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Ive only been playing pathfinder for a very short time now but as i was looking at trying to optimize a character to get as many attacks per round as i possibly could i thinm i stumbled on something that im not fully understanding the rules for because it seems a little over powered.
As a monk master of many styles archetype, if i combined the style of crane wing, snake fang, and panther parry; with having combat reflexes and a 20 dex, could i run past as many enemies as possible encouraging attacks of opportunity from each one, then with panther parry, i would get to attack each of them before their AoO, plus once they get to attack me if they miss, take two more attacks against them from snake fang, or if they land, deflect them from crane wing and get another AoO against them anyways. And resolve all of this in my move action towards my actual target of attack and make an attack action against him? I have to missing something here because this seems way to good to be true.
If this doesn't work, any suggestions for me on modifying this idea to best optimize this character?
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With the number of feats involved it's a mid-high level tactic, used to spread your damage amongst multiple targets, and it's shut down by enemies recognizing your tactic and no longer making AoOs against you. All in all, it's for clearing mooks less efficiently than a fireball.
Also, the 2nd attack from Snake Fang is an immediate action, so only one of those a round. Similarly, crane wing is only once a round.
Yes these all work together. Nothing wrong with that.
You get a few more attacks but you have to be attacked.. and the enemies need to be there... and you are forced into spreading your damage... all balancing factors.
In addition, someone might just be able to trip you with their aoo to end the fun.
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That is correct.
There is one problem - Enemies aren't generally stupid enough to keep attacking when they see the crafty monk/fighter/whateveryou'regoingtobe running around and slapping people back. It's still a nice style.
Also, Crane Wing does not trigger Snake Fang or Panther Claw. It counts as a Deflect, meaning neither a Miss or Hit for the purposes of activating the other two styles.
When combining the two, if you have a nice high wis and dex mod, you can make a TON of attacks overall, assuming everyone takes a swing. I feel sorry for those attacking with an AoO, or missing with an attack!
Enjoy :)
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If i take human, take my first level as monk and take combat reflexes, panther style and panther parry, second level fighter and take snake style, third level monk with snake fang and crane style, fourth and fifth level fighter and take crane wing, crane reposite, and master of many styles feat which allows me to swithch styles as a free action. Always have panther style running, start with it combined with crane style. Once you use the free deflection switch to snake style even after you use your one extra attack you still get two attacks on any creature that takes the AoO against you and misses. For gear use mitheral medium armor to allow max movement with a shield in one hand and the other hand free.
Is it legal?
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There are lots of funky builds.
Flowing monk with
Imp trip ,greater trip ,vicious stomp, combat reflexes, medusas wrath
Full attack vs three adjacent opponents
Trip one
A successful trip grants you an aoo from greater trip
Your aoo makes the target flat footed
You get another aoo when they fall from vicious stomp
Trip another .. 2 more aoos
Trip a third ... 2 more aoos
Get 2 free attacks from medusas wrath against a flat footed target (aka anything you hit with an aoo)
1round 3 trips, 8 attacks (more if hasted or if you spend a ki)
And they provoke again for standing up.
Oh... and if you can get that same build with snake style you can trip an enemy that attacks you, get 2 aoos and then 2 attacks from snake fang...
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That is correct.
There is one problem - Enemies aren't generally stupid enough to keep attacking when they see the crafty monk/fighter/whateveryou'regoingtobe running around and slapping people back. It's still a nice style.
Also, Crane Wing does not trigger Snake Fang or Panther Claw. It counts as a Deflect, meaning neither a Miss or Hit for the purposes of activating the other two styles.When combining the two, if you have a nice high wis and dex mod, you can make a TON of attacks overall, assuming everyone takes a swing. I feel sorry for those attacking with an AoO, or missing with an attack!
Enjoy :)
Now as long as the GM doesn't use metagaming knowledge i should be able to do this atleast once per encounter before they wise up. And what about creatures with low intelligence scores such as animals and undead, shouldn't i be able to do this repeatedly?
