Long story short, I've got a Bard 3, and based on current experience, he needs to tank up a little and carry more of the fight.
Specifics:
Vanilla Bard
Uses Scimitar, but is nonproficient
Follows Sarenrae
Kingmaker campaign
NG
My thoughts:
Lore Warden
Inquisitor or Cleric (gains weapon proficiency)
What advice have you? And when should I multiclass?
I'd get 2nd level spells at 4th. +2 on Inspire Courage at 5th, Versatile Performance at 6th, and 3rd level spells at 7th, a good example of multiclassing is rarely smart in Pathfinder, but I think I need to.
Of all the classes to multiclass with, bard is one of the worst because nearly all of your tricks are class level dependent.
How do you need to "tank up". Maybe it could be solved some other way than dipping?
A few ideas:
-High dex? Take weapon finesse and Dervish Dance. Or, get an Agile weapon.
-Remain a bard. Invest in armor and arcane armor training feats. Take great fortitude and toughness.
-Remain a bard. Take a lot of archery feats.
-Take a combination of fighter/bard/eldritch knight/dragon disciple levels. Fight AND cast.
Dragon disciple is best if you alreasy have a good strength. I personally feel you are better off with straight fighter then lore warden.
Honestly, KM is a great AP for a straight bard. You could just wait until level 7 and get leadersip and a cohort - maybe an archer. That will help with party combat.
Multiclassing is only going to make your problem worse. Using a weapon you are not proficient in is one of the worst things you can do. Either switch to a weapon you are proficient in, or spend a feat for proficiency in scimitar. I would say at this point you would be better of switching weapons. A rapier would be a much better choice.
2nd level bard spells include Heroism which is one of the best bard spells. It is a long lasting buff that adds +2 to just about everything you do. Make sure that is one of you 2nd level spells.
Without knowing your build there is not much more advise anyone can give you.
I'm open to suggestions.
It is seeming that I need to do some damage and such. A simple solution could be taking Scimitar at 5th level, for an effective +4 to hit.
My AC at 17 is not horrible for 3rd level. I expect to soon upgrade my armor and buckler to add another +3 (chain shirt vice studded, and adding +1 to buckler and armor).
I dislike the RP aspect of it, but I could switch to Rapier I suppose. As I'm proficient, and we have a magic one.
Do NOT muli-class at this point. At least wait one more level (if at all).
I need more information to accurately suggest a good alternative though.
Stats, feats, traits, books allowed and any houserules?
Off the cuff Bard 4/Ftr 1/Dragon Disciple 10/Eldritch Knight 5 isn't terrible, but I think straight bard may be better.
I would look at the Battle Herald prestige class. To enter it you will need to take at least one level of Cavalier (probably will want to take a few) but it offers a lot of really nice features and especially in Kingmaker it could be a really great option.
See http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/a-b/battle-her ald
(Fairly stiff skill requirements so you may want to discuss retraining with your GM) and it is best if Leadership is an option in the future.
1 level dip in oracle for that cheesy CHA to AC ability. What the folks have been saying is true don't MC much with a bard you will regret it.
I would absolutely do Battle Herald, except there's no way I'm spending points in those skills, since I'll get them with Versatile Performance, and GM has already ruled that it doesn't provide the prerequisites for the prestige class.
Switching weapons is likely the way to go, although my ancestors will be displeased. Plussing up the armor and shield, and maybe taking Dodge and Shield Focus can help the AC also.
Hmmm, decisions, decisions.
Appreciate the advice above.
Pan wrote: 1 level dip in oracle for that cheesy CHA to AC ability. What ability/part of Oracle has this ability?
Avatar-1 wrote: Pan wrote: 1 level dip in oracle for that cheesy CHA to AC ability. What ability/part of Oracle has this ability? Sidestep from the Lore Oracle.
It replaces Dex for AC, so not as cheesy as Canny Defense.
3rd party ok? Take Additional Traits and make one of them this trait.
Bard/Paladin/Dragon Disciple?
Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote: Long story short, I've got a Bard 3, and based on current experience, he needs to tank up a little and carry more of the fight.
Specifics:
Vanilla Bard
Uses Scimitar, but is nonproficient
Follows Sarenrae
Kingmaker campaign
NG
My thoughts:
Lore Warden
Inquisitor or Cleric (gains weapon proficiency)
What advice have you? And when should I multiclass?
I'd get 2nd level spells at 4th. +2 on Inspire Courage at 5th, Versatile Performance at 6th, and 3rd level spells at 7th, a good example of multiclassing is rarely smart in Pathfinder, but I think I need to.
I think people on the forum are too hard on multiclassing. It can work out well, but you have to have a clear understanding of what you are giving up vs. what you are gaining. Multiclassing generally works best when you are trying to be great at one thing, at the expense of not doing as many things a single class character could do well.
So what do you want to do well?
A few questions:
Why vanilla Bard if you want to use the scimitar and already worship Sarenrae? Why not Dervish of the Dawn?
Why use scimitar when you aren't proficient? From your weapon, deity, and mention of "ancestors" it sounds like you might be Keleshite. So your race is human? Why didn't you take proficiency as a feat (1st or human)? If not human, what race are you?
What are your attribute scores?
Bard 4/Cav 1/Battle Herald 10/Bard 5
Is actually pretty sexy. Take the Arcane Duelist and Standard Bearer Archetypes for Bard and Cav respectively.You end up with 17 BAB, full inspire courage, but only 3rd level spells. Still makes for a nice Martial with light support casting(Haste/Good Hope), Arcane Bond, and some bonus feats and awesome leadership bonuses if you are allowed the feat. Also Breastplate of Command is really good.
