according to math the five foot step can be done vertically or horizontally (looking down on the game mat, not necessarily in the game) because from the center of one square it is 5 feet to the center of a vertically adjacent or horizontally adjacent square, however a diagonally oriented square is 7.5 feet away.
They (mathmatically) should not be able to five foot step diagonally, unless they spend their next five foot step completing the move (not being able to make any other movement that turn)
Am I wrong on this?
While your math is unimpeachable, according to the rules of the game, the first diagonal square counts as 5 feet, the second as 10, so by RAW you can 5-foot-step diagonally.
See also the reach-weapon AoO argument.
While your math is unimpeachable, according to the rules of the game, the first diagonal square counts as 5 feet, the second as 10, so by RAW you can 5-foot-step diagonally.
See also the reach-weapon AoO argument.
I read that argument, however they did not bother to actually finish answering that question.
The fact remains that it is 100% RAW completely legal to take as many 5 foot steps as you like, multiply times 1.5 and that's how far you went.
the fact that it is a 5foot step implys that it is no more than 5 feet, and RAW ignores this by not having a definitive answer to the problem.
By RAW, if you move no distance during a round, you can take a single 5-foot step:
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.
In the same basic section (Combat) it states that a square is equivalent to 5', and that when moving, the first diagonal moved counts as one square (or 5'), the next two squares (10'), then one again, and so on:
As a general rule, distance is measured assuming that 1 square equals 5 feet.
Diagonals: When measuring distance, the first diagonal counts as 1 square, the second counts as 2 squares, the third counts as 1, the fourth as 2, and so on.
You can also see that this is intentional by checking out footnote #3 on the Attacks of Opportunity diagram of the combat section on the PRD, as it specifically shows the Sorcerer in the diagram taking a diagonal 5-foot step to avoid an AoO.
So by RAW you can make a 5-foot step diagonally. You are correct that mathematically this doesn't work out exactly, but it's very much how the rules function.
the problem is that it IS legal to move 7.5 feet in one turn with a 5 foot step, and as long as for the rest of combat you do not move diagonal again, you never have to pay for it.
by taking a diagonal five foot step you Gain maneuvering ability that your character Absolutely Does Not have, and you get away with it.
I hate when the rules state things that are hopelessly exploited...
the problem is that it IS legal to move 7.5 feet in one turn with a 5 foot step, and as long as for the rest of combat you do not move diagonal again, you never have to pay for it.
by taking a diagonal five foot step you Gain maneuvering ability that your character Absolutely Does Not have, and you get away with it.
I hate when the rules state things that are hopelessly exploited...
Your character does indeed have this ability, and can use it once per turn. Completely legal, not an exploit at all. It's a trade-off. They could have made you math it out or built a system to account for it, but they didn't for ease of play.
Some older systems made you math out how and where your Fireball's damage went based off of the available surfaces nearby to channel and contain it.
New ones just use a bubble, and that's it.
Fire doesn't work like that (As our resident Private Investigator Wizards will insist), but it's SO MUCH EASIER and doesn't stall game play.
Trade off's, compromises. Gotta keep things in balance. :)
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If you are wanting that level of accuracy in your game, then you're welcome to do so as a house rule, or I might suggest going with a game that relies more heavily on accuracy of distance.
But it's not an exploit at all. An exploit presumes that you're using a loophole in the rules or an unclear mechanic for unfair gain. This is intended, isn't unclear, and isn't unfair based on the rules system as it's written.
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according to math the five foot step can be done vertically or horizontally (looking down on the game mat, not necessarily in the game) because from the center of one square it is 5 feet to the center of a vertically adjacent or horizontally adjacent square, however a diagonally oriented square is 7.5 feet away.
Where do you get the 7.5' from?
-Skeld
If this is a sticking point Death_Keeper, throw away the squares and hand everyone rulers. That way there ARE no diagonals. Myself, I find it a pain in the bum but if you take the extra time go for it. Me, I'm happy with the easy way of doing things that isn't worried about the little fiddly bits that don't make sense when you look under the hood.
according to math the five foot step can be done vertically or horizontally (looking down on the game mat, not necessarily in the game) because from the center of one square it is 5 feet to the center of a vertically adjacent or horizontally adjacent square, however a diagonally oriented square is 7.5 feet away.Where do you get the 7.5' from?
-Skeld
Look at Xaratherus' spoiler "Combat - Movement, Position, and Distance - Measuring Movement:". Diagonals cost 5' first square, 10' the second, 5 the third, ect... It averages to 7.5' but to make the game easy it's counted in 5' increments.