As for crane reposite, i realize that it doesn't activate snake fang or panther parry but the attack of opportunity that activates cran reposite, would activate panther parry first, then if he still lives and he finishes his attack and hits to activate the crane wing i then would get another attack against him.
And am i correct in my interpretation of the extra attacks that the attack from panther parry and the second attack from snake fang are not actually AoO's and don't actually count against my 5 AoO i can make in a round?
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Also have the shield have the bashing ability, put it in my main hand, offhand open and take the rest of my levels in fighter improving my shield bash.
High AC makes my snake fang more effective and the shield has an attack of 1d8 plus pay to put weapon enchantments on it instead of shied enchantments.
This is a society character otherwise i would take shield master so my shield enchantments would work as weapon enchantments aswell.
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There are lots of funky builds.
Flowing monk with
Imp trip ,greater trip ,vicious stomp, combat reflexes, medusas wrathFull attack vs three adjacent opponents
Trip one
A successful trip grants you an aoo from greater trip
Your aoo makes the target flat footed
You get another aoo when they fall from vicious stomp
Trip another .. 2 more aoos
Trip a third ... 2 more aoos
Get 2 free attacks from medusas wrath against a flat footed target (aka anything you hit with an aoo)1round 3 trips, 8 attacks (more if hasted or if you spend a ki)
And they provoke again for standing up.
Great idea but what about monsters larger than you or immune to trip? Almost every creature has a threat range and can make and are susceptible to AoO. I've looked into building a trip master before and it seems great but while running alot of society missions i see that they might not be as effective as i would hope.
If i take human, take my first level as monk and take combat reflexes, panther style and panther parry, second level fighter and take snake style, third level monk with snake fang and crane style, fourth and fifth level fighter and take crane wing, crane reposite, and master of many styles feat which allows me to swithch styles as a free action. Always have panther style running, start with it combined with crane style. Once you use the free deflection switch to snake style even after you use your one extra attack you still get two attacks on any creature that takes the AoO against you and misses. For gear use mitheral medium armor to allow max movement with a shield in one hand and the other hand free.
Is it legal?
Yep, style feats do not really care if you are wearing a shield and armor. They just have rules like "have an arm free" or "Attack of opportunity with an unarmed strike" rather than another weapon.
Also note: if you take the armor expert trait, you can reduce the armor check penalty of mithral medium armor to 0, which would be the penalty for non proficient use. Plus, you can wear brawling armor (+2 to attack and damage with unarmed strikes)
It is over all a beautiful way to get a ton of attacks, since you trade in the fast progression BAB of flurry in return for the chance to have most of your attack at your full BAB.
The only problem you might find is a metagaming GM that finds excuses for enemies to avoid you. So try taking Qinggong monk. Throw a few scorching rays around (which you can do as soon as you hit level 4 by trading high jump or slow fall), and you can make sure that you remain a priority target. Maybe take Hungry ghost to make it easier to recharge your Ki store by killing all who oppose you. This all stacks with MoMS, so it is a nice plan for what to do with your other resources.
There are ways to make trips easier... mostly through items.
Gauntlets of the skilled maneuver are easy
Also... you can use a trip monk weapon to get the enhancement bonus of the weapon on your trip CMB.
Size is only an issue Ifd they are two size categories larger. And even then with ki throw feats you can play monster bowling... pretty fun.
Still yeah trips are conditional.
And yes you aee correct that panther parries do not use up AOOs. They are their own resource. The attacks from snake fang however ARE attacks of opportunity.
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There are lots of funky builds.
Flowing monk with
Imp trip ,greater trip ,vicious stomp, combat reflexes, medusas wrathFull attack vs three adjacent opponents
Trip one
A successful trip grants you an aoo from greater trip
Your aoo makes the target flat footed
You get another aoo when they fall from vicious stomp
Trip another .. 2 more aoos
Trip a third ... 2 more aoos
Get 2 free attacks from medusas wrath against a flat footed target (aka anything you hit with an aoo)1round 3 trips, 8 attacks (more if hasted or if you spend a ki)
And they provoke again for standing up.
