Priest. We already have Warpriests. They're called Clerics and Paladins.Well by that logic, we already have priests, too. They're called Clerics and Oracles.
Exactly. The concept is full. Why does Warpriest exist then? That's all I wanna know.
Because people wanted a non-LG paladin. That is, someone who fights well and gets a lot of nifty abilities. That's what they're going for. There's a huge psychological impediment with being a 9th level caster and being a non-LG holy warrior for most people.
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If that was really the niche they were going for--and I think Cheapy is right--then it should have been a full BAB, 4 level caster like the Paladin with less specific abilities. Or something like the Unearthed Arcana Paladins of Liberation/Slaughter/Tyranny where they gave alignment based alterations to Paladins.
What they did instead was the Crusader Cleric with less spells but more feats. What's the point?
I say lets teh priest use armor, that woudl diferentiate it from the full arcane casters. Besides a lot of divine spells are touch range, A good AC helps to stay in melee and buff their allies and certainly would not be too safe sine they woudl have d6 for hit points.
Besides, If the class only have light amor rpoficiency I would say that the majority of players woudl not use heavier armors just because.
I'd say a 'priest' should be given bonus feats allowing them to do more metamagic things ala wizard.
Obviously Reach Spell would be almost as important to him as Quicken Spell is.
Bonus feats, and powers comparable to Wizard Specialization schools or Arcanists exploits which allow more versatile uses of Magic rather than going all super buffy and trying to remake clericzilla.
with 1/2 BAB and d6 I do not thin clericzilla woudl be a problem in pathfinder.
I'm saying the way that cleric spells work inspire someone to try and go clericzilla, considering most of their strong spells are touches, which leads to building a guy that can walk up to an enemy and touch him and live to see the next round inspiring the use of armor and even weapons with spell storing and the like. At that point Reach Spell is a feat tax, so bonus metamagic feats not only flavorfully and mechanically plays up the magic using over close combat side of things, but it also eliminates that feat tax.
Because people wanted a non-LG paladin. That is, someone who fights well and gets a lot of nifty abilities. That's what they're going for. There's a huge psychological impediment with being a 9th level caster and being a non-LG holy warrior for most people.
I agree with you that that is what people want, but it's clearly not what the class was designed to accomplish. The only way they'll get the "non-LG Paladin" is to practically rewrite from scratch.
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I have to admit, I was totally in the paladin-for-all-flavors boat and was surprised to see what it actually was.
Wasn't even expecting it to be something equal to a paladin, just something that could fulfill a "holy knight" role for all gods. As is, I'm a bit at a loss about how to view it alongside inquisitors, who were filling that role to a point.
Another vote for Priest. We've got plenty of different classes that can function as warrior-priests: paladins, anti-paladins, clerics, inquisitors, oracles-even druids and rangers. That particular niche can be filled in a variety of ways. But the Priest: a lightly/nonarmored divine caster, who engages in combat not through martial might but through magic or divine blessings, that's an area we lack. The oracle can function in some ways like that, depending on the build. But there's definitely room for improvement. The priest is likely going to need a revised version of the cleric spell list, one with more proactive spells and less reactive spells. Also, with so many classes getting pool mechanics or whatnot, the priest might do well with a pool of divine energy that is renewed each day. This pool could be used to buff allies, remove debuffs, or perhaps cast a limited number of spells spontaneously.
Most importantly, the class is going to need some way of appealing to a large variety of players. The cleric spell list is too reactive and limiting compared to the wizard spell list for the priest to use the cleric list verbatim. They might instead get to choose a limited number of spells to add to their list as they advance, similar to the magus, to represent their particular specialty. A typical priestly scholar might keep adding useful divinations to his list, while a wandering priest who sees many dangers might add a few useful protective spells. A priest who specializes in ancient battles just might know a few combat spells. And so on.
Most importantly, the class is going to need some way of appealing to a large variety of players. The cleric spell list is too reactive and limiting compared to the wizard spell list for the priest to use the cleric list verbatim. They might instead get to choose a limited number of spells to add to their list as they advance, similar to the magus, to represent their particular specialty. A typical priestly scholar might keep adding useful divinations to his list, while a wandering priest who sees many dangers might add a few useful protective spells. A priest who specializes in ancient battles just might know a few combat spells. And so on.
