C'mon, Nicos... You complain about Pouncing Superstitious Barbarians and then creates a Human Dual-Talented Qinggong Monk with a Temple Sword? You can do better than that!
Hell, I even mentioned that exact kind of Monk build as being particularly uninspired!
Qiggong Zen Archer can work... Or the good old Qiggong Str-based Temple Sword-wielding Monk...
You just have to accept that your Monk barely looks like what you'd expect from a Monk.
Apparently, the only way to make Monks look good is making them look nothing like Monks. :)
Maybe common, but certainly not that far away in power level.
Eh... That's arguable...
By the way every monk is a quinggong so I do not see argument in there.
That makes as much sense as saying "every Barbarian is a Invulnerable Rager". Not that I have anything against using the more effective options.
What kind of monk would you like to see?
Don't any particular preference, actually, but one that still look like a Monk would be nice. Temple Swords feel more like Greatswords than Monk weapons.
By the other hand, and very importantly, A monk woudl do great against a bunch of cr 6-8 opponets. And lets face it, solo encouneters are not htat hard compared with a fight against mixed monsters.
I never understood this argument... Everyone is good against mooks! That's what makes them mooks! And Monks are not better than any other class at killing mooks.
You are cuting a lot of builds. By the same token is not like a falchion is the archetypical barbarian weapon. But well, i suppose youwant a unnarmed monk.
Not falchions specifically, of course, but 2-handed bladed weapons in general are very iconic to Barbarians. Similarly, a Monk fighting unarmed or wielding any kind of Monk weapon is very iconic to the class.
I'm not "cutting" any builds. I'm just saying making Oni-spawn/Dual Talented Monks with Temple Swords is not particularly impressive or convincing. It makes it seem like those things are necessary for a Monk to work, so they are more of a limitation than a capability.
Look at my characters in the build thread I created. Most of them are not avoid obvious race choices because they don't help the argument. Like Dr.Fighty McCharming. I wanted to prove that Fighters could be skilled party-face character and still be viable, so I made him an Half-Elf with no archetypes instead of a Human Lore Warden Fighter, despite the fact that such race/archetype selection would give me 3 extra skill points.
Invulnerable rager can not be combined with some others archetypes, big difference.By the way every monk is a quinggong so I do not see argument in there.That makes as much sense as saying "every Barbarian is a Invulnerable Rager". Not that I have anything against using the more effective options.
As much as I love the Invulnerable Rager archetype, it can't be mixed with every archetype like the Quinggong monk. The only upside is it doesn't really change who the barbarian is, it gives up uncanny dodge and fast movement which aren't inherent to who he is.
One thing is to build interesting character and other thing is to build solid character.
And all my builds in that thread were both. Well, I suppose "interesting" is a matter of opinion and personal taste, but all of them were perfectly playable.
The dual wiendling temple sword can be boring to build, to show and to see posted but it is solid enough.
Like I said, I'm not cutting any build. But if there are only 1 or 2 ways to make a Monk work and/or these ways make him look like a completely different class, then it's a big sign that the class is very flawed. If a few specific options are necessary, then they are a restriction, not a capability. e.g.: A Human Lore Warden doesn't really prove Fighters can be skilled characters (Well, technically it does, but you get my point), it proves that Human Lore Wardens can be skilled characters. If you only have 1 way of doing something, then that 1 way is a limitation, not a capability.
It is not the point of the thread to see if the monk have interesting builds, the point is to see if the monk have solid builds.
I'll repeat myself: It's possible and not even all that difficult to make a viable Monk. The difficulty lies on making a viable Monk that still feels like a Monk.
As much as I love the Invulnerable Rager archetype, it can't be mixed with every archetype like the Quinggong monk. The only upside is it doesn't really change who the barbarian is, it gives up uncanny dodge and fast movement which aren't inherent to who he is.
Only Uncanny Dodge, actually.
I'll repeat myself: It's possible and not even all that difficult to make a viable Monk. The difficulty lies on making a viable Monk that still feels like a Monk.That "feeling" is very subjetive. I agree thatn zen archers and mounted soheis are not particlary monkish, but other monk weapons are iconic.
Give me some parameters of what would be a monkish monk to you.
Subjective? Yes, but not difficult to guess. Make a Monk who uses Monk weapons (other than temple swords) or unarmed strikes. One who uses no armor and is still a combat class, not a Fighter with better saves and lower BAB or a Wisdom-based buffer.