What level are you assuming this character at? Whats your rapid build plan to get to making 3 trips and 8AoO in a round? I would like to write up this character group him with some pregens and run a few mock battles to test his effectiveness not just once he reaches his prime but as he progresses. I've ran my master of many styles so far up to level 7 with pleasing results. Like everyone says my main downfall is once enemies wise up or a metagaming GM.
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There are ways to make trips easier... mostly through items.
Gauntlets of the skilled maneuver are easy
Also... you can use a trip monk weapon to get the enhancement bonus of the weapon on your trip CMB.Size is only an issue Ifd they are two size categories larger. And even then with ki throw feats you can play monster bowling... pretty fun.
Still yeah trips are conditional.
And yes you aee correct that panther parries do not use up AOOs. They are their own resource. The attacks from snake fang however ARE attacks of opportunity.
Instead of taking ki throwing feats what about taking one level of wizard or sorc aslong as you had a cha or int of 11. You then could have the spells enlarge and reduce person. If they are humanoid yoi could not only enlarge yourself but reduce them making it even easier to trip.
This build is interesting to me, just seeing how to minmax it for trip and extra attacks and also have it be able to hold it's own against creatures that can't be tripped.
One thing: flowing monk can't take medusa's wrath as a bonus feat, so you'll have to grab the prereqs (scorpion style and gorgon's something something). This makes this build significantly less appealing, as scorpion style is mediocre at best, and gorgon's whatever is down right terrible.
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On closer inspection i did overlook a few things. I can't take snake style at second level taking fighter because i need 3 ranks of sense motive and to gain the extra attacks from panther style i need to take panther claw as well. Also to use crane reposite (or whatever it's called ) i have to have crane wing as well. And i can't take combat style mastery untill i am either monk level 5 or have a bab of 6. I thought it was all coming together too nicely at such low levels. Have to do some more work.
I see no reason you cant get it all. But start with one style and go from there.
Do you want to be workable from level 1?
You will want, i think, Crane style(all 3), snake style(first and last i think is ok), Panther style(all 3) and Dragon style (1 and 2 for extra damage) MoMS cann have these running in 2 rounds or for one ki at level 15.
then pehaps unarmed figther for the last 5 levels for weapon traing.
I dont see any overpowered in it.nYou will need to have good Dex to get lots of AoOs, Wis for panther style, Con because you will be hit more often than some one that dosent provoke 5 AoOs every round, and Str to make all the attacks matter.
If you start out with the 2 first from crane style And a Level MoMS i think you can have fun character all the way.
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I see no reason you cant get it all. But start with one style and go from there.
Do you want to be workable from level 1?
You will want, i think, Crane style(all 3), snake style(first and last i think is ok), Panther style(all 3) and Dragon style (1 and 2 for extra damage) MoMS cann have these running in 2 rounds or for one ki at level 15.
then pehaps unarmed figther for the last 5 levels for weapon traing.I dont see any overpowered in it.nYou will need to have good Dex to get lots of AoOs, Wis for panther style, Con because you will be hit more often than some one that dosent provoke 5 AoOs every round, and Str to make all the attacks matter.
If you start out with the 2 first from crane style And a Level MoMS i think you can have fun character all the way.
Unfortunately this is a society build so i cap at level 12. As i look at it i see that im not going to be over powered but it sure will be a fun build to play and should be able to hold.my own.
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Here is what i came up with for my final build. Tell me what you think and if you can see ways to improve it but still keeping the same basic play style down.
