Eidolon grappler and rules questions

[HectorVivis]

Okay, so I'm a DM of a group including a summoner who desire to make a constrictor eidolon.
But after some hours of research for some problems, I gave up and decided to ask on the board.

1. Do the +4 from eidolon's grab stacks with the +4 from the grab ?

Spoiler:

PRD, Eidolon wrote:

Grab(Ex): An eidolon becomes adept at grappling foes, gaining the grab ability. Pick bite, claw, pincers, slam, tail slap, or tentacle attacks. Whenever the eidolon makes a successful attack of the selected type, it can attempt a free combat maneuver check. If successful, the eidolon grapples the target. This ability only works on creatures of a size one category smaller than the eidolon or smaller. Eidolons with this evolution receive a +4 bonus on CMB checks made to grapple.

PRD, Universal Monster Rules wrote:

Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).

Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.

We don't think so, but better be sure.

2. Full attack and grab.

Spoiler:

PRD, Universal Monster Rules wrote:

Grab(Ex): [...]The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.[...]

a) Can you full attack without using this option ?
b) If yes, can you attack other ennemies than the one grappled ?
c) If yes again, can you grab another foe ?

I'm seriously confused by this stuff.

3. Maintain a grapple"

Spoiler:

PRD, Grapple wrote:

Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

+ Greater Grappler, to maintain a grapple by move action.

& Rapid Grappler, to make another grapple check as a swift action

a) Can you "maintain a grapple" in the round you initiate the grapple ?
It gives a good +5 to CMD on the next grapple check, the better way to continue grappling a foe while grab & stuff gives bonus to CMB only (If I understand it correctly).

b) What happen if you fail your first "maintain a grapple" check of the round?
They say you gain more grappling check, to a total of 3 by round.

Let's say Batman is a pro at grappling, he took Greater and Rapid Grappler. In a fight against Joker, he managed to grapple him in round 1. Joker failed to escape in his turn. Then it's round 2, and Batsy failed the first check of the 3 he got thanks to his feats. What happen ?
-> He can use another of his check to maintain the grapple
-> The Joker is considered as the grappler, then he can try to break the grapple with another of his check ?
-> Else ?

4. Natural attack and Improved Grapple
In a thread about the necessity of Improved Unarmed Strike to take Improved Grapple, someone implied James Jacob said a natural attack could be use as a prerequisite for Improved Grapple. I didn't find anything, and I think it's a no by RAW at least, but I'm curious.

5. Is there any "guide to grapple" ?
I was surprised to not find one in there for exemple.

Sidenote: Sorry if I misspelled and stuff, english is not my native language.

[Utii]

1: they just clearify for you what grab does, it should not stack.

2a: Yes, you can full attack and make grapple checks after each attack that hits, if one of these attacks hit and confirm grapple opponent is grappled. you can choose to take -20 on CMB to negate the grapple condition and only use that natural to hold the foe.

2b: yes but remember you then need to roll attacks and you have the grappled condition.

2c: Yes but either you let go of your first grappled foe or take a -20 on the CMB check.

3a: by RAW you can maintain in the first round if you use a standard action to grapple and move action to maintain, but some GM's find this OP and does not allow it in their game.

3b: greater grapple says that if you fail the first attempt but succed to second you still maintain the grapple. With rapid grappler now you can do 3 grapple checks to either Move, Damage, Pin or Tie-up.
as long as you dont fail both grapple checks you are still the grappler.

4: you need Improved Unarmed strike by RAW.

5: go to d20pfsrd.com and search for grapple there is a little flowchart

[HectorVivis]

Thank you for this, it will really help me.

1, 4. Ok, that was to be sure.

2. I think my player will have to rework his sheet then. :)

Utii wrote:

3b: greater grapple says that if you fail the first attempt but succed to second you still maintain the grapple.

Not exactly, and that's why I asked for precision, but I guess it's me being a little picky on words.

5. Thank you! I didn't see that one, it will be pretty useful.
And it made me realized something that is a little regretful: That +5 isn't on CMD, but CMB. The more I read about Grappling, the less I'm convinced: Enemies can run away too easily in the end. It's pretty much "Go big or go home" and try to tie up right in the first round. : /

Anyway I've got another question that bugs me now:
-> 6. Do you get the +5 to CMB just after the initial grappling check ?
I read it that you gain the benefice after the 3rd grappling check

Quote:

1st = Initiating

2nd = Maintain
3rd = Grapple stuff with +5

[Archaeik]

2c. I see nothing that restricts you from grappling with more than one creature at a time. In fact, several creatures are predicated on the assumption that you can.