Hell, I even posted one myself! A non-human unarmed Monk. Although it still used Qinggong powers, because Barkskin is just too good to pass.
I'll repeat myself: It's possible and not even all that difficult to make a viable Monk. The difficulty lies on making a viable Monk that still feels like a Monk.That "feeling" is very subjetive. I agree thatn zen archers and mounted soheis are not particlary monkish, but other monk weapons are iconic.
Give me some parameters of what woudl be a monkish monk to you.
Shirtless! Face! Puncher!
Am I allowed to call the shots?
Ok, I would like to see that bard that defeated the monk. 10th level she was?Yeah. After my friend's Fighter shut down all of the guy's bragging about how unstoppable monks are when you make them correctly, like him and he started in on 3/4 casters, I took on his challenge under his specifications. As it turns out I still have the bard I threw together on my myth-weavers.
Ok, outside the doubtful interpretation on armor check penalty what I am missin? I am only counting 28 for the AC.
10+ 2 dex +1 insight +2 def +1 Nat +1 dodge +2 shield +9 armor
EDIT: BTW, wht is the PB?
+3 Dex. See the temp. score on the character sheet. The +ability score items were left off the sheet (but accounted for) for simplicity. The modifications for the score were placed in the Temp. side of the sheet because it makes it easier when someone drops something like greater dispel magic / antimagic field / mage's disjunction on you.
The point buy was whatever the monk guy decided. I don't remember off the top of my head so I'd have to reverse engineer it. I prefer 15 PB, but the online game we usually played was 25 PB (pretty much explicitly to give advantages to MAD classes like monks).
One of the things you probably noticed looking at the bard is that you can probably build one that's far, far more optimized. That wouldn't surprise me. In fact, it's intended. I threw her gold pieces in few items and dumped her skill points quickly. I chose a short sword for fun because I figured it wasn't used much and I liked the idea of it. If I was going for more optimal I would have definitely made it a longsword so she could 2-handed swing it when she wasn't casting spells (because hey, free damage) and it's still useful in grapples.
But it wasn't built to be a great bard capable of handling a difficult campaign, it was just thrown together for a mock battle. The fact that the bard rolled isn't worth much was actually part of the joke. The same way that the fighter the monk fought the first time took a few rounds before he even started fighting or how he beat the monk to death with his bare fists as a joke (because the monk was like, "Aha, I have disarmed you!" and the fighter was like "Aha, now you get the punchline!").
That was the point. This guy was bragging about how super powerful his monk was and how it made all the martials cry, was untouchable by casters, blah, blah, blah. The entire point of it was utterly school him with characters that he himself declared to be weaksauce.
And if that sounds like a jerk move, please understand that it came after he was being very irritating. We tried to - nicely - explain that he was overestimating and underestimating quite a few things, and having looked at his sheet explained that some of his statistics really weren't as high relatively as he was making them out to be (kind of like how he was bragging about his attack bonus that was barely above the teens, no higher than +16 I don't think on his main attack). It was only when he told us to back up our words that we bothered to roll some characters and fight with his monk.
The CR 7 spellcaster rocked his world worst of all though. His only hope of killing it was to beat it on initiative and grab it before it got to make its first move. After that first move he was just a sitting duck and forfeited on round 3 as he was getting obliterated by direct damage spells and swarms.
As much as I love the Invulnerable Rager archetype, it can't be mixed with every archetype like the Quinggong monk. The only upside is it doesn't really change who the barbarian is, it gives up uncanny dodge and fast movement which aren't inherent to who he is.Only Uncanny Dodge, actually.
But ouch, Uncanny Dodge is painful to give up. :P
But ouch, Uncanny Dodge is painful to give up. :PAs much as I love the Invulnerable Rager archetype, it can't be mixed with every archetype like the Quinggong monk. The only upside is it doesn't really change who the barbarian is, it gives up uncanny dodge and fast movement which aren't inherent to who he is.Only Uncanny Dodge, actually.
You never know, there might be evil nasty rogues lurking about. Everyone knows those are a worse threat than monks. Only thing to fear more than them is a fighter trying to solve problems.
