Could an NPC use Knowledge (Local) to identify a PC?

[redward]

(or Knowledge (Planes) for an Aasimar/Tiefling)

1) It only seems fair when the PCs can learn whatever detail they want about their opponent with a sufficient roll.

2) If so, how would one handle the rarity of the "monster" for determining the CR? I think it would be fun if Fame entered into the equation somehow...maybe something like:
10 + CR (level - 1) + (30 - Fame)

So identifying a level 2 PC with 6 fame is DC 35. No one's heard of Dingus Twerply. Identifying a level 9 PC with 42 Fame would be DC 7, or about as easy as identifying a Goblin as a Goblin.

Especially considering very few NPCs would have sufficient Knowledge skill ranks to make any kind of check, I feel like this would be a fun surprise for players:
"In your time with the Society, word of your accomplishments has spread. Wary of your legendary reflexes, the sorceress casts defensively even though you've already taken an Attack of Opportunity."

[Aaron Mayhew]

I love this idea. And there's a precedent for it. There's an undead hunting related trait (forget the name) that says that you come from a famous line of undead hunters, so undead get a +1 bonus to knowlege checks to identify you.

[The Fox]

Knowledge (local) would be appropriate for all PCs, including plane-touched. Aasimar and tieflings are NATIVE outsiders. Knowledge (planes) would be required to identify any racial abilities they have.

[Dhjika]

redward wrote:

(or Knowledge (Planes) for an Aasimar/Tiefling)

1) It only seems fair when the PCs can learn whatever detail they want about their opponent with a sufficient roll.

2) If so, how would one handle the rarity of the "monster" for determining the CR? I think it would be fun if Fame entered into the equation somehow...maybe something like:
10 + CR (level - 1) + (30 - Fame)

So identifying a level 2 PC with 6 fame is DC 35. No one's heard of Dingus Twerply. Identifying a level 9 PC with 42 Fame would be DC 7, or about as easy as identifying a Goblin as a Goblin.

Especially considering very few NPCs would have sufficient Knowledge skill ranks to make any kind of check, I feel like this would be a fun surprise for players:
"In your time with the Society, word of your accomplishments has spread. Wary of your legendary reflexes, the sorceress casts defensively even though you've already taken an Attack of Opportunity."

.

My understanding is that Fame is Fame WITHIN the Pathfinder Society, NOT fame with societies or the world of the all.

So unless the badguy was a present or former pathfinder I don't see it applying.

[Andreas Forster]

In PFS, setting a DC would be a difficult task.

Dhjika wrote:

My understanding is that Fame is Fame WITHIN the Pathfinder Society, NOT fame with societies or the world of the all.

More precicely, it describes how valuable the PC has proven himself for his faction. That's why they grant him more titles and magic item purchases as his fame increases. So unless the bad guy had some connection to the PC's faction, fame wouldn't be much of a factor. But if that bad guy has some way of knowing the favorites of the responsible faction head, the PC's fame would indeed make the roll easier.

Then, there are also some chronicle boons that make the PC better known among some people in Golarion. Some boons even say explicitly a certain NPC will "surely remember the PC".

Rivalry's End vs. My Enemy's Enemy:

My Enemy's Enemy's chronicle says "The Spider will certainly remember the character in the future". In Rivalry's End, the party directly confronts The Spider. When I played Rivalry's End, I informed the GM about my My Enemy's Enemy boon before the game, and he had The Spider give a little "we meet again" talk before the fight.

Sure, the character's level would be of some impact on how well-known the character is, but here's another difficulty: the higher the PC's level, the better the possibility to know about him (or find someone who does). So maybe the DC would look something like (31 - PC's level), which is a 30 for a 1st level character and a 11 for a 20th level character.
But this can only be applied without problems if the NPC has the time to do some research and ask around, which he would only do if the PCs give him a reason to ask around (like obviously trying to meddle with his affairs). If the PCs just stumble into the bad guy's lair, odds are the bad guy has never heard of or seen the PCs before, and therefore knows nothing about them. That's where the GM would have to take a look at the PCs' chronicle sheets and determine who might have come across that particular bad guy before.

In short, while it would be cool to stumble across 'recurring' villains, it's very complicated to know if they actually have a way of knowing the PCs.
I'd say a GM could add in some villainous monologue that indicates the bad guy knows one of the PCs if there's a good reason to do so, but I'd be very cautious about adjusting the NPCs' tactics to the PCs' abilities. (Of course, if there's a very good reason the NPC will know about a certain ability, he should act accordingly.)

[勝20100]

I think PC races are all common, so the basic DC should probably be 5.

I also thought that the knowledge check was made to recognize the race and their racial ability, so levels are not in the CR used in that check. It would be strange if it was more difficult to recognize a 10th level elf (as an elf) than a 1st level one.

[nosig]

During a scenario with a "local thug" encounter, where the PCs are confronted by "hired thugs" intended to warn them off of their research, we captured several of the thugs and were questioning them. Our judge had run another scenario the week before where I had much the same encounter... so he and I (with several "new" PCs) went thru the "interview" something like this....

PC: "So Mook, we meet again!"
Mook #417: "Yeah, if'n I'd knowed it was yous, I might not've takkan dis job".
PC: "and how's the wife? and the little mooks? three isn't it?"
Mook #417: "same oh-same oh, off visitin' her mum again in Durma, and the lil ones is growin' like weeds..."
PC: glancing at the other mooks - stablized and waiting thier turn at interigation "So, does the local Thugs Union have ok Medical benifits? Looks like you guys will need it. Wait, you're Rent-A-Thug aren't you?"
Mook #417: "Not w'at it used ta be, w'at wit da cut backs and all. Had to switch over to Thugs-are-Us."
PC: "Tell ya what Mook, I'll pop for a couple charges off my happy stick when we're done here..."
Mook #417: "Hay, you're all ri't! T'anks!"
PC: "No problem! Least I can do. Now, about the guy who hired you..."

