I have a player who decided to make a rogue who focused on Int and Cha rather than Dex... She is beginning to feel the pain of that choice though and I was wondering if there were any feats out there that would allow her to use Int or Cha on attack rather than Dex or Str?
Any help appreciated...
She seems out of luck.
The Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger) get to add cha to damage with guns, but is probably no a great solution.
If I were you, I would simply let her change her stats around a bit to get her Dex up. I doesn't seem like she knew what she was doing, so a rebuild is probably going to be the best solution for all of you as a group.
Point her towards the Kirin Style feat tree. It gives you +2 to Ac and saves against enemies which you make a successful knowledge check against, and later gives you double your Int mod to dmg, and the ability to take movement when an identified enemy ends their turn adjacent to you. The best way to achieve this quickly is two levels of Master of Many Styles (Monk Archetype). She's still going to lack +s to hit, but you could just let him to re-spec her Cha to Dex.
Whats the stat array, and is duelist an option?
I have a player
If your the DM you could just homebrew something if you really wanted to. There were some things in 3.5 I know of, but not any in Pathfinder unfortunately.
I have a player who decided to make a rogue who focused on Int and Cha rather than Dex... She is beginning to feel the pain of that choice though and I was wondering if there were any feats out there that would allow her to use Int or Cha on attack rather than Dex or Str?
Any help appreciated...
OK, By way of explanation, the game is a 2nd time of troubles... Mythic game. each of the players has a bit of some God in them and she houses Oghma.
She is a Gnome Rogue who loves tearing things apart and inventing things (couldn't find an archetype or class that fit better... except maybe alchemist and she poo poo'd that).
Her stats are 10's except Dex:12, Int: 15, Cha: 17. She sees herself as a skill-monkey/party-face. She will do well at both. I don't think she intends to put any tier stat advancement into Dex...
They are only 3rd level now so she isn't really seeing how bad she is doing because everyone kind of blows at those levels. But as they level and they tier up, the fights are going to be soooo much tougher and she is going to contribute less and less. I know she is going to try and work at trap crafting and that will help some but all D&D, even Pathfinder, essentially revolves around combat, where she is going to hurt...
Knowing her she won't want to change much, already having an idea in her head as to how her character should look, so I was hoping to point her in the direction of an easy-to-get feat or some such...
Someone mentioned Kirin style and I looked it up, that's not a bad idea... takes a while to get to but it could be effective when she gets there. Question though:
/snip/ While using Kirin Style against a
creature you have identified using that feat, as a swift
action after you have hit a creature with a melee or ranged
attack, you can add twice your Intelligence modifier
in damage (minimum 2). /snip/
Since Kirin style requires you to spend a swift action to get the +2 on saving throws, does that mean she has to wait till next round when she has another swift action to attack with the 2 x Int. damage? Or do they mention swift simply because they are reminding you that the initial Kirin tyle ate your swift action....
Anyway, sorry for over-babbling at you : ) If I house-rule something my other players may feel, hmm slighted, but I may go that route. Someone said there was something in 3.5? Can anyone tell me where?
Thanks again
I really think you should talk to her about your concern.
If you suggest to her that a respec to a higher dex might make her character more fun to play in the long run, it is up to her to make the decision.
If she don't want to, then it is her choice, and you should not make houserules (or look for weird 3.5 feats) to make her character work.
Alternatively you could have her consider the arcane trickster. It won't make her super efficient, but it can provide her with more options.
Also if she wants traps, steer her towards the kobold bloodline.
Well...she could dip White-haired Witch - that would get her a natural attack with Int to damage. If she picked the Prehensile Hair hex, it'd get her a secondary attack too, with Int to hit and damage on that one...there are also wizard schools and sorc bloodlines that use int or cha to hit and damage, but only a few times a day.
Engineer the most memorable player death possible, with all the character's strengths shining before the event goes down.
