Have gun will travel... [PFS Legal]

[lucky7]

This song got me thinking about a gunslinger/paladin combo. Thinking of going Divine Hunter paladin, Mysterious Stranger rogue, with focus on things like Vital Strike. Any thoughts.

[Ipslore the Red]

Have you seen the Holy Gun archetype?

[karossii]

Holy Gun is not PFS legal.

Yes, a Paladin Gunslinger is, but a Holy Gun is not. Trust me, it makes sense to somebody...

[Nefreet]

I have a Musket Master-6/Divine Hunter-2/Weapon Master-4 in PFS.

In hindsight, I would not have gone with Divine Hunter. The bonus feat, in the long run, just didn't make it worth it. I would have gone 3 levels of Paladin instead, for the immunity to fear, and taken the Oath of Vengeance.

YMMV.

[El Baron de los Banditos]

karossii wrote:

Holy Gun is not PFS legal.

Yes, a Paladin Gunslinger is, but a Holy Gun is not. Trust me, it makes sense to somebody...

Firearms in Golarion are rare enough that having every gun-toting archetype didn't make sense to the Campaign Leadership. The compromise of "NO GUNS IN FANTASY" and "PEWPEW SPACE LASERS FROM SPACE" was to ban the archetypes and force the investment of at least one level in the class built to wield guns.

Nefreet wrote:

In hindsight, I would not have gone with Divine Hunter. The bonus feat, in the long run, just didn't make it worth it. I would have gone 3 levels of Paladin instead, for the immunity to fear, and taken the Oath of Vengeance.

At least you can retrain around that if you really want to now, right? Applying 13 levels of an archetype to a pre-Ultimate Magic Cavalier annihilated his PA.

[Nefreet]

I could. The character is 12.1 now and I have others I like more that I'll be taking through the retirement arc. She will most likely never be played again.

For her 1st game I showed up as a Holy Gun. She was my 2nd character and i was still new to PFS. The GM let me play, but made it clear the archetype was illegal and I'd have to retrain. I really wanted to do all 12 levels as Holy Gun, too.

Since I had a character concept in mind, I went home to piecemeal what I could together to make it work. As she leveled I constantly changed my mind as to what path to go down, and ended up optimizing. Really made her not fun to play, and I just pulled her out when the party needed a designated damage dealer.

[Hlynrian]

He's meaner'en a rattlesnake and twice as fast with dem pistols.

[Arcwin]

El Baron de los Banditos wrote:

karossii wrote:

Holy Gun is not PFS legal.

Yes, a Paladin Gunslinger is, but a Holy Gun is not. Trust me, it makes sense to somebody...

Firearms in Golarion are rare enough that having every gun-toting archetype didn't make sense to the Campaign Leadership. The compromise of "NO GUNS IN FANTASY" and "PEWPEW SPACE LASERS FROM SPACE" was to ban the archetypes and force the investment of at least one level in the class built to wield guns.

I don't really think much of the banning of the gun archetypes. If someone thought they were a little too front-loaded because of granting gun proficiency and related skills... the obvious solution in my view is just to require them to start with one level of gunslinger, not ban the archetypes all together.

[RainyDayNinja]

Arcwin wrote:

El Baron de los Banditos wrote:

karossii wrote:

Holy Gun is not PFS legal.

Yes, a Paladin Gunslinger is, but a Holy Gun is not. Trust me, it makes sense to somebody...

Firearms in Golarion are rare enough that having every gun-toting archetype didn't make sense to the Campaign Leadership. The compromise of "NO GUNS IN FANTASY" and "PEWPEW SPACE LASERS FROM SPACE" was to ban the archetypes and force the investment of at least one level in the class built to wield guns.

I don't really think much of the banning of the gun archetypes. If someone thought they were a little too front-loaded because of granting gun proficiency and related skills... the obvious solution in my view is just to require them to start with one level of gunslinger, not ban the archetypes all together.