I would actually argue sticking with bard until level 7, so you can start performances as a move action and get 3rd level spells, too. After that you can consider Dragon Disciple, which is probably your best option if you absolutely must multiclass. In the meantime, switch to rapier or whip.
You decide that your clumsiness with the scimitar is not giving such a noble weapon the reverence it deserves. You will continue to carry it sheathed to respect the traditions of your ancestors but switch to a weapon with which you feel more comfortable in battle.
Alternatively, would your DM be open to letting you switch up your weapon proficiencies from rapier to scimitar to reflect your character's upbringing?
What are your stats? If you have high Strenght, some levels in Dragon Disciple or even Battle Herald may be good choices. Lore warden is a useful dip on many occasions, but unless we know more about your build and your intentions we cannot suggest you more than potential ideas.
Personally I wouldn't worry about the skill point cost of battle herald - I think it is well worth trading some skill versatility for the features of the class. Among others being better BAB progression and higher hp plus some really nifty unique abilities (inspire command) that are very nice.
And there is a lot that a level or two of cavalier could offer you - lots of flexibility depending on the order you choose (may also be able to be a samurai I don't recall if they would qualify or not. Sword saint is an interesting archetype if you would qualify.
Rycaut wrote: Personally I wouldn't worry about the skill point cost of battle herald - I think it is well worth trading some skill versatility for the features of the class.. 17 skill ranks is not a minor obstacle to overcome!
I did Versatile Performance (Keyboard) already, so the Diplomacy and Intimidate ranks would be wasted. Perform (Oratory) is thus also wasted because it's not what I would us the 6th level Versatile Performance on, and then the 2 Profession ranks are needed.
Jackanory wrote: You decide that your clumsiness with the scimitar is not giving such a noble weapon the reverence it deserves. You will continue to carry it sheathed to respect the traditions of your ancestors but switch to a weapon with which you feel more comfortable in battle. I think I'm actually going to go this route, and go with either long sword or rapier. My STR is 14, so don't need to finesse the Rapier, and being able to 2H the long sword if required is nice.
Samasboy1 wrote:
A few questions:
Why vanilla Bard if you want to use the scimitar and already worship Sarenrae? Why not Dervish of the Dawn?
Why use scimitar when you aren't proficient? From your weapon, deity, and mention of "ancestors" it sounds like you might be Keleshite. So your race is human? Why didn't you take proficiency as a feat (1st or human)? If not human, what race are you?
What are your attribute scores?
Dervish of Dawn isn't a Bard at all, no knowledge, no inspire courage, yuck.
Yes, Kelleshite, I used feats on other things. I'll post my character when I return home, most likely Sunday.
2 levels of Paladin is nice for smite evil and Cha to saves, but you're NG making that harder.
Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger for the Cha synergy, use a pistol for your first attack, drop it on a weapon cord and you've got a hand free for your scimitar which you can Dervish Dance, or if you don't go the DD route then straight up TWF with the pistol and sword.
Synthesist, everything is more tanky with synthesist, plus with Charisma as main stat it helps with summoning. More of a situational tank really.
Heimdall666 wrote: Synthesist, everything is more tanky with synthesist, plus with Charisma as main stat it helps with summoning. More of a situational tank really. dipping synthesist is a trap unless you're a class that already can't wear armor, and you have an average to low Con.
if you don't want to multiclass, don't- either spend a feat to get scimitar proficiency or retire it to a ceremonial weapon (keep one that you keep in excellent condition and wear in formal settings, but fight with the magical rapier- your ancestors also don't want you to join them prematurely just because you were too proud to use another weapon). if you do want to multiclass just pick something that will augment your combat abilities without interfering or competing with your primary (bard) abilities... i think lore warden is a decent fit (get the prof. you need, a bonus feat, and don't miss out on too many skill points), or ranger, maybe with the guide archetype (no bonus feat, but get proficiency, don't miss out on any skill points, and pick up some version of favored enemy).
Never multiclass a bard unless you've seriously skimped on charisma and are going into battle herald.
If your melee stat is only 14 your main shtick is casting or performance so just keep your focus there and do what you can.
If you want to become more of a frontliner, take 4 lvls of Dragon Disciple after 7th lvl. But as Atarlost said, with 14 str you should mainly rely on your spells to fill your combat rounds and maybe attacks with a composite shortbow. Enter melee only as a last resort.
XMorsX wrote: If you want to become more of a frontliner, take 4 lvls of Dragon Disciple after 7th lvl. But as Atarlost said, with 14 str you should mainly rely on your spells to fill your combat rounds and maybe attacks with a composite shortbow. Enter melee only as a last resort.
Dragon Disciple is a bad deal if the game will go much past level 10 and has at least one other person routinely making weapon attack and damage rolls. If you're benefiting anyone but yourself with inspire courage it is far better to bump that to +3 at level 10 and get discordant voice at 11 than to get +2 strength at 9 and again at 11. Actually, even if you're alone it's better. The first +2 doesn't put you over a threshold so it's just the same thing a level early but you lose casting and it doesn't apply to ranged attack rolls and discordant voice is +1d6 sonic damage, and arcane strike bumps to +3 at level 10 instead of level 11. Dragon disciple winds up sacrificing casting for slightly stronger melee at levels 9 and 11 while being weaker at level 10 and weaker past 12.
Oh, and you miss out on dirge of doom for 4 levels and dirge of doom is how you make spells stick as a bard.
Just because bard looks like a good entry to a prestige class doesn't mean the prestige class is worth leaving bard. It's almost certainly not.
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