Soo..... Domain Spells? ;)
I realize it's not what you meant, but it's basically what you described. How else do you see this spell choice working?
Most importantly, the class is going to need some way of appealing to a large variety of players. The cleric spell list is too reactive and limiting compared to the wizard spell list for the priest to use the cleric list verbatim. They might instead get to choose a limited number of spells to add to their list as they advance, similar to the magus, to represent their particular specialty. A typical priestly scholar might keep adding useful divinations to his list, while a wandering priest who sees many dangers might add a few useful protective spells. A priest who specializes in ancient battles just might know a few combat spells. And so on.Soo..... Domain Spells? ;)
I realize it's not what you meant, but it's basically what you described. How else do you see this spell choice working?
I think priests should have access to all the domain spells and be able to prepare them like a wizard.
The penalty to initiative really hurts though.The second one, well, you just take a look at what armor proficiency means: you take a penalty to attack rolls and Str/Dex based ability/skill checks equal to the ACP.
Well, OK. So, I don't plan on attacking with a weapon, so the penalty doesn't matter. I can just wind walk instead of climb.
Well, may as well put armor on as it doesn't really inconvenience me, and gives a huge boost to AC and survivability, especially once I get mithral breastplate.
So now our caster cleric, our divine wizard, is in armor because the penalties for nonproficiency don't matter to him. And there goes out balancing factor.
Well, you're a reactive caster. Wizards have a lot of proactive spells. Clerics... Considerably less. So init isn't so important. In fact, you kind of want to go later if you're going to be clearing conditions.
But yea, there are times where it will hurt. But mitral breast plate has -1 ACP, right?
FWIW, I wasn't pulling that out of my rearend. Sean explains the niche here.
I think the Cleric is out of place as it is. I feel it should be:
Full Base Attack - 4th level spells
3/4 Base Attack - 6th level spells
1/2 Base Attack - 9th level spellsThat gives a sliding scale between combat characters with a bit of casting ability, and full casters. Given how powerful full casters are, I don't have a problem giving them a mediocre chassis. But they didn't come in 3E with that thought so its a bit late now.
Put me at +1 for the priest idea, but he would have to have some nice abilities to draw people away from the 3/4 BAB and armor proficiency.
I think there's some merit to that (emphasis on some), but there's far greater emphasis on the power of the spell list itself than inherent power with 9th level spells.
I think it'd be exceptionally difficult to have a 9th level spellcaster with full BAB balanced, but blanket logic doesn't do anyone favors.
After considering these many thoughtful posts: another vote for Priest. At least the 1/2 BAB with lots of spells and lots of extra metamagic/crafting/channelling feats, more skills, and no armor.
I'm not sure how specialization would look: a hybrid of schools/domains? I think it would need access to some better damage spells than the cleric list currently offers however, to make up for the loss of combat capability. Maybe the school/domains would give bonus spells of an appropriate type or there would be a mechanic to allow dipping into arcane spells. Something to make it different from oracle as well.
I do like it when each core class has a unique but comparable mechanic that defines it, and a squishy priest could certainly do that.
One idea: a mechanic similar to the Summoner but focused on Planar Binding of outsiders ("Intercessors?") that could be used regularly (as opposed to a familiar which would be out of place) like a druid's companion, paladin's mount, summoner's eidolon, etc. to help keep the priest safe or do his/her bidding.
One last idea: mirror the arcanist approach to spells: you can spontaneously cast any spell you've prepared for that day. Again, just to be different--I'm not sold on it. But it would make a priest a more versatile caster than just having spontaneous cure spells.
Given that there are so many personal targeted buff spells on the cleric list it would be nice if there was a way to spread those around. Like an aura effect or something. Get buffed up and anyone with in 10-15-20 feet or what have you gains the benefits of that spell. Perhaps the distance increases with caster level or a feat of some sort.
So for example, a Priest casts Divine Favor, Protection from Evil, and Comprehend Languages. Somehow, everyone with in a certain distance gets +1/+1 Hit/DMG, +2AC vs evil, and can understand what the goblins are saying. If cure light wounds could have even a partial effect within that radius it would make combat healing far more viable an option.
