time rules are taking reduced time from metal cartridges into account, then reload time for an advanced two-handed firearm should be a Standard Action, not a Move Action. Since you always use a metal cartridge, the difference is moot. It's a move action to reload an advanced firearm, one-handed or two-handed. Then reloading a one-handed advanced firearm should be a free action.
Nothing is explaining the two step reduction for two-handed firearms and the one step reduction for one-handed firearms.
There is no reduction. It's just a move action.
Barachiel Shina wrote: blahpers wrote: Barachiel Shina wrote: If the advanced firearm loading time rules are taking reduced time from metal cartridges into account, then reload time for an advanced two-handed firearm should be a Standard Action, not a Move Action. Since you always use a metal cartridge, the difference is moot. It's a move action to reload an advanced firearm, one-handed or two-handed. Then reloading a one-handed advanced firearm should be a free action.
Nothing is explaining the two step reduction for two-handed firearms and the one step reduction for one-handed firearms. It's not a reduction. It's a rule.
srd wrote: It is a move action to load a one-handed or two-handed advanced firearm to its full capacity. It's even more of a reduction for some weapons, since you reload not one shot, but to capacity.
You're inventing an intermediate stage from which it is reduced. That's just how it works. Reloading any advanced firearm to full capacity with metal cartridges is a move action.
If you don't like it, house rule it. It's an optional thing anyway.
How is the firearm "advanced" in any way if the reload times are SLOWER than that of an early firearm? And what I mean by slow is, there is no way to reduce it to a free action?
What would Lightning Reload do? Would it allow someone to reload an advanced firearm to full capacity once per turn as a free action? It doesn't state that it works on chamber-loaded firearms, only barrel-loaded ones.
Man advanced firearms suck. Stuck with a slow reload just to shoot five range increments as a touch AC. Lame. People would rather stick to early firearms, which makes no sense on reloading faster than advanced.
Barachiel Shina wrote: How is the firearm "advanced" in any way if the reload times are SLOWER than that of an early firearm? And what I mean by slow is, there is no way to reduce it to a free action?
What would Lightning Reload do? Would it allow someone to reload an advanced firearm to full capacity once per turn as a free action? It doesn't state that it works on chamber-loaded firearms, only barrel-loaded ones.
Man advanced firearms suck. Stuck with a slow reload just to shoot five range increments as a touch AC. Lame. People would rather stick to early firearms, which makes no sense on reloading faster than advanced.
5 range increments as touch isn't anything to sneeze at. With the larger capacities for some, they're also faster to shoot until you do invest in Rapid Reload.
But mostly, they're a hacked on optional system that they recommend against using. Most likely it's an oversight that Rapid Reload doesn't work properly with them.
So just house rule it to work and everything's fine. Unless you're an absolute stickler for RAW, in which case you're screwed. Unless you're an absolute stickler for RAW but you're willing to accept baroque explanations for why it really works the way you want it to, in which case, go for it.
Barachiel Shina wrote: How is the firearm "advanced" in any way if the reload times are SLOWER than that of an early firearm? And what I mean by slow is, there is no way to reduce it to a free action?
What would Lightning Reload do? Would it allow someone to reload an advanced firearm to full capacity once per turn as a free action? It doesn't state that it works on chamber-loaded firearms, only barrel-loaded ones.
Man advanced firearms suck. Stuck with a slow reload just to shoot five range increments as a touch AC. Lame. People would rather stick to early firearms, which makes no sense on reloading faster than advanced.
"...just to shoot five range increments as a touch AC. Lame."
"...just to shoot five range increments as a touch AC. Lame."
"...just to shoot five range increments as a touch AC. Lame."
I think it's been mentioned already but metal cartridges are listed separately from alchemical cartridges. They reference alchemical cartridges but nothing in their description says they reduce load time.
Don't most advanced firearms not need to be reloaded every round anyway? Is Reloading a revolver putting in one bullet, or is it refilling all the slots in the cylinder?
blahpers wrote: Barachiel Shina wrote: How is the firearm "advanced" in any way if the reload times are SLOWER than that of an early firearm? And what I mean by slow is, there is no way to reduce it to a free action?
