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Hey everyone!
So to start out, it's important to note that probably a huge percentage of swashbucklers with GMs who allow it will be dervish dancing or using an agile weapon, but as Cheapy said in his ninja post to the blog announcing the playtest, I'm not going to assume that. Neither will I assume Crane Style. I'm just going to assume a goofy Strength-based swashbuckler that always takes the same stats as the fighter. If you use Agile or Dervish Dance, your swashbuckler will keep exactly the same offense as Sally Swashbuckler below while having better of lots of other stuff from Dex.
So let's take a look at Sally Swash and Fighter Fred. Fighter Fred read on the forums that falchion crit range is eventually king and that two-handing is the strongest style, so that's where he's at. Sally Swash is going to take the exact same items as Fred and the exact same stats, but just be a swashbuckler. Oh, and she's so certain that her class has numbers better than Fred (eventually) that she will never spend any panache. She just needs Precise Strike and Swashbuckler Weapon Training.
Alright, so right out the gate, Fred is in the lead because Sally doesn't have Precise Strike yet. They always have identical to-hit:
Level 1--Assuming 18 Strength, Fred is ahead in damage by 2 points from 1.5x Strength and 1 point from Power Attack, plus 1.5 points of average damage from a falchion over a rapier. So Fred is up by 4.5.
Level 2--Fred is still up by 4.5
Level 3--Sally adds 3 but it's precision, so Fred is up 1.5 + a little more since now we need to factor crits. Let's give Fred the advantage and assume crits auto-confirm. This gives him another .675 advantage, so he's up by 2.175.
Level 4--Sally gets 1 more but Fred's Power Attack increases. This pushes Fred's advantage up to 2.325
Level 5--Sally gets 1 more beyond Fred, so counting crits super-favorably again, Fred's advantage is 1.325
Level 6--Same as last time, Fred's advantage is .325.
Level 7--Sally is ahead now by .675
Level 8--By this point they certainly have at least 22 Strength and Power Attack goes up, so Fred pulls ahead again, now .625 ahead. However, I'm also going to give them both Improved Critical (EDIT because Eric Clingenpeel is smart--Sally had IC since level 5!), which gives Fred even more of an advantage with our super-Fred-biased crit math. Fred is now 1.525 ahead.
Level 9--Sally pulls Fred's advantage down to .525.
Level 10--Sally takes the lead by .475
Level 11--Sally is now ahead by 1.475
Level 12--Power Attack increases, so Sally is only .175 ahead. Also, surely they have at least 26 Strength by now, so Fred grabs another advantage going up to 1.125
Level 13--Fred is .125 ahead
Level 14--Sally is .875 ahead
Level 15--Sally is 1.875 ahead
Level 16--Power Attack increases so Fred gets back some, but Sally is still 1.575 ahead
Level 17--Sally is 2.575 ahead
Level 18--Sally is 3.575 ahead
Level 19--Sally is 4.575 ahead
Level 20--Capstones are weird business. In this case, they do push Fred ahead because the x3 multiplier is much less useful for Sally. Also they probably wish to 34 Strength with 5 wishes because it's level 20, so why not. Also Power Attack. Sally is now ahead .675 before the capstone, but Fred gains an incredible 3.6 advantage from the capstone and takes the lead to end it 2.925 ahead.
Analysis in the next post.
Wait a sec, you are factoring in 3 damage per stack in power attack. Because when 2 handing you get 3 damage per 1 attack bonus traded.
So keeping score here:
Levels where Sally is Ahead:9
Levels where Fred is Ahead:11
So roughly about even unless I'm wrong in the levels where oen is slightly better than the other.
First Refinement:
Sally is ahead at level 7, 10, 11, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19. This is with numerous liberties taken that advantage Fred, such as assuming that all crits auto-confirm and that Sally never spends panache or uses any abilities besides Precise Strike and Swashbuckler Weapon Training.