All this while the other players just watched. After all, I said my guy was the "Face"...

[Andreas Forster]

20100 wrote:

I also thought that the knowledge check was made to recognize the race and their racial ability, so levels are not in the CR used in that check. It would be strange if it was more difficult to recognize a 10th level elf (as an elf) than a 1st level one.

When it comes to individual PCs, there are two possible checks to make.

The first one is the one you mention: Identifying the race and the abilities of that race, which is a DC 5, because PC races are very common and a basic member of that race is CR 1/4 - 1/2. This would only give the NPC knowledge of the basic racial abilities and the fact that most members of that race are defined by their classes. It doesn't grant any knowledge about feats, skills or class abilities an individual PC might have.
The second check is a check to know about the particular character, which would be a Gather Information check (unless the NPC happens to know the PC anyway, in which case no check is necessary). In Pathfinder, a Gather Information check is either Diplomacy or Knowledge (local), and it would indeed be easier to gather information about a higher level PC. This can give the NPC information about a PC's class, preferred tactics, and feats. But as I mentioned above, an NPC must have a reason to gather information about a PC. If the PCs surprise the NPC by bursting in, knowledge about them can't just pop into the NPC's mind.

[Jiggy]

Andreas Forster wrote:

In Pathfinder, a Gather Information check is either Diplomacy or Knowledge (local),

No, in Pathfinder gathering information is just Diplomacy (and takes hours to perform).

Unfortunately, a great many PFS scenarios (I can't comment on modules or APs, having not run them and not played many) hand out the same information for a successful Knowledge (local) check as they do for gathering information, so frequently that I've seen otherwise sharp players think that Diplomacy and Knowledge (local) are effectively interchangeable (and that Diplomacy is instantaneous, just like Knowledge).

[nosig]

Jiggy wrote:

Andreas Forster wrote:

In Pathfinder, a Gather Information check is either Diplomacy or Knowledge (local),

No, in Pathfinder gathering information is just Diplomacy (and takes hours to perform).

Unfortunately, a great many PFS scenarios (I can't comment on modules or APs, having not run them and not played many) hand out the same information for a successful Knowledge (local) check as they do for gathering information, so frequently that I've seen otherwise sharp players think that Diplomacy and Knowledge (local) are effectively interchangeable (and that Diplomacy is instantaneous, just like Knowledge).

Jiggy, where is "Gather Information" defined? I was under the impression from early in the campaign - in fact I think it is a hold over from LG - that "a Gather Information check " could be taken with either a Diplomacy check (indicating that you ask the locals and recieve help) or a Knowledge Local check (indicationg that you know the answer or know where to look for it). In fact, often I would allow one to aid the other ("Hay, I know a pub where the local ship captains hang out, maybe you should ask around there?" Kn(Local) aid on a Diplomacy roll).

(edit: I went back and read the Gather Information write-up under the skill Diplomacy. I guess I've been doing it wrong all these years... it still does kind of make sense to me that you could use one skill to "aid another" on the other skill check...)

[Andreas Forster]

Basically, Knowledge (local) is used to actually know stuff about certain parts of a society/population without having to ask around (maybe think a while and try to remember all the important facts). Mostly, this knowledge has been aquired in the past by asking other people, listening to gossip, and reading.

Diplomacy, on the other hand, is used to actually gather information you don't have, meaning you go out and ask around the moment you need the information (and not at some point in the past).

With that in mind, it's perfectly ok for PFS scenarios to ask for any of those two skills when providing additional background information. Either the characters already knew because they have heard about the matter by coincidence (Knowledge [local]) or they don't know and go into town to ask a few people (Diplomacy).

I'm perfectly aware that those skills represent two different things, but the result of both is knowledge about something that's important for the matter at hand.

So, going back to the original question, I think we can agree that it's completely impossible for an NPC to use Diplomacy to find out anything about the PCs unless the PCs alert the NPC about their actions hours before their first encounter.
But could the NPC use Knowledge (local) the moment he sees the PCs? Unless a PC has a boon that actually says he is a bit better-known or has already met the NPC in question, I'd say most Pathfinder Agents aren't famous enough to be known by the bad guy. After all, there are thousands of Pathfinders all over Golarion.

[Matthew Trent]

I think it falls under adding extra things to the modules. IE don't do it.

[Malag]

Kind of agree with Matthew here, but if NPC has been attacked by PC's once and/or alerted by their presence and given sufficient amount of time he might try Knowledge (local) or Diplomacy (gather information) against DC 10 + CR (level - 1) however, depending on subtier, he would get higher or lower penalty on such check.

This is just theorizing however it really almost never happens.

[Andreas Forster]

Matthew Trent wrote:

I think it falls under adding extra things to the modules. IE don't do it.

Good point. In addition, most scenarios are written in a way so the bad guy only learns of the PCs' actions the moment the walk through his door and are ready to fight. In cases where the bad guy has a way of knowing the PCs are after him before they confront him, I think his reaction to finding out will be described as part of the scenario.

If there isn't anything in the scenario that says the NPC will investigate, he won't. And therefore he won't know about the PCs unless any chronicles the PCs have say otherwise. Players should inform the GM about any chronicles that might change an important NPC's behavior towards the PC (I'd encourage everybody to do so, and if you're not sure, just tell the GM anyways. If the GM decides to audit a character and finds a chronicle that's obviously bad for the PC in that scenario, it would be at least a little embarrasssnig for the PC's player.