If I have 2 primary attacks I still need TWF correct?


Rules Questions


Like for Catfolk with their racial trait or Ratfolk with the feat

Liberty's Edge

No. Natural attacks work differently than TWF. The cat folks claws are primary attacks so both attacks are at full BAB with no penalty just like a monster attack. Now if you try to combine natural and weapon attacks things get a bit tricky, (for example the Tengu's bite attack would become a secondary attack at a -5 penalty when combined with weapons), but otherwise the two systems operate separately.


You get all of your natural attacks at full BAB. No TWF required. I recommend playing a squid rogue with 20 Strength.


Yes. And all primary natural attacks can be used as part as a full attack. As a standard action, you may only swing with one claw.


Or bite, or tentacle, or whatever.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

You get one attack with each primary natural weapon at full BAB (and one for each secondary at BAB -5) when using a full attack action. However, you don't gain additional attacks for a BAB over +5 when using natural attacks (you still only get one attack per natural weapon).

You can mix natural weapon attacks with manufactured ("normal") weapons. The "normal" weapon can gain additional attacks from BAB, but all the natural weapons (even the primary ones) are treated as secondary (BAB -5).

Mixing natural weapon attacks with unarmed strikes has some additional considerations, especially for monks. See Feral Combat Training.


Dragonchess Player wrote:
...you don't gain additional attacks for a BAB over +5 when using natural attacks (you still only get one attack per natural weapon)...

I'm having a hard time finding this rule- is it under natural attacks or BAB?


Combat wrote:

Natural Attacks

Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.


blahpers wrote:
Combat wrote:

Natural Attacks

Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.

Thanks! Looks like combining natural and artificial weapons is a little more attractive than I used to give it credit for.


Oh yes, you can make some pretty monstrous builds that way. Especially if you have extra arms.


Monks can make this very nasty, especially if they go TWF instead of Flurry. Take a catfolk, for example, give it a bite attack (several ways to get those). Then do the following (assuming level 11 and no bonuses):

+9 Kick, +9 Kick (TWF), +4 Kick, -1 Kick, +4 Claw, +4 Claw, +4 Bite

You want multiattack feat with that, so your secondary attacks become -2 instead of -5, which ups those claw attacks to +7.

Shadow Lodge

mdt wrote:

Monks can make this very nasty, especially if they go TWF instead of Flurry. Take a catfolk, for example, give it a bite attack (several ways to get those). Then do the following (assuming level 11 and no bonuses):

+9 Kick, +9 Kick (TWF), +4 Kick, -1 Kick, +4 Claw, +4 Claw, +4 Bite

You want multiattack feat with that, so your secondary attacks become -2 instead of -5, which ups those claw attacks to +7.

You have one too many kicks in there. Looks like you're using the Flurry BAB, which is higher. It would be Kick +8/+8/+3, Bite +3, Claw +3/+3. Level 11 Monks have BAB +8 except for Flurry.

Still, pretty effing nasty.


if you have a animal companion, is there feats that allow more attacks at higher bab then?


jlighter wrote:
mdt wrote:

Monks can make this very nasty, especially if they go TWF instead of Flurry. Take a catfolk, for example, give it a bite attack (several ways to get those). Then do the following (assuming level 11 and no bonuses):

+9 Kick, +9 Kick (TWF), +4 Kick, -1 Kick, +4 Claw, +4 Claw, +4 Bite

You want multiattack feat with that, so your secondary attacks become -2 instead of -5, which ups those claw attacks to +7.

You have one too many kicks in there. Looks like you're using the Flurry BAB, which is higher. It would be Kick +8/+8/+3, Bite +3, Claw +3/+3. Level 11 Monks have BAB +8 except for Flurry.

Still, pretty effing nasty.

Yeah, I said level 11 but meant 11 BAB. Sorry.

But you're off on your BABs in your correction.

Assuming BAB +8 :

8 - 2 (TWF) = +6/+6 (TWF)/+1, Bite +1, Claw +1/+1

Mine were correct for BAB +11

Shadow Lodge

Right. I did forget the TWF penalties.


Another thing to keep in mind is that you don't even need TWF if you're using more than one weapon, but not exceeding your BAB allowance. For example, if you have a Longsword in 1 hand and a Mace in the other and +11 BAB for 3 iterative attacks, you could make any of the following combos:

Longsword+11/Longsword+6/Longsword+1
Longsword +11/Longsword+6/Mace+1
Longsword+11/Mace+6/Longsword+1
Longsword+11/Mace+6/Mace+1
Mace+11/Longsword+6/Longsword+1
Mace+11/Longsword+1/Mace+1
Mace+11/Mace+6/Longsword+1
Mace+11/Mace+6/Mace+1

None of these combos require TWF penalties nor get reduced Str to damage (all get 1x Str to damage). You could even mix Unarmed Strikes and Boot Blade attacks in there and, so long as you keep to your +11/+6/+1 BAB iteratives, none of it falls under TWF.


You cant make attacks with limb you holding something in, and if you attack with manufactured weapon all natural attacks become secondary.


DarkPhoenixx wrote:
You cant make attacks with limb you holding something in, and if you attack with manufactured weapon all natural attacks become secondary.

Which brings us into one issue that has come up and been sort of "talked around" by the developers; combining Unarmed Strikes with Natural Weapons. IIRC, SKR is on record saying he finds it "against the spirit of the rules" for you to use "kicks" to get around the limitation of using Claws in conjunction with unarmed strikes. To look at it from another angle, your Unarmed Strike is an abstracted weapon that uses "your whole body" as a single weapon and, by the rules, if you use a particular body part with a natural attack for something else (ie. Claw limb attacking with Sword), it blocks you from using that particular natural attack. By that logic, using your Unarmed Strike ought to block all natural weapons from working; you've used "your body" to attack with, and all natural weapons are part of that body, so the "limb" that they rely on has already been subsumed in the Unarmed Strike attack. There's no solid ruling one way or the other on how this should be adjudicated, but there it is for your consideration; be aware of the situation in case it comes up in your future games.


Gah I ned coffee


Also please note if you use a manufactured weapons with a limb you cannot use a natural attack on that same limb. So, you could swing a sword with both hands but could not then use claws on either hand.


NIghtrider wrote:
if you have a animal companion, is there feats that allow more attacks at higher bab then?

No, but there is this weird part of the animal companion and eidlon feature which actually can.

You see, at 9th level, your animal companion gains the multiattack ability. This feature both includes the multiattack feat (penalty for secondary attacks becomes only -2) and a rule for when you have less than 3 natural attacks.

If it only has 1 or 2 natural attacks, your animal companion basically gets a single iterative attack (as in it does its BAB-5) along with its usual attack at full BAB. This is a specific rule for only certain animal companions, and does not affect PCs. It does make certain animal companions, such as wolves, much more attractive. With only 1 natural attack, it is automatically primary and does 1.5x STR and power attack damage. This works out quite well for wolves, and can make them more competitive with leopards for rangers.

A side note the people tend to forget: secondary natural attacks only do 1/2 STR damage, and they also only get 1/2 power attack damage (much like off hand attacks with TWF). Not related to the above second attack above, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

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