Considering that if the two of them always roll the same on a d20, a confirmation for Sally nets her a panache point every time Fred gets that damage advantage, and Sally can spend 1 panache point to double her static damage (essentially she could make it "seem" to multiply on a crit by always applying to crits, but she has more versatility because she can double it on non crits if she wants), it is highly unfair to Sally to not let her spend panache points. If Sally gets to use panache points solely to double her damage from Precise Strikes whenever she crits and continues ignoring all other deeds, she gains .15 damage per level until keen then .3 per level, taking the advantage at levels 6, 8, 9, 12, 13, and even 20 and growing a LARGE advantage at the levels where she already had advantage. To give a full recap on the levels she is ahead, they are ALL LEVELS 6 and up including 20 (despite Fred picking up a large gain)! This is still being mean to Sally because she also gets panache when dropping a foe. Sally actually averages an amazing 11.05 extra damage per hit compared to Fred at her best level (level 19).
So keeping score here:
Levels where Sally is Ahead:9
Levels where Fred is Ahead:11
So roughly about even unless I'm wrong in the levels where oen is slightly better than the other.
Ah, stay tuned though--I was very very mean to Sally. I'm going to keep adding more for her.
Of course, when you take into account the fact that Precise Strike stops working on undead, elementals, constructs, and oozes, that's a serious hit to "average" damage.
Of course, when you take into account the fact that Precise Strike stops working on undead, elementals, constructs, and oozes, that's a serious hit to "average" damage.
Only elementals and oozes.
EDIT: Oh man, it's randomly not working on non-living!
Also dont forget the fighter is 30 speed with full plate by level 6 while the swashbuckler is either wallowing in low ac or wearing medium and 20 speed. Also the fighter isnt as multi stat dependent and wont need a 14 CHA. Also dont forget weapon specialization and greater weapon specialization.
Precise Strike only works on living creatures with discernable anatomies. It's more restrictive than sneak attack.
Sally vs Fred level by level, where Sally spends one panache per crit to double her Precise Strike damage:
Level 1-- Fred is up by 4.5.
Level 2--Fred is still up by 4.5
Level 3--Fred is up 1.725
Level 4--Fred up 1.725
Level 5--Fred up .575
Level 6--Sally up .575
Level 7--Sally is ahead now by 1.725
Level 8--Sally up .65
Level 9--Sally up 1.95
Level 10--Sally up 3.25
Level 11--Sally is now ahead by 4.55
Level 12--Sally up 3.25
Level 13--Sally up 4.55
Level 14--Sally is 5.85 ahead
Level 15--Sally is 7.15 ahead
Level 16--Sally still up 7.15
Level 17--Sally is 8.45
Level 18--Sally is 9.75 ahead
Level 19--Sally is 11.05 ahead
Level 20--Sally is .65 ahead
Can we see the math at levels 4, 11, and 16?
Also dont forget the fighter is 30 speed with full plate by level 6 while the swashbuckler is either wallowing in low ac or wearing medium and 20 speed. Also the fighter isnt as multi stat dependent and wont need a 14 CHA. Also dont forget weapon specialization and greater weapon specialization.
Only the movement speed point applies. Sally can have 7 Charisma and she will still have 1 panache, which is sufficient for this weird version where she never uses panache unless she crits. Sally can and does take weapon specialization and greater. For some reason swash qualifies.
Can we see the math at levels 4, 11, and 16?
For the new chart including spending one panache per crit to double Precise Strike?
I'd be curious to know their feats; namely because right now I'm not sure who is getting damage from where (do they both use power attack?). An this is not counting the fact that precise strike doesnt work (at all) against a decent amount of enemies.
Plus, in the end, fred wins. A few levels of superior damage honestly isnt much in the long run. They do seem pretty much equal at this stage. Did you count the fact fred can easily pay for "gloves of dueling" that work for him (+2 hit/+2 damage) but not for the swashbuckler.
I'd be curious to know their feats; namely because right now I'm not sure who is getting damage from where (do they both use power attack?). An this is not counting the fact that precise strike doesnt work (at all) against a decent amount of enemies.
Plus, in the end, fred wins. A few levels of superior damage honestly isnt much in the long run. They do seem pretty much equal at this stage. Did you count the fact fred can easily pay for "gloves of dueling" that work for him (+2 hit/+2 damage) but not for the swashbuckler.
They both have enough feats to both take all relevant attack and damage enhancing feats, so they both do. Fred has other feats for like Iron Will. Sally has a ton of features I'm not touching. Anyway, I'm not counting gloves of dueling for the same reason I didn't give Sally Dervish Dance or Crane Style.
