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Is a class that cast a spell spontaneously (such as a hedge witch, cleric, druid) count enough as a spontaneous caster to use Mnemonic Vestment?
I have seen in PFS people owning multiple of these 5K items - and they are so broken - I was hoping that I could get my hedge witch (who can sponataneously cast cure spells even if she doesn't know them) or cleric to use it to never lose expensive scrolls I've bought. Especially as they are cheaper than a Raise Dead scroll so once you bought one you or two you could raise several people at the table for no additional cost.
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Clerics, hedge witches, and druids are not spontaneous casters and thus the item would not work for them. Spontaneous casters are Sorcerers, Oracles and the like. If they are still using it to cast things like raise dead they would need to have the material components for the spell as well and I would check to make sure they have the stuff needed listed on their character sheet.
I agree that only the sorcerers and oracles can use the item. As they are true spontaneous casters.
I disagree on the material component cost that Chris(in polite disagreement with a Venture-Lieutenant) argues. Because in the last line of the description of the Mnemonic Vestment:
"The surface of this delicate-looking blue silk robe is adorned with tiny embossed runes across its entire surface
If the wearer is a spontaneous caster, once per day she may use a spell slot to cast a spell from a written source (such as a scroll or spellbook) as if she knew that spell. The spell must be on her spell list, the same spell level or lower than the expended spell slot, and the same type of spell (arcane or divine) as the spell slot expended. The caster must also understand the written source (such as using Decipher Script (Editor’s Note: This should probably be Spellcraft.) or read magic) and be carrying it. Activating the robe is not an action, but casting the spell otherwise works as normal, including casting time, providing components or foci, and so on. Using a mnemonic vestment’s properties does not consume the written source."
...DOES NOT CONSUME THE WRITTEN SOURCE. This means that if the source is consumable, then the source is not consumed. Simple English.
Upon scroll creation, the material component is used. And the scroll is not consumed, the scroll is intact for another use. BUT if you cast from a spellbook, then you need the material components.
Is it a overpowered, possibly unintended use of the Mnemonic Vestment. That's up to piazo and homegame GMs. Until either make a ruling, cast on bro!!!!
Btw, is there a pfs ruling or FAQ? I didn't see one with quick search of msg boards. But have no problem adhering to rulings.
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For the raise dead portion I mean if they were not using a scroll they would have to provide the material components. I never said the scroll was consumed, so please before you go off spouting that I don't understand simple english re-read what I said. I agree that if it was on a scroll the item would not be consumed, but you still have to have the material components per the items description. This does make the item a bit powerful, but not overpowered.
Also please don't quote D20pfsrd like you did there, they have been known to have errors in their stuff. Case in point Decipher Script is part of Linguistics not Spellcraft.
Note that while scrolls have their material components baked in to their creation, you still have to pay for the cost of said components in addition to the normal scroll prices. It's not free. So you pay at least once.
-j
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Activating the robe is not an action, but casting the spell otherwise works as normal, including casting time, providing components or foci, and so on. Using a mnemonic vestment’s properties does not consume the written source."
look at the bit before that.
You must still supply the material component, which is the expensive part of raise dead.
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Also, reread what it does:
If the wearer is a spontaneous caster, once per day she may use a spell slot to cast a spell from a written source (such as a scroll or spellbook) as if she knew that spell.
It doesn't let you duplicate the power of the scroll, it lets you cast the spell using your spell slot as if you knew the spell. Thats *all* it does.
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I disagree on the material component cost that Chris(in polite disagreement with a Venture-Lieutenant) argues.
For the raise dead portion I mean if they were not using a scroll they would have to provide the material components. I never said the scroll was consumed, so please before you go off spouting that I don't understand simple english re-read what I said. I agree that if it was on a scroll the item would not be consumed, but you still have to have the material components per the items description. This does make the item a bit powerful, but not overpowered.
Also please don't quote D20pfsrd like you did there, they have been known to have errors in their stuff. Case in point Decipher Script is part of Linguistics not Spellcraft.
Bit of an overreaction there VL. Don't forget you're one of the public faces of PFS.
