|
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
|
There doesnt appear to be a particular knowledge skill for it?
Craft (alchemy) might cover it.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Craft (alchemy) if presented with the substance on its own, Heal if seeing the effects on a victim, typical monster knowledge check for a creature that uses the poison.
Most natural poisons (plants, animal venom) would fall under Knowledge(Nature). Magical poisons would more likely be Knowledge(Arcana). Monster poisons would be whichever knowledge skill is associated with the particular monster.
Pretty much nobody is going to have craft alchemy though...also its a bit weird. You don't need to know how to make potions to recognize a poison.
I'd consider using Perception, myself.
With Perception, you can determine when food is spoiled (low DC), and you can determine a potion's powers.
I'd prolly do a DC of 10+ the poison's DC to resist its effectss.
For example Black Lotus Extract would be a DC 30
Isn't that what prisoners are for?
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Alchemy =/= Potions
Alchemical items range from Tanglefoot Bags to Sneezing Powder to Poisons, and all sort of non-magical things in between.
Alchemy would be your catch-all poison knowledge skill.
In general, craft skills are uncommon for PCs. However, alchemy is one of the most common ones, IMO, and I consider it the most appropriate. In my current game the gunslinger has it. In my recently ended game my alchemist had it.
generally it depends on who is available.
In Organized Play they claim it's PvP to have others identify your poisons. You use a Heal Check during their symptoms to identify it.
Turning to spare NPCs is a tried and true method, halflings work well as their systems are closer to humans than gnomes or dwarves. Again, during their spasms use your Heal check to see what it is. Again, so many GMs take up character sheets on this one, that you really have to get clever.
Label the poison in question, "Something that halflings should not drink because it's too good for them" and sit it out on a table or in your friends pocket and wait. It won't take long for one of them to come by, "find" it, and quaff it. You can claim plausible deniability as you did label it and put it where it shouldn't be accessible.
Best of luck from your "alchemist" friends in Cheliaxia.
But the reason why craft alchemy doesnt make sense is that you dont need to know how to craft something, to identify it.
A jeweller does not need to know how to craft jewellery to identify the particular type of gemstone in a necklace infront of him. He gets that knowledge from years of selling and dealing in all kinds of jewellery and precious gems.
Similarly a fighter does not need to know how to craft weapons to identify the sword infront of him (talking about type of sword, and not magical identifying).
An assassin may be a master of using poisons, but he doesnt necessarily need to know how to make it...he might get it from his contact or his guild, which is a lot more convenient than making it himself.
Im guessing that once again, paizo hasnt made any official ruling on this?
By taste.
Seriously, though, it depends on what kind of poison it is. Poison from an animal or plant may be covered under Nature, poison from a mold or subterranean creature may be covered under Dungeoneering. All poisons would probably be covered under Craft(Alchemy). From there, you may be able to get circumstance bonuses like "testing" the potion on a subject (possibly even yourself if you feel you can swing the fort save.
As previously stated;
Detect Poison spell (which calls out WIS Chk or Craft:Alchemy DC20). Detection is at range and automatic (5ft cube|item|creature) though identification takes the above roll and is instantaneous (so you cannot "scan" using the spell like Detect Magic).
Craft: alchemy skill on it's own as this is used to craft poisons. Craft DCs are listed on the Poisons table under afflictions. Most don't have a DC as high as 20 and you would naturally assume some parity in the Craft DCs.
Heal skill works based on the symptoms of the patient. Usually it's too late for that unless you are "on scene" and hopefully you have a healers kit and some alchemical potions available.
The rest falls somewhat in the GM's gray area.
I agree that if you are lucky, the type might fall under another appropriate Knowledge skill, like Nature, Dungeoneering, Arcana, Religion ...
A Knowledge(X) check where X covers the source of the poison should work. Any character with Craft(Alchemy) should be able to identify a poison as well, since they can craft it. Any class with poison use can be argued to also be able to identify, but baring RAW on that, I would give them a skill mod of their class level to identify a poison. Lastly, I agree the Heal skill can ID it's effects upon someone.
Question wrote: Pretty much nobody is going to have craft alchemy though...also its a bit weird. In my current campaign, my PC has Craft(Alchemy), and at least two other PCs have had it. I also have Craft(Weapons), and another character has Craft(Jewelry). I would not call it nobody, since half the characters have crafting skills. It is really something quite suitable for role playing, and for making ammunition on the road, or making a small profit to get minor spending cash when broke.