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Sally can't just use panache when she crits, though, not without actually paying the points for Charisma 14. Her panache can never go above 1 unless her Charisma modifier does, so the panache gain from a crit is lost unless she has already spent it - and at that point, she's lost *all* her precise strike damage *until* that crit happens. This is a non-trivial flaw in your analysis.
Sally can't just use panache when she crits, though, not without actually paying the points for Charisma 14. Her panache can never go above 1 unless her Charisma modifier does, so the panache gain from a crit is lost unless she has already spent it - and at that point, she's lost *all* her precise strike damage *until* that crit happens. This is a non-trivial flaw in your analysis.
Hmm, true. Excellent point. OK it does look like she needs 14 Charisma in the current incarnation. It seems 99.99% likely that there will be an Extra Panache feat like the Extra Grit feat in the final book though. With that, she can still have the same Cha as Fred, whatever Fred chooses.
I know you put that you're giving them both keen at level 8, but did you miss the part that Sally would get Imp Crit at 5th level?
So I knew it at some point and then mind-farted. I meant I was giving them both Improved Crit at level 8 as a feat, and I counted it as a "free feat" for Sally. I forgot to give it to Sally earlier than Fred though. That gives her a HUGE edge from 5-7.
So.... in your test, where sally gets abilities that aren't part of the class, plus being psychic, she does better than the fighter that's not taking full advantage of his class features?
Well, I certainly did not see that coming.
So.... in your test, where sally gets abilities that aren't part of the class, plus being psychic, she does better than the fighter that's not taking full advantage of his class features?
Well, I certainly did not see that coming.
???
I'd be curious to know their feats; namely because right now I'm not sure who is getting damage from where (do they both use power attack?). An this is not counting the fact that precise strike doesnt work (at all) against a decent amount of enemies.
Plus, in the end, fred wins. A few levels of superior damage honestly isnt much in the long run. They do seem pretty much equal at this stage. Did you count the fact fred can easily pay for "gloves of dueling" that work for him (+2 hit/+2 damage) but not for the swashbuckler.
I agree in that we need to see what these guys look like before fair judgment can be passed. We can assume everything's equal on a base offensive level but you failed to mention the weapon spec factored in your original post (granted that'd make the numbers relatively unchanging anyway if both can get them).
OK, so from 5-7, new things thanks to Eric!
Level 5--Sally is up .175 + 3/20 of Fred's damage
Level 6--Sally up 1.475 + 3/20 of Fred's damage
Level 7--Sally is ahead now by 2.775 + 3/20 of Fred's damage
So Sally is ahead from 5-20
Yeah, slowwwwww down, Rogue Eidolon.
I think you're on to something, but right now this is pretty loosey-goosey and SEEMS to be throwing the feat advantage of the fighter right out the window, not to mention the AC/HP differences.
So let me see if I understand...
We're going to limit both sides, but limit Fred to things that work for both builds. Then we're going to find them roughly equal when not using Sally's special abilities and gimping Fred, then say Swashbuckler is overpowered when compared to a gimp'd fighter when using all their SB abilities?
Uhm, yeah, that makes sense...
I agree in that we need to see what these guys look like before fair judgment can be passed. We can assume everything's equal on a base offensive level but you failed to mention the weapon spec factored in your original post (granted that'd make the numbers relatively unchanging anyway if both can get them).I'd be curious to know their feats; namely because right now I'm not sure who is getting damage from where (do they both use power attack?). An this is not counting the fact that precise strike doesnt work (at all) against a decent amount of enemies.
Plus, in the end, fred wins. A few levels of superior damage honestly isnt much in the long run. They do seem pretty much equal at this stage. Did you count the fact fred can easily pay for "gloves of dueling" that work for him (+2 hit/+2 damage) but not for the swashbuckler.