On topic, I agree with the posters here that you have to provide material components. The text is pretty clear, and thematically the vest lets you take the knowledge from the written source, but not the components built-in to a scroll.
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There is no overreaction. Insulting someone by stating that they don't understand simple English is offensive even if you are using it in a passive aggressive manner by stating that it is a polite discussion. Then you come along and bold parts of my statement ignoring the rest and claim I am overreacting?
As Flite and I have both, correctly, pointed out you need the material components to cast the spell even from a scroll as it is not actually being cast from the scroll.
There is no overreaction. Insulting someone by stating that they don't understand simple English is offensive even if you are using it in a passive aggressive manner by stating that it is a polite discussion. Then you come along and bold parts of my statement ignoring the rest and claim I am overreacting?
As Flite and I have both, correctly, pointed out you need the material components to cast the spell even from a scroll as it is not actually being cast from the scroll.
that kills a bunch of scroll based tactics that really don't impact game balance
such as recycling the scroll and components for a raise dead as a discounted escape death card for the party
or sorcerers and arcanists, casting and recycling heal or the restoration line in emergencies
or Oracles being able to cast Holy Sword
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that kills a bunch of scroll based tactics that really don't impact game balancesuch as recycling the scroll and components for a raise dead as a discounted escape death card for the party
or sorcerers and arcanists, casting and recycling heal or the restoration line in emergencies
or Oracles being able to cast Holy Sword
Please go back and read the entire thread and what it deals with. An Oracle would be unable to cast holy sword from a scroll unless they have it somehow added to their spell list. A Sorcerer or Arcanist would also be unable to cast the restoration line of spells unless it is added to their spell list. Also with these classes in particular when spells outside of their spell list get added they automatically know them and thus would make the item useless for those spells. In the case of the above magic item it specifically states that the spell has to be on your spell list to use the item.
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I have gmed over a hundred PFS tables and have yet to see even ONE of these vestments being used.
Might I suggest you contact the organizers for these game days/conventions and see if they will please input their reporting sheets. You are currently only showing two stars...
Please go back and read the entire thread and what it deals with. An Oracle would be unable to cast holy sword from a scroll unless they have it somehow added to their spell list. A Sorcerer or Arcanist would also be unable to cast the restoration line of spells unless it is added to their spell list. Also with these classes in particular when spells outside of their spell list get added they automatically know them and thus would make the item useless for those spells. In the case of the above magic item it specifically states that the spell has to be on your spell list to use the item.
that kills a bunch of scroll based tactics that really don't impact game balancesuch as recycling the scroll and components for a raise dead as a discounted escape death card for the party
or sorcerers and arcanists, casting and recycling heal or the restoration line in emergencies
or Oracles being able to cast Holy Sword
the vestment treats the scroll as if you had cast the spell on it yourself. thus counting it as a spell known, and one of the uses i have seen for it, is spells you can't normally access.
and even if you couldn't use the scroll due to spell list issues, that's what a UMD check fixes, a UMD check would also allow a prepared caster to utilize this Vestment.
UMD FTW. look at how many proposed PFS builds take the skill anyway.
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So let us say that a 9th level sorcerer uses the vestments to cast Mage Armor from a scroll. Will this make the spell a 9th level Mage Armor?
Yes (for certain values of "level")
It's a first level spell, cast using one of the sorcerer's first level spells per day slots and at the sorcerer's caster level - so caster level 9 in your example.
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UM- Here is the description of the item:
The surface of this delicate-looking blue silk robe is adorned with tiny embossed runes across its entire surface. If the wearer is a spontaneous caster, once per day she may use a spell slot to cast a spell from a written source (such as a scroll or spellbook) as if she knew that spell. The spell must be on her spell list, the same spell level or lower than the expended spell slot, and the same type of spell (arcane or divine) as the spell slot expended. The caster must also understand the written source (such as using Decipher Script or read magic) and be carrying it. Activating the robe is not an action, but casting the spell otherwise works as normal, including casting time, providing components or foci, and so on. Using a mnemonic vestment’s properties does not consume the written source.