You never know, there might be evil nasty rogues lurking about. Everyone knows those are a worse threat than monks. Only thing to fear more than them is a fighter trying to solve problems.But ouch, Uncanny Dodge is painful to give up. :PAs much as I love the Invulnerable Rager archetype, it can't be mixed with every archetype like the Quinggong monk. The only upside is it doesn't really change who the barbarian is, it gives up uncanny dodge and fast movement which aren't inherent to who he is.Only Uncanny Dodge, actually.
Not just rogues. It makes it impossible for you to be caught flat-footed and makes you not lose dex and dodge bonuses to your AC. It's basically spider-sense.
When not in combat you can walk around taking a total defense (+4 dodge to AC if you're ambushed). Since you are never flat footed you can make AoOs before you have acted or even during the surprise round. Since you never lose your dex/dodge modifiers, invisible enemies don't wreck yo' s****. :P
Uncanny Dodge is awesome. The fact it blocks sneak attacks is just icing. But it's really sexy icing, especially when you're surrounded by kobolds rogues with spears in the darkness in a room full of resetting traps.
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The Fix To The Pathfinder Monk...
Get Tome of Battle
Unarmed Swordsage Variant w/Adaptive Style Feat as Class ability.
Give it a Good Fort OR Full BAB.
Give it both if you're feeling "frisky."
Forget Monk ever existed
Profit
Shameless self-plugging here but...
The Monk my group uses and loves. Far more versatile, fills all the monk niches, is multiclass friendly, allows you to build a monk to your specifications. You could make tons of different monk orders with this monk. Is highly moddable for home use with the option for monk secrets (it's kind of like rogue talents for monks).
A little handbook for ascetic characters which gives tips to GMs for handling characters unmotivated by wealth, or even dispensing with gear entirely and unlocking powers from inside. Basically allows you to replace magic items. This was written for Mikaze due to Vow of Poverty existing only to tease and hurt people who liked the concept.
You can find these on My Blog's Downloads page.
EDIT: That being said, I DO highly recommend picking up the Tome of Battle - Book of Nine Swords if anyone can find it. It's a little harder to find than the psionics rules (which are available on the pfsrd.com and updated periodically and are available in convenient and reasonable costing pdf files from their creators.
Swordsages for the win.
Oh, and I understand that Dreamscarred Press is putting together a Tome of Battle style sourcebook, so I'd highly recommend checking that out and providing feedback on their playtests. They are really good about listening to feedback and such concerning their products and their playtests. Like really good. Like, actually will change a lot of stuff, good (as opposed to pretending it's a playtest to instead tease players or build up interest).
I'll throw a build out there for critique. Probally some calculation errors.
Trait:
Weapon Style (Kusarigama)
Fortune's Favoured
HP 82
Stats
Str 20 (24),
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 7
Wis 14 (18),
CHA 9
AC:
Unbuffed: 26
Buffed (Mage Armour + Bark Skin): 35, 34 when using Risky Striker
Saves:
Fort 13, Ref 14, Will 16
Feats
1. Combat Reflexes, Monk Bonus: Dodge
3. Power Attack. Monk Bonus: Deflect Arrow
4. +1 str, Slowfall -> Barkskin
5. Risky Striker, High Jump -> True Strike
6. Monk Bonus: Improved Trip
7. Weapon Focus: Kusarigama, Wholeness of Body -> Scorching Ray
8. +1 str
9. Arcane Strike
10. Monk Bonus: Improved Critical: Kusarigama
11. Quicken Spell-like Ability (True Strike), Diamond Body -> Ki Leech
12. +1 dex
Single Attacks:
With Kusarigama:
+17 1d4+24 with Power Attack and Arcane Strike
+17 1d4+30 with Power Attack, Arcane Strike, and Risky Strike
+20 1d4+21 with Arcane Strike and Risky Strike
With Unarmed Strike:
+13 2d6+21 with Power Attack, Arcane Strike, Risky Strike
Flurry of Blows:
With Kusarigama:
+22/+22/+17/+17/+12(1d4+20) with Arcane Strike, Risky Strike
+18/+18/+13/+13/+8(1d4+32) with Power Attack, Arcane Strike, Risky Strike
+18/+18/+13/+13/+8(1d4+24) with Power Attack, Arcane Strike
+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8(1d4+29) with Power Attack, Risky Strike, Ki
Special Abilities: Quicken Spell-like ability (True Strike) 3/day
Ki Pool, 10 ki points
CMB +17, Using weapon is +20, +40 if paired with True Strike
CMD 37 (39 vs trip)
Equipment
Belt of Giant Strength +4
Cloak of Resistance +3
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +4
Cracked pale green prism Ion stone (attack)
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
+3 Adamantine Kusarigama
Ring of Protection +3
Broom of Flying
89 Potions of Mage Armour
A lot of people already went over what the monk´s problem is. To put it shortly: monks have long been considered a nuissance in combat - hard to kill, but not really doing all that much either.