What would Lightning Reload do? Would it allow someone to reload an advanced firearm to full capacity once per turn as a free action? It doesn't state that it works on chamber-loaded firearms, only barrel-loaded ones.
Man advanced firearms suck. Stuck with a slow reload just to shoot five range increments as a touch AC. Lame. People would rather stick to early firearms, which makes no sense on reloading faster than advanced.
"...just to shoot five range increments as a touch AC. Lame."
"...just to shoot five range increments as a touch AC. Lame."
"...just to shoot five range increments as a touch AC. Lame." If he doesn't want them, I'll take them for my crossbow! :P
blahpers wrote: Barachiel Shina wrote: How is the firearm "advanced" in any way if the reload times are SLOWER than that of an early firearm? And what I mean by slow is, there is no way to reduce it to a free action?
What would Lightning Reload do? Would it allow someone to reload an advanced firearm to full capacity once per turn as a free action? It doesn't state that it works on chamber-loaded firearms, only barrel-loaded ones.
Man advanced firearms suck. Stuck with a slow reload just to shoot five range increments as a touch AC. Lame. People would rather stick to early firearms, which makes no sense on reloading faster than advanced.
"...just to shoot five range increments as a touch AC. Lame."
"...just to shoot five range increments as a touch AC. Lame."
"...just to shoot five range increments as a touch AC. Lame." What I meant is it is lame to only make ONE shot at up to 5 range increments when you can just use Deadeye with an early firearm to shoot and load as free actions. Yeah Deadeye uses a grit point, so take a couple of Signature Deed feats and you're good with that.
The Golux wrote: Don't most advanced firearms not need to be reloaded every round anyway? Is Reloading a revolver putting in one bullet, or is it refilling all the slots in the cylinder? It's a Move Action to refill ALL the slots in the cylinder.
MY problem is I have player with a Gunslinger who uses a Rifle. His character has sentimental attachment to the rifle, naming it "Skarlet", and doesn't plan on giving it up for a Pepperbox Rifle. What he wants is to be effective at higher levels with it, meaning he wants to be able to reload it as a free action.
Problem is the rules for advanced firearm reload times is all screwed up, no one knows what exactly is what, no one knows if Rapid Reload is legit, etc. He doesn't want to go Musket weapon and then Musket Master, he wants the rifle partially to avoid Musket Master archetype.
Barachiel Shina wrote: blahpers wrote: Barachiel Shina wrote: How is the firearm "advanced" in any way if the reload times are SLOWER than that of an early firearm? And what I mean by slow is, there is no way to reduce it to a free action?
What would Lightning Reload do? Would it allow someone to reload an advanced firearm to full capacity once per turn as a free action? It doesn't state that it works on chamber-loaded firearms, only barrel-loaded ones.
Man advanced firearms suck. Stuck with a slow reload just to shoot five range increments as a touch AC. Lame. People would rather stick to early firearms, which makes no sense on reloading faster than advanced.
"...just to shoot five range increments as a touch AC. Lame."
"...just to shoot five range increments as a touch AC. Lame."
"...just to shoot five range increments as a touch AC. Lame." What I meant is it is lame to only make ONE shot at up to 5 range increments when you can just use Deadeye with an early firearm to shoot and load as free actions. Yeah Deadeye uses a grit point, so take a couple of Signature Deed feats and you're good with that. So use a revolver or a pepperbox rifle to get 6 or 4 shots without reloading.
Then use a move action to reload completely next turn.
Or just house rule it, like everyone else does.
Barachiel Shina wrote: The Golux wrote: Don't most advanced firearms not need to be reloaded every round anyway? Is Reloading a revolver putting in one bullet, or is it refilling all the slots in the cylinder? It's a Move Action to refill ALL the slots in the cylinder.
MY problem is I have player with a Gunslinger who uses a Rifle. His character has sentimental attachment to the rifle, naming it "Skarlet", and doesn't plan on giving it up for a Pepperbox Rifle. What he wants is to be effective at higher levels with it, meaning he wants to be able to reload it as a free action.