/cevah
IMO, Craft (Alchemy) wouldn't be used to identify a poison any more than Craft (Carpentry) would be used to determine the structural soundness of a wooden bridge (that's what Knowledge (Engineering) is for) or Profession (Cartographer) would be used to identify a geographical landmark (that's Knowledge (Geography)).
In short, the Craft skill is for crafting, and the Knowledge skill is for knowledge. Professionals would likely have ranks in related Craft, Profession, and Knowledge skills (A mapmaker, for example, would have ranks in Profession (Cartography) and Knowledge (Geography)), but all three are for very different things.
I dont think man made poisons would fall under any knowledge checks by association though?
Most PCs are starved for skill points as it is, its pretty unusual to have significant points in stuff like craft or profession, given their limited usefulness to the typical adventurer. If your campaign lets you use those skills effectively, good for you, but that requires the DM to make leeway for it.
This might be an important question for the upcoming Investigator class, too. In fact, I think they're discussing it on that thread.
Quantum Steve wrote: IMO, Craft (Alchemy) wouldn't be used to identify a poison any more than Craft (Carpentry) would be used to determine the structural soundness of a wooden bridge (that's what Knowledge (Engineering) is for) or Profession (Cartographer) would be used to identify a geographical landmark (that's Knowledge (Geography)).
In short, the Craft skill is for crafting, and the Knowledge skill is for knowledge. Professionals would likely have ranks in related Craft, Profession, and Knowledge skills (A mapmaker, for example, would have ranks in Profession (Cartography) and Knowledge (Geography)), but all three are for very different things.
Your analogy of the carpenter vs. bridge fails since carpenters don't design bridges. At best they put something together that works.
In my opinion, if you can make something, you need to be able to identify it, otherwise how do you know if you succeeded? Is it the only way to identify? No, there are many ways.
I would certainly expect a weapon-maker to be able to identify weapons of the type(s) he make(s). Why should I not expect the same of one who makes poisons?
/cevah
Quantum Steve wrote: IMO, Craft (Alchemy) wouldn't be used to identify a poison any more than Craft (Carpentry) would be used to determine the structural soundness of a wooden bridge (that's what Knowledge (Engineering) is for) or Profession (Cartographer) would be used to identify a geographical landmark (that's Knowledge (Geography))... clearly I disagree, as do several existing spells.
Question wrote: I don't think man made poisons would fall under any knowledge checks by association though?
Most PCs are starved for skill points as it is...
all poisons that you apply to a blade and such are "man-made" as they have Craft(alchemy) DC Checks to make. So Craft(alchemy) becomes the skill to identify them.
The reason some knowledge checks would be secondary is they are used to identify creatures and ask questions about their special powers or vulnerabilities and get answers, poison being the special power in question. So you can see the connection to Purple Worm Poison is Know(Arcana) for a Magical Beast DC 10 +12(CR) for special powers(poison) or vulnerabilities. You'd assume that DC22 is the minimum, with +5 to +10 DC for difficulty as it is no longer in it's natural form. This ability to make this check lies in the GM's gray area as it's not specifically called out in the books.
I don't think that lack of skill points is justification for allowing some cross-referencing in skills.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
How about reading the label? Seriously, how is anyone supposed to keep track of all their potions and poisons without labelling them? Don't they have a WHIMIS rep?
Question wrote: Pretty much nobody is going to have craft alchemy though...also its a bit weird. You don't need to know how to make potions to recognize a poison. I don't know how your games are, but in mines there's always one or two guys with some craft, and alchemy is the most common one (come on, see all that awesome stuff you can do with it! @_@)
To know if something is a poison, maybe you don't need. To identify what type, then I think you need some specific knowledge, and as said earlier, if you can't identify what you can craft, then there is a problem.
Just remember some poisons are just pain in the ass to identify, or even just to be identified as poisons. Just watch some TV shows or investigation thrillers, and you'll probably find the typical "The previous coroner didn't check for poisons, so everyone think he died from a heart attack!".
My guess is it even more difficult in a fantasy world, with magical beasts and exotic monsters at every corner of a dungeon.
I like the previous things said:
-Craft (alchemy) if you got a vial of this stuff.