Human monk of many styles /qinggong monk
Str 11
Dex 18 (16+2)
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 7
Traits: reactive, indomitable faith
Skills: max ranks in sense motive to take advantage of snake fang, perception, acrobatics
Feats:
Human: Dodge
1. Monk- crane style, crane wing
2. Fighter- weapon finesse
3. Monk- snake style, snake fang
4. Combat reflexes. Abi:wis
5. Monk- panther style
6. Monk- replace still mind for scorching rays
7. Fighter- combat styles master
8. Fighter- mobility. Abi:wis
9. Fighter- panther claw
10. Fighter- panther parry
11. Fighter- crane riposte
12. Wind stance
Basic play style is at level 1 flight defensively as often as possible and just assist the party and stay alive. Once get to level 3 go full defense or fight defensively and rely on snake fang. Upon getting pather style use snake amd panther fuse and provoke AoOs for crowd control and on boss fights fuse crane and snake and fight defensively. Level 7 cast a few scorching rays for extra damge. Once getting panther claw provoke provoke provoke. Boss fights always go back to crane and snake and fight defensively.
Seems to me this guy has pretty good saves all around. He is not going to be a tank but should be a contender.
Also 2nd level i use mitheral breastplate or chain shirt with brawling plus carrying a heavy shield in main hand with bashing on it.
What do you think? Contender?
The brawling shirt will help but if i were you i would find a bit more str even if it cost from dex and wis. Being the unhittable man with 6 attacks is no fin if you have to punch a goblin several times to put him down. i would aim for str 16, dex 14 and wis 15 you wont need alot of wis until you get panther style.
That will also save you a feat that can be spend on weapon focus to get the same to hit end result.
I think the shield used as a weapon is counter productive, if you must have a shield just hide behind it and hit folke with your free hand.
(But the Captain America image is cool i admit)
For the figther AT you can look at the Brawler or the Unarmed Figther.
I dont think that you will benefit from having more styles than you can have active at a time. Unless they do very different things. but i must admit i am curious about how you will do with the style switching:)
Good luck.
Do you need such a high wisdom if you plan to wear a chainshirt/mithral breastplate? You are going to lose your wisdom boost to AC anyway. Except for Ki, is there a reason to keep it so high?
Also, remember the armor expert trait. This reduces Armor Check Penalty by 1, and ACP on your attack rolls is the penalty for wearing nonproficient armor. So getting it to 0 means the penalty is 0.
With this trait, you can wear: leather, studded leather, a masterwork chainshirt, or a mithral breastplate. You particularly need it for the breastplate, since mithral only reduces its -4 ACP by 3. Masterwork was always included in the mithral reduction since all mithral items are masterwork.
He need wis for Panther style. I think.
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If i take human, take my first level as monk and take combat reflexes, panther style and panther parry, second level fighter and take snake style, third level monk with snake fang and crane style, fourth and fifth level fighter and take crane wing, crane reposite, and master of many styles feat which allows me to swithch styles as a free action. Always have panther style running, start with it combined with crane style. Once you use the free deflection switch to snake style even after you use your one extra attack you still get two attacks on any creature that takes the AoO against you and misses. For gear use mitheral medium armor to allow max movement with a shield in one hand and the other hand free.
Is it legal?
If I followed your plans correctly you do have 1 big flaw in it. You can't take a free action when it isn't your turn. This means no switching styles after taking the AoO so you lose the the 2 attacks from snake style.
He is trying to provoke AoOs on his turn, to get retaliatory strikes from panther style, then using crane/snake to deflect if his opponent hits... so yes this is legal.
Can't switch on opponents turn, and there are some questions here.
Firstly, you need to take a standard action or full-attack action to make an attack of some sort (maneuvers count) before you can "fight defensively". For crane wing to operate you have to be fighting defensively, so you will need to make an attack first, and [i]THEN[/b] provoke with movement to be able to deflect while using panther style.
Secondly, if you do start by making an attack and fighting defensively, your penalties and bonuses from fighting defensively will revert as soon as you drop crane style. So with crane riposte and 3 acrobatics ranks you have -1 to hit +5 AC. If you switch out of Crane Style the feats all turn off, so you revert to -4 to hit and +3 AC.
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Do you need such a high wisdom if you plan to wear a chainshirt/mithral breastplate? You are going to lose your wisdom boost to AC anyway. Except for Ki, is there a reason to keep it so high?