Problem is the rules for advanced firearm reload times is all screwed up, no one knows what exactly is what, no one knows if Rapid Reload is legit, etc. He doesn't want to go Musket weapon and then Musket Master, he wants the rifle partially to avoid Musket Master archetype. Do you want him to reload it as a free action?
If you do, house rule it. Or torture the rules until you convince yourself it's RAW. Whatever works for you. It's your game.
You're already using the non-standard advanced firearms anyway. Make them work.
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote: I think it's been mentioned already but metal cartridges are listed separately from alchemical cartridges. They reference alchemical cartridges but nothing in their description says they reduce load time. PRD wrote: Metal Cartridge: These sturdier versions of alchemical cartridges serve as the ammunition for advanced firearms. They can hold either bullets or pellets. They reference alchemical cartridges because they are alchemical cartridges. So they didn't need to separately list in their description that they reduce reload time because it's already documented under alchemical cartridges; no need to waste space spelling it out twice. The only reason they are listed separately is to prevent people from thinking you can use them with early firearms.
Or they seperated them because they dont follow the same reduce loadtimes as the others. Since early firearms cant use them and the cartridges reduce load time BUT advance firearms can ONLY use the metal ones and the loadtime is already spelled out? That way people wouldnt confuse thinking the reduce loadtimes effected the advance and be spelt out what the metal did?
Redneckdevil wrote: Or they seperated them because they dont follow the same reduce loadtimes as the others. Since early firearms cant use them and the cartridges reduce load time BUT advance firearms can ONLY use the metal ones and the loadtime is already spelled out? That way people wouldnt confuse thinking the reduce loadtimes effected the advance and be spelt out what the metal did? If that was the case, then it failed spectacularly.
original post is from: August 18th 2011 @ 5:06am
we are 3 years 2 months 24 days & 22 hours since then.
THERE IS STILL NO ANSWER!!!
I get that the numerous team members of Paizo are very busy, but lets be serious...
In total there are about 109 FAQ requests on just these 2 threads
Aparentely you need 300+ faq request to be even be considered for a faq
ElementalXX wrote: Aparentely you need 300+ faq request to be even be considered for a faq fair enough considering the tens of thousands that play pathfinder. In that case, could more please FAQ the first post of this thread?
Thanks!
Necro because there's still no answer to this as far as I can tell.
Ya, after reading threads for an hour, I would really like a FAQ ruling on this.
Why do people need a FAQ on this? the prd is clear:
"Advanced Firearms: Advanced firearms are chamber-loaded. It is a move action to load a one-handed or two-handed advanced firearm to its full capacity."
So a revolver has a capacity of 6. You load all six chambers as a move action. A free action if you have rapid reload!
BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG........ BANG! (deadpool style)
:)
Purple Dragon Knight wrote: Why do people need a FAQ on this? the prd is clear:
"Advanced Firearms: Advanced firearms are chamber-loaded. It is a move action to load a one-handed or two-handed advanced firearm to its full capacity."
So a revolver has a capacity of 6. You load all six chambers as a move action. A free action if you have rapid reload!
BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG........ BANG! (deadpool style)
:)
Because that's not what rapid reload does. Rapid reload explicitly makes reloading a one-handed firearm a move action.
It doesn't reduce the time one step.
I see. Then you need a new feat called "Rapid Advanced Firearms Reload". The existing Rapid Reload feat applies to the default game setting which is emerging guns / early firearms.
Without such a new feat, modern games should thus be limited to move action reload.
But you know what? starting a combat with a revolver in each hand (12 chambers loaded) should be enough to satisfy most people at low levels, as you have several rounds' worth of shooting available. High level shooters just need to duck behind a car and reload their guns once in a while.
I mean, a double-shot from a double-barreled shotgun, with the vital strike feat, would be a 8d8 damage. I say it's enough of an incentive to steer modern users away from becoming better at "speed reloading" in favor of becoming better/more precise shooters (i.e. vital strike)
I mean, by the gods!! 16d8 with Greater Vital Strike! who cares about reloading as a move action!