Such is the fate of face/skill monkey rogues.
does that mean she has to wait till next round when she has another swift action to attack with the 2 x Int. damage?
Yes! Kirin style is feat hungry, has high prereqs(12 knowledge arcana even though it has nothing! to do with arcana...), and to get that bonus damage you need to spend a swift action on that round and you only get it on that attack.
Someone said there was something in 3.5? Can anyone tell me where?
Swashbuckler's get intuitive strike which gives intellect to damage, Swordsages get wisdom to damage, and shadow hand discipline can use a feat to get dex to damage while in a shadowhand stance(assassin style with a dip for +2d6 sneak attack), and there were a few others I missed probably. Here's a list on another forum. A really big list!
Why worry about her Dex? A Dex of 12 is still a +1. If this is a Mythic campaign, then the second Tier will give her a +2 to any one stat... and Tier 3 will open up a series of options to increase one specific stat by +2.
If she's not perfect in combat? Oh well. There are ways around that. For instance, there's a 2nd level buff that increases Dex by +4; that would improve her a/c by 2, and so forth. Similarly she can go into other classes as well.
Finally, if she's happy with the character, then why worry? (BTW, a 14-point build? She should have an additional +1 to a stat somewhere.)
To be honest? If your doing mythic she will be fine. She can basically us3 trickery to force diplomacy when it wouldnt be allowed normally. There are a few smallfolk feats that let the pc use bluff in place of some other skills i think that is the best rout for her.
With a cha:17 she should focus around a feint style in her combat, with feats that would allow for feinting as a swift action. Her opponents are flat footed, flat footed = sneak attack. Seeing as she gets 1D6 every other level even with a dagger she could still do formidable amounts of damage even without a str bonus. Can’t forget your rogue talents, take the one that gives 1 bleed for each D6 of sneak, swirl in a bit of dual wielding and you have a skinny little gnome who looks like they couldn’t hurt a fly but after 3 rounds in combat with her your laying in the gutter trying not to bleed to death.
Feigning in pathfinder is actually pretty awful. You always give up an attack for it, and many foes get a 5 or more bonus against it(if not outright immune!). It also eats up plenty of feats. Your to hit is the main problem I think, if you don't have strength or dex and 3/4 BAB you aren't going to hit very reliably, which is why its reasonable to look for alternatives like intelligence and charisma. Which are things you'd expect a rogue to be good at, right? The bleed damage doesn't stack, so if you were a level 8 rogue you'd only do 4 damage per round from bleed, which is pretty pitiful really. Sneak attack looks great, but you still need to hit.
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does that mean she has to wait till next round when she has another swift action to attack with the 2 x Int. damage?Yes! Kirin style is feat hungry, has high prereqs(12 knowledge arcana even though it has nothing! to do with arcana...), and to get that bonus damage you need to spend a swift action on that round and you only get it on that attack.
Kirin style takes too long to set up.
Round 1: swift action enter stance
Round 2: swift action knowledge check
Round 3: swift action int to damage
Even if the combat lasts three rounds, its outcome is most likely already decided.
I have a player who decided to make a rogue who focused on Int and Cha rather than Dex... She is beginning to feel the pain of that choice though and I was wondering if there were any feats out there that would allow her to use Int or Cha on attack rather than Dex or Str?
Any help appreciated...
Arcane Trickster. Reflavor spells to be inventions. Sorcerer as entry class. Check out the 3rd party feat "Street Mage" as a freebie to help her.
I know the bleed dosen't stack, and I'm not trying to min/max this thing.
Well if someone ask for advice you should give good advice. Don't mean to sound insulting, but people on the advice forum are usually asking for the best thing to do.
So far as I know you only need one feat to feint as a swift action
Feint is never a swift action. There are two routes to go for feint. You can go Improved Feint > Greater Feint, or you can go Two Weapon Feint > Improved Two Weapon Feint. Both require combat expertise and 13 int as prereqs(Most if not all combat maneuver related feats do), and two weapon feint requires two weapon fighting(natch!). Both require giving up actions too(first attack in two weapon fighting, or all attacks except the first. Oddly enough, greater feint benefits Two weapon feint better than greater two weapon feint!)
