Dex to damage, maybe twice. But as GM I'd call shenanigans and disallow. Pistol Training Replaces Gun Training (it doesn't say it does on the SRD but it does.)
RAI abuse for the flurry. So, no.
How would he double the attacks?
It's not ridiculous, it's just rule abuse.
|
Sure, he would get three times Dex. But because damage from the same source don't stack (here, the Dexterity modifier), it would only apply once per damage roll.
Flurrying with a firearm wouldn't be unbalanced, especially with all this multiclassing and awful synergy. It would also only be when unarmored.
Lets say I have this example build:
Gunslinger(Pistolero)5/Fighter(Trench Fighter)5 (with Weapon Training in Firearms)/Monk (Sohei) 1
Armed with a double barrel pistol.
By RAW would this character...
Add his DEX bonus to damage three times? (Pistolero Pistol Training (Ex), Gunslinger Gun Training (Ex), Trench Fighter Trench Warfare (Ex))
Expecting this to work simply ignores common sense.
Would be able to Flurry with his weapon? (Weapon training from Fighter and Sohei)
No, even if you ignore the fact that weapon training does not come from Sohei, then ignore the fact that firearms are not on the list given to sohei. Sohei do not get the ability to Flurry with weapons they have weapon training with until level 6.
Also add his STR to damage while using Flurry (if he could)? (Monk Flurry)
If the question about tripple stacking dex did not make me think this whole post was a troll.. i really cant tell if this is a remotely serious question. No they dont get str to damage while flurring with a ranged weapon.
Assuming he has the feats to make reloading his pistol a free action, be able to take -4 on all attacks but double the number of attacks he makes in a full attack/flurry?
Be absolutely ridiculous?
yes, if the character didnt break numerious applications of common sense, and could actually do any of that as a lvl 1 Sohei then yes he would be able to fire twice for every attack.
Mostly it appears to be attempt to get a rise out of forum posters, or ruin the game for people you actually play with.
|
There is a Common Sense clause in the PFS Guide to Organized Play, and most GM's will have a common sense clause in there games, so you aren't going to get a complete RAW game. But technically, yes this is all legal RAW. Anything with any slight non-RAW variation will be illegal. Also, beware over-optimizing your characters, less the GM over-optimize HIS characters (and you die). So, although this is legal, it isn't overall worth it. Not broken, but ubercheese.
why not prune it down to pistolero 5 / sohei monk 15? works great off of wis, not quite so horrible on the monk side (and can still reach 20th-equivalency for AC bonus via monk's robe).
if you simply MUST get weapon training early, then why not pistolero 5 / weapon master fighter 3 / sohei monk 12?
also, youre costing yourself extra attacks from flurry (you only get one basic, then another at monk 8th and 15th) by reducing your monk levels--are you really going to put in 8-10 levels for ONE extra attack (basic flurry), and an additional one at 16-18th level (when most PFS adventures would be long finished)?
|
If 3rd party material is allowed, a Talented Monk could flurry using guns if he took the right talents and edges.
|
|
You can attempt to justify any dumb thing in some fashion I guess, but that doesn't mean this would roll in a game, even if the DM is really lenient and cooperative - ours is, but that kind of thing wouldn't fly in a century, especially considering the obviousness of the RAI oversight.
If you were playing a class wielding a specific gun where you literally punch the bullet with your fire adamantine first our of a canon, this would be pretty awesome, and the rules would support and balance this out, most likely by improving the weapon's damage at the expense of reloading time or replacing Dexterity to the damage modifier while granting incredible recoil to the victim of such a shot. (So awesome even that I think I'll write rules for this someday...)
Right there you are attempting to justify flurrying with a gun that deals (3 X Dexterity modifier + Strength modifier) to damage ; so please stop being insulting to everyone's intelligence by insinuating that people who would never accept this in a game "hate fun".
|
|
Lets say I have this example build:
Gunslinger(Pistolero)5/Fighter(Trench Fighter)5 (with Weapon Training in Firearms)/Monk (Sohei) 1
Armed with a double barrel pistol.
By RAW would this character...
Add his DEX bonus to damage three times? (Pistolero Pistol Training (Ex), Gunslinger Gun Training (Ex), Trench Fighter Trench Warfare (Ex))
Would be able to Flurry with his weapon? (Weapon training from Fighter and Sohei)
Also add his STR to damage while using Flurry (if he could)? (Monk Flurry)
Assuming he has the feats to make reloading his pistol a free action, be able to take -4 on all attacks but double the number of attacks he makes in a full attack/flurry?
Be absolutely ridiculous?