Once again, as I and others have stated, the spell MUST be on their spell list so UMD would not work in this instance. UMD does not impart the ability to be counted as a spontaneous caster either. So your idea that UMD would work in this case is wrong.
As a side note, for someone who said this:
i cut back my championing for PFS because i don't intend to return anytime soon?
you sure seem to be championing yet another cause in something you neither play or are interested in playing. In my experience a lot of people do not take UMD, it is more a Sorcerer/Rogue thing,
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I have one of these on my Sorcerer in PFS. It's a great item to add to the Sorcerer's utility, but as Chris and others have pointed out, it doesn't remove the need for expensive spell components, and it doesn't let you access spells that aren't already on your class list. What it does do is greatly open up the Sorcerer's (or Oracle, or whatever spontaneous class) utility. You can pick up scrolls of spells you don't cast very often instead of getting them as a spell known. I've done this with Teleport, for example, because I have Dimension Door for short travel, and I generally don't need a full teleport. But when I do, it's great to be able to cast it at full CL an not lose the scroll, and I've always got the scroll as a second backup, if I need it twice in a scenario or need to use the Vestment on something else.
My sorcerer took this utility approach a step farther and does carry several Divine scrolls, but for those he must use UMD and expend the scroll (at +23 it works for most), and he cannot use the Magic Vestment with them, since they are not on his class list.
Since the group I ended up with for Eyes of the Ten includes a cleric, druid, wizard, magus, and arcane archer (ranger/magus), they tend to have those utility spells covered, so I haven't used it much lately, anyway.
sorry.
UMD has the option to Emulate Class Features, so you simply emulate the casting of the desired spontaneous caster
if it has a spontaneous variation
so a sorcerer could make a check to emulate oracle spellcasting for the purpose of effects, granting them the emulated oracle list for the purpose of using these vestments on a scroll of restoration as long as they got a 28 or better on UMD.
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What I'm surprised I haven't seen is spontaneous casters keeping spellbooks, rather than purchasing scrolls to use.
once they buy one scroll they never use it up - so not so odd - and I know of a character who has more than one of this device, so he has a batch of scrolls he can use once a day and never use them up.
This could be really sweet on a bard.
Can spontaneous casters even scribe spells into spell books? I guess you could pay to have someone else scribe the spell into a spell book, but I don't think there is a price listed for that, so it probably isn't pfs legal.
You have a non spontaneous caster do it for you. For something like expeditious retreat you're golden because its a wizards spell. Sorcerers luck out here because their entire list can be done by wizards. For beguiling gift or something thats on a bards list but no one else's you're out of luck (unless you can shove a witches familiar into a pocket, but that sounds like a bad idea)
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I have heard that the spellbooks found in Ultimate Magic Spellbooks are not legal for PFS. Sorcerers have no way to write their own spellbooks (someone please show I'm wrong!), and you can't acquire a spellbook from another PC. There is no price for an NPC to write one for you...
So, I don't see a way it can happen.
Edit: Just checked Additional Materials, and yes, no additional material from chapter two is allowed. No spellbooks.
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once they buy one scroll they never use it up - so not so odd - and I know of a character who has more than one of this device, so he has a batch of scrolls he can use once a day and never use them up.What I'm surprised I haven't seen is spontaneous casters keeping spellbooks, rather than purchasing scrolls to use.
Here is how you run it. When said abuser, which they really aren't because they are paying 5k for an item to cast 1 more spell per day, wants to cast a spell using the item check these things:
1. The spell must be on their spell list or they can't use the vestments.
2. Spell Components, even if they are using a scroll they have to have the components and they are consumed on their use with the exception of the scroll.
3. When using the item they cast the spell just like they cast any other spell so it subtracts on their spells per day each time they use the item(s).
Since there is no specific rule stating that they can only use 1 per day you cannot force that on them.
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I have heard that the spellbooks found in Ultimate Magic Spellbooks are not legal for PFS. Sorcerers have no way to write their own spellbooks (someone please show I'm wrong!), and you can't acquire a spellbook from another PC. There is no price for an NPC to write one for you...