Also, remember the armor expert trait. This reduces Armor Check Penalty by 1, and ACP on your attack rolls is the penalty for wearing nonproficient armor. So getting it to 0 means the penalty is 0.
With this trait, you can wear: leather, studded leather, a masterwork chainshirt, or a mithral breastplate. You particularly need it for the breastplate, since mithral only reduces its -4 ACP by 3. Masterwork was always included in the mithral reduction since all mithral items are masterwork.
What are you talking about non proficiency with armor? Im a cross classed fighter.
What are you talking about non proficiency with armor? Im a cross classed fighter.
Whoops. Sorry about that. I kind of lean towards repeating such rules and build advice that could be labeled "things I wished I knew when making previous builds". Sorry about that, it was my first reaction towards a monk with high wisdom and armor.
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I would like to thank some of you for pieces of advice in helping make this build. I think this is the final product but any advice or questions are still appreciated.
Human master of many styles/qinggong monk
Traits :indomitable faith (+1will saves) because my last two guys have died from having crappy will saves. And reactionary (+2 to initiative )
Str 14
Dex 16 (14+2)
Con 13
Int 11
Wis 16
Cha 7
Human: combat reflexes
1. Fighter- dodge mobility. Medium armor and lucerene hammer. Fight like a normal fighter with a reach weapon.
2. Monk- panther style. This is where he starts to get a little fun. Ditch the hammer and medium armor, grab a chain shirt and a heavy shield and go capt. America on there ass. Shield and fist, try and provoke as many AoO before stopping in front of an enemy and get 1 attack against everyone who took the AoO against you plus get a final attack against the guy you stopped in front of. Panther attacks are not AoO so take as many as you can get.
3. Monk- snake style, snake fang. Same as level 2 but now each time they miss you with there attack you can take up to 4 extra attacks; 3 AoO from snake fang and one poor sap gets hit woth another unarmed strike if you land your AoO. Thats up to 8 attacks in a round at level 3.
4. Fighter- pather claw. Now this gets crazy. What do you do? Provoke, provoke, provoke! Panther claw allows you to make a number of unarmed attacks equal to your wisdom mod on everyone you provoke an AoO from. That's 3 attacks plus 1 for up to three guys who miss their AoO against you plus an additional 1 on somebody you land your first snake fang on, all before making yout standard attack action. increase wisdom for 4th level. Try to get mitheral breast plate of brawling asap.
5. Monk- panther parry. Now your retaliation attacks are resolved before your opponents AoO. So at 5 level you might kill them before they even get to finish their AoO. Again you can do this as many times as there are enemies within range to run past. Take a full round sprint action if you like.
6. Monk
7. Fighter- lunge. Now you can fight back against large characters too.
8. Monk- using the qinggong monk ability replace still mind with scorching ray. Abi wis. Now you can use scorching ray 4/day for those tougher characters. Unarmed strike is now a d8.
9. Fighter- weapon focus fist
10. Fighter- fortified armor training. Could mean the difference between life or death. If a crit might kill you, break the shield.
11. Fighter- windstance. Since you're always on the move this will help protect you from ranged attacks from archers and pesky speel casters.
12. Fighter- lightning stance. Abi dex. Grants you 50 percent concealment as long as you two action move or withdraw.
Carry alot of portions with this build. You're going to need them and just to taunt the enemies, drink the potion in their reach because your wanting them to attack you. This build also helps your party move more freely around the battlefield. Unless the enemies have combat reflexes you can soak up the AoO so your party can move right past the enemy if they want. Hopefully so your cleric can get to you and heal and buff you.
Major weaknesses are if enemies get smart and stop taking AoO against you and metagaming GM's that start encounters with the enemy already knowing not to take AoO against you. Also you are going to get hit alot because you are literally asking for it. CARRY LOTS OF POTIONS.
So what do you think?
I think you are misreading panther style/panther claw...
With panther style you can make 1 retaliatory strike per round as a swift action.