Wait sense when was the monk a bad class O.o You get to increase your attacks as a class feature so you get two weapon fighting feat for free... Your AC goes up as you lvl from your class and you get to add your Wis mod to it...
Your saves are amazing...
And your Ki points allow you to be versatile in combat...
I'm Sorry but Monk is a amazing class and has many options it has a few less HP then the fighter and Barbarian but its a great front line fighter that can control the field well.
Okay, how do they control the battlefield, they get scaling damage but not scaling attack, two weapon fighting is subpar and worse without static modifiers to attack and damage, your AC starts out lower than others(16 wis and no bonus, your worse than chainmail) and by level 12 you've caught up with full plate(+3, +4 headband for 20 wis).
Ki points don't do anything to make you versatile. Where are you getting that from? They don't allow you to do anything new or change combat, they increase your AC or make you punch more. That isn't versatile.
They also happen to have few options than barbarian but more than fighter. Fighter being that guy that only has feats and full attacking as class features and barbarians have rage powers which can actually give them options. What do monks get that they don't? Bonus feats? Because any idiot can take a feat.
Or more accurately, can they make as good a contribution as A. N. Other class can.Or more accurately, can they make a positive contribution to the party.
Comparing whether they make as much of a contribution as another class is rollplaying - something I'm not interested in.
I want to know whether a player who wants to play a particular class will end up feeling like a wall flower, doing nothing, as everyone else contributes.
Define "contributes" first, please. The problem here is that if you don't, then as others have pointed out a commoner can be made to "contribute" and I don't think anyone would say a commoner is not mechanically inferior to other classes, on the balance of things.
If the statement being used is: "Monks are mechanically inferior to other player classes because they cannot contribute to party success as effectively as another class can" then you have to invalidate the premise. This statement is my own position, and I can gladly substantiate it with examples (and have in many other threads).
IMHO, Justin simply can't produce a build that proves his point, so he's trying to divert the attention to unrelated topics.
I think he's trying to prove something that we are not actually saying isn't true. You CAN have fun with a monk character. But I personally would have more fun with a monk character if it was mechanically as strong as the other classes they share a party with.
I've repeatedly stated that mechanics are important to roleplaying.
And yet you refuse to accept the validity of comparing mechanical effectiveness to justify or refute the statement that the mechanics of the monk class need improvement.
I do think that there is something of a power creep that the Monks did not get to enjoy as much as everyone else.
Absolutely true. Just about every new feat or item that you can point to, from the Amulet of Mighty Fists onwards, that benefited monks was of equal or more benefit to other classes.
Amulet of Mighty Fists? Druid's best friend.
Style Feats? Better for (often unarmed) fighters.
New weapons? still need Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use them.
Bodywraps of Mighty Strikes? Don't make me laugh.
Brawling armour property? Designed for fighters, specifically made monk-unfriendly.
...and so it goes on.
Barbarians can be used for many of the same roles as a Monk if you use all of the supplements. I question if, between the high speed and high Acrobatics, a Barbarian can keep up with a Monk as the Mobile Support person when you play ONLY core.
The question is, how much mobility do you need? If you are just bouncing around helping out the rest of the party, not much. If you are using it to get to the enemy, you don't want to be too far ahead of the rest of the party or you can get minced while they play catch up. I suppose there's running away...
I also think that there is some "openmindedness" that needs to occur. I posted an example earlier of having my Monk backflip out of a flanking situation over his opponent due to his high Acrobatics. The immediate response was "Well Barbarians can't be Flanked!", which kind of misses the point. The Monk can in many ways simulate that via his mobility, whereas the same cannot be said of a Barbarian simulating the Improved Evasion without aid.