So, I don't see a way it can happen.
Edit: Just checked Additional Materials, and yes, no additional material from chapter two is allowed. No spellbooks.
And, just likje gettiong a Cleric to cast a Heightened Continual Flame on your item, yuou get a PC Wizard you are adventuring with to write the spells into your spellbook. You buy the spellbook (10 gp for a travelling book), and you pay the scribing cost (level squared times 10 gp).
So, you aren't acquiring a spellbook from another PC, you are providing the material components (spellbook and pens/inks) for the Wizard to fill your spellbook for you.
On consideration, I don't see why you couldn't, for that 50% extra access fee, get an NPC Wizard to do the scribing for you, too. ETV, YMMV.
Ok, so allow me to assist in the spellbook area here. A spell book is not a scroll, you can not cast directly from your spellbook, that is a old rule from a different edition.
If scribing spells was that easy, why cast scrolls in the first place... not to mention your bypassing the rules which disallow creation feats, since technically you could transcribe from another wizard... its highly unlikely as wizards are rarely played, but possible.
nope, your correct.
I wanted to make sure that people did not start to think they could cast out of spellbooks.
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Mnemonic Vestments do not seem "broken" or abusive enough to me at first glance. They grant a 1/day use of any written magical item without consuming it, considering that the wearer can cast normally spell in the first place, which is fairly good.
If you check the prices of pearls of power which let you regain a spell back, this price is somewhere just in a right place. Only problematic part is component's which are bought together with a scroll and thus, a scroll of Raise Dead could be used repeatedly, but only at high enough level, which is level 11 (level 12 for spontaneous spellcasters probably). By that time, most of pathfinders will have a good or tricky spell to solve this in either case or will be retired already.
Considering also that Blood Money isn't removed (isn't it?), I just don't see how can these vestments be broken enough then.
Adam
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Ah, good point. I guess part of text just skipped through my eyes.
I don't get it tho, how are scrolls which already have material components included in their cost, supposed to work with vestments. You have to apply additional material components? In either case, this 5000 gold worthy item recycles a single scroll. It's not worth the trouble of giving it a "broken item" signature.
Adam
Actually, I think that anyone able to make the spellcraft check can scribe into a spell book. For example, check out the Lore Oracle's revelation:
Arcane Archivist (Su): Your experience with lore-filled tomes has granted you the ability to cast arcane spells as if they were on your spell list. Once per day, you can cast a spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list as if it were on your list of spells known. The spell consumes a spell slot one level higher than the level of the spell. You must have a spellbook containing the spell to cast it in this way, and the spell is erased when you complete the casting. You must be at least 11th level to select this revelation.
There is a player in GA with a seeker Lore oracle, and he even purchased a blessed book so he can cast from it, and re-fill it cheaply.
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I'd love to be able to scribe into a spell book with my sorcerer. Or have some way to pay for it to be done. I've avoided it in the past, because in other threads where this has come up, there's never been a definitive answer, and it's always come down to the dreaded "expect table variation." The cost of scrolls isn't that much more, and it means I'll always have the scroll as a backup if I need a second casting of the spell, so that's what I've bought so far.
Mnemonic Vestments do not seem "broken" or abusive enough to me at first glance...
If you check the prices of pearls of power which let you regain a spell back, this price is somewhere just in a right place.
Pearl of Power is a reasonable comparison, if we lacked anything else. However since this works for any level of spell (thus increasing in value drastically as you level up), it's an inadequate one. Fortunately there is a great item to compare it to:
Price Varies; Aura moderate or strong (no school); CL 7th; Weight —
Type I 1,500 gp; Type II 6,000 gp; Type III 13,500; Type IV 24,000 gp
This ring comes in four types: ring of spell knowledge I, ring of spell knowledge II, ring of spell knowledge III, and ring of spell knowledge IV. All of them are useful only to spontaneous arcane spellcasters. Through study, the wearer can gain the knowledge of a single spell in addition to those allotted by her class and level. A ring of spell knowledge I can hold 1st-level spells only, a ring of spell knowledge II 1st- or 2nd-level spells, a ring of spell knowledge III spells of 3rd level or lower, and a ring of spell knowledge IV up to 4th-level spells.