With panther claw you can make a number of retaliatory srrikes per round equal to your wisdom bonus. You get 1 retaliatory strike per AoO provoked, not multiples.
It sounds like you are saying that with a +3 wisdom mod you will get three attacks on each single target that misses you with an AOO and this is way off.
Well... even with unlimited free actions you get "a number of retaliatory strikes on your turn equal to your wisdom modifier". Key wording "your turn". Simple as that.
And it is indeed one trigger, one attack.
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Even after correcting this at level 2 i have the ability to make up to 2 attacks in my turn plus up to 3 AoO if the GM is dumb (so i don't see myself getting these). At level 3 can make up to 6 attacks per round. Level 4, up to 9 max. And up to 10 attacks in one round at level 10, all at full BAB... im happy with that.
The key is that panther claw refers back to panther style and modifies that feat.
The two feats together would read like this:
While using this style, when an opponent makes an attack of opportunity against you for moving through a threatened square, you can spend a FREE action to make a retaliatory unarmed strike attack against that opponent. Your attack is resolved after the triggering attack of opportunity. You can make a number of retaliatory strikes on your turn equal to your wisdom modifer.
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And reading the description of the feats it says a rapid series of blows. So after they make their AoO, when it is my turn to act, i make a rapid series of blow in retaliation to them attacking me. And i make a number of attacks against them equal to my wisdom mod. I like the idea of one trigger one attack because that would give me more attacks per round when i combine it with snake fang but the way it sounds to me, once i trigger it against one enemy i use up to 3 attacks against him and can't use any on the next foe.
I would prefer to make one attack against 3 foes because that gives me a chance to usewe snake fang against those three as well but to make "a rapid series of blows" i think its all or nothing on one foe. Which is still fine with me just not what i thought i was building. I wanted to do my own version of crowd control. Kinda like wirlwind attack but being able to move around to my targets.
That is correct.
There is one problem - Enemies aren't generally stupid enough to keep attacking when they see the crafty monk/fighter/whateveryou'regoingtobe running around and slapping people back. It's still a nice style.
Also, Crane Wing does not trigger Snake Fang or Panther Claw. It counts as a Deflect, meaning neither a Miss or Hit for the purposes of activating the other two styles.When combining the two, if you have a nice high wis and dex mod, you can make a TON of attacks overall, assuming everyone takes a swing. I feel sorry for those attacking with an AoO, or missing with an attack!
Enjoy :)
Now as long as the GM doesn't use metagaming knowledge i should be able to do this atleast once per encounter before they wise up. And what about creatures with low intelligence scores such as animals and undead, shouldn't i be able to do this repeatedly?
As for crane reposite, i realize that it doesn't activate snake fang or panther parry but the attack of opportunity that activates cran reposite, would activate panther parry first, then if he still lives and he finishes his attack and hits to activate the crane wing i then would get another attack against him.
And am i correct in my interpretation of the extra attacks that the attack from panther parry and the second attack from snake fang are not actually AoO's and don't actually count against my 5 AoO i can make in a round?
worth pointing out that it doesnt have to be metagame knowledge exploitation--if some dude in a karate gi is running around kicking the snot out of people when they attack him, word's going to get around (unless there are no survivors from your battles, ever, in which case there'll be rumors of some GRISLY murders across the countryside). people may note your attire and recognize you as the guy from the rumors.
hell, were i your DM you might just run into people pretending to be you to avoid fights or bully folks out of their possessions (which could lead to bounty hunters finding you to collect on a reward that someone got attached to your name).
you might even run into folks who dont believe youre you (and fall for your little shtick when they attack you), since they've run into pretenders to the name before.
after all, once the rumors start flying, folks will think youre ten feet tall and could strangle a tiger with one hand, while shooting lightning from your butt. word of mouth tens to exaggerate after all.
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then again, this is all from the human standpoint, things that aren't quite so intelligent or social would likely fall for your tricks hook, line, and sinker until you smacked 'em a few times.