I certainly agree that more spell slots would be warranted. As many or perhaps more than the sorcerer per level.
Yes! I love the idea of a "priest" class. Here are some of my thoughts (I apologize for any redundancy from others posts):
I'm thinking a cleric/bard hybrid. Either a better version of a "cloistered" cleric or maybe a channel energy specialist that uses different "auras" with special effects and/or powers.
Also, I understand that the warpriest is attempting to fill the role of not alignment restricted holy warrior but I think it should be more of a paladin-ish hybrid (perhaps cavalier?) rather than cleric/fighter. I really like the idea of having different variant "paladins" depending upon deity and/or alignment. But that debate is probably better served elsewhere.
FWIW, Rite Publishing has a caster version of the cleric that focuses on channeling. It can be found here.
The penalty to attack rolls will apply to spells as well, though since those are touch attacks it will matter less.
A speed decrease is pretty unpleasant for a casting-focused character, as they need to be in position, and the cleric list doesn't have a whole lot of speed enhancers (those are mostly on the wizard and druid lists).
Still, I can see where you're coming from. I've never had anybody even consider wearing armor they weren't proficient with, so that's never come up for me.
I have a character I'm considering wearing armor I'm not proficient in. I've got a Oracle of Metal and if I'm planning to take Mitheral Full plate even though I'm not proficient in heavy armor. With an ACP reduced to 0 being non proficient isn't an issue. I was considering taking heavy prof via a revelation till I noticed that.
I love the idea of a ff style white mage and would prefer it. Cleric/Bard is kinda brilliant. Although I think a Warpriest or Warpriesty class would work more smoothly and stand out as a cleric/monk. We have an Eastern fighter and rogue type but no eastern casters.
I love the idea of a ff style white mage and would prefer it. Cleric/Bard is kinda brilliant. Although I think a Warpriest or Warpriesty class would work more smoothly and stand out as a cleric/monk. We have an Eastern fighter and rogue type but no eastern casters.
THIS. THIS SO MUCH. rather than a fighter/cleric a monk/cleric would work so much better. I am actually really disappointed that the only monk hybrid we have is a fighter/monk. we already have a lot of options for that already and they are all boring. The warpriest is the perfect opportunity to FINALLY give us a decent spellcasting monk the same way we got a spellcaster fighter from the magus.
For starters, WIS is a major stat for both classes. then we have the Ki system which could work to power divine magic without the need to actually bring gods into the mix. I would love a divine spellcaster who uses the inherent power of life itself to then punch things in the face with an energy fist. the buffs and combat casting a-la Magus would help with the Monks power issues and the ability to heal himself quickly deals with the AC problems. throw in the style system, tack on specialized "philosophies" that grant abilities and create a few spells and feats for it and you have a formidable class
Put my vote on "Priest" rather than "Warpriest".
Clerics already do the Combative priest theme fine. Their bab and HD is nothing to snuff at and with their own magic support they can outdo combat focused classes, at least for a little while. Then theres Archeypes that help clerics fight even better.
Oracles are pretty much identical sept they dont come with the "Healbot" sticker that gets all too easily stuck to the cleric.
And if youre less a "Priest" and more a "War" kinda guy then theres Paladins, theres also Inquisitors, though they arent striktly speaking a divine class, but there they are.
So, put altogether, Pathfinder has too many 3/4 BAB d8 HD classes that do something halfway already, and ACG is prolly gonna introduce at least 5-6 more, so please differentiate and give us at least one 1/2 bab 1d6 HD class with full focus on spellcasting or some grand caster-type ability.
Heres an Idea:
Druids have the ability to wild shape, which is essentially just exclusive access to a pool of magic to cast only one theme of spells (self polymorph).
Simplified breakdown of Wild shape:
A Spell like ability usable several times per day.
The spell cast varies with level, the eventual complete list is
Beast shape 1, 2 & 3. Plant shape 1 & 2. Elemental form 1 & 2 & 3
The ability is usable 1/Day at 4th level and 1 extra time per 2 levels thereafter.
The eventual maximums for the ability (Ignoring Infinite usability at 20th level) are: You can use the ability 8 times per day, replicating up to a 7th level spell.
