Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I know we have already had discussions of maps, what's visible, and perhaps even what's possibly for sale in other threads, but none of them seemed to hit this particular nail squarely enough on the head to resurrect any one particular past thread to which I could then add my new thoughts.
Chances are, the game will come with a mini-map. Hardcore players who dislike the immersion breaking effects will hopefully be allowed to toggle it off. A long while back, I started a thread (Here) asking what should be on that mini-map, and there were a lot of good ideas provided by fellow posters. Other threads have dealt with the fog of war, how to procure more detailed maps of a hex, and at one point, Ryan even mentioned something about the possibility of selling such information (or perhaps just selling information in general). Since I'm up early and have little to do, I'm going to try to put all these together and then ask your opinions.
Fog of War:
As much as I like delving out into the unknown and finding what's there, it seems unrealistic that we will step out of the gates of our starter town knowing nothing of the world except the hex we are birthed into on day one. I have no problem if we don't know what's out there, but the few NPC' in town should know at least a little more.
Proposal - Our mini-map includes only the starter town hex, but that we can buy (for a nominal fee) the map addition of our starter town's region (a few surrounding hexes) or the road routes to the other NPC trade centers that the NPC's of our starter town would likely know. These purchases would provide only the basic geographic features (roads, forests, plains, bodies of water, etc.) that are required for accurate navigation. As you move out into the world, other NPCs might provide the same for their region. This would, in time, allow you to add the safer regions of the map to your total mini-map view without having traveled to every one of these hexes.
Exploration, Your Mini-map, & Selling the World:
As you explore new hexes (those you didn't buy knowledge of), they would be added to your mini-map in the same fashion and to the same level of detail - the geographic basics necessary for navigation. As you add new hexes to your map, you would be able to place icons for what you find (ruins, player made structures, geographic anomalies that don't show up in the basic mini-map view, etc.). This would allow some added notation - the kind of thing you could tell someone if giving verbal directions - but not the fine detail of a more accurate, hand drawn map.
Proposal - Certainly, this information might be something you would like to gift to friends, settlement leaders, etc., or perhaps even sell to those less traveled. Could there be a trade window where player A could offer their mini-map information to player B? If it's a friend/ally, they would simply click the "trade mini-map" option and not input any fee. Upon accepting the offer (either for free or the agreed upon amount), the recipient's mini-map would be updated with the additional hexes.
Cartography:
Given the size of hexes, there are likely to be details that players will want to know about, but that shouldn't appear on a mini-map. This is the realm of cartographers. Hopefully the game will include a cartography skill. With it, player would be able to map one hex at a time and with far more detail (trails through woods, caves, ponds, etc.). This might also include the basic layout of player settlements, which would be very handy for planning both attacks and defense. This could be the map scale that military leaders, using appropriate icons, could plan field tactics.
Proposal - With the same kind of mechanic used for mini-maps, a cartographer could use their skill to make a detailed snapshot of a single hex. Likewise, they could trade/sell this hex to another. when added to their map library, the player could then click the hex on their mini-map and pull up the individual hex view. A leader of an army, head of a harvesting squad, or captain of an escalation raid could mark their plan of attack on the map and share it with their company.
Mechanics:
In that the game designers will already have planned for viewing the world map to varying depths and levels of realism, I'm guessing that the two views (mini-map sized basic hex view and detailed individual hex view) will already be available on the server. Transferring my map information to another player doesn't seem too difficult (the server would tally up what hexes I have and toggle those on for the other person). The only other trick would be the annotation, which other games already allow to varying degrees. The novel part of this would be sharing and selling that information. Besides the usefulness and fun of such a system, imagine the intrigue of a spy gaining war plans or a counter spy passing along fake plans.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Fog of War:
Usually, fog of war means there are areas of the map that are black until you explore them. I think this goes against the spirit of Exploration because it creates an incentive to clear out the black rather than to know the area.
I propose the Map is completely uncovered, but very basic. As any point of interest (not just a formal POI) is discovered, it is added to the map in the correct spot. What started out looking like unbroken forest might end up with many clearings and rivulets marked.
...
I definitely like the rest.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'd offer that a character should only be able to fast travel from Point A to Point B if he can trace an unbroken path through known hexes from A to B. His route of travel and travel time should be based on the path he selects.
Locations of settlements, significant landmarks, and crossroads (road junctions and bridges, the junction between a river and road) might be traded as "known" from a distance. POIs, lesser landmarks, and other road and trails might be tradable as "tentative", which would allow a character to find them, but not fast travel until the way was "known".
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
1) What about the time it takes to fully explore a hex?