Since it is for PFS i think it will be wise to expect that some GMs will read some of the styles different than you do and just Roll with it when that happends. Also Lunge is a great feat but i dont think you can use it for the styles since it works in your own turn, at least how i read it. I was thinking that step up could ba an alternative but what you want is reach on your retaliating attacks from panther style yes?
worth pointing out that it doesnt have to be metagame knowledge exploitation--if some dude in a karate gi is running around kicking the snot out of people when they attack him, word's going to get around (unless there are no survivors from your battles, ever, in which case there'll be rumors of some GRISLY murders across the countryside). people may note your attire and recognize you as the guy from the rumors.
hell, were i your DM you might just run into people pretending to be you to avoid fights or bully folks out of their possessions (which could lead to bounty hunters finding you to collect on a reward that someone got attached to your name).
you might even run into folks who dont believe youre you (and fall for your little shtick when they attack you), since they've run into pretenders to the name before.
after all, once the rumors start flying, folks will think youre ten feet tall and could strangle a tiger with one hand, while shooting lightning from your butt. word of mouth tens to exaggerate after all.
He is hardly dressed like a 'karate' master though. He is running around with armor and a shield. If he wore a sword at his hips, it would be hardly indistinguishable from any other warrior. So even if rumors do fly, people would probably discount the punching and kicking as secondary attacks since he couldn't draw his sword in time. Then there would be rumors about a silver clad knight running around, cutting down giants.
That combination is inferior to a Crane Style monk with Flurry of Blows. I've already tried a Master of Many Styles. It sounds great in theory. It isn't very powerful in actual use save in a few specific situations. If the opponent ignores you, you get three attacks per round...four with a ki point...for inferior damage to a regular Flurry Monk.
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I think the key phrase in Panther Parry is "a",
While using Panther Style, you can spend a free action, instead of spending a swift action, to make a retaliatory unarmed strike. You can make a number of retaliatory unarmed strikes on your turn equal to your Wisdom modifier.
"A" is one if they wanted wis mod they would have said, "you can spend free actions, instead of a swift action, to make Wis mod retalitory unarmed strikes."
The idea behind this is you run through 3 mook goblins, provoke from each of them, smack up to wis mod of them and then make your attack as normal.
This by the way sounds like a lot of fun to play, personally I like the weapon finesse route (plus agile amulet of mighty fists) and maybe grabbing Quain Martial Artist for more damage. I just wish you could build this without the fighter levels but those feats seem crucial.
That combination is inferior to a Crane Style monk with Flurry of Blows. I've already tried a Master of Many Styles. It sounds great in theory. It isn't very powerful in actual use save in a few specific situations. If the opponent ignores you, you get three attacks per round...four with a ki point...for inferior damage to a regular Flurry Monk.
If the GM ignores you anyway and goes chasing after the casters, then you could hardly get those flurries off anyway since you have to chase after the enemies.
This game needs a certain degree of engagement between the GM and players to work. Talk with the GM, come to an understanding of how this will work out. Probably best not to be the first person relying on such tactics. Work with people whose GM style you are familiar with.
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Since it is for PFS i think it will be wise to expect that some GMs will read some of the styles different than you do and just Roll with it when that happends. Also Lunge is a great feat but i dont think you can use it for the styles since it works in your own turn, at least how i read it. I was thinking that step up could ba an alternative but what you want is reach on your retaliating attacks from panther style yes?
The retaliating attacks are during your turn. Im running around durning my turn provoking people to attack me and thats how i get the retaliating attacks so i can use lunge with those attacks.
Since it is for PFS i think it will be wise to expect that some GMs will read some of the styles different than you do and just Roll with it when that happends. Also Lunge is a great feat but i dont think you can use it for the styles since it works in your own turn, at least how i read it. I was thinking that step up could ba an alternative but what you want is reach on your retaliating attacks from panther style yes?The retaliating attacks are during your turn. Im running around durning my turn provoking people to attack me and thats how i get the retaliating attacks so i can use lunge with those attacks.
sorry yes you are rigth (the snake attacks is where you will have reach problems)
but my other point is still ehh pointy... In PFS you will often have different GMs.I think it looks like a fun character and a good addition to most groups but.