Actually, this assumes that the monk has invested skill ranks into Acrobatics as well as using his ability (the barbarian didn't need to invest in skills), that there is somewhere un-flanked to jump TO (this may not be the case, and the barbarian doesn't need it), and after all that you were flanked for a round anyway before you could act (barbarian is never flanked).
So actually while there are options, they are not as good as the Uncanny Dodge ability. So sure, the monk can do that, but the barbarian is still better.
So, perhaps, what we really need is a huge Monk buff in the upcoming Ultimate Class guide...
Here's hoping!
If the barbarian hit harder but your monk can do something (more or less important) that the barbarian can not, then the monk is fine.
Problem here is that most monk abilities rely on hitting, and he isn't very good at it.
A straight up Sensei/Ki Mystic at 12th level can do quite a lot that a Barbarian can't do and, regardless of what MrSin says, a Sensei/Ki Mystic is definitely a monk.
Interesting choice that bypasses two of the large complaints of monk mechanical weakness - their MAD (the sensei can use Wisdom to hit so is less MAD than a "normal" monk) and poor BAB (the sensei relies on 3/4 BAB but can self-buff it to full BAB, something no other monk can do). So yes, you have successfully demonstrated that monk BAB and Madness are mechanical flaws that need to be fixed before you even start. Nice one.
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Wait sense when was the monk a bad class O.o You get to increase your attacks as a class feature so you get two weapon fighting feat for free... Your AC goes up as you lvl from your class and you get to add your Wis mod to it...
Your saves are amazing...
And your Ki points allow you to be versatile in combat...
I'm Sorry but Monk is a amazing class and has many options it has a few less HP then the fighter and Barbarian but its a great front line fighter that can control the field well.
What everyone is complaining about is they don't contribute to a party enough. While the barbarian has drained the cleric of heal spells and the party fighter has been confused, paralyzed or charmed, the monk continues to fight. In my opinion, their durability allows them to contribute just as much as any other frontline fighter.
Why would a Barbarian need more healing than a Monk? He has DR and more hp, that means he can go longer without healing than the the guy with a d8 hd and mediocre AC.
Not to mention the Barbarian's superior offense means enemies have fewer rounds to hurt him.
And what happened to Justin's "One Wing Angel" monk build?
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Why would a Barbarian need more healing than a Monk? He has DR and more hp, that means he can go longer without healing than the the guy with a d8 hd and mediocre AC.
Not to mention the Barbarian's superior offense means enemies have fewer rounds to hurt him.
That's just from my experience. The barbarians I've played with definitely dish out a lot of damage, but they tend to take a lot of damage as well with their weaker AC. Also, I wouldn't call a monk's AC mediocre.
That's just from my experience. The barbarians I've played with definitely dish out a lot of damage, but they tend to take a lot of damage as well with their weaker AC. Also, I wouldn't call a monk's AC mediocre.
Just throwing it out there, but barbarians don't actually have to dump their AC. If you don't kill things they tend to keep hitting you back too...
That's just from my experience. The barbarians I've played with definitely dish out a lot of damage, but they tend to take a lot of damage as well with their weaker AC. Also, I wouldn't call a monk's AC mediocre.
I would. Monks usually struggle to keep high AC unless they sacrifice a lot of offensive power. Qinggong does help with that, though. Getting Barkskin instead of Slow Fall is just too good of a deal.
Barbarains have decent AC too. They don't take any more damage than any other melee class, except Fighters and maybe Paladins and Cavaliers.
Have you got a monk yet though?
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I would. Monks usually struggle to keep high AC unless they sacrifice a lot of offensive power. Qinggong does help with that, though. Getting Barkskin instead of Slow Fall is just too good of a deal.Barbarains have decent AC too. They don't take any more damage than any other melee class, except Fighters and maybe Paladins and Cavaliers.
Like I said, my experience. I'm a proponent of not getting hit in the first place. My 10th level monk's AC fluctuates between 33 and 37 and I still manage to hit for 40+ damage in a typical flurry.
Like I said, my experience. I'm a proponent of not getting hit in the first place. My 10th level monk's AC fluctuates between 33 and 37 and I still manage to hit for 40+ damage in a typical flurry.
40ish damage isn't really that great, and the system itself is pro offence.
The issue with these builds being show and with what other posters are asking for is that a monk will never compete for utility over any of the other 3/4 BAB classes and won't compete for damage with any of the full BAB classes.