The problem is that RAW, you can't freely maintain all of those grapples. The best you can do is 3 (since rapid grappler doesn't specify that the swift action must be used against the same target of the triggering successful maintain)

3a. I believe this is phrased incorrectly.
On the round that you establish a grapple, there is no further need to maintain (a failure on a 2nd check won't free your opponent). But Grater Grapple specifically grants you the ability to make a 2nd grapple check each round "to move, harm, or pin your opponent", so you do get to make an additional check using the maintain rules. However, you do not get the +5 circumstance bonus until your target has had an opportunity to break free.

Grapple:maneuver wrote:

If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds

3b. I want to point out that these are no longer opposed rolls. If you fail to maintain the target (and you) lose the grappled condition entirely.

As was pointed out, Greater Grapple changes this, your target is not free until you fail 2 checks, or fail 1 and then choose not to continue the grapple.

A few other things to keep in mind.
-You can always release your grapple as a free action to avoid the grappled condition penalties on subsequent attacks. (Get your constrict damage off of the free grab and immediately release)
-RAW, gaining the grappled condition leaves you with only a single free hand.(even in the dominant position)

Grappled: condition wrote:

In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform.

This isn't as big a deal for eidolons, but it may restrict full attack options if he's not releasing each as a free action.

-The eidolon's Grab entry differs from the UMR in that it still references creature's smaller than it. The ability references the UMR ability, but the strictest reading of RAW means the additional eidolon text is more specific than the UMR. You will need to decide how you want to run the ability. (This FAQ only amends the UMR)
Grab FAQ

[Alarox]

My Eidolon utilizes the same tactics, and I've gone through the same thing you are now about two months ago. I'll see if I can help...

1.) Nope. Eidolon's grab is considered its own thing with the Universal Monster Rules as a reference, just as Eidolon pounce is considered its own thing even though it shares the same name with something from the Universal Monster Rules.

2.)
A: Yes, but the full-attack can't use the limb that is holding the enemy.
B: Yes.
C: Yes.

3.)
A: Yes, but you need to have the action remaining to do so (move action with Greater Grapple)
B: You just need to succeed on either the standard action grapple check, or move action grapple check.

4.) You need Improved Unarmed Strike

5.) There's a flowchart here. It is what my group and I use pretty much every session to make sure we don't screw up.

There's also this handy guide someone made that explains it all nicely: http://www.dorkistan.com/dorkistan/PFRPG/misc/grapple.htm

-----------

Edit: As an aside, a full-attack isn't as good as rake attacks plus attack action (if your Eidolon has the capacity to get them).

Let's say you can roll 7 attacks on a full-attack. That's seven to roll your attack against an enemy's (usually high) AC.

Conversely, imagine rolling only two times against something's CMD with three attacks off of each?

-> Grapple Check -> Attack action -> 2 additional rakes -> repeat

You have +8 from Grab and the feats, plus +5 from the initial check, so +13 + CMB vs enemy's CMD. Pretty good. Potentially too good, but it's great against anything as long as you can get the initial grapple.

[Archaeik]

Alarox wrote:

Edit: As an aside, a full-attack isn't as good as rake attacks plus attack action (if your Eidolon has the capacity to get them).

Actually the eidolon Rake is pretty broken...

Rake (Ex) wrote:

An eidolon grows dangerous claws on its feet, allowing it to make 2 rake attacks on foes it is grappling. These attacks are primary attacks. The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target. These rake attacks deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). This evolution is only available to eidolons of the quadruped base form. This evolution counts as one natural attack toward te eidolon's maximum. The summoner must be at least 4th level before selecting this evolution.

There is no line about having to start the turn grappled. You could get these rake attacks on 5 of your other attacks with Grab. (Quads are stuck with the bite they come with and you can't take Grab evo more than once)

But, Constrict really isn't that much more inefficient, because it's automatic damage "equal" to the attack with the Grab(on a successful CMB roll of course); and it grants access to the Final Embrace feats (which no longer costs Ability Focus as a tax). This let's you add shaken (with no restriction on stacking toward panicked) and eventually double damage.

Both builds, you'll be making roughly the same number of Grab attempts, Rake just gets in more attacks(damage) a little bit sooner.

[HectorVivis]

Thank you everyone, it's really helpful.

But the deeper we go, the more I'm confused.

7.a Does the prone condition affect your CMD (I assume it affects you CMB, as any bonus/malus on attack rolls) ?
7.b If yes, does those penalties continue the next turn ?
7.c If yes, is it still the case if your grappler decide to "go up" and fly ?
7.d If no, does the "stand up" action, considered as a movement ?

