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I, uh, don't think the Frequently Asked Questions was meant fortthis sort of thing...
I don't see why it couldn't be made more widely available. It would make a certain amount of sense given that natural shapeshifters would try to find a way to use spells while in their animal form, assuming they have high enough mental score.
I say 'mental score' instead of Wisdom because it might need to be tweaked by class. Druids have Wisdom for casting there spells. Presumable a natural shapeshifter who's a class with spells that are governed by high Intelligence or Charisma would need those instead.
Most natural (non-studied, non-religious) magic tends to depend on Charisma, so that could be a basic score for any shapeshifting race that has supernatural abilities but not a class that casts spells.
I've allowed it for shapeshifting races in the past (such as Dragon Compendium's Tibbits) and not had any trouble with it.
I see this as the same situation as the Spell Mastery FAQ.
Can an alchemist, magus, or witch select the Spell Mastery feat?
As written, no, as the feat's prerequisite is "1st-level wizard."
However, the feat was written before the existence of the alchemist, magus, and witch classes, and it is a perfectly reasonable house rule to allow those classes to select the feat and apply its benefits to an alchemist's formula book, magus's spellbook, or witch's familiar.
The core book didn't have the options for changing shape that came out in latter books.
So RAW, and very clearly RAW, only druids qualify. But it would be a "perfectly reasonable house rule" to allow some other characters to take the feat (like Kitsune).
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looking for clarification on an existing rule/feat (Natural Spell)
Maybe I missed your question (and I suspect the P.D.T. did also.)
Natural Spell
Prerequisites: Wis 13, wild shape class feature.
I've yet to see someone ask if you can take Natural Spell without having the Wild Shape class feature. Asking if Change Shape qualifies isn't a FAQ, should be a FAQ, and in general is asking for a house rule.
But if your question wasn't "can I take Natural Spell without Wild Shape if I have X" then please restate.
Maybe it can be added to a future beastiary? Myth and legend are full of stories where an otherwise normal animal finds they can cast a spell that temporarily allows them to assume human form. This is why my ritual thread contains no restrictions on what can perform rituals. The legendary Japanese artist who was believed to be a fox could be a skindancer.
Is there a pinned topic somewhere that explains what Frequently asked questions are not allowed to be suggested as official Frequently asked questions? Is it only suggested rules changes that are affected?
Is there a pinned topic somewhere that explains what Frequently asked questions are not allowed to be suggested as official Frequently asked questions? Is it only suggested rules changes that are affected?
No, and suggested changes in-and-of-themselves are not out of scope for it. They just have to be included with a question or unclear wording and be a suggestion to clarify, rather than a petition to change already-clear wording.
Good example: "This ability is only useful if you can take two standard actions in a single turn, which is almost impossible. It should be fixed so that you can do it as a move action so you can combine it with ...."
Bad example: "This ability works just fine, but I'd like it changed to only take a move action."
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That being said, having a sticky with guidelines would probably be useful.
Natural Spell itself needs a hard-core nerf. But I would be up for opening it up for all the races AND classes that could possibly get any kind of shape-shifting AND spellcasting.
But it really should be a +1 level metamagic feat.
I just realized, if you call the spells supernatural powers usable once a day while in animal form, they can use the same magic just fine.
The Question is; Can the feat Natural Spell be expanded to include supernatural abilities?
The answer is: Yes, as a house rule.
You're basically asking the equivalent of "Can Weapon Specialization be expanded to anyone with BAB +4, instead of just 4th level Fighters?" It's not an unreasonable change to make, but it's never going to be official.
It would be simpler to open up bloodlines and natural spell to everything that can use it. These things might not be as useful to other classes. Arcane magic might suffer a 6% chance of spell failure due to the lack of hands, but pony unicorns can cast using their horn or something.
I don't believe there are any balance issues. Changing it to apply to all supernatural shape change effects only effects kitsune, lycanthropes, and possibly some fey. Of these only kitsune are supported as PCs.
It doesn't matter what horrendous abuses this creates in the hands of NPCs since GMs are assumed to be responsible. That means the only question is if kitsune casting in fox form is unbalanced.
I don't think it is. It's two feats they aren't using on crafting or metamagic or boosting their DCs even more.
And Beast bonded Witch, maybe some Sorcerer bloodlines (Serpentine, I am looking at you).
Sorcerous bloodlines are like leveled mutations. Wizards already get school benefits, but some might allow these to fighters, monks, rogues, ect. I tried to use it to illustrate a point, but I might drop it.
