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What I'm hearing is a lot of whiner DMs who aren't creative enough to challenge a base class like the gunslinger. Half of them are coming out and ADMITTING that I am right because the rules DO NOT state the need for a free hand when clearing a gun!
You appear to have a consistency problem. Why would you be vindicated in any way by the agreement of whiner DMs without creativity? Since you clearly care little for their opinion, receiving the supposed support of 50% of them doesn't strengthen your case no matter how many exclamation marks you use.
Edit: Speaking of consistency problems.
Get this -- the DM gave us each a special ability (SLA) that could be any 1st or 2nd level spell, 3 times per day. Pretty sweet! He was being less of a lamer that day.
I'm sorry, this doesn't appear anywhere in the rulebook either that you can receive a special ability (SLA) that could be any 1st or 2nd level spell, 3 times per day.
As per previous discussion, this means that you can not use this ability since it is a GM ruling and not anywhere in the written rules.
Am I the only one who thinks Werebat's gunslinger reloads/unjams his pistols like this:
Boobreload
Well, you don't need a free hand to pull this of, but at least 18 CHA. ;)
But personal I think the GM has the final word. There are always the discussions between RAW and RAI and it depends on the players and the GM to find the best "working" compromise. Personally I would suggest the use of a free hand, because logic demands it. ;)
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Archers can deal similar levels of DPR from 5 times the range with a far cheaper baseline weapon, far cheaper ammunition and no misfire chance. bows also benefit from a great amount of exclusive magic item and feat synergies, don't require as much feat investment to pull off, and area martial weapon rather than an exotic weapon.Gunslingers aren't any more broken than archers, in fact, archers are more overpowered.
EXACTLY! Now THAT is some "common sense"!!!
What I'm hearing is a lot of whiner DMs who aren't creative enough to challenge a base class like the gunslinger. Half of them are coming out and ADMITTING that I am right because the rules DO NOT state the need for a free hand when clearing a gun!
As for how I am reloading, it is with the Reloading Hands spell. Get this -- the DM gave us each a special ability (SLA) that could be any 1st or 2nd level spell, 3 times per day. Pretty sweet! He was being less of a lamer that day.
Anyway now I have the proof that even his fellow negative Nancies are admitting that nowhere in the ACTUAL RULES does it state that I need a free hand to clear a weapon. Thanks!
This Spell?
"Reloading HandsSchool conjuration (creation); Level magus 2, ranger 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range touch
Target projectile weapon touched
Duration 1 round/caster level (D)
Saving throw Will negates (object, harmless); Spell Resistance yes (object, harmless)
Once per round, phantom hands load a single ranged weapon or firearm with conjured ammunition. This ammunition counts as magical for overcoming damage reduction and attacking incorporeal creatures, but is the standard for its type (a normal bullet or pellets and black powder in the case of firearms). Conjured ammunition ceases to exist 1 round after it is removed from the weapon, or at the end of the duration, whichever comes first."
That sound like you spend the first round casting. To get one free reload pr turn. :)
And it sounds like you are better of playing with your self...
EXACTLY! Now THAT is some "common sense"!!!
What I'm hearing is a lot of whiner DMs who aren't creative enough to challenge a base class like the gunslinger. Half of them are coming out and ADMITTING that I am right because the rules DO NOT state the need for a free hand when clearing a gun!
As for how I am reloading, it is with the Reloading Hands spell. Get this -- the DM gave us each a special ability (SLA) that could be any 1st or 2nd level spell, 3 times per day. Pretty sweet! He was being less of a lamer that day.
Anyway now I have the proof that even his fellow negative Nancies are admitting that nowhere in the ACTUAL RULES does it state that I need a free hand to clear a weapon. Thanks!
If you were the GM, you could perhaps houserule the game to work the way you want, but you are not the GM. The GM ruled otherwise, so the GM's decision is how it would work in his game that you are player in.
When you GM a game, you can rule it anyway that the rest of the table accepts, but not in the game you're playing now.
Just because the rules do not say it does not mean that your DM was incorrect in making you use a free hand.
You are correct that the DM is free to make any HOUSE RULE, or HOME BREW rule set, that he/she desires. However I think we can all agree that it is poor form for a DM to institute such HOUSE RULES in the middle of a campaign, especially concerning a class that a player informed him he would be playing ahead of time.
I can agree with you that a capricious DM (ie a weenie) is within his/her rights to make up any HOUSE RULES for their game that they wish.