-Heal if you try to find the reason the guy is dying/is dead.
-Knowledge (X creature) when you're in an encounter with the beast, or for example if someone tells you "maybe it's that beast in the area who makes him ill?"
For perception, I don't know. Probably to find out that you shouldn't drink the stuff, but I don't think it should be more than that.
Azothath wrote: Question wrote: I don't think man made poisons would fall under any knowledge checks by association though?
Most PCs are starved for skill points as it is...
all poisons that you apply to a blade and such are "man-made" as they have Craft(alchemy) DC Checks to make. So Craft(alchemy) becomes the skill to identify them.
The reason some knowledge checks would be secondary is they are used to identify creatures and ask questions about their special powers or vulnerabilities and get answers, poison being the special power in question. So you can see the connection to Purple Worm Poison is Know(Arcana) for a Magical Beast DC 10 +12(CR) for special powers(poison) or vulnerabilities. You'd assume that DC22 is the minimum, with +5 to +10 DC for difficulty as it is no longer in it's natural form. This ability to make this check lies in the GM's gray area as it's not specifically called out in the books.
I don't think that lack of skill points is justification for allowing some cross-referencing in skills. Again, that doesnt really makes sense because you don't need to know how to craft something to identify it...this is especially confusing for classes like the rogue/ninja that have no way to identify poisons...
Question wrote: Again, that doesnt really makes sense because you don't need to know how to craft something to identify it...this is especially confusing for classes like the rogue/ninja that have no way to identify poisons... Umm, Why don't they? They both have lots of skill points AND craft is a class skill. What is stopping them from taking the skill?
Also not all rogues/ninjas deal with poison.
Why should they automatically know something w/o spending the appropriate ranks in a skill and making rolls for it?
Profession(toxicologist)
Though honestly I have no idea. I would use Knowledge(Arcana), Knowledge(Nature) and Heal depending on the circumstances.
Question wrote: ... that doesnt really makes sense because you don't need to know how to craft something to identify it...this is especially confusing for classes like the rogue/ninja that have no way to identify poisons... hmmm... it's the primary way to do so via symmetry... make it and identify it. Makes perfect sense.
Craft (carpentry) to identify a piece of federalist furniture as well as make one. Appraisal would mean you are familiar with what a collector or normal person would value such an item at.
If you are thinking about Poison Use, that talent/feat/class ability allows you to use poison without the chance of poisoning yourself.
Rouges would have no idea whether a poison they bought was actually what they thought it was, just like a commoner doesn't know what chemicals are in their medication.
Darkthorne68 wrote: Question wrote: Again, that doesnt really makes sense because you don't need to know how to craft something to identify it...this is especially confusing for classes like the rogue/ninja that have no way to identify poisons... Umm, Why don't they? They both have lots of skill points AND craft is a class skill. What is stopping them from taking the skill?
Also not all rogues/ninjas deal with poison.
Why should they automatically know something w/o spending the appropriate ranks in a skill and making rolls for it? Why would a rogue/ninja be forced to learn how to craft alchemical items just to identify poisons?
I know ninjas are trained in the use of poisons by default, not sure about rogues.
Lets say you are a ninja. You use poisons all the time. You dont actually know how to make them, because thats a waste of time. You spend your time training to kill people, other people make the poisons for you.
You encounter a poison, but you have no idea how to identify it...unless you start learning how to craft tanglefoot bags.
???
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Because Pathfinder got rid of Craft (Poisonmaking) and rolled it into Craft (Alchemy).
Just because you know how to shoot a gun (use poison) does not mean you know how to repair a gun or make replacement ammunition, or that you studied ballistics/forensics and can identify the type of gun/bullets based on the wounds caused. Manufactured poisons are chemical substances; identification and creation of chemical substances is covered by Craft (Alchemy) in the game. Craft (Alchemy) is a more general skill than Craft (Poisonmaking); you can make poisons with Craft (Alchemy), as well as other substances.
Let me turn your argument on its head: Should someone who studied applied/magical chemistry, who can make all sorts of substances (both for ingestion and other uses, including antitoxins) not be able to identify a substance just because it's harmful to living creatures (toxic/poisonous)? Why should someone who has no idea what's in a substance be able to identify it? Can you tell the difference between the various motor oil weights, or whether they're synthetic or not, just by looking at it?
Recent threads in Rules Questions
|