Tark, I ignored everything that both can get, such as weapon spec. Every possible detail that creates a relative change is accounted for in the original post. I am searching for the "delta" between them, so only things that one has over the other are relevant. They both take all the to-hit and damage feats immediately when they can. Fred takes Improved Crit, which Sally gets for free. They both have Weapon Training at the same levels (although Sally's has a typo that claims it goes up to +5 at level 20, which I ignored since is should go up to +4 at 17). This will give Fred 5 extra feats over the course of his career that he can use on other stuff like Iron Will, and Sally has a ton of class features we've ignored too.
So let me see if I understand...
We're going to limit both sides, but limit Fred to things that work for both builds. Then we're going to find them roughly equal when not using Sally's special abilities and gimping Fred, then say Swashbuckler is overpowered when compared to a gimp'd fighter when using all their SB abilities?
Uhm, yeah, that makes sense...
Huh? I don't know if you think my guide to fighters is terrible mdt, but Fred is the standard two-handed fighter from that guide, fully optimized for damage. I've seen that build of fighter as very common, and I've also seen "Falchion Fred" generally accepted by the forums as a fair benchmark for a powerful vanilla fighter. How is he gimped?
???So.... in your test, where sally gets abilities that aren't part of the class, plus being psychic, she does better than the fighter that's not taking full advantage of his class features?
Well, I certainly did not see that coming.
You make the assumption that the Swashbuckler qualifies for Weapon Specialisation, which it doesn't (until there's a confirmation from the design team that these classes count as their alternates for that, which last I read was 'a good question' that the design team hadn't decided upon). You're discounting the Fighter's huge feat advantage, which is their main class feature (not to mention the two-handed archetype), and you're letting your swashbuckler see the future, turning the resource gamble into sure thing of neverending supply.
Makes it pretty hard to view the test as unbiased.
Edit: Never mind on the weapon spec front, I'd somehow managed to just skip over the 'counts as fighter levels for combat feats' bit on the first reading. That'll teach me for taking a look at 3am. My mistake.
I know this doesn't factor into the damage calculations, but if Sally is Strength-focused and doesn't max out Dex as early as possible, isn't her AC going to be miserable as compared to Fred, since Fred is wearing heavy armor and Sally is stuck with light armor?
Quite certainly true. If the GM allows Dervish Dance or Agile (which PFS does, for better or worse), this compounds the problem because it allows Sally to beat the fighter there too (also Crane Style X_X). For now, Sally's defense is way worse than Fred at AC. This thread is only about offense after all.
Something worth noting, though it is of limited value to the discussion...
Fred gets a lot more out of taking a Barbarian or Alchemist level than Sally does. Sally's Precise Strike doesn't increase when she multiclasses.
Fred also gets more out of Enlarge Person and other Strength-buffing spells than Sally does.
Just saying.
-Matt
???So.... in your test, where sally gets abilities that aren't part of the class, plus being psychic, she does better than the fighter that's not taking full advantage of his class features?
Well, I certainly did not see that coming.
You make the assumption that the Swashbuckler qualifies for Weapon Specialisation, which it doesn't (until there's a confirmation from the design team that these classes count as their alternates for that, which last I read was 'a good question' that the design team hadn't decided upon). You're discounting the Fighter's huge feat advantage, which is their main class feature (not to mention the two-handed archetype), and you're letting your swashbuckler see the future, turning the resource gamble into sure thing of neverending supply.
Makes it pretty hard to view the test as unbiased.
Swashbucklers bonus feat says: "Swashbuckler levels are considered fighter levels for the purpose of meeting combat feat prerequisites."
Also, they don't need to see the future. Right now it does require 14 Cha as Shisumo correctly pointed out (later you can take Extra Panache, which I would bet any amount of money is in the book). Here's how it works--always keep yourself at 1 panache. Always. Whenever you crit, spend 1 panache to double on your next hit. So you get the same damage per crit, it just isn't on the crit. Also, the OP specifically didn't even let Sally double on a crit in case you were interested in those numbers. She still wins at many levels. Finally, the numbers here never allow for Sally to get a final blow, which should happen often enough to give her even more advantage.
Actually, I've biased pretty strongly in favor of Fred as far as I can tell. My buddy told me Swashbucklers did more in his math. I was actually trying to prove him wrong with Fred. I was shocked that he was right.