After noting the druids wild shape, consider the following class idea:
Priest class as a full casting class with the following:
Casts from the Cleric spell list. Gains spells known at a similar rate to Wizards, but instead of Writing spells into a book they choose a "Divine portfolio".
Workings of the "Divine Portfolio", start with 1 Domain, gain no Domain powers but its Domain spells are added to the Priests list of spells known. Every 4 levels the Priest learns a new Divine portfolio. At 6th level the Priest may put together a "custom" Domain with Spells of his choosing and add it to his folio. The only limit to Domains selected is that you cant learn diametrically opposed alignments to your own (No chaos if youre lawfull, no good if youre evil).
There will be a feat that grants an extra Divine portfolio.
There might be feat that allows the priest to replace spells from his custom Divine Portfolio with spells from the Wizard/Sor spell list.
The priest would have a fairly low amount of spells per day (Equal to current cleric, minus Domain spells.
Instead they would gain "Divine retribution".
"Divine retribution" is a pool of pre-selected spells that the Priest has very little control over. Every spell in the pool deals damage (preferably by the bucket) or heals damage (in shovelfulls, on par with Channel). For the mechanics think Wild shape, (Remember, all Wild shape does is give you a very limited spell selection, and a pool of uses/day to spend on casting those spells), but the Priests selection would have spells like Fireball, Flame strike (Blasty spells that represent divine retribution) and Cure serious wounds, Cure light-Mass (Heal spells, initially I only wanted damage spells in the Divine retribution pool. but I guess a Divine class sould have easy access to healing somewhere).
There would be a feat to gain extra uses of his ability daily.
There would be a feat to add spells to the spell selection of this ability (perhaps hand picked, perhaps there would be several feats with small pre-picked spell lists).
Example iteration of this class feature:
Usable 1 per day / 2 levels, unlocks and starts progressing at 4th level.
List of castable spells depending on class level: Fireball(4th), Cure seroius wounds(4th), Wall of fire(6th), Ice Storm(6th), Cure Critical(6th), Flame strike (8th), Breath of Life(8th), Cure light Mass(8th), and so on up to 7th level spells +-extra spells depending on possible class features and feats.
Other class features?
I could go on-and on detailing this class, but that would make this a severely long fanpost about a class I want and have possibly made myself, knowing the above is enough, then just add a random smattering of minor class feature for flavor, perhaps Scribe scroll for free, mabe a bonus to knowledge (religion), and so on.
Summary:
1/2 bab.
D6 HD.
2 Sp/level.
Small selection of class skills.
No armor prof.
Small selection of simple weapons.
Perhaps "Divine spell failure"?.
Limited number of spells known (Supplemented by gradually adding several Domain spells to spells known of each spell level).
Limited number of spells per day (Supplemented by adding spammable damage/healing that subtract from a daily pool seperate from his Spells per day.)
Flashy extraordinary or Spell like class feature that can be summarised as a pool that the priest generates extra daily damage and healing spells from.
Set of secondary and tertiary class features that give an academic priestly flavor.
Differences/Likenesses to existing classes:
Cleric spell list.
No Armor prof.
Less versatility than cleric (less spells known, low Bab, low hp).
More total spellcasting daily than cleric.
Blasting cues from Arcane casters.
Limited ability to cross between spell lists (through domains, Divine retribution & feats).
Expanding this Priest type:
Archetypes:
Swap around tertiary abilities to get non-scholarly priests, village priests, swamp priests (divine witches?).
Modify Divine retribution to get Evil priests, spontaneous alignment summoning, Mystic savants, Planar traveling heralds. Controller Priests with Stuff like Dominate person in their Divine retrubution pool.
Reduce divine retribution to get "Expanded spellcasting" (Reverse of Diminished Spellcasting, see Crusader cleric archetype, Kensai Magus archetype.)
Niche filled:
Divine Wizards.
Academic Divine class.
Low hp backliner.
Maybe instead of just a bunch of bonus spells, how about an ability - a divine strike of some sort. Make it really strong, but only have a certain number of uses per day. Or equal to a modifier. Like 1d10 per level or something. Pure Holy/unholy energy.