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Look at Xaratherus' spoiler "Combat - Movement, Position, and Distance - Measuring Movement:". Diagonals cost 5' first square, 10' the second, 5 the third, ect... It averages to 7.5' but to make the game easy it's counted in 5' increments.according to math the five foot step can be done vertically or horizontally (looking down on the game mat, not necessarily in the game) because from the center of one square it is 5 feet to the center of a vertically adjacent or horizontally adjacent square, however a diagonally oriented square is 7.5 feet away.Where do you get the 7.5' from?
-Skeld
Interesting.
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This thread is ridiculous.
Each character isn't in the middle of their squares (or you wouldn't be able to punch an adjacent opponent). Moving from one square to the next isn't necessarily moving from one centre to the other.
There isn't a breach of pythagoras's theorem - it's just that the grid is an imperfect approximation (fireballs aren't jagged either).
If it upsets you that much, use hex grids.
In the grand scheme of things though, I don't see how being able to take a diagonal 5' step is a problem.
I add my 2 cents: if you're bothered with this "distance issue" and you feel it as an exploit, just go with the hex grid. This way, any direction you move has same distance. The drawback is, obviously, that your reach cover just 6 squares. But hey, there's no strange math.
Each character isn't in the middle of their squares (or you wouldn't be able to punch an adjacent opponent). Moving from one square to the next isn't necessarily moving from one centre to the other.
There isn't a breach of pythagoras's theorem - it's just that the grid is an imperfect approximation (fireballs aren't jagged either).
Trust me I understand that nobody stands in the middle of their square. (Unless paralyzed or somesuch) but it is a sticking point for me.
I played in Multiple matches where I literally could not win because someone 5 foot stepped diagonal and fled.
I got stunned for one round. They used that step, and retreated.
I as a melee character couldn't ever reach them. Ten feet away?? Trip attack retreat repeat.
It is an exploitation, only a few people use it, but it is annoying when you find someone who does
I fail to see how diagonal 5' step had anything to do with this. If they use it, you can use it to advance. If you can't advance, it's the trip attack and NOT the diagonal move. Scratch out diagonal from your post and the exact thing would have happened.
I played in Multiple matches where I literally could not win because someone 5 foot stepped diagonal and fled.
I got stunned for one round. They used that step, and retreated.I as a melee character couldn't ever reach them. Ten feet away?? Trip attack retreat repeat.
It is an exploitation, only a few people use it, but it is annoying when you find someone who does.
It's not an exploit, it's how it works.
If it bothers you so much, grab "Step up", then next time a caster steps back, you step forward and laugh.
I played in Multiple matches where I literally could not win because someone 5 foot stepped diagonal and fled.
I got stunned for one round. They used that step, and retreated.I as a melee character couldn't ever reach them. Ten feet away?? Trip attack retreat repeat.
It is an exploitation, only a few people use it, but it is annoying when you find someone who does.
It's not an exploit, it's how it works.
If it bothers you so much, grab "Step up", then next time a caster steps back, you step forward and laugh.
Or buy some whips and step BACK 5' and hit him back. :)
Each character isn't in the middle of their squares (or you wouldn't be able to punch an adjacent opponent). Moving from one square to the next isn't necessarily moving from one centre to the other.
There isn't a breach of pythagoras's theorem - it's just that the grid is an imperfect approximation (fireballs aren't jagged either).
Trust me I understand that nobody stands in the middle of their square. (Unless paralyzed or somesuch) but it is a sticking point for me.
I played in Multiple matches where I literally could not win because someone 5 foot stepped diagonal and fled.
I got stunned for one round. They used that step, and retreated.I as a melee character couldn't ever reach them. Ten feet away?? Trip attack retreat repeat.
It is an exploitation, only a few people use it, but it is annoying when you find someone who does
Okay. So it's not "mathematical" objection based on distances between squares. It's that you don't like some combination of the trip/movement/stun rules.
May as well work on fixing the issue rather than something unrelated.
Okay. So it's not "mathematical" objection based on distances between squares. It's that you don't like some combination of the trip/movement/stun rules.
May as well work on fixing the issue rather than something unrelated.
I'm noticing a lot of threads where the actual issue is not in fact the original stated issue, you need to draw out more information to figure out what the real question is. XD
Though, there is an interesting point.
If someone 5 foots away diagonally, then shouldn't they still be considered 5 feet away for the player they stepped away from?
I'm all for simplicity as I stated above, but if the player he fought tried to argue they were really 10 feet away after only taking a 5 foot step...
I would definitely call shenanigans.
Okay. So it's not "mathematical" objection based on distances between squares. It's that you don't like some combination of the trip/movement/stun rules.
May as well work on fixing the issue rather than something unrelated.
