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Planar Binding in PFS. A few questions all in your opinion, I'd like to get an idea for how we run this "'round here".
1.) Would you rather people simply didn't do it?
2.) Diplomacy and a bound outsider. Yes/no?
2a) Starting attitude?
2b) If made friendly, or helpful "request aid" via diplomacy rules or using planar binding?
2c) If the PC succeeds in the "request aid" would you replace the planar binding check, or give the PC a bonus of 0-6 and still roll the binding check?
3) If the PC doesn't try to do anything funky, and just crushes the outsider on a cha check, do you let the PC control the outsider and step in if they do something crazy? or do you run the outsider for them?
I did bind an angel (Monavic Deva) for Feast of sigils, my GM let me use diplomacy to ask it for aid, since we think it would want to stop a runelord from rising, then someone ate a [redacted] and it was like "uuuhhh you're not my type of folks and left". I think that was reasonable, but it got me thinkin' Is this spell just bad form? Does diplomacy even work? So I thought i'd get some more opinions, and or stories.
If you have run planar binding (in pfs or not), how did it go? How did the PC handle the outsider, how did you and the PC handle the "binding process"
What are you honest thoughts on it from a GM perspective. It's certainly not required for parties to succeed, but calling a bunch of lantern archons to be personal lights/cast aid on allies could be cool :)
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Planar Binding in PFS. A few questions all in your opinion, I'd like to get an idea for how we run this "'round here".
It's an incredibly misunderstood spell, in spite of a fairly straightforward procedure described in the spell text. The key thing is to realize this spell is a binding - it's in no way voluntary - and while one is free to "make a deal", it's not necessary.
1.) Would you rather people simply didn't do it?
Who cares? It's a legal spell. If a GM "doesn't like it", he can find another game to run. Maybe one with no sleep hexes, either.
2.) Diplomacy and a bound outsider. Yes/no?
2a) Starting attitude?
2b) If made friendly, or helpful "request aid" via diplomacy rules or using planar binding?
2c) If the PC succeeds in the "request aid" would you replace the planar binding check, or give the PC a bonus of 0-6 and still roll the binding check?
Interesting question. Short answer - you can certainly always try diplomacy with a sentient being which is willing to listen to you. That said, again, this is a binding - you've forcibly yanked an outsider from its home plane and into a trap. The opposed charisma check is NOT a negotiation - it's the caster forcing his will of personality on the outsider to subvert its will into his service.
But let's say we've just dragged an outsider into our trap, and we decide to try diplomacy in lieu of completing the binding; certainly, starting attitude is going to be hostile, and even if we manage an attitude change, we haven't bound our quarry. He's a free agent, and that's dangerous.
Now, let's consider that we're going to complete our binding, but we decide to chat a bit - certainly, I can see a case for using diplomacy to possibly gain up to a +6 bonus on the opposed check (the spell text makes provisions for this). I myself am partial to casting charm monster on the trapped outsider, which conveniently has the same duration as the binding itself. Regardless, the binding still requires the opposed charisma check.
3) If the PC doesn't try to do anything funky, and just crushes the outsider on a cha check, do you let the PC control the outsider and step in if they do something crazy? or do you run the outsider for them?
That depends. If it's a simple outsider like an elemental, probably it's fine to just let the character run it; if it's something tricky (a glabrezu, say), I think it should be run as an NPC. The player can give direction (it's bound), but this is no summoned creature, and some outsiders will certainly seek to subvert unclear orders.
I did bind an angel (Monavic Deva) for Feast of sigils, my GM let me use diplomacy to ask it for aid, since we think it would want to stop a runelord from rising, then someone ate a [redacted] and it was like "uuuhhh you're not my type of folks and left". I think that was reasonable, but it got me thinkin' Is this spell just bad form? Does diplomacy even work? So I thought i'd get some more opinions, and or stories.
Well, it simply wasn't run correctly. Again, once bound, it's bound - it simply has no choice to leave. Often, GMs are thinking of planar ally, a very different cleric spell. A bound Movanic deva is enslaved, and can even be forced to do terrible things (this would be a highly evil act, obviously). Is the spell bad form? Not if the player and GM understand it. Does diplomacy work? As mentioned before, not in the way it was used here.