Natural Spell itself needs a hard-core nerf. But I would be up for opening it up for all the races AND classes that could possibly get any kind of shape-shifting AND spellcasting.
But it really should be a +1 level metamagic feat.
Not a bad idea, though I'd call it something else and let Druids keep their Natural Spell feat. They are the shape shifters, they should be better at it.
So a kitsune has a fox-humanoid form and a human-humanoid form.
Both forms are humanoid.
The Change Shape ability functions like Alter Self except as listed in its description. I don't see anything in Change shape or Alter Self that limits the creature from spellcasting, nor anything in the Polymorph descriptor.
Why do they need a feat to cast spells in their other form?
If the kitsune has the feat that allows it to transform into an animal fox form, then maybe it couldn't cast spells, but I don't see why it couldn't otherwise in its two humanoid forms.
For lycanthropes I'd also say the hybrid form could still spellcast. It still wears gear, and can manipulate objects with its hands and can still speak, so why can't it spellcast? Animal form, maybe not.
I don't see anything in the Beast Shape spells that says a spellcaster can't speak, that part is in the druid's WildShape class feature, so their main limitation on spellcasting would appear to be a lack of proper appendages for somatic components.
Maybe I'm missing some clause somewhere.
I don't see anything in the Beast Shape spells that says a spellcaster can't speak, that part is in the druid's WildShape class feature, so their main limitation on spellcasting would appear to be a lack of proper appendages for somatic components.
Maybe I'm missing some clause somewhere.
What you're missing is the rules for the Polymorph Magic Subschool. They have a list of things that people who polymorph into creatures of the animal type can't do. Speaking and casting spells with verbal or somatic components is part of the list.
So if a Kitsune takes still and silent spell, they can cast spells in their fox form?
So if a Kitsune takes still and silent spell, they can cast spells in their fox form?
Yes, if they're also a sorcerer or someone else who has the eschew materials feat. In other words, it is *possible*, but the pain you have to go through to cast spells in an animal form if you aren't a druid is ridiculous.
The design team is not going to change the Natural Spell feat.
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Interesting thread!
A couple thoughts ...
I'm not sure the Polymorph Magic Subschool is necessarily the correct thing to look at here. The Polymorph Magic Subschool is, as the name implies, a Subschool for spells. This certainly applies to spells and even spell-like abilities (Sp), but not necessarily Supernatural Abilities (Su) which are not spells and do not always follow the same rules as spells.
I agree that nothing needs updated with the Natural Spell feat. That feat applies to a druid (or other class with the wildshape class feature). As such, it really has little to do with a Kitsune or other race which can change form naturally.
Races like the Kitsune have a RACIAL supernatural (Su) shapeshift ability. Racial is key here. Kitsune can naturally shapeshift as part of their race, regardless of what their class is. I'm not aware of any rule stating a race that can naturally change form as a supernatural ability (Su) cannot cast spells in a different form. In fact, it would seem logical and obvious that they can.
In the case of Kitsune in particular, their true form is the anthropomorphic fox - the human form is what they often change into, so they should certainly be able to cast spells in their natural anthropomorphic fox form. Heck, it even says "It is not uncommon for one to pursue sorcery, while those few born with white fur and pale eyes usually become oracles."
What's more, their Kitsune Magic racial ability allows Kitsune with a Charisma score of 11 or higher to gain dancing lights as a spell-like ability. I find it hard to believe they cannot use this in either of their forms.
So, I agree with the design team not changing Natural Spell, mainly because the feat is not needed in the first place - races possessing shapeshifting as a natural, supernatural racial ability would seem to already be able to cast spells in their various forms.
I love house rules!
NATURAL SPELL (METAMAGIC)
Benefit: You can cast a natural spell while in wild shape, wereform, while polymorphed, etc. However, a spell modified with this feat cannot be cast while in your normal form.
Metamagic Cost: +0 levels if prepared; +1 spell level if used spontaneously.
Why the ding to spont casters? They don't really need it.
Because they apply it on the spot, so the down-side (can't use in normal form) doesn't apply to them. The prepared casters like druids, meanwhile, are up at dawn thinking "Will I need to cast this spell in wild shape, or in my normal form? Think hard, 'cause it's one or the other..."
If you mean that spontaneous casters have no use for the feat -- as written, they'd need it when using one of those bloodline powers that gives you elemental body XXVI or whatever.
I personally don't really see the need for either downside myself, as mentioned above I houseruled it to work as it does now for all shapeshifters and really didn't notice any problems with game balance.