It wasn't an issue of power. In the world of Golarion, guns are rare and recent enough that the blending of guns with other disciplines is virtually unheard of. So the church of Iomedae doesn't know enough about guns to start training Holy Gun Paladins, and the arcane universities don't know enough about guns to start training Spellslinger Wizards, etc. (Although I hear a boon for playing a Spellslinger was auctioned off at PaizoCon for charity, but it was a one-time thing).

[Soluzar]

I think the banning of the gun archetypes was unnecessary. The price of firearms and the purchasing limitations for them does the job well enough. If you want another reason you could also put the cost of ammo on the list as well.

[RainyDayNinja]

As far as a build goes, I'd look at something like this:

Human
10/16/13/10/10/17

Mysterious Stranger 1: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, [Gunslinger stuff]
Paladin 1: [Paladin stuff]
P2: Deadly Aim, Divine Grace
MS2: Lucky
MS3: Rapid Reload
MS4: Rapid Shot
MS5: Stranger's Fortune, Clustered Shots
Paladin for the rest

Between Divine Grace, Lucky, and good base saves, you could easily afford to drop Wisdom to free up build points for more Con, Str, or Int.

[trollbill]

Nefreet wrote:

I have a Musket Master-6/Divine Hunter-2/Weapon Master-4 in PFS.

In hindsight, I would not have gone with Divine Hunter. The bonus feat, in the long run, just didn't make it worth it. I would have gone 3 levels of Paladin instead, for the immunity to fear, and taken the Oath of Vengeance.

YMMV.

Ditto here. I have a Mysterious Stranger 7/Paladin 3 currently in PFS. My initial plan was to just take 2 levels of Divine Hunter, which would have been fine. But after playing the character for a while, I decided I wanted more levels of Paladin and I couldn't stand what you got as a Divine Hunter after 2nd. I ended up spending 10 PP to retrain.

FYI, Oath of Vengeance doesn't do you any good until 4th level.

[trollbill]

RainyDayNinja wrote:

As far as a build goes, I'd look at something like this:

Human
10/16/13/10/10/17

Mysterious Stranger 1: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, [Gunslinger stuff]
Paladin 1: [Paladin stuff]
P2: Deadly Aim, Divine Grace
MS2: Lucky
MS3: Rapid Reload
MS4: Rapid Shot
MS5: Stranger's Fortune, Clustered Shots
Paladin for the rest

Between Divine Grace, Lucky, and good base saves, you could easily afford to drop Wisdom to free up build points for more Con, Str, or Int.

I am not sure if Clustered Shot is worth it for a Paladin since they can bypass the DR of evil creatures with Smite Evil. That only leaves neutral creatures with DR to deal with. Spending a little money on special material bullets might be a better deal.

[RainyDayNinja]

Huh. For some reason I thought Smite Evil only bypassed DR of evil outsiders. Anyway, from that point on you can pretty much do whatever you want with your feats, since you have all the essentials.

[Rerednaw]

RainyDayNinja wrote:

Huh. For some reason I thought Smite Evil only bypassed DR of evil outsiders. Anyway, from that point on you can pretty much do whatever you want with your feats, since you have all the essentials.

Actually I've always interpreted Smite Evil as bypassing all DR, regardless of the target alignment/alignment subtype.

PRD wrote:

Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.

By RAW:

Target type does not have to be evil.
If the target is non-evil, you don't get the attack or damage bonuses, but that clause is missing from the section regarding DR bypass. It's why I see Paladins smiting Golems and Huge Elementals...

Edit: Huh, I read a bit more and came up with this:

PRD wrote:

... If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.

Then I guess I'll have to disallow pally smiting of anything then. :)

And in any case, with regard to the OP, there was a thread on a alternate Gunslinger+Divine class build, Gunslinger+Inquisitor. Lots of wisdom synergy.

Though I do admit Gunpal does has some appeal for me. I'll have to decide once my Gunslinger dings 2 where to go with him.

[cnetarian]

Soluzar wrote:

I think the banning of the gun archetypes was unnecessary. The price of firearms and the purchasing limitations for them does the job well enough. If you want another reason you could also put the cost of ammo on the list as well.