I was also thinking that Arcane Trickster would be a good option for her, and fits the character concept of an inventor/tinkerer well. Though I'd prefer a wizard entry, if you'd let her switch her Int and Cha.
But I also would have suggested a straight-up wizard or sorcerer. I'm not sure what the draw of rogue is here.
Other options: Use Magic Device could be really helpful, and give her access to spells she can use effectively even if she can't make her attacks land and hurt. With a high Charisma, that shouldn't be too hard.
Also, I seem to recall there were a lot of feats in the Ultimate Feats book published by Mongoose for 3/3.5 that allowed you to substitute Int or Cha (or whatever) for all sorts of other abilities. If you're willing to allow 3.5 3rd party stuff, these might go a long way toward making the character viable. But it also sounds like this character was just not very well thought through. Is the player experienced, or green?
Even if not the arcane trickster route:
Use Magic Device+Wands Galore.
Skill Focus and a 4th level bump to CHA means the spell will fire on a roll of 6+ at 4th level. She won't be a top ranked combatant, but she won't be useless.
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I'll second a focus on UMD.
If she hasn't put ranks into it, let her respec some to it. The bonuses all add up, and the goal is to have a +19. This can be achieved by level 5 without a respec by spending max skill points on UMD by level 5.
favored class: +3
base cha: +3
circlet of persuasion: +3 (cost 4500, 4th level wealth is 6000)
level bonus to cha: +1 (level 4)
headband of alluring charisma +2: +1 (cost 4000, after removing circlet value 5th level wealth is 6000)
skill focus: +3 (level 5)
skill ranks: +5
total: +19
Use the remaining gold to buy a wand of magic missile, scorching ray, stonecall, or anything else without a save. If she can accept failing to activate on a 1, she can free up an additional 4000gp by not buying the headband. Other spells can also be useful, especially buffs, and she could eventually activate some pretty useful scrolls too.
Another idea is to try using guns, which touch attack within the first range increment and allow sneak attacks if she remains undetected (wand of invisibility *wink* *wink*). They can be VERY clumsy to use though, but might fit the character.
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Kirin Style is an OK suggestion if combat is long enough. Maybe if you point your player toward a Master of Many Styles, or even better, Unarmed Fighter Dip to get it, and maybe allow the houserule of swift actions getting converted to move actions to give her more it could help. Arcane Trickster is a nice choice.
I actually think Mysterious Stranger is a great idea. Or heck, even just straight continuing on with Rogue and picking up Exotic Prof. (Firearm of choice) and the ranged feats.
You can afford to have your to-hit bonuses very low if you are using a firearm because you are attacking touch-ac.
I actually think Mysterious Stranger is a great idea. Or heck, even just straight continuing on with Rogue and picking up Exotic Prof. (Firearm of choice) and the ranged feats.
You can afford to have your to-hit bonuses very low if you are using a firearm because you are attacking touch-ac.
and I think ther is a rogue talent for that...yup Firearm Training
The UMD strategy seems viable to me. A Magic Missle wand will do a little damage guaranteed which might be a little better than more damage with a (high?) miss chance. I also like the sneak attack focus.
Here's another thought though. If she has high CHA, how about the Leadership feat? She could have a nice meat shield to be a weapon for her. Perhaps not a popular solution, but an effective one.
I have a Int & Chr based Rogue; I took two levels of Lore Warden (Fighter archetype) and am now a Noble Scion with Leadership. My cohort is a pseudo-dragon ranger (guide)/rogue(scout). I use Improved Feint and Combat Expertise alot. In addition, my cohort, also a rogue, can help provide flanks so we both get sneak attack. I am considering using teamwork Feats for us both, like Feint Partner, Outflank and Precise Strike.