Okay, I can honestly appreciate this as an exercise in thought rather than crying "Common sense" like it's an answer to this. I think people need to realize that this isn't a played build, this is Practical Optimization, the kind of thing that's never going to see light in a game, or if it does, it will happen once and only once as sort of a goof. So let's check this out.
Triple Dex: I do think that Pistolero was errata'd as well, so that you're down to only Gunslinger and Trench Fighter. As for if those stack...Strictest RAW would say yeah, they're both untyped bonuses, so you'd be picking up 2x Dex to damage, and if the other thing isn't errata'd, it'd be 3x damage. Again, that's by strictest reading, so there may be rules that change that of which I'm not aware of.
Gun Flurry: Okay, now this one is more murky, since it's both the class feature and the ability to flurry in one. While the text does say that it lets you flurry with any weapon you have weapon training in, it's also it's own class feature that's letting it do that, it's own Weapon Training that's letting it do that, so there's less grounds to call it clearly. You wouldn't really be out of bounds for saying either, so this needs to be clarified. But you'd still have to be a 6th level Sohei for this to matter.
Str to Flurry: Okay, this one I'm not sure where you're getting it, so if you could show me the relevant text for this, it'd be appreciated. I'd say no on principle though, just since you're using a ranged weapon, and they don't get strength to damage unless otherwise stated (thrown weapons and composite bows.)
Double attacks: Yeah, this one is clean RAW, if you have it down to a free action (alchemical cartridges, Rapid Reload), you can fire away. There's still the issue of each paired shot needing to be at the same target, but aside from that you're free to stack these attacks however you want.
Be Ridiculous: Yeah, this is pretty crazy, and aside from Gun Flurry, I'd be able to clearly say yes or no to what you're doing here. Might want to put gun flurry up for FAQ.
Hm, dont forget the sohei doesnt get any weapon training until level 6. Since this is a special weapon training (ie, he gets ki focus/flurry) I would tend to think, by raw, that you couldnt flurry until you go this special version. After all, it isnt mentionned until level 6, and since it isnt identical (just very similar to weapon training) I would tend to think it would be ruled against. Plus he cant even technically get weapon training with guns ( just bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons), so I would tend to say any other weapon would go against RAW, since they specify the weapons allowed with this special version of weapon training.
As for the whole "multiple stacked bonuses from stats" seems very cheesy. I've yet to see a single example of this happening elsewhere, and as far as I know you cant stack the same bonus multiple times, no matter what abilities you have.
Also, strength to ranged attacks would work, with a composite bow. The wording of the flurry (and the fact that you cant flurry ranged weapons normally, except the shuriken and hanbo) seems to suggest that no, you cant add strength.
Look, I'm not trying to spoil you fun, but if you ever played this, you'd just start a cold war with the DM, and the only people suffering would be the other players (who may or may not want to min-max like this).
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
Add his DEX bonus to damage three times? (Pistolero Pistol Training (Ex), Gunslinger Gun Training (Ex), Trench Fighter Trench Warfare (Ex))
Would be able to Flurry with his weapon?
Also add his STR to damage while using Flurry (if he could)?
Not another Dex to Damage x2 thread.
It is generally understood that you can't add a stat to damage twice or more, as it is the same source. The Gun Training/Pistol Training issue is well know and it does not stack. There will be errata and if you play PFS with a character built using this, there will be no free rebuild when UC errata comes out fixing the typo.Can't flurry with non-Monk weapon.
Can't add STR unless you use it as an Improvised Weapon.
|
|
Add his DEX bonus to damage three times? (Pistolero Pistol Training (Ex), Gunslinger Gun Training (Ex), Trench Fighter Trench Warfare (Ex))
Would be able to Flurry with his weapon?
Also add his STR to damage while using Flurry (if he could)?Not another Dex to Damage x2 thread.
It is generally understood that you can't add a stat to damage twice or more, as it is the same source. The Gun Training/Pistol Training issue is well know and it does not stack. There will be errata and if you play PFS with a character built using this, there will be no free rebuild when UC errata comes out fixing the typo.Can't flurry with non-Monk weapon.
Can't add STR unless you use it as an Improvised Weapon.
The Dex thing I can't speak for, but he has a (semi) plausible way of flurrying with the gun, and the strength thing just seems like an anomoly. There needs to be a clear ruling on the Dex issue though, as just saying "it's common sense" or "It's generally understood" isn't a ruling, it's an opinion. Without a concrete example, it's a typeless bonus, and those are generally the kind that stack.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
(semi) plausible way of flurrying with the gun, and the strength thing just seems like an anomoly.
Without a concrete example, it's a typeless bonus, and those are generally the kind that stack.