However, Rules As Written, *I* am correct.
The DM is free to make up a house rule that magic missile needs to roll to hit.
The DM is free to make up a house rule that dwarves are size small with Powerful Build.
The DM is free to make up a house rule that you need a free hand in order to clear a jammed pistol.
However, let's be honest and call these things what they are -- HOME BREW HOUSE RULES. And let's also be honest and admit that springing such rules on players in a capricious manner is the earmark of a poor (ie weenie) DM.
When you GM a game, you can rule it anyway that the rest of the table accepts, but not in the game you're playing now.
Exactly. I think often times players (and I have been guilty of this as a player as well) forget how much time a GM spends preparing for the game. Between work, school, social life, etc., most of us have a limited number of hours to do what we actually enjoy. Creating content for a group that isn't appreciative is a waste of time.
GM's usually houserule because they're either trying to make things fit better into the campaign world they have created or because they think something is too powerful/abusive. They're not doing so to stick it to the players.
If as a player you're concerned how a houserule effects the game, mention it to the GM. But if your argument is "this houserule makes my character less powerful and I don't like that", you're generally not going to convince the GM to change it.
That sound like you spend the first round casting. To get one free...
I do indeed spend the first round casting. The spell was clearly INTENDED to reload all firearms held, so I have been running it that way.
The DM is free to make up a house rule that you need a free hand in order to clear a jammed pistol.
Only if you are of the mind that anything that is not specifically written is not a rule. If my PC runs through a dark area and runs into a wall, what happens? Is there a rule that specifically handles running into things when not being able to see? Probably not.
Does that make it a houserule if the GM decides my PC suffers 1d6 damage and is knocked prone? No, it means the GM is applying common sense to the situation at hand.
The rules are written with a living, breathing, intelligent GM running the game in mind. If you want to relegate the GM role to that of someone that ONLY reads the rules and applies them, then you want a different game.
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Just because the rules do not say it does not mean that your DM was incorrect in making you use a free hand.You are correct that the DM is free to make any HOUSE RULE, or HOME BREW rule set, that he/she desires. However I think we can all agree that it is poor form for a DM to institute such HOUSE RULES in the middle of a campaign, especially concerning a class that a player informed him he would be playing ahead of time.
I can agree with you that a capricious DM (ie a weenie) is within his/her rights to make up any HOUSE RULES for their game that they wish.
However, Rules As Written, *I* am correct.
The DM is free to make up a house rule that magic missile needs to roll to hit.
The DM is free to make up a house rule that dwarves are size small with Powerful Build.
The DM is free to make up a house rule that you need a free hand in order to clear a jammed pistol.
However, let's be honest and call these things what they are -- HOME BREW HOUSE RULES. And let's also be honest and admit that springing such rules on players in a capricious manner is the earmark of a poor (ie weenie) DM.
What you're suggesting is that the GM should come up with rules for every eventuality for every class ahead of time, rather than relying on their players to be mature enough to roll with common sense rulings as they come about. It's not a house rule, it's the GM doing their job and adjudicating on the fly for a situation that hasn't been adequately covered in the rules as written.
I do indeed spend the first round casting. The spell was clearly INTENDED to reload all firearms held, so I have been running it that way.
That sound like you spend the first round casting. To get one free...
I wonder if he realizes just how hypocritical this sounds.
Anyways, given the nature and attitude of this poster, I don't see any more use in conversation. Nothing legitimate will come of it.
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Werebat, I suppose that since the RAW doesn't say my Inquisitor can't fly, it means he CAN fly, right?
Your search for validation here is futile. Your GM is correct, he made the right ruling, and I pity the fact that he has to deal with somebody as petulant as you...
I do indeed spend the first round casting. The spell was clearly INTENDED to reload all firearms held, so I have been running it that way.
That sound like you spend the first round casting. To get one free...
Actually, the spell was clearly INTENDED to reload ONE firearm held per round (hence the language once per round and single weapon.
Also, the spell was clearly INTENDED to be used for reloading. The spell as written says nothing about enabling you to clear a jam with it.
Now, is the GM within his or her right to house rule that the spell can be used for something it does not specifically say that it can be used for? Sure. But the GM is also within his or her right to say that the spell cannot be used for something that it does not specifically say it can do.
