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As I travel farther down the bunnyhole of animal companion optimization I am working out what to pre-combat buff my buddy with. this lead me to Lead Blades and the question of how it interacts with animal companion natural attacks. I went digging and I guess my thread hunting skills are terrible. does anyone have a ruling on whether or not Lead blades increases the weapon size of animal companion attacks.
My first thought is that it will based on the fact that lead blades says "All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are." with no limitation on material or natural. I guess the only interpretation against this would be do you carry natural weapons?
i would be using "share spells" to give my AC this buff.
Cassius Ardolen, Demon hunting Ranger.
Technically natural weapons aren't 'carried' they are wielded. There is a definite distinction between natural weapons and other melee weapons (including unarmed strikes), though natural weapons are used in [i]melee[/ii ]. This is one of those game definitions vs general English definition situations. If you go to the game equipment lists and go down the list of melee weapons you won't find a 'natural attack' (either general or specific) there.
The spell you need to be using is Strong Jaw for this situation. That is specifically for Natural Weapons.
I would say no. The spell is lead blades not lead paws! It's a big stretch to apply lead blades to natural attacks.
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Wouldnt share spells allow it to be affected even though it would not normally be afected by it?Yes it would. And as soon as your animal companion is using manufactured weapons it will be an awesome buff.
well its only limitations are weapons held. It has nothing to do with manufactured weapons. The real rules interpretation that matters is wether or not natural weapons are considered held.
I seem to recall some weapons useable by animal companions, magic claws and such. It should work with those.
...horseshoes, etc.
So lets get this straight. You are questioning if animal claws are considered to be held weapons?i think that is what this spell and ability combi ation boils down to. So yes.
Actually the question isn't regarding "held weapons", as Lead Blades affects weapons you are carrying.
IMO, this is quite clearly different from natural attacks and unarmed attacks that are part of your body.
...horseshoes, etc.
Making horseshoes and such into weapons would have that rather sad consequence that the creature has to make iterative attacks and TWF rather than a natural weapons full attack.
So lets get this straight. You are questioning if animal claws are considered to be held weapons?i think that is what this spell and ability combi ation boils down to. So yes.
Hilarious. Now that's some wishful thinking!
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So with what are they exactly holding those "weapons"?So lets get this straight. You are questioning if animal claws are considered to be held weapons?i think that is what this spell and ability combi ation boils down to. So yes.
that's where the RAI breaks down. but also our mis-quoting of the spell.
"All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are."
Do you not carry your fists? would you not carry your teeth in your mouth? The "carrying" can be better interpreted as "all melee weapons on your person" the spell is targeting YOU not your weapons, thus YOU are causing YOUR weapons to deal damage as though they are one size category larger. This interpretation seems more in line with the effects of the spell treating you as a target. where the "weapons held" interpretation is more in line with the targeting of the weapons.
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You could interpret that every part of your body is being carried then. So where do you wish to stop exactly? Teeth? Tongue? Neck? Bones? Livers? Kidney? Did my kidney just became a weapon?
Do you get what I am saying? Body is body. Carried Weapon is a weapon carried with your limb or in a backpack. You cannot carry your own fists otherwise you are going into endless philosophical debate which will never stop. I sincerely doubt that this spell is so complicated.
This interpretation seems more in line with the effects of the spell treating you as a target. where the "weapons held" interpretation is more in line with the targeting of the weapons.
I have to disagree.
"Carrying" suggest an item that are not part of your body.
Compared to "weapons held" it simply states that it affect any weapon you are carrying, not only those in your hand at the time of casting.
It does not because there is a differnet spell strong jaw which increases the damage die of natural weapons. If lead blades were allowed to do what you want it to, it renders the other spell completely superfluous.
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It does not because there is a differnet spell strong jaw which increases the damage die of natural weapons. If lead blades were allowed to do what you want it to, it renders the other spell completely superfluous.
actually no, lead blades only increases a single size category, strong jaw does 2 size categories and is actually written to specifically bump up natural weapon attacks. Lead blades is no where near as concise.
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DreadFury, Lead Blades is for manufactured weapons only. To buff your AC you need spells Like Strong Jaw, Animal Growth, Bulls Strength, Bears Endurance, IT comes down to a balance issue if you let Lead Blades effect natural weapons it would Negate Strong Jaw and vastly diminish Animal Growth. Both of which are higher level spells.
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Under the most restrictive use of language the spell almost makes no sense. it is a personal spell based on touch, so the weapons you carry at the time of the casting are treated a size larger, thus it is not targeting the personal it is targeting the weapons, but the spell only works for you.