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You make the assumption that the Swashbuckler qualifies for Weapon Specialisation, which it doesn't (until there's a confirmation from the design team that these classes count as their alternates for that, which last I read was 'a good question' that the design team hadn't decided upon).???So.... in your test, where sally gets abilities that aren't part of the class, plus being psychic, she does better than the fighter that's not taking full advantage of his class features?
Well, I certainly did not see that coming.
From the playtest document: "Swashbuckler levels are considered fighter levels for the purpose of meeting combat feat prerequisites."
For all that I think not doing full builds is suspect for the purposes of this test, that is not a mistake RE is making.
Huh? I don't know if you think my guide to fighters is terrible mdt, but Fred is the standard two-handed fighter from that guide, fully optimized for damage. I've seen that build of fighter as very common, and I've also seen "Falchion Fred" generally accepted by the forums as a fair benchmark for a powerful vanilla fighter. How is he gimped?So let me see if I understand...
We're going to limit both sides, but limit Fred to things that work for both builds. Then we're going to find them roughly equal when not using Sally's special abilities and gimping Fred, then say Swashbuckler is overpowered when compared to a gimp'd fighter when using all their SB abilities?
Uhm, yeah, that makes sense...
You specifically said you are ignoring everything they can't both get. You are not giving Fred anything that Sally can't use (like duelist gloves), so you are gimping Fred, by not giving him equipment that would boost him but not Sally. THen you are giving Sally back her class abilities to say she's Overpowered.
Tark, I ignored everything that both can get, such as weapon spec. Every possible detail that creates a relative change is accounted for in the original post. I am searching for the "delta" between them, so only things that one has over the other are relevant. They both take all the to-hit and damage feats immediately when they can. Fred takes Improved Crit, which Sally gets for free. They both have Weapon Training at the same levels (although Sally's has a typo that claims it goes up to +5 at level 20, which I ignored since is should go up to +4 at 17). This will give Fred 5 extra feats over the course of his career that he can use on other stuff like Iron Will, and Sally has a ton of class features we've ignored too.I agree in that we need to see what these guys look like before fair judgment can be passed. We can assume everything's equal on a base offensive level but you failed to mention the weapon spec factored in your original post (granted that'd make the numbers relatively unchanging anyway if both can get them).I'd be curious to know their feats; namely because right now I'm not sure who is getting damage from where (do they both use power attack?). An this is not counting the fact that precise strike doesnt work (at all) against a decent amount of enemies.
Plus, in the end, fred wins. A few levels of superior damage honestly isnt much in the long run. They do seem pretty much equal at this stage. Did you count the fact fred can easily pay for "gloves of dueling" that work for him (+2 hit/+2 damage) but not for the swashbuckler.
Yes, but you also ignored the limitations on Precise Strike.
Which given how many enemies fall under the category of undead, cosntruct, elemental, ooze, or jsut straight up immune to critcal hits covers a wide margin of foes.
Giving Fred auto crits doesn't particularly present a fair set of numbers either since that's not a real world assumption.
For example you're not going to see many if any Sally's in the world primarily because there's more to the game than pure offense. So Dex, and Cha both become factors and will likely need to be higher for Sally than Fred who can dump Cha entirely in favor of a stronger will save.
As it stands you make a compelling argument for a corner case assuming that one class is built completely outside the class assumptions and is always fighting off against an opponent their class favors.
If we were comparing barbarian's or rangers to fighters that would be a fair assumption but Swashbucklers are an altogether different animal slightly more comparable to a paladin (or arguably not at all) in the way you build it.
Yeah, I've put my hands up to misreading on the combat feat front.
It still looks like this 'test' is deliberately unplaying the fighter's key strengths in order to push an agenda, though.
Can you give us the builds of both characters used for this?
You specifically said you are ignoring everything they can't both get. You are not giving Fred anything that Sally can't use (like duelist gloves), so you are gimping Fred, by not giving him equipment that would boost him but not Sally. THen you are giving Sally back her class abilities to say she's Overpowered.Huh? I don't know if you think my guide to fighters is terrible mdt, but Fred is the standard two-handed fighter from that guide, fully optimized for damage. I've seen that build of fighter as very common, and I've also seen "Falchion Fred" generally accepted by the forums as a fair benchmark for a powerful vanilla fighter. How is he gimped?So let me see if I understand...