Dunno about that, the thing is when everything goes right and a gunslinger can unload they are incredible. Sure it is rare for everything to line up just right for a gunslinger, but the rush when it happens more than makes up for the all-too-numerous times when something goes wrong. Ah, that feeling of glory makes some of us addicted to gun wielding regardless of the limitations.

[karossii]

The issue I have is that almost every archetype can be simulated by multiclassing, feats, tricks, talents, etc. The only one which is a major pain to do so, if not impossible to do so, is the spellslinger.

If it WERE the free gun which is the issue with the archetypes, rule that no archetypes grant it for free.

But none of those who are outspoken against it, or at least supportive of the decision, claim it is the free gun. They claim it is the flavor of the setting. That an archetype is not the same as an individual who multiclasses and selects feats and traits and tricks and talents et al.; but that an archetype means that there is necessarily a huge group of people who all do that.

I think that is crap. I think an archetype is a metagame concept, just as is a class or a feat. It is up to a player to determine how to integrate the flavor of their character with the mechanics of their character, and both with the flavor of the setting.

I can demonstrably completely and utterly BREAK the flavor of golarion well within the rules of PFS allowed materials. I can roleplay a dimensional traveler from earth or oerth or faerun or cybertron; or a time traveler, or anything I wish to flavor it as. I may get nasty looks and admonishments from fellow players and DMs, but I would not be breaking the rules (only the spirit).

Likewise, I can play within the spirit of the game, with what materials they currently have as blacklisted, such as the non-gunslinger, gun toting archetypes.

Game mechanics do not (or at least, should not) enforce flavor. They are a metagame construct, and can be used to help giude flavor, but are not the flavor. This is not a computer roleplaying game. It is not an MMO. This is a roleplaying game, and flavor is entirely within the minds of the players at the table. It is their responsibility to ensure they fit their characters into the world (or don't, as they choose).

Okay... That's my rant...

[trollbill]

karossii wrote:

The issue I have is that almost every archetype can be simulated by multiclassing, feats, tricks, talents, etc. The only one which is a major pain to do so, if not impossible to do so, is the spellslinger.

A Myrmidarch/Gunslinger would probably be the closest on that.

[RtrnofdMax]

The build I finally settled on for my Pally Gunslinger is just one level of Mysterious Stranger, 9 of Oath of Vengeance Paladin and 2 of Lore Warden Fighter.

MS1: Gets you guns and +Cha to damage. Go high enough Charisma and you should always have enough uses of Focused Aim. I gave considerations to going with 3 levels (for an initiative boost), or 5 for the misfire ignorance, but I decided I wanted to get the most out of my Smite damage. I will be getting Reliable and Lucky on my weapon to greatly reduce the misfire chance.

OoV Pally9: This gets you Divine Grace, nearly endless smites and most of the smite damage of a full Paladin. I can make up the 3 lost levels (and then some) with Bracers of the Avenging Knight.

LW2: This was purely for feats. I wanted to use my PFS Ifrit Boon so I didn't have the Human bonus feat. I took my first level at 3rd so I could get Rapid Shot. I will take my second level at 8th when I can pick up Improved Crit. If you are human, or more patient, you can drop the fighter levels.

Carry a back up gun and/or a bow for the early levels. You will still get the disappointing misfire here and there, but this build has a DPR of 200+ against Evil Outsiders at level 12.

[James Risner]

Rerednaw wrote:

If the target is non-evil, you don't get the attack or damage bonuses, but that clause is missing from the section regarding DR bypass.

I totally don't agree with you and don't believe and shall not ever believe you can get any benefit from Smite Evil on a non-evil target.

[Tumskunde]

A thought.
Lets see if I can do this right.
You only need the Gunsmithing feat to buy guns, and then the proficiency to use it, any class can take them.
I was thinking, 'would it work for a pure paladin?'
So I tried building some, I'm only going to show the feat levels, as eerything else is gravy.
Human Paladin, pure build.
Feats
1 Gunsmithing
1 EX Prof: Pistol
3 Rapid Reload
5 Point Blank Shot
7 Precise Shot
9 Rapid Shot
11 Deadly Aim
Can work, but feat drained and only 'decent' in late levels.