I personally don't really see the need for either downside myself, as mentioned above I houseruled it to work as it does now for all shapeshifters and really didn't notice any problems with game balance.
I don't like "options" that basically say "you're stupid if you don't take this!" That says to me that either (a) they're too good, or (b) they should be built directly into the class progression, and not left out as "options." Because my house rules have a lot of possibilities besides wild shape for druids, I chose the former.
I'm not sure the Polymorph Magic Subschool is necessarily the correct thing to look at here. The Polymorph Magic Subschool is, as the name implies, a Subschool for spells. This certainly applies to spells and even spell-like abilities (Sp), but not necessarily Supernatural Abilities (Su) which are not spells and do not always follow the same rules as spells.
....snip.....
What's more, their Kitsune Magic racial ability allows Kitsune with a Charisma score of 11 or higher to gain dancing lights as a spell-like ability. I find it hard to believe they cannot use this in either of their forms.
So, I agree with the design team not changing Natural Spell, mainly because the feat is not needed in the first place - races possessing shapeshifting as a natural, supernatural racial ability would seem to already be able to cast spells in their various forms.
While I want this to be true, I think the wording in the fox shape feat that says "This ability otherwise functions as beast shape II" means that the character is saddled with all the baggage that comes with the entire polymorph subschool.
Think of it this way: if Fox Shape didn't make use of the polymorph subschool rules, then the kitsune's gear wouldn't get absorbed into his form when he shapeshifts into a fox. In my opinion that rules interpretation is far worse than simply not being able to cast spells.
One quick note: There is nothing stopping a shapeshifted character from using spell-like-abilities since they don't have any components. That means a fox shaped kitsune can use dancing lights and his tail feats without issues.
I love house rules!
NATURAL SPELL (METAMAGIC)
Benefit: You can cast a natural spell while in wild shape, wereform, while polymorphed, etc. However, a spell modified with this feat cannot be cast while in your normal form.
Metamagic Cost: +0 levels if prepared; +1 spell level if used spontaneously.
Isn't the fact that spontaneous casters have to cast the spell as a full round action already enough of a hindrance? Still, I applaud you for allowing this in your games :)
I personally don't really see the need for either downside myself, as mentioned above I houseruled it to work as it does now for all shapeshifters and really didn't notice any problems with game balance.I don't like "options" that basically say "you're stupid if you don't take this!" That says to me that either (a) they're too good, or (b) they should be built directly into the class progression, and not left out as "options." Because my house rules have a lot of possibilities besides wild shape for druids, I chose the former.Unless you've seriously nerfed total wildshape duration this is still a "you're stupid if you don't take this!" feat.
A druid will not take this before level 5. At level 6 a druid has 12 hour wildshape or 18 with a relatively cheap item in the otherwise underused garment slot. At level 8 she has 24 hour wildshape. Why is she going to prepare anything without this metamagic? That's not a choice either. The only real choice is if it's worth a feat to cast spells.
well it would restrict their 9th level spells to non-wild shaped forms
A druid will not take this before level 5. At level 6 a druid has 12 hour wildshape or 18 with a relatively cheap item in the otherwise underused garment slot. At level 8 she has 24 hour wildshape. Why is she going to prepare anything without this metamagic? That's not a choice either. The only real choice is if it's worth a feat to cast spells.
That's a good point. I'd be inclined to either (a) make it always +1 spell level; or (b) make you prepare it specifically for each wild form taken. The latter would work for me, because I tend to go back and forth between winged (travel) and combat shapes, but if other people just hang around all day in one wild shape (which is sort of the sense I get), then option (a) is better. Nerfing wild shape duration is not something I really want to do.
P.S. I don't go for the whole splatbook item thing, but that means it's still 2 uses/day x 6 hours/use = 12 hours at 6th level.
Spiked collar of casting: This collar is put around the neck of a specific animal shape. When the caster takes another shape, it becomes inert and absorbed. While active the being can cast any spell as if they were in human form, 3 times a day. The collar is made by a caster with both still and silent spell. Cost, 15000, 30000,? not sure.
Spiked collar of casting: This collar is put around the neck of a specific animal shape. When the caster takes another shape, it becomes inert and absorbed. While active the being can cast any spell as if they were in human form, 3 times a day. The collar is made by a caster with both still and silent spell. Cost, 15000, 30000,? not sure.
how about making a greater version of the wild armor enchantment that allows for limited casting, up to 1 level lower the highest level of spell they can cast?