I'm noticing a lot of threads where the actual issue is not in fact the original stated issue, you need to draw out more information to figure out what the real question is. XD
Though, there is an interesting point.
If someone 5 foots away diagonally, then shouldn't they still be considered 5 feet away for the player they stepped away from?
I'm all for simplicity as I stated above, but if the player he fought tried to argue they were really 10 feet away after only taking a 5 foot step...
I would definitely call shenanigans.
They are 5 feet away. As long as they are in an adjacent square they can be threatened with a normal(non-reach) weapon.
They are 5 feet away. As long as they are in an adjacent square they can be threatened with a normal(non-reach) weapon.
Then I must be missing something, as I can't see what the OP's problem is.
It's a grid, the 5/10/5/10 method of diagonal movement is an acceptable compromise. It's not exact, but it works.
If someone 5 foots away from them, they can still get to restreating character, easily. 5 foot to them, all of the full attacks.
For all intents and purposes (As far as I can tell), 5 footing diagonally IS THE SAME as doing it in any other direction in this situation. So what's the problem?
If it's the combo of "Trip attack retreat repeat" like he mentioned later, then that's something else.
If everything is within the rules, and no one does anything wrong. Then saying something is an exploit because it's Cheap doesn't accomplish anything.
What does accomplish something, is posting here and saying something like:
"Hey, I'm playing a BLANK, and I keep having problems fighting players/monsters who trip me, attack me, and 5 foot step away. Preventing em from doing anything. Any idea's on how I can combat this?"
Don't complain, adapt, and show them the weakness's of their strategy! :D
Death_Keeper: Please describe the hole combat situation maybe you have missed some other rules, that would help you.
death_keeper: you *do* know that you cannot use a 5-ft.-step in a round in which you move any other distance using your move and/or standard actions, right?
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I hate when the rules state things that are hopelessly exploited...
Use Hex Grids
Agreed. I make it 7.071067811865475 feet.
I was waiting for someone to bring this up. If you "must" be accurate, then 7 won't do.
10' reach, then you can only hit guys in the closest diagonal, but not one diagonal out further.
They took that line out, yea. It makes for awkward Reach behavior. I seem to recall a thread that did a poll and most people just use the 3.5 extension anyway. Also you need to worry about approaching over that diagonal and officially that one 5 ft square provokes because you go from 15 ft to adjacent and "pass through the 10 ft square" on the way.
Death_Keeper: Please describe the hole combat situation maybe you have missed some other rules, that would help you.
The Entire situation is as follows (as far as I can Recall)
1a. Opponent stuns(?) my character (incapable of movement until next round), attacks and moves back 5 feet
1b. Can't reach opponent, can't move... fights defensively instead.
2a. opponent uses reach weapon for trip, attack, five foot diagonal step
2b. I get up, five foot step back, still fighting defensively
3a. he prepares to trip me when I reenter range.
3b. I charge, get tripped and get attacked.
and basically this just repeats.
because he is a square diagonal, he is too far away to hit. I can't get to him without facing his 14-15 bonus to trip.
I had no contingency for the situation because I had never faced it before.
As I understand it, a character is *somewhere* in Square-X, sometimes, the center, sometimes any corner, sometimes any edge. So, why assume I am moving from center to center, when I could be moving corner to corner in an adjacent square?
You are reading too much into the RAW and trying to pick a fight. You're welcome.
GNOME
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I had no contingency for the situation because I had never faced it before.
Then it sounds like you should start preparing one. This is a rules complaint, not a rules question.
1b: makes no sense, if you're stunned you have no actions, so you cannot fight defensively. Also, you cannot fight defensively when you do not even attack.
Ignoring the question of 1b), the mistake you're making is 3b).
Which should read: Drop primary melee weapon, quickdraw longbow, and laugh as I shoot him full of arrows with a full attack.
Any melee fighter that doesn't have a backup ranged weapon to use as circumstances dictate is doing it wrong.
Ignoring the question of 1b), the mistake you're making is 3b).
Which should read: Drop primary melee weapon, quickdraw longbow, and laugh as I shoot him full of arrows with a full attack.
Any melee fighter that doesn't have a backup ranged weapon to use as circumstances dictate is doing it wrong.
Or pull out his own reach weapon...
I'm still not seeing how ANY of this has to do with a 5' step being diagonal.
If Death_Keeper wants to solve this 'issue', he just has to change his race to merfolk. Then he never has to worry about this problem again...
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Each character isn't in the middle of their squares (or you wouldn't be able to punch an adjacent opponent). Moving from one square to the next isn't necessarily moving from one centre to the other.