If you have run planar binding (in pfs or not), how did it go? How did the PC handle the outsider, how did you and the PC handle the "binding process".
Well, I've used it many times. It's actually a very fun spell for the whole table if used correctly (a bound outsider is a role-playing opportunity for the GM AND player). I've bound a huge air elemental, an erinyes, a kolyarut inevitable (loads of comedic fun for GM John Compton),an efreet, a movanic deva, and a bebelith. In the cases of the elemental and the bebelith, I ran them (they're pretty much just heavies), while the GM ran the others. I was modest in my use of the spell (well, except perhaps the efreet, which I bound for its wishes). I wanted to use it in the Siege of the Diamond City (lvl 14-15), but the GM was going to vacate the table for 10 minutes if I did (the spell casting time) and disallowed it's being pre-cast (all reasonable demands considering the timed nature of the event).
I will invoke here an important principle for users of game-changing magic (wishes, bindings and so on) - one should make an effort to practice what I call "good gaming citizenship": I concede that my sorcerer can completely overpower pretty much any challenge, especially given the general lack of time constraints in modules, but I choose not to. Just because one can, doesn't mean one should. Planar binding can be very, very easily abused (efreet); just don't do so and it's a fun, flavorful (and still powerful) spell.
What are you honest thoughts on it from a GM perspective. It's certainly not required for parties to succeed, but calling a bunch of lantern archons to be personal lights/cast aid on allies could be cool :)
A good GM takes what the players bring to the table and finds creative ways to use and/or subvert in within the rules.
I'll use John Compton as the example. He GMed my retirement arc, and before me I don't think had run into planar binding much as a PFS GM. In the first scenario, he simply had me run my bound huge air elemental like an AC. In the second, he got more involved (I bound an erinyes), and found a way to work it into the scenario storyline. In the third, I bound a kolyarut inevitable, and by this time he was just having loads of fun playing what amounts to a Terminator (often to my amused chagrin). There was no time for me to bind anything in the fourth. These servants were useful (mostly), powerful, and memorable.
One GM tip for running bindings at your table from MY (experienced player) perspective has to include this: planar binding can be dispelled. It's a magical binding, and it has a duration - ergo, susceptible to dispel magic and greater dispel magic. An enemy caster who sees an outsider (k:planes) in service to another caster (k:arcana, arcane sight, spellcraft, sense motive, etc) could certainly target planar binding with a dispel. Probably this will yield a not-too-friendly outsider standing next to a PC.
Another thing to consider: most outsiders have no way of returning home. Unless the PC is dismissing, banishing, or otherwise plane-shifting an outsider home at the end of the spell. So, when the binding expires, there's a free outsider on the loose. This certainly gives the GM something to consider (just letting a free glabrezu go off rampaging in the countryside might be an evil act?) I do think it's fair to ask how a PC plans on handling the "mess" at scenario's end!
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I was looking for GM sides. In my other discussion We (in the WI area) have come to.
No diplomacy
If binding ends it leaves.
If it's trapped, even if you reach Helpful with diplomacy, it doesn't matter for the binding. It will still leave if binding ends.
Still trying to come up with a consistent way to apply the bonuses, but I think that's impossible.
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There's really no good guideline for the bonuses, true; for PFS purposes, a straight roll is probably the best policy (I've never been given a bonus, even when I've charmed the outsider.)
"No diplomacy" is how the spell works, anyway; for PFS purposes, I think "if binding ends, it leaves" is probably a good policy, though, again, most outsiders can't return home without help.
That said - as GM - if I dispel a binding, I'm definitely claiming the outsider for myself!
If one DID want to develop a system for applying bonuses per the spell text (up to +6), one could set the following conditions for them (at +1 each):
- are the caster and outsider of a similar ethos?
- is the caster asking the outsider for a service natural to the outsider?
- is the caster offering a promise of reward?
- is the caster providing rewards up-front?
- is the caster obviously stronger than the outsider?
- other factors (offering a sacrifice, etc)
So a neutral caster binding an akhana aeon for purposes of raising a fallen companion, providing something interesting (lore, perhaps) and the promise of uncovering more, and in which it's, say, a 15th level caster executing the binding... that would add up to +5.
It's certainly easier to simply rely on a straight roll, though.