A ring of spell knowledge is only a storage space; the wearer must still encounter a written, active, or cast version of the spell and succeed at a DC 20 Spellcraft check to teach the spell to the ring. Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class' spell list.
Arcane spells that do not appear on the wearer's class list are treated as one level higher for all purposes (storage and casting).
Construction Requirements
Cost varies
Type I 750 gp; Type II 3,000 gp; Type III 6,750; Type IV 12,000 gp
Forge Ring, creator must be able to cast spells of the spell level to be granted
Now, the ring lets you cast a spell (using slots) as many times as you have slots. But it is limited to a single spell, occupies the ring slot, and requires a skill check to use (semi-significant for sorcerers and oracles). It is also limited to a single spell-level.
The vestments... way underpriced. Equivalent to that 11th level Lore Oracle revelation.
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@Majuba
The Ring of Spell Knowledge is great for versatility, but you are casting it at your caster level and DC. Mnemonic vestment enables you to use it from a scroll tho, so it uses it's caster level and DC.
A pearl of power of higher level enables you still to cast spells at your caster level and DC. Only better benefit from vestment would be to use spells which aren't based around caster level and DC for higher profit like buffs.
To be honest, it's hard to price these items, but at least to me, price seems right. I would put it initially maybe at 6000 or 7000 gold pieces, but that's not to far from what it's currently at.
Adam
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Mnemonic Vestments do not seem "broken" or abusive enough to me at first glance...
If you check the prices of pearls of power which let you regain a spell back, this price is somewhere just in a right place.Pearl of Power is a reasonable comparison, if we lacked anything else. However since this works for any level of spell (thus increasing in value drastically as you level up), it's an inadequate one. Fortunately there is a great item to compare it to:
** spoiler omitted **
Now, the ring lets you cast a spell (using slots) as many times as you have slots. But it is...
That's a pretty poor comparison.
The Ring lets you cast the learned spell as many times as you have slots, forever. Once you make the single skill check just once, you effectively have another spell known. What's the price gap for several times the uses per day? Additionally, the Ring will let you poach spells from other lists; the Vestments can't do that.
Between the massive differences in uses per day and the extremely rare ability to cross lists, there is too much difference between the Ring and the Vestments to make any sort of meaningful price comparison.
The Ring of Spell Knowledge is great for versatility, but you are casting it at your caster level and DC. Mnemonic vestment enables you to use it from a scroll tho, so it uses it's caster level and DC.
Malag, this isn't true. Please read the item description closer. It lets you cast the spell as if you knew it.
That's a pretty poor comparison.
Is there a better one?
The Ring lets you cast the learned spell as many times as you have slots, forever. Once you make the single skill check just once, you effectively have another spell known. What's the price gap for several times the uses per day?
When we are discussing the ability to use one-off, infrequently needed, spells? Very low price gap. In the broader context, it's a significant impact - essentially equal to the number of times you would typically use one spell, of one spell level. Which isn't going to be much - otherwise you'd probably have picked the spell to be known in the first place.
Now, what's the price gap for being able to use any spell?
Additionally, the Ring will let you poach spells from other lists; the Vestments can't do that.
Other arcane lists, yes. That isn't all that much variation among those (though I'm sure Sorcerers love to poach glibness.) Still only one spell.
Between the massive differences inuses per dayversatility and theextremely rare ability to cross listsunlimited spell level access, there is too much difference between the Ring and the Vestments to make any sort of meaningful price comparison.
Perhaps you're right.
You are not really casting the spell FROM the scroll.
As such none of the scroll rules apply.
You can use a spellbook and get the same effect from the Vestment, remember.
You are casting the spell as if it was on your list of known spells, using a spell slot exactly as if it were a spell you know.
All the Vestment does, really, is momentarily add the spell in question to your list of known spells.
-j