I suggest you make a more classic back up character to play if you get a GM that dosent read the books like you do. That way you dont have to feel cheatet out of your fun.
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My 9th level Tengu Lore Warden / Manuever Master gets 8 attacks + lots of AOOs (I've run out of all 9 of mine) per round.
In the very few times I've actually had enough enemies, my attack routine looks like this:
*Trip with claw, AOO greater trip, AOO vicious stomp
*Next enemy trip with claw, AOO greater trip, AOO vicious stomp
*Next enemy trip with bite, AOO greater trip, AOO vicious stomp
*Next enemy trip with regular attack, AOO greater trip, AOO vicious stomp
*Next enemy trip with regular attack, AOO greater trip (out of AOOs)
*Blind one of the enemies with Dirty Trick (Flurry of Manuevers)
*Attack someone down with 2 secondary unarmed attacks (improved two-weapon fighting).
His base on the trips is +31 (-7 on claw/bite attacks, -4 on unarmed strike attacks). While each AOO/Unarmed strike only deals d8+8, he still does a ton of damage, blinds one person, and if they happen to be armed relives them of their weapons a la disarm (@ +22, but they should be tripped before I try for +4).
This is of course the "surrounded" setup; vs a single enemy he trips them with a claw, AOOs twice for damage, blinds them, disarms them with other claw (if applicable), then does 4 unarmed strikes and a nearly-worthless bite attack. If they hit (and they have a solid chance since the enemy is prone and blind), he deals a total of 6d8+d3+52.
But even @ 2nd level I could claw/claw/bite/manuever master to trip 4 opponents (at this point I did NOT take my unarmed strike, since it was not worth making the claw/claw/bite -5).
I've considered several times taking Snake Style, but it's basically 2 wasted feats for one feat that is dependent on enemies attacking you; which often doesn't work if there are other squishier targets arround.
Feat setup:
LW1: Agile Manuevers, Combat Reflexes
MM1: Improved Trip
LW2: Combat Expertise, Improved Grapple
LW3: +2 CMB
MM2: Weapon Finessee, Vicious Stomp
MM3: ----
MM4: Greater Trip
MM5: Able to add Wisdom to Manuevers
LW4: Improved Blindfighting (personal preference, I've run into too many "moving in dark / vs greater invis" lately for my tastes), Improved Dirty Trick
If the GM ignores you anyway and goes chasing after the casters, then you could hardly get those flurries off anyway since you have to chase after the enemies.
This game needs a certain degree of engagement between the GM and players to work. Talk with the GM, come to an understanding of how this will work out. Probably best not to be the first person relying on such tactics. Work with people whose GM style you are familiar with.
I agree. I kind of find the idea that NPCs and monsters will look deeply into the cause and effect of game mechanics to make a decision that *may* be otherwise counter-intuitive as a bit off-putting and heavily meta in a negative context.
Best to talk it out with a GM before hand or, in PFS roll your dice and take your chances.
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Why? Players do it; catching people perfectly in cutout of spells or planning movements and such based on each other's (in-game) abilities. You have to fiat that all players/monsters tend to have an understanding of how the mechanics of the world affect them. If someone is getting knocked over each time they try to punch a guy, there's a good chance that people start to realize that it's a bad idea and the guy is taunting them on purpose; one may even make the relatively low DC to realize Panther Style.
Why? Players do it; catching people perfectly in cutout of spells or planning movements and such based on each other's (in-game) abilities. You have to fiat that all players/monsters tend to have an understanding of how the mechanics of the world affect them. If someone is getting knocked over each time they try to punch a guy, there's a good chance that people start to realize that it's a bad idea and the guy is taunting them on purpose; one may even make the relatively low DC to realize Panther Style.
I can see it being done sometimes, especially to challenge a player and differ how they face combat, but metagaming as a matter of course to intentionally marginalize a character concept in an already gimped class is pretty cheap DMing.