As for "springing house rules" on the players mid-game, this is something that is fairly common because the rules as written cannot possibly cover every possible scenario that could ever possibly come up in every possible campaign. More to the point, GM's can't either. They are human after all, not omniscient gods (though a few may think they are ;p). As such, a GM is often required to make a ruling on the fly where the rules do not cover a given situation.
Now, since I personally am not well versed in the gunslinger, can you please point me to the written rule that specifically states that a jam can be cleared without the use of any hands?
Just because the rules do not say it does not mean that your DM was incorrect in making you use a free hand.You are correct that the DM is free to make any HOUSE RULE, or HOME BREW rule set, that he/she desires. However I think we can all agree that it is poor form for a DM to institute such HOUSE RULES in the middle of a campaign, especially concerning a class that a player informed him he would be playing ahead of time.
I can agree with you that a capricious DM (ie a weenie) is within his/her rights to make up any HOUSE RULES for their game that they wish.
However, Rules As Written, *I* am correct.
The DM is free to make up a house rule that magic missile needs to roll to hit.
The DM is free to make up a house rule that dwarves are size small with Powerful Build.
The DM is free to make up a house rule that you need a free hand in order to clear a jammed pistol.
However, let's be honest and call these things what they are -- HOME BREW HOUSE RULES. And let's also be honest and admit that springing such rules on players in a capricious manner is the earmark of a poor (ie weenie) DM.
Speaking as a GM who generally disallows the Gods of Touch Attacks AKA Gunslingers, for various reasons, I'd say your GM is being more than reasonable. The earmark of a bad GM is randomly nerfing you because they don't like what you're doing. You're already using a very strong build. Is he randomly giving monsters 30 touch AC just to prevent you from hitting? Is he actively preventing you from acquiring ammunition? Is he in any way hampering your class capabilities?
No.
The fact of the matter is is that he's applying some small amount of logic to an otherwise absurd model. The fact that you are comparing "need a free hand in order to clear a jammed pistol" with "magic missile needs to roll to hit" implies to me that you are looking at things from by far the worst perspective you could take on this whole thing. Your GM is the arbiter of the rules, before the game, during the game, and after the game. It's quite possible that your GM thought that the rule already required a free hand to fix the weapon, and when you told him it didn't, he had to inform you that it would, because you don't just bash your head against your gun to fix it.
I can say with certainty that it's not poor form for a DM to institute rules such as that one mid-campaign, since it did you literally no harm aside from preventing you from continuing to go non-stop Monty Hall on everything in sight. Instead, he made you take 5 seconds of in game AND REAL LIFE time to just holster the one gun, clear the broken gun, and draw the new gun. God forbid you have to actually do something other than fire constantly.
If a DM is actively working at changing the mechanics of the game (I.E., making Magic Missile require a roll, which actively changes a large portion of the spell's power) then I would be more inclined to agree with you that the DM was at fault. However in this case, I think it's more the case that you're acting entitled. RAW does not always mean RAI, and it is the DM's interpretation that determines what RAI means for your game.
So, suck it up buttercup.
EDIT:
I do indeed spend the first round casting. The spell was clearly INTENDED to reload all firearms held, so I have been running it that way.
That sound like you spend the first round casting. To get one free...
Oh my god. Do you even hear yourself? You're complaining about the GM isn't following RAW, and then in nearly the same breath you're talking about your own (warped) version of RAI for a spell that EXPLICITLY STATES "A single ranged weapon or firearm" in order to reload both your guns every round? You're literally arguing both for and against your own argument (albeit badly in both cases) without so much as missing a step.
I'm confused. Why did the dragon stand around 30 feet away from the gunslinger doing nothing for 3 rounds? It sounds like this gunslinger killed the dragon because the dragon was poorly played. Muskets have a range increment of 40 feet and a maximum range of 200 feet. The dragon could have moved out of the gunlsinger's range in 1 round.look I'm sorry Umbriere, but nothing you will ever say will convince me that gunslingers arent overpowered. my friend has a musket master, at level 11 she solo'd a Gargantuan Black Dragon with 449 HP in two rounds at 30 feet away. granted she crit once, but at 19-20 from an oil and its x4 crit.
EDIT: it was 3 rounds, and only had 349, i typo'd. it was a dragon that wasnt meant to be killed, you're supposed to run.
the dragon isnt meant to be killed, and has increased hp because of this fact, its specified tactics were that it perched and flung spells at anyone it saw to harry them, as it was part of a large multi-table scenario. it was used to being the biggest, baddest mofo alive ever, so why would it run away? had a major Smaugh complex.