Sohei get Flurry with their WT, their WT is not some other class's WT.
Using Trench Fighter to expand Sohei WT is deliberately looking at the English words and dreaming up ways they mean something other than what RAW is.The "same source" rules are just as valid way to block two effects providing Dex to damage, and generally the type is considered ability. I do believe in every case they have clarified that getting Dex to Damage twice isn't allowed (but in some cases indicating the rules are as explicit as they would like.)
|
I'm just not sure why you'd bother with the sohei in this situation.
You could just pick up an extra lvl of fighter and use that bonus feat for TWF. Since you're going ranged anyhow the level of flurry you get from sohei is really negligeble and you're not using anything from the monk really 1 lvl out of 11...
Their weapon training does apply and mix with fighter, read SKRs "if it references another they count with each other" comment like here
|
|
(semi) plausible way of flurrying with the gun, and the strength thing just seems like an anomoly.
Without a concrete example, it's a typeless bonus, and those are generally the kind that stack.
Sohei get Flurry with their WT, their WT is not some other class's WT.
Using Trench Fighter to expand Sohei WT is deliberately looking at the English words and dreaming up ways they mean something other than what RAW is.The "same source" rules are just as valid way to block two effects providing Dex to damage, and generally the type is considered ability. I do believe in every case they have clarified that getting Dex to Damage twice isn't allowed (but in some cases indicating the rules are as explicit as they would like.)
I actually said in my first post that the Weapon Training issue is the weakest link of the issue. I don't care for it not being interconnected, which is my sticking point for it not working. But it's a vague wording, which leads to issues like this.
I will give that the "Same Source" defense against this is valid, so it really matters if this is considered the same source by virtue of it applying the same stat, which again is a weak hinge in this build.
|
|
Sadly, in the warped, full bent form of RAW that can be gathered, this is does work RAW. It is a potent violation of RAI, but it works (for now). Congratulations on finding a few massive loopholes in the rules LoneKnave. You have come very close to achieving the MAX ridiculousness in a single build (but someone will probably find a way to get closer eventually). Good thought experiment.
I definitely think that the Sohei would let you flurry with a gun.
Sohei states "At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level.
So the Weapon training is explicitly the same ability as the Fighter class feature, only the weapon group chosen is limited. It continues:
"A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training."
It doesn't limit flurry to weapons you have WT for from Sohei. Its any weapon you have WT for. And since Sohei WT is the same ability as Fighter WT, then if you have WT from Fighter you should be able to flurry with that weapon too.
Fighters can take WT for firearms, thus you could flurry with firearms.
I don't even see that you would need 6 levels of Sohei. The Sohei gets WT at 6th level, but since the rule is stated "A sohei may use flurry..." and not "A sohei of at least 6th level may use flurry..." I would say the build only needs 1 level of Sohei if it is using WT from another source.
I would agree that you can't get Dex to damage more than once (stacking rules) and couldn't get Str to firearm attacks (the general flurry rules assume a melee or thrown weapon, as these are the only monk weapons, you are using a ranged weapon).
I think I would go Pistolero Gunslinger 16/Weapon Master Fighter 3/Sohei Monk 1.
Advancement like Gunslinger 1/Fighter 3/Sohei 1/Gunslinger rest.
I don't even think its that ridiculous. Won't fit in every game, but it is a good Pathfinder take on the Grammaton Cleric from Equilibrium.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
It doesn't limit flurry to weapons you have WT for from Sohei. Its any weapon you have WT for.
I don't even see that you would need 6 levels of Sohei. The Sohei gets WT at 6th level, but since the rule is stated "A sohei may use flurry..." and not "A sohei of at least 6th level may use flurry..." I would say the build only needs 1 level of Sohei if it is using WT from another source.
I would agree that you can't get Dex to damage more than once (stacking
I'm starting to feel like it is 2008 all over again.
This is the same line of reasoning that was going on in mass on WotC forums just before they decided to kill off 3.5 and make 4th to settle these types of thinking. They fixed the problem by producing errata every week.
In short, this line of thinking (stretching the English to mean things it explicitly does not mean to get a bizarre interpretation is what I think is responsible for the death of 3.5 and now it is starting with Pathfinder.
There is no reasonable way your thinking is RAW, should be RAW, or can be RAW. It can only be RAICBTW (Rules as I can bend the words.)
And I think it is explicitly RAW. See, we have different opinions.
And show me where it "explicitly does not mean" what I said.
It says the Sohei can flurry with any weapon he has WT in. It does not limit that in any way, and in fact does explicitly state that Sohei WT is the same class feature as Fighter WT.