We're going to limit both sides, but limit Fred to things that work for both builds. Then we're going to find them roughly equal when not using Sally's special abilities and gimping Fred, then say Swashbuckler is overpowered when compared to a gimp'd fighter when using all their SB abilities?
Uhm, yeah, that makes sense...
I'm following Cheapy's advice from his first post on playtest tips and leaving out things like Dervish Dance, Agile, and Crane Style that would make Sally into an unkillable monster. On the other side, I left out Gloves of Dueling. Item access is never completely certain, after all, except in PFS, where Agile and Dervish Dance are allowed.
Also don't forget that Precise Strike is 1 attack per round AND eats your swift action; old Sal is missing that precision damage on those attacks.
On full attacks there will not be levels where Sal comes ahead at all.
Precise Strike takes no action. Are you referring to the typo where the word "double" is missing?
Precise Strike only works on living creatures with discernable anatomies. It's more restrictive than sneak attack.
For no good reason, but because it's a straight out copy-paste of Precise Strike from the Duelist, which in turn was a straight copy-paste from the 3.5 version of that PrC. One should note that Sneak Attack was made less restrictive in its target selection in Pathfinder, so Precise Strike's old restriction seems more a case of the developers forgetting to apply their SA update to Precise Strike. And now they copy that bad version for their new base class. <sigh>
I'm also not so sure what data of any value you can get from comparing two mediocre character builds? You certainly can't balance a game to the middle, because then it all just falls apart when anyone takes a good look at how the systems interact.
You are ignoring certain important factors. Like the fact that sally can in fact run out of panache, dropping precise strike off the chart, and that it does not function against a big cross section of the bestiary (there is a reason paizo removed undead from the no sneak attack category). Not to mention your second chart in which sally spends panache to increase her precise strike is completely disengenious, as it is spike damage(spending a very limited resource), where as fred gets his damage with every single attack.
Not to mention I am pretty sure your math is off.
Using the dpr olypics formula, sally with the same equipment as falchion fred (+3rapier and a 22strength, with weapon focus and weapon sepcialization) at level 10 does about 5 points less per round in damage then fred. She does 54.1875 he does 59.25 (assuming an attack routine of +23/+18 with her 1d6+12dmg+10 precision(precise strike). Factor in the fact that sally's damage doesnt work against some really common monsters it isnt too high
Yeah, I've put my hands up to misreading on the combat feat front.
It still looks like this 'test' is deliberately unplaying the fighter's key strengths in order to push an agenda, though.Can you give us the builds of both characters used for this?
The relevant part is when they get a Strength boost, as listed in the first post. Other than that, it is unnecessary to specify the builds because Sally copies Fred. So if Fred buys a holy weapon at some level, Sally buys it then too. Fred takes all Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats immediately, and so does Sally. Everything then cancels out except that Fred gets 1.5x Str bonus and 3 for 1 Power Attack and Sally has Precise Strike.
Stuff
So, you're saying that Fred was Gimped and Sally wasn't in the comparison? :)
You are ignoring certain important factors. Like the fact that sally can in fact run out of panache, dropping precise strike off the chart, and that it does not function against a big cross section of the bestiary (there is a reason paizo removed undead from the no sneak attack category). Not to mention your second chart in which sally spends panache to increase her precise strike is completely disengenious, as it is spike damage(spending a very limited resource), where as fred gets his damage with every single attack.
I think you have Sally's modus operandi wrong. She never uses deeds that cost panache except Precise Strike. She stays put at 1 panache at all times, and when she crits and gains a panache, she doubles the precise strike damage on her next hit. We're even ignoring that sometimes she drops a foe and gets more panache.
Also;
If Sally has Cha 7 for her 1 panache,
Sally has 1 panache.
Sally crits, sally still has 1 panache.
Sally spends her 1 panache for double damage.
Sally has 0 panache until she next crits.
For your 'only spends panache when she crits' technique to work, she needs at least a +2 Charisma mod.
Are there and deeds which increase the Panache pool? Because there aren't currently any feats.
Thread closed. Please continue this discussion in the stickied Swashbuckler thread, otherwise we'll end up with a hundred parallel discussion threads. Thanks!