2) Would you require that the character only be able to map in detail areas that have been actually observed from a first person perspective? (I'm thinking of the view seen by the character while moving through an area.)
3) Would level of map detail (level of cartographic accuracy) be dependent of a mapping skill level of the mapper?
4) Could a mapping skilled character be able to piece together the experience of other characters to build a navigable map as opposed to building a map only from their own experience?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'd offer that a character should only be able to fast travel from Point A to Point B if he can trace an unbroken path through known hexes from A to B.
I would prefer it if Fast Travel were only available on Roads. I like limiting your destinations to Known Locations, but I would prefer that most Settlements (PC & NPC) should be automatically Known to everyone, the exception being new or minor Settlements that don't warrant a mention on a road sign.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Nihomon,
Wouldn't having areas that are black until you explore them promote exploration? However, the ability to be given or buy the information to fill in those areas means that nonexplorer types don't have to go there themselves to "know" the area. Instead, they can get the information from people who truly enjoy exploring. To me, it seems like a win/win...explorers have a way to earn a little extra cash for doing what they love and the rest of the world doesn't have to run around to every hex to fill in their personal map. By OE, this information will be at almost everyone's fingertips via one personal contact or another (shared through your CC/settlement, shared with friends, bought from a more well traveled explorer, etc.).
Today we live in a world of instant information and GPS, but even still, I couldn't tell you any of the roads or basic landmarks in my county except those I've personally been on or driven past. Yet, through the efforts of others, I can buy a map or look online. I can only imagine how much more difficult it was for people one hundred years ago to know details of geography even relatively short distances away from where they lived. Two hundred years ago, the maps weren't even accurate for much of the world.
Urman,
If you mean fast travel as in the traveler flag, I would agree. If you mean gate travel, teleports, etc., I hope we never have it. It removes whole chunks of human interaction, especially in sandbox games.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Wouldn't having areas that are black until you explore them promote exploration?
I think it would promote clearing the black off your map.
Like I said, I really liked everything in the OP, except instead of making unexplored areas black, I would make them full of the generic terrain type. For example, the Echo Wood would look like unbroken forest until you explored it and some of the forest changed to the finer details of what was really there.
Two hundred years ago, the maps weren't even accurate for much of the world.
And I'm not remotely suggesting the unknown areas should be at all accurate.
For an extreme example, imagine a character who starts out in a small village nestled in the Echo Wood. As far as he knows, the map is 100% forest North, South, East, and West. So that's what his map looks like, too. Suppose he then travels West until he reaches a riverbank, but he can't see the other side of the river. Now his map shows water to the West. If he crosses the river and sees there's another forest, then his map would show Forest again.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I can only imagine how much more difficult it was for people one hundred years ago to know details of geography even relatively short distances away from where they lived. Two hundred years ago, the maps weren't even accurate for much of the world.
There was a game called Merchant Prince that had an absolutely brilliant fog of war map: a sepia toned map of the world that was more inaccurate based on the distance from the start point. The map was historic, I think (based on Venice as the start point and period), but the fog of war map was procedurally generated for each new game.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I should probably expand on the reason I support using generic terrain instead of black for unexplored areas.
If you use black, then there's a very clear indication on your map of what you need to clear, so there's a strong incentive to simply go around clearing the black away. If you're paying attention to whether or not you're clearing the black off your map, then you're not actually paying attention to what's in the world around you.
However, if you use generic terrain, then there's no benefit to looking at your map to figure out if you have it fully explored. You actually have to be there, paying attention, exploring the area.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Urman,
"Fast Travel" as a phrase has been used for far longer than GW has been around with their specific definition, so I wasn't sure which you meant. Thanks for the clarification, and again, meant as you have stated, I fully agree.
Nihimon,
I see your point about fog of war vs generic map features. Also, you don't need to feel obligated to repeat that you liked the rest of my post (though thank you for the kind words)...you can disagree with me and I won't ignore the parts you praised or hold the fact that you disagree with parts against you. :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
How can I be selective on the data I sell, revealing only a few of the icons I found?
How can I misdirect, putting a massive ravine cutting through the woods, upstream on a known stream, when is is really the site of a golden lode? Or castle where there is a lake or pond, Or …
|-{)
^
|
Movember!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Lam,
I'm not sure a system could be selective about the trading/selling of mini-map info, but I would think you could be with individual cartography "maps".
I'm also not sure if it would be feasible for the system to allow you to do more than take an aerial picture of what truly exists. Trying to draw inaccurate information might be too much to ask for. However, passing off maps with inaccurate player notations shouldn't be too far fetched.