I am hardly interpreting the spell loosely i am trying to figure out if the spell is targeting you as per the personal or your weapons which would be a target of the weapon. the spell descriptions counter each other here.
i am saying if the spell targets you, then weapons you use are treated as a size larger. if natural attacks are considered weapons, then they count for the spell.
if the spell targets the weapons you carry then it would not target natural attacks (to be restrictive for the purposes of PFS)
the third layer is this, i am using share spells to target my animal companion as me, so my Animal Companion will treat either the weapons he carries or the weapons he uses as a size category larger. if natural attacks are weapons they count for the spell.
it may be a long winded explanation but it is hardly a "loose" interpretation.
So with what are they exactly holding those "weapons"?So lets get this straight. You are questioning if animal claws are considered to be held weapons?i think that is what this spell and ability combi ation boils down to. So yes.that's where the RAI breaks down. but also our mis-quoting of the spell.
"All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are."
Do you not carry your fists? would you not carry your teeth in your mouth? The "carrying" can be better interpreted as "all melee weapons on your person" the spell is targeting YOU not your weapons, thus YOU are causing YOUR weapons to deal damage as though they are one size category larger. This interpretation seems more in line with the effects of the spell treating you as a target. where the "weapons held" interpretation is more in line with the targeting of the weapons.
RAI aside, To say that you 'carry' your natural attacks is a huge stretch from the RAW. Does that mean that the weight of your hands and teeth should be included in your 'carrying capacitiy'? When teleport trap teleports you but not what you carry (such as in the tomb of horrors) do you leave your fists and teeth behind? To consider natural attacks as carried items clearly stretches reasonable interpretation.
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This does not work.
The druid may cast a spell with a target of “You” on her animal companion (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on herself. A druid may cast spells on her animal companion even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion's type (animal). Spells cast in this way must come from a class that grants an animal companion. This ability does not allow the animal to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.
School transmutation; Level ranger 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal
Target touch
Duration 1 minute/level (D)
Lead blades increases the momentum and density of your melee weapons just as they strike a foe. All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are. For instance, a Medium longsword normally deals 1d8 points of damage, but it would instead deal 2d6 points of damage if benefiting from lead blades. Only you can benefit from this spell. If anyone else uses one of your weapons to make an attack it deals damage as normal for its size.
Many times I have to remind players of the specifics of Share Spells in PFS because people tend to have a very liberal interpretation of how it works.
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This does not work.
The druid may cast a spell with a target of “You” on her animal companion (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on herself. A druid may cast spells on her animal companion even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion's type (animal). Spells cast in this way must come from a class that grants an animal companion. This ability does not allow the animal to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.Many times I have to remind players of the specifics of Share Spells in PFS because people tend to have a very liberal interpretation of how it works.School transmutation; Level ranger 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal
Target touch
Duration 1 minute/level (D)
Lead blades increases the momentum and density of your melee weapons just as they strike a foe. All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are. For instance, a Medium longsword normally deals 1d8 points of damage, but it would instead deal 2d6 points of damage if benefiting from lead blades. Only you can benefit from this spell. If anyone else uses one of your weapons to make an attack it deals damage as normal for its size.
Wow do i feel silly. I must have mixed up the range and the target. That pretty much answers all i neednto know. Thanknyou
So lets get this straight. You are questioning if animal claws are considered to be held weapons?i think that is what this spell and ability combi ation boils down to. So yes.
They're not. You want the spell strongjaw for this. Spells usually only work on manufactured or natural weapons (monks are special becausae their fists are both)
Shfish: another problem is that shared spells worked differently in 3.5 and some people haven't noticed the difference.
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*facepalm*
No, Shfish. You are incorrect. The two sentences you're referencing are talking about two totally different things.
The druid may cast a spell with a target of “You” on her animal companion (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on herself.
This is one complete thought. It means that spells with a target of "You" may be cast on your animal companion. That's it. If you see a Druid spell in any book with a target of "You", it qualifies.
A druid may cast spells on her animal companion even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion's type (animal).
This sentence is only talking about "type". If the spell you were casting normally only affected humanoids, and not animals, then Share Spells allows you to ignore that limitation. That's it.
This has nothing to do with Lead Blades specifically, just Share Spells generally. Personal spells with a target of "Touch" don't qualify to be shared with your animal companion. If Lead Blades was "Range: Touch" and "Target: Weapons touched", then we'd be having a different discussion.
Lead Blades: No
Strong Jaw: Yes
If you are a Druid or Ranger you can cast it. If you are not, get a wand and a UMD score.
I would allow the hooves of a horse that has horseshoes as carried weapon but not the bite.
It's possible to make a gauntlet type of appendage for an animal in order to be affected by lead blades. For the bite to be affected you'd need something very extraordinary and as a general rule I'd dissallow it, unless someone puts a reasonable idea forward, that the companion would actually use as teeth (I don't think that's possible).
And before I forget: The companion needs to spend a feat on using this weapon (or maybe a trick as in handle animal) If it doesn't want penalties on it's attack rolls.