I think that the only way to attempt to build a monk is the focus on a maneuver. I believe a tetori can be effective... maybe not as effective as a barbarian but still. I want to like the flowing monk but there are problems there. First is that his redirect is only usable 1/level... it would have been better as a 1/round ability. The second is that the flowing monks feats change to disinclude medusas wrath... which would have been the main reason to use unbalancing counter.
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So, a monk... level 12... standard WBL, 20 pt buy. That is the challenge yes? I am going to make a tetori, but there is some concern that this "isn't a monk" for whatever reason. I get the argument there for Zen Archer, Weapon Adept or Sohei... but a tetori is still a martial artist, just more Judo than Jujitsu. So, lets go for it
Alright here goes:
Human Tetori Monk
Str:22 (+2 racial, +1 4th, +1 8th, +2 item)
Dex:16 (+1 12th, +2 item)
Con:12
Int:10
Wis:16 (+2 item)
Cha:10
Feats:
H: Power Attack
1: Improved Grapple(T), IUS(M), Snapping Turtle Style
2: Stunning Pin(T)
3: Snapping Turtle Clutch
4:
5: Snapping Turtle Shell
6: Greater Grapple(T)
7: Weapon Focus (Grapple)
8:
9: Rapid Grappler
10: Pinning Knockout(T)
11: Pinning Rend
12:
Items: (108k WBL)
Belt - Anaconda's Coils
Hands - Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver (Grapple)
body - Monk's Robe
chest - Snakeskin Tunic
neck - AoMF +2
ring - RoP +2
headband - Wisdom +2
Shoulders - Resistance +3
(This leaves a fair amount of money to play around with)
Combat:
So, this monk is all about grappling. Lets go over it
Grapple CMB: +12(lvl), +6(str), +4(feats), +2(gauntlets), +2(coils), +1(focus), +4(Grab)
So, Grapple CMB = +31 (+28 when power attacking)
Grapple CMD = 46
Full Round Grapple, Round 1
Grapple 1 +31, Establish Constrict for 1d6+6
Grapple 2 +31, Pin Target, Constrict for 1d6+6
Rapid Grapple +31, Damage, Constrict for 1d6+6, Unarmed Strike for 2d8+8, Pinning Rend: creature begins to bleed for 2d8/round
Target is denied dex and may only attempt to escape. Escape CMD is 46. Creature bleeds for 2d8
Full Round Grapple, Round 2
(Power attacking)
Grapple 1 +33, dmg plus constrict: 2d8+1d6+20
Grapple 2 +33, dmg plus constrict: 2d8+1d6+20
Grapple 3 +33, dmg plus constrict: 2d8+1d6+20
So... taking a look at CR 12-14 monsters, this tetori is going to do really well at keeping a hold. An adult Bronze dragon (CR 13) will need to roll a 20 to escape. The tetori also has a decent AC of 25. Not great, but there is room in the budget to get some bracers of armor, so it could be a 29.
so if you can establish the pin, you are dealing (at best) 8d8+3d6+60 damage per round, or an average of 106.5
Tetori, tetori! :D
My childhood was filled with Tetori Monks.
The mighty Tetori Monk is a peerless warrior!
It's too bad they hemorrhage ki points so fiercely. 1-2 ki per grab attempt as part of an unarmed strike, and 1 ki/round to prevent things like freedom of movement from stopping him outright. On the flip side, it does help against those pesky grease spells you have to suffer through during the first 8 levels, so there is some righteous vengeance at least.
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I'm not say El Fuerte is a Tetori... He's more of an Damage/Trip Monk with Improved Grapple. (And he flavors some trip attempts as grapples, but truly, they are trip attacks).
Zangief is a Tetori, though. THE Tetori. Except he has full BAB. :D
More monk love! At least, until you realize monks actually aren't very good at most of these concepts. :P
Most SF/Tekken/MK/Whatever-Fighting-Game-you-can-think-of characters have maybe 1 or 2 levels of Monk... And then something else completely different. They also use some sort of gestalt rules.
Most SF/Tekken/MK/Whatever-Fighting-Game-you-can-think-of characters have maybe 1 or 2 levels of Monk... And then something else completely different. They also use some sort of gestalt rules.
Well the monk I posted can handle most of them. It's very versatile. >:)