Further the sentence that states a Sohei can flurry with any weapon he has WT with is complete in and of itself. Of course, it is found under WT, which Sohei doesn't get until 6th level, but since WT from other classes works just as well and there is not level requirement to the sentence, you should be able to use it before 6th level.
Thanks for being condescending, but I don't think you have any proof to offer for your statements.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
And I think it is explicitly RAW. See, we have different opinions.
No, I'm following the rules (RAW) and you are aware that you are deliberately coming up with bizarre interpretations that you fully know are not RAW but you can smile while saying "I'm RAW."
Sohei doesn't get until 6th level, but since WT from other classes works just as well and there is not level requirement to the sentence, you should be able to use it before 6th level.
You must have a rule that says this and you do not. I could mention dozens of these, but I'll just quote one as an example:
APG p31: Instant Alchemy (Ex): At 18th level, an alchemist can create alchemical items with almost supernatural speed. He can create any alchemical item as a full-round action if he succeeds at the Craft (alchemy) check and has the appropriate resources at hand to fund the creation. He can apply poison to a weapon as an immediate action.
You are separating each paragraph into multiple benefits in sentences. Then parsing them as if each sentence was a separate unconnected paragraph. In this case you would assert that a 1st level Alchemist could apply poisons as an Immediate Action. The same way you are asserting that the Sohei can Flurry with WT (that he doesn't have.)
The Sohei doesn't have WT because it doesn't have 6th level Sohei:
Core p30: "Such a character would have the powers and abilities of both a 5th-level fighter and a 1st-level wizard"
If you haven't gained 6th level then you don't have that class feature yet, but there isn't any rule that says "if you haven't gotten to a level you don't have that ability." The closest is the replaced rule:
APG p72: "A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites."
|
|
If you haven't gained 6th level then you don't have that class feature yet, but there isn't any rule that says "if you haven't gotten to a level you don't have that ability." The closest is the replaced rule:
APG p72: "A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites."
That's right : you must be 6th level before receiving the ability to flurry with your WT-ed weapons.
Thus you'd need fighter 5/monk 6 : 11 levels before being able to flurry with a gun. Or 3 levels of weapon master/6 levels of monk.Or, you could take 3 levels of musket master gunslinger (weapon focus as first feat), one level of cleric for the musket-wielding gun, then become monk and take Crusader's Flurry as your 5th-level feat.
Or 5 levels of gunslinger for Dex-to-damage.
Or you could try this and have bullet-flurrying fun right at first level without having to wait the epilogue or retirement from your campaign ;)
The Sohei doesn't have WT because it doesn't have 6th level Sohei:
Core p30: "Such a character would have the powers and abilities of both a 5th-level fighter and a 1st-level wizard"If you haven't gained 6th level then you don't have that class feature yet, but there isn't any rule that says "if you haven't gotten to a level you don't have that ability." The closest is the replaced rule:
APG p72: "A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites."
And I could see that point except you do have WT. WT from a different class, but the exact same class ability.
Here is a FAQ that shows that even if from different classes (in the example Magus and Fighter) Weapon and Armor training would stack because they are the same ability.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus -archetypes/myrmidarch
Since the ability to flurry is based on having WT, I don't see the issue. That is, since the ability gained at 6th level is specifically WT, not some other ability called Sohei Flurry or whatever, the clause allowing you to flurry with a WT weapon isn't restricted to 6th level Sohei.
Even if my DM said I needed 6 levels of Sohei in a home game it wouldn't be a build breaker, I would disagree but the build would still work fine.
And you are still being intentionally and unnecessarily ad-hominem. People can disagree over the meaning of RAW. If you disagree just state your position and supporting evidence. No reason to accuse me of duplicity when you don't know me.
looking the trench fighter archetype (posted a few times above, and even in the OP), you could honestly pull it off with trench fighter 5/sohei 15 and get dex-to-damage and weapon training for glove shenanigans (as well as the minor cover bonus).
|
|
And I could see that point except you do have WT. WT from a different class, but the exact same class ability.
Here is a FAQ that shows that even if from different classes (in the example Magus and Fighter) Weapon and Armor training would stack because they are the same ability.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus -archetypes/myrmidarchSince the ability to flurry is based on having WT, I don't see the issue. That is, since the ability gained at 6th level is specifically WT, not some other ability called Sohei Flurry or whatever, the clause allowing you to flurry with a WT weapon isn't restricted to 6th level Sohei.
Armor and weapon training is irrelevant to the thread, as you always receive them with only 1 level in a class.