There isn't a breach of pythagoras's theorem - it's just that the grid is an imperfect approximation (fireballs aren't jagged either).
Trust me I understand that nobody stands in the middle of their square. (Unless paralyzed or somesuch) but it is a sticking point for me.
I played in Multiple matches where I literally could not win because someone 5 foot stepped diagonal and fled.
I got stunned for one round. They used that step, and retreated.I as a melee character couldn't ever reach them. Ten feet away?? Trip attack retreat repeat.
It is an exploitation, only a few people use it, but it is annoying when you find someone who does
What they can't do is take a 5' step and then more movement. 5' steps are only allowed if you are not doing other movement, unless there is some special circumstance.
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Is this a case of the FAQratta regarding diagonal reach being used? I'm not quite clear. You say you were stunned, in which case you wouldn't get an AoO anyway. Same with getting tripped. Your description of events is unclear.Each character isn't in the middle of their squares (or you wouldn't be able to punch an adjacent opponent). Moving from one square to the next isn't necessarily moving from one centre to the other.
There isn't a breach of pythagoras's theorem - it's just that the grid is an imperfect approximation (fireballs aren't jagged either).
Trust me I understand that nobody stands in the middle of their square. (Unless paralyzed or somesuch) but it is a sticking point for me.
I played in Multiple matches where I literally could not win because someone 5 foot stepped diagonal and fled.
I got stunned for one round. They used that step, and retreated.I as a melee character couldn't ever reach them. Ten feet away?? Trip attack retreat repeat.
It is an exploitation, only a few people use it, but it is annoying when you find someone who does
I believe being tripped does not preclude you from taking an attack of opportunity. You still threaten when you are prone, provided you have a weapon.
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Well, the diagonal would certainly be frustrating if you had a reach weapon. More than anything, it sounds like a change in tactics are in order.
Do t forget that the rules are a compromise. The diagonal movement rules are one of those compromises. It's also important to remember that these compromises apply to everyone: PC and NPC.
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The Entire situation is as follows (as far as I can Recall)
1a. Opponent stuns(?) my character (incapable of movement until next round), attacks and moves back 5 feet
if you were stunned, then you dropped your weapon as well. You also can't take attacks of opportunity, because you don't threaten - you can't take an attack action (can't take ANY actions when stunned)
PFSRD:Stunned
A stunned creature drops everything held, can't take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).
Attackers receive a +4 bonus on attack rolls to perform combat maneuvers against a stunned opponent.
1b. Can't reach opponent, can't move... fights defensively instead.
you may mean, Full Defensive - you need to attack someone to fight defensively
2a. opponent uses reach weapon for trip, attack, five foot diagonal step
if he was two diagonals away, he would have needed a weapon with longer than a 10' reach
2b. I get up, five foot step back, still fighting defensively
assuming you had a weapon cord or something to get your weapon, or used a move to get it and then stand, then 5'step away, making you 10-15 apart depending on how you 5' stepped
there's a couple of easy fixes for this combat situation. Don't play his trip game. if you see him readying, why walk into it? This is when you draw a dart, javelin, or some thrown weapon and chuck it at him. Then he loses his action, has to 5' step into you, so you can get up, 5' step into him and attack him. Carry a tanglefoot bag and chuck it at him. ranged touch attack!
3a. he prepares to trip me when I reenter range.3b. I charge, get tripped and get attacked.
and basically this just repeats.
because he is a square diagonal, he is too far away to hit. I can't get to him without facing his 14-15 bonus to trip.
I had no contingency for the situation because I had never faced it before.
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Ignoring the question of 1b), the mistake you're making is 3b).
Which should read: Drop primary melee weapon, quickdraw longbow, and laugh as I shoot him full of arrows with a full attack.
Any melee fighter that doesn't have a backup ranged weapon to use as circumstances dictate is doing it wrong.
This too, but I like thrown weapons because it doesn't require the quickdraw ability and you keep your primary weapon in hand. Although, I agree you must have a backup bow. you'll be begging for one when you fight erinyes or other flying creatures that won't regularly engage in melee.
THank you all, And while the 5' diagonal is still hated by myself, I do see your ways of doing it, and hopefully this won't completely screw me over again.
According to the math, I can't summon exploding hellcats either.
become adept in Mathemagics.
THank you all, And while the 5' diagonal is still hated by myself, I do see your ways of doing it, and hopefully this won't completely screw me over again.I'm not yet sure I understand how you got screwed by 5 ft step or how you think you are able to avoid it now.
I still don't understand why the diagonal 5' is hated but the 'normal' 5' is fine. For close combat they are the same..
So you're upset that a reach weapon has more reach than a non-reach weapon?