Human Divine Hunter, pure build
At level 11 you can use a smite to gain deadly aim, plus you start with precise shot.
1 Gunsmithing
1 EX Prof: Pistol
3 Point Blank Shot
5 Rapid Reload
7 Rapid Shot
9 Amateur Gunslinger
11 Extra Grit or Extra Smite or Deadly Aim or Unsanctioned Knowledge.

I had a few that worked better but included multiclassing, it's late and I work early. So I'll have to get back with them.
They were a fairly standard:
Paladin 11, Mysterious Stranger 1
Divine Hunter 9, Musket Master 3.
There was one that was crazy:
Monk 3, Ninja 2, Myserious Stranger 1, Hospilier Paladin 4, Champion of Irori 2. A Bronze Gong let you Smite more per day, plus you could Smite Chaos for more versatility, check the Champion of Irori guide for more info on that setup.

[trollbill]

James Risner wrote:

Rerednaw wrote:

If the target is non-evil, you don't get the attack or damage bonuses, but that clause is missing from the section regarding DR bypass.

I totally don't agree with you and don't believe and shall not ever believe you can get any benefit from Smite Evil on a non-evil target.

He already corrected himself later in the same post.

[LazarX]

Soluzar wrote:

I think the banning of the gun archetypes was unnecessary. The price of firearms and the purchasing limitations for them does the job well enough. If you want another reason you could also put the cost of ammo on the list as well.

I'm going to say that the gun archetypes did not fit Golarion's setting in the idea that guns are an EMERGING technology, not a widespread one. Something more closer to Eberron is where they belong.

[karossii]

LazarX wrote:

Soluzar wrote:

I think the banning of the gun archetypes was unnecessary. The price of firearms and the purchasing limitations for them does the job well enough. If you want another reason you could also put the cost of ammo on the list as well.

I'm going to say that the gun archetypes did not fit Golarion's setting in the idea that guns are an EMERGING technology, not a widespread one. Something more closer to Eberron is where they belong.

Then the class should have required a boon or something similar to restrict its usage. As it stands, they are simply trying (and failing) to enforce in-game flavor with a metagame mechanics restriction. See my above rant for more about that...

[LazarX]

karossii wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Soluzar wrote:

I think the banning of the gun archetypes was unnecessary. The price of firearms and the purchasing limitations for them does the job well enough. If you want another reason you could also put the cost of ammo on the list as well.

I'm going to say that the gun archetypes did not fit Golarion's setting in the idea that guns are an EMERGING technology, not a widespread one. Something more closer to Eberron is where they belong.

Then the class should have required a boon or something similar to restrict its usage. As it stands, they are simply trying (and failing) to enforce in-game flavor with a metagame mechanics restriction. See my above rant for more about that...

Says you... I think they are quite succeeding in enforcing game flavor with that restriction... Or do you know a cadre of PFS spellslingers and Divine Guns which have escaped notice? They are very successfully enforcing an element of flavor, which restricts guns to a very select group of people who devote themselves to mastering them.

You can be upset for not getting a chance to play your favorite gun archetype in PFS, but adhominem statements aren't going to help your case.

[karossii]

It has nothing to do with my favorite archetype - I have never played a gunslinger of any type, nor any gun based archetypes. I personally have an issue with the perversion of mechanics to enforce flavor. I am not upset with this one ruling so much as the concept. Mechanics do not equal flavor.

And I made no ad hominem statement - you may want to reread my post and/or consult a dictionary. Obviously the term does not mean what you think it means, or else you are (incorrectly) reading much more into my words than what was actually written.

My issue is with misuse of mechanics vs. flavor. I can easily make a character who bypasses all flavor, no matter what mechanical restrictions they apply. Flavor is flavor, and I can - and perfectly within the allowed rules set, make a character who has nothing to do with Golarion and its setting flavor.

As to seeing a cadre of PFS spellslingers or Divine Guns, I don't have to. I *have* seen several wizard gunslingers and paladin gunslingers, which is just as flavor breaking as allowing the archetypes. Allowing the archetypes may influence the number of players making that choice to a minimal degree, but it will have nowhere near the implied impact.