The ability to flurry with WTed weapons is part of the writing for the 6th level ability, and the flurry of blows ability you receive at 1st level isn't modified in any way at any time (unilke that of an empty hand monk or zen archer...), so you must wait until your are level before receiving WT flurry, period.|
|
Well checking over one of the X stat to Y stat guides, they list at the bottom the opinion of one of the devs about stacking the same stat to something, the first of which is here, although I didn't feel like copying the rest.
So while right now it's not an official FAQ, the design intent is clear, so even if Pistolero wasn't errata'd, there's really no chance of getting dex to damage 3x times, especially if this does go up for FAQ.
I'd say the same of strength bonus to damage, although I can't find any rules quotes that would argue against it, so as far as I can see, it's legal.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
FAQ that shows that even if from different classes ... Weapon ... would stack
the clause allowing you to flurry with a WT weapon isn't restricted to 6th level Sohei.
Your FAQ entry is not applicable, because they are not the same abilities as they do not do the same thing. One allows you to Flurry and the Fighter Weapon Training does not allow you to Flurry.
Until you can get them to FAQ that despite being different abilities they still stack, then you can't claim RAW they stack.
Your dissecting of rules paragraphs to snip out lines isn't even close to valid, allowed, expected, or intended.
My Alchemist example is one of many:
APG p31: He can apply poison to a weapon as an immediate action.
So by your logic all Alchemists can apply Poisons as an Immediate action.
I'd say the same of strength bonus to damage, although I can't find any rules quotes that would argue against it, so as far as I can see, it's legal.
Core: "A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it's a specially built composite shortbow or longbow, or a sling."
Is the gun a composite shortbow or longbow? Is it a sling? If not then no STR to damage ever.
FAQ that shows that even if from different classes ... Weapon ... would stack
the clause allowing you to flurry with a WT weapon isn't restricted to 6th level Sohei.
Your FAQ entry is not applicable, because they are not the same abilities as they do not do the same thing. One allows you to Flurry and the Fighter Weapon Training does not allow you to Flurry.
Until you can get them to FAQ that despite being different abilities they still stack, then you can't claim RAW they stack.
Your dissecting of rules paragraphs to snip out lines isn't even close to valid, allowed, expected, or intended.
My Alchemist example is one of many:
APG p31: He can apply poison to a weapon as an immediate action.
So by your logic all Alchemists can apply Poisons as an Immediate action.I'd say the same of strength bonus to damage, although I can't find any rules quotes that would argue against it, so as far as I can see, it's legal.Core: "A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it's a specially built composite shortbow or longbow, or a sling."
Is the gun a composite shortbow or longbow? Is it a sling? If not then no STR to damage ever.
this post has some helpful links relating to stat double-dipping, with commentary from JJ
FAQ that shows that even if from different classes ... Weapon ... would stack
the clause allowing you to flurry with a WT weapon isn't restricted to 6th level Sohei.
Your FAQ entry is not applicable, because they are not the same abilities as they do not do the same thing. One allows you to Flurry and the Fighter Weapon Training does not allow you to Flurry.
Yeah, cause when the ability is called Weapon Training, and it says "as per Fighter" it can't be the same ability.
Also, you have a heck of a lot of self-importance to tell anyone else what is "valid, allowed, expected, or intended." I was not aware you personally got to decide what was valid or allowed in this game. News to me.
It says that the sohei can flurry with any weapon with WT. But it doesn't change what WT is, it explicitly states it is the same WT as Fighter WT (or Myrmidarch, etc). So yeah, it stacks.
I don't think that is even really your point. You see the line about flurrying with a WT weapon as a new (separate) ability gained at 6th level. Cool, you go with your reading. I see it as a condition of the Sohei archetype that is shown at 6th level because that's when they get WT.
Its not like half of the archetypes aren't horribly written, see the treads on what happens to Quarry when Favored Enemy is removed.
And thanks for continuing to employ personal attacks.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
You see the line about flurrying with a WT weapon as a new (separate) ability gained at 6th level.
If your line of thinking is correct, then there are a number of other abilities that classes get at level 18 or higher.
Directly respond to whether or not a 1st level Alchemist can apply poisons as an immediate action?
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
Do they have the Instant Alchemy at level 1?
Because this sohei has WT at level 1.
No the Sohei gets it at level 6.
The same logic that he is using to say this line is independent of the level here:
UC p60: "Weapon Training (Ex): At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature (Core Rulebook 56): bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training. This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon.
Can be used to assert that a 1st level Alchemist gets this ability:
APG p31: "Instant Alchemy (Ex): At 18th level, an alchemist can create alchemical items with almost supernatural speed. He can create any alchemical item as a full-round action if he succeeds at the Craft (alchemy) check and has the appropriate resources at hand to fund the creation. He can apply poison to a weapon as an immediate action."