(that's crazy enough to warrant the Improved Critical feat so you can do this on a 19-20)
(oh yeah, and it's Touch AC within 5 range increments, meaning 100 feet for the shotgun... and that's with an untrained commoner shooting it... cause shotguns are simple weapons in "guns everywhere" scenario... heck, if you're playing in a modern setting, I'd even give wizards or clerics the Vital Strike feat so they can shoot the double-barreled shotgun with additional spell buffs... Eldritch Knight should get you BAB prereqs pretty fast so you can reach Greater Vital Strike ASAP...)
Purple Dragon Knight wrote: I mean, a double-shot from a double-barreled shotgun, with the vital strike feat, would be a 8d8 damage. I say it's enough of an incentive to steer modern users away from becoming better at "speed reloading" in favor of becoming better/more precise shooters (i.e. vital strike)
I mean, by the gods!! 16d8 with Greater Vital Strike! who cares about reloading as a move action!
(that's crazy enough to warrant the Improved Critical feat so you can do this on a 19-20)
(oh yeah, and it's Touch AC within 5 range increments, meaning 100 feet for the shotgun... and that's with an untrained commoner shooting it... cause shotguns are simple weapons in "guns everywhere" scenario... heck, if you're playing in a modern setting, I'd even give wizards or clerics the Vital Strike feat so they can shoot the double-barreled shotgun with additional spell buffs... Eldritch Knight should get you BAB prereqs pretty fast so you can reach Greater Vital Strike ASAP...)
As opposed to 5 attacks at 4d8 + Dex + magic + any other static bonuses.
The vital strike chain isn't bad for gunslingers, but it's far from optimal.
Use a double-barreled musket with cartridges and rapid reload and you'll be doing much more damage. Though the range increment for touch does hurt.
yes... 5 attacks at 4d8 which apparently are not possible right now due to modern weapon always requiring a move action to reload... so I'll take one attack at 16d8 if I'm planning to stat out a modern shotgun guy.
Yes, double-barreled musket with rapid reload is better *only* if you use alchemical cartridges (which are a semi magical thingy not available in modern day guns 'cause they all use metal cartridges...)
I mean, it's fascinating how they've managed to balance the game and prevent abuse from modern guns into the pathfinder setting entirely with the creation of these little metal cartridges... me likes! :)
Modern guy ends up in Golarion with machine gun, runs out of ammo, and can no longer upset the setting with his shennanigans! ;)
Modern guy retrains to learn Rapid Reload... :)
Purple Dragon Knight wrote: yes... 5 attacks at 4d8 which apparently are not possible right now due to modern weapon always requiring a move action to reload... so I'll take one attack at 16d8 if I'm planning to stat out a modern shotgun guy.
Yes, double-barreled musket with rapid reload is better *only* if you use alchemical cartridges (which are a semi magical thingy not available in modern day guns 'cause they all use metal cartridges...)
I mean, it's fascinating how they've managed to balance the game and prevent abuse from modern guns into the pathfinder setting entirely with the creation of these little metal cartridges... me likes! :)
Modern guy ends up in Golarion with machine gun, runs out of ammo, and can no longer upset the setting with his shennanigans! ;)
Modern guy retrains to learn Rapid Reload... :)
That's the point. RAW, it's better to use a Musket.
Which is weird.
thejeff wrote: That's the point. RAW, it's better to use a Musket.
Which is weird.
Yes, but in an antimagic zone (i.e. Earth) your musket is relying on alchemical cartridges that will fail miserably...
"To make an item using Craft (alchemy), you must have alchemical equipment. If you are working in a city, you can buy what you need as part of the raw materials cost to make the item, but alchemical equipment is difficult or impossible to come by in some places."
...in some places... like modern Earth :)
So with Rapid Reload, in a modern setting (i.e. no alchemy), a musket is a standard action to reload one bullet. Which is greater than the move action required to load two shotgun chambers.
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Purple Dragon Knight wrote: thejeff wrote: That's the point. RAW, it's better to use a Musket.
Which is weird.
Yes, but in an antimagic zone (i.e. Earth) your musket is relying on alchemical cartridges that will fail miserably...
"To make an item using Craft (alchemy), you must have alchemical equipment. If you are working in a city, you can buy what you need as part of the raw materials cost to make the item, but alchemical equipment is difficult or impossible to come by in some places."