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Also, the spell was clearly INTENDED to be used for reloading. The spell as written says nothing about enabling you to clear a jam with it.
I never said that the spell had anything to so with clearing the jam in the gun. I only mentioned the spell to explain to the haters out there that it was possible to reload my pistols every round, and how I was doing it.
Now, kindly point to me the rule that states the need for my gunslinger to have a free hand in order to clear a jammed pistol.
No one else here has been able to do so. Hence their frustrated mewling about "attitude".
Complaining about "attitude" is what you do when the rules don't work in your favor.
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I do indeed spend the first round casting. The spell was clearly INTENDED to reload all firearms held, so I have been running it that way.
That sound like you spend the first round casting. To get one free...
It was clearly not.
You May have the most large GM in the world to allow that. I still think you should apologize for the way you talk about him here.I suggest you show your GM this thread then he will se that everybody agrees with you and he will rule in your favor;)
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Your GM made a fair ruling during your game and you then felt the need to come onto the forums to vent spleen after you didn't get your way. It sounds like you're the frustrated one mate.
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As many have have already stated, the lack of a rule does not an opposing rule make. The rules don't state that my sorcerer can't make any creature he wants die by looking at it funny as a free action, but I still doubt my GM would allow it.
That being said, if you could devise a viable method for someone to actually unjam their weapon without a free hand, and describe it to your GM, you might have a better chance of him allowing it, albeit probably with a skill check of some sort.
the dragon isnt meant to be killed, and has increased hp because of this fact, its specified tactics were that it perched and flung spells at anyone it saw to harry them, as it was part of a large multi-table scenario. it was used to being the biggest, baddest mofo alive ever, so why would it run away? had a major Smaugh complex.
And it didn't move after the first round? Sounds like the dragon was too dumb to live.
But that doesn't imply that gunslingers are overpowered.
Now, kindly point to me the rule that states the need for my gunslinger to have a free hand in order to clear a jammed pistol.The description for quick clear is vague as to what the gunslinger is doing to clear the jam:
At 1st level, as a standard action, the gunslinger can remove the broken condition from a single firearm she is currently wielding, as long as that condition was gained by a firearm misfire. The gunslinger must have at least 1 grit point to perform this deed. Alternatively, if the gunslinger spends 1 grit point to perform this deed, she can perform quick clear as a move-equivalent action instead of a standard action.
I can imagine ways to clear the jam that wouldn't require a free hand. I think it's reasonable to say you can do it without a free hand. It's much more believable than weapon cords.
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Also, the spell was clearly INTENDED to be used for reloading. The spell as written says nothing about enabling you to clear a jam with it.
I never said that the spell had anything to so with clearing the jam in the gun. I only mentioned the spell to explain to the haters out there that it was possible to reload my pistols every round, and how I was doing it.
Now, kindly point to me the rule that states the need for my gunslinger to have a free hand in order to clear a jammed pistol.
No one else here has been able to do so. Hence their frustrated mewling about "attitude".
Complaining about "attitude" is what you do when the rules don't work in your favor.
Kindly tell me where the rules tell me I need an urethra to urinate.
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I never said that the spell had anything to so with clearing the jam in the gun. I only mentioned the spell to explain to the haters out there that it was possible to reload my pistols every round, and how I was doing it.
Now, kindly point to me the rule that states the need for my gunslinger to have a free hand in order to clear a jammed pistol.
No one else here has been able to do so. Hence their frustrated mewling about "attitude".
Complaining about "attitude" is what you do when the rules don't work in your favor.
Complaining about "haters" and "weenie DMs" is what you do when the GM doesn't adjudicate in your favor.
Pack it up, buddy.
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I never said that the spell had anything to so with clearing the jam in the gun. I only mentioned the spell to explain to the haters out there that it was possible to reload my pistols every round, and how I was doing it.
Now, kindly point to me the rule that states the need for my gunslinger to have a free hand in order to clear a jammed pistol.
No one else here has been able to do so. Hence their frustrated mewling about "attitude".
Complaining about "attitude" is what you do when the rules don't work in your favor.
Complaining about "haters" and "weenie DMs" is what you do when the GM doesn't adjudicate in your favor.
Pack it up, buddy.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say the OP is about... 12.
I'll probably keep track of this thread for a few more laughs when he ultimately responds with "but my GM didn't give me the toy train I wanted for christmas, he's a weenie", but otherwise I'm done with the thread.