I think it's tricky. You still have to deal with -4 to dexterity, so -2 to CMD, while you're grappled, and you can't move (you can still use move actions). So if someone trip you, and the "stand up" action is a movement, it's like to be doomed in most of the situations.

I hope you guys can bring again some new lights here.

[Archaeik]

7a

Combat Maneuver Defense wrote:

Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Defense (or CMD) that represents its ability to resist combat maneuvers. A creature's CMD is determined using the following formula:

CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier

The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Defense is as follows: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8. Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMD when resisting specific maneuvers. A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD.

7b.They continue as long as you are prone. (did I misunderstand the question?)

You remain prone until you take an action to stand up. (this is a move action that provokes unless you possess a special ability that changes it)

7c.I don't believe the prone condition exists if you are in the air. It seems to represent the difficulty you would have dodging attacks with the ground limiting your motion.

On the positive side, I believe an airborne opponent can still be pinned.

Keep in mind that the grappled opponent gets a free grapple check if you end the Move option over an inherently dangerous position.

Quote:

Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.

7d.Stand Up

Trip FAQ

From the combat section

Trip wrote:

You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Trip feat, or a similar ability, initiating a trip provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

If your attack exceeds the target's CMD, the target is knocked prone. If your attack fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has. Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.

[HectorVivis]

Sorry, I was unclear when I wrote this.

My question was about an eidolon with flight speed and grappling feats, who use a trip manoeuver then a grapple on a foe to make him fall. (With 3 grapple manoeuvre/round, I saw it is possible to "kill" one monster/round with that one).

7.b should have been "Are you still prone when you're grappled by someone?"
7.c should have been "If someone who's grappling you while you are prone move you in the air, are you still considered as prone ?"
7.d should have been "Because you are grappled, you can't move. Does the "stand up" action is a movement (not only a move action) ?"

The "stand up" question came because I considered it was the case before, while a monster tried to stand up in a grease effect, thus had to roll an acrobatic check. After considering the grappling case, I think I over-ruled this one, but better be sure.

Anyway, if a creature is considered "flying" because grappled by a flying creature, then I suppose the prone condition go away.

[Archaeik]

7b. I can't find a specific rule about this, but that also means RAW does not specifically prohibit it.
You should be able to strike at the prone target and grab ahold as well without changing their prone status.

7c.

Prone wrote:

The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

However, you will make the grapple->move check against their CMD on the ground(vs prone).

If they don't manage to reverse the grapple with their free check after the move, they will be prone again as a result of the fall.
Keep in mind, the grapple check to move only allows you to travel half your fly speed... you may need to make a Fly check depending on the motion you choose.

Fly wrote:

Check: You generally need only make a Fly check when you are attempting a complex maneuver. Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed. It can also turn up to 45 degrees by sacrificing 5 feet of movement, can rise at half speed at an angle of 45 degrees, and can descend at any angle at normal speed. Note that these restrictions only apply to movement taken during your current turn. At the beginning of the next turn, you can move in a different direction than you did the previous turn without making a check. Taking any action that violates these rules requires a Fly check. The difficulty of these maneuvers varies depending upon the maneuver you are attempting, as noted on the following chart.

Fly up at greater than 45° angle 20

I take this to mean that if you were to fly straight up(a 90° angle), that each square(5ft) essentially costs double(10ft of movement). This implies that you may only use a grapple->move check to travel 1/4 of your fly speed straight up. (If you can convince your GM that these separate restrictions actually let you spend your entire fly speed to move 1/2 your speed straight up, as neither strictly violates the stipulations of the other, more power to you.)

Also, pay attention to your carry capacity, lifting a creature off the ground may encumber you and cause additional penalties.

7d. Some (few) may disagree, but a grappled creature should be able to use a move action to "stand up". It will still provoke an AoO from anyone who threatens it(including the grappler).
This is because "cannot move" doesn't not mean "cannot take move actions". It means "cannot get away from the creature grappling it (by using a move speed)". However, if your GM finds it suitable to rule that "Stand Up" is an action that "requires two hands to perform" then it would be impossible for any creature with the "grappled" condition.
Now, the "pinned" condition, does specifically restrict the list of actions a creature can take and would prevent it from using the stand up action.

[HectorVivis]

Thank you for all those information and stuff.

I'm the GM of the group, I just bring here questions we were not able to answer by ourselves.

For the 1/4 fly speed to "lift" someone, I knew, but we are currently playing in mountain environment, so the 1 round-killing machine can happen. But I forgot about the carrying capacity, thank you to point that.

I'll probably rule as you said for prone, stand up and stuff. It's reasonable and don't need additional rules.

Thank you again!