...in some places... like modern Earth :)
So with Rapid Reload, in a modern setting (i.e. no alchemy), a musket is a standard action to reload one bullet. Which is greater than the move action required to load two shotgun chambers. First, Earth isn't an antimagic zone. People from Golarion going there can use magic fine. Second, Alchemy isn't magic. Third, metal cartridges are alchemical cartridges.
Jeff Merola wrote: First, Earth isn't an antimagic zone. People from Golarion going there can use magic fine. Second, Alchemy isn't magic. Third, metal cartridges are alchemical cartridges. Which, of course, leads us back to the subject at hand. Metal carts are Alch carts. Alch carts reduce reloading by 1, therefore Metal carts, as a type of Alch cart, reduce reloading by 1. So either advanced firearms have move-action reloading and then, additionally, reduce that by 1 to a free action, or, advanced firearms actually have an un-stated standard-action reloading, reduced to de facto move actions; in which case, Rapid Reload works for at least 1-h advanced firearms.
Kazaan wrote: Jeff Merola wrote: First, Earth isn't an antimagic zone. People from Golarion going there can use magic fine. Second, Alchemy isn't magic. Third, metal cartridges are alchemical cartridges. Which, of course, leads us back to the subject at hand. Metal carts are Alch carts. Alch carts reduce reloading by 1, therefore Metal carts, as a type of Alch cart, reduce reloading by 1. So either advanced firearms have move-action reloading and then, additionally, reduce that by 1 to a free action, or, advanced firearms actually have an un-stated standard-action reloading, reduced to de facto move actions; in which case, Rapid Reload works for at least 1-h advanced firearms. Except for the bit where they reload to capacity, which throws the whole thing out of whack.
Basically, advanced firearms are an optional addition. There's some ambiguity here. Make it work however you want.
Purple Dragon Knight wrote: thejeff wrote: That's the point. RAW, it's better to use a Musket.
Which is weird.
Yes, but in an antimagic zone (i.e. Earth) your musket is relying on alchemical cartridges that will fail miserably...
"To make an item using Craft (alchemy), you must have alchemical equipment. If you are working in a city, you can buy what you need as part of the raw materials cost to make the item, but alchemical equipment is difficult or impossible to come by in some places."
...in some places... like modern Earth :)
So with Rapid Reload, in a modern setting (i.e. no alchemy), a musket is a standard action to reload one bullet. Which is greater than the move action required to load two shotgun chambers. Craft (alchemy)...in other words, Knowledge (Chemistry) for modern times (Army of Darkness).
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I understand that revolver-users are probably a fairly small percentage of the customer base, but it still seems kind of surreal that people have been asking about this issue for 4+ years without an official clarification.
C'mon, "Rapid Reload seems like it should let you reload advanced firearms more rapidly, does it, and if so, how? Or are AFs already at 'Free Action' to reload because of Alchemical Cartridges" All we need is like one sentence.
I realize folks are busy and stuff, but oy.
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Peeks in...Checks 83 post for possible clarifcation..... checks he FAQ'd......Leaves again.
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Answered in FAQ!
FAQ wrote: Advanced Firearms and Rapid Reload: How does Rapid Reload work with advanced firearms? It seems like I can reload an early firearm with alchemical cartridges and Rapid Reload faster than an advanced firearm. Are advanced firearms meant to receive an additional reload reduction for using metal cartridges? Are they meant to work differently with Rapid Reload than early firearms?
Advanced firearms do not receive an additional reload reduction for using metal cartridges; their reload speed is the one listed in the chart, and they must use metal cartridges, which don’t affect the reload. On page 136 under loading a firearm, it mentions that Rapid Reload reduces the time to load a firearm in the section for rules that apply to both early and advanced firearms; however, the Rapid Reload feat doesn’t break out advanced firearms separately from other firearms. It should reduce their reload speed from a move action to a free action.
Thanks for the answer guys.
Finally! Thank you! This was long overdue!
Wraithstrike Minion #1 wrote: Peeks in...Checks 83 post for possible clarifcation..... checks he FAQ'd......Leaves again. Where is my other minion? Give a minion a little freedom, and they think they can just stay out as long as they want.
OMG thanks for the answer you guys are the best!
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Official Rules Response
