Fair enough, Quandary. I'll make sure we add a FAQ with an example on Monday, as bane does make the issue weird (a +2 enhancement bonus increase for a +1-equivalent property), can give another example with flaming as part of that FAQ, and can talk about consistency with the Bestiary.
Thanks for being willing even though a FAQ shouldn't be necessary, and thanks for clearing up how the FAQ system works. I think it'll alleviate feelings of dismissal in the future. Sorry some posters give you devs such a hard time.
Yes. That is what the rule means.
Aside from the obvious problem (Bestiary and Mythic Adventures now contradict each other) a few special abilities will work weirdly with this new ruling. Specifically the obvious Bane and Furious (both +1 cost abilities that add +2 to the enhancement bonus of the weapon in situations), but also Furyborn (+2 cost ability that adds between +1 and +5 to the weapon's enhancement bonus depending on the number of times it has hit the opponent).
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Fair enough, Quandary. I'll make sure we add a FAQ with an example on Monday, as bane does make the issue weird (a +2 enhancement bonus increase for a +1-equivalent property), can give another example with flaming as part of that FAQ, and can talk about consistency with the Bestiary.
So my emphasis on the therm Bonus was wrong. And my magus is suddenly more powerful.
C'est la vie
Sean, first off an apology for snapping at you. The initial "no reply required" reply came off to me as dismissive and I made bad assumptions.
But, as you saw just with the last posts just before and after your (extensive and clear) explanation, the issue was unclear for people outside of myself and it benefitted from being explained and now you are FAQ'ing it. My initial wording of this thread could certainly have been better, I agree.
That all having been said, would you be willing to elaborate why the development team thought it necesssary to change the general rule on overcoming DR/Epic and if this change also applies to other types of damage reductions (like DR/Alignment) or is restricted to DR/Epic?
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But, as you saw just with the last posts just before and after your (extensive and clear) explanation, the issue was unclear for people outside of myself and it benefitted from being explained and now you are FAQ'ing it. My initial wording of this thread could certainly have been better, I agree.
Remember that we're not mind-readers. We look at the question you asked, and give an answer for that. If your question were, "how does this rule interact with weapon special abilities such as bane, which grant an enhancement bonus that's different than the plus-equivalent of the special ability?," that would obviously need clarification. But the question "is this change intentional?" didn't.
That all having been said, would you be willing to elaborate why the development team thought it necesssary to change the general rule on overcoming DR/Epic and if this change also applies to other types of damage reductions (like DR/Alignment) or is restricted to DR/Epic?
It doesn't affect any other type of DR.
As for why it was changed, Jason's reasoning is: "You can't really afford a +6-equivalent weapon until about 15th-level, and until that point DR/epic is basically the same (insurmountable except for bypasses-all-DR abilities like paladin smite) defense as DR/—. Allowing a 15th-level weapon-oriented character to finally bypass DR/epic isn't that much of a big deal (as by that level, the difference between your full damage and your full damage minus 5, 10, or even 15 from DR/epic isn't very significant)."
Many thanks, Sean! That clears all questions up. :)
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I think a lot of the confusion came from the fact that this rule in Mythic adventures actually changed a previous rule, which is not something that happens very often in Pathfinder without an actual errata and re-printing of a book. A lot of confusion could have been avoided if either in the book itself, or on the website it was clearly indicated that the rule was a change. That would have eliminated a lot of discussion on if the rule as printed was correct or an error, and the conversation could have immediately moved to "Why was the change made" and "was the change a good one and will I be using it in my game".
I agree.
Fair enough, Quandary. I'll make sure we add a FAQ with an example on Monday, as bane does make the issue weird (a +2 enhancement bonus increase for a +1-equivalent property), can give another example with flaming as part of that FAQ, and can talk about consistency with the Bestiary.
Update: This'll happen tomorrow, because we need the Chris to build a Mythic Adventures FAQ category for it, and she's busy with other projects for the rest of the day.
Official Rules Response
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gl#v5748eaic9r5f
DR/Epic: How do the new rules for overcoming DR/epic (page 7) interact with weapon special abilities that have variable enhancement bonuses, such as bane and furious?
Essentially, there are now two ways to overcome DR/epic with magic weapons.
The first way is presented in the Universal Monster Rules in the Bestiary: You can use a weapon that has an actual enhancement bonus of +6 or higher. Currently the Pathfinder RPG has no weapons with a permanent +6 or higher enhancement bonus (though you can temporarily achieve a +6 or higher enhancement bonus with certain magical or class abilities).
The second way is presented in Mythic Adventures: You can use a weapon that has a total "plus-equivalent" of +6 or higher. For example, a +1 vorpal longsword and a +2 flaming frost shock keen longsword both are +6-equivalent magic weapons.
A weapon with a conditional or variable enhancement bonus, such as bane or furious, gets the best of both options. As a baseline, it include the plus-equivalences for its enhancement bonuses and special abilities; when the conditional or variable enhancement bonuses activate, it adds those to its total as well.
For example, a +3 undead-bane longsword is a +4-equivalent weapon, which on its own is not enough to overcome DR/epic. When used against an undead creature, its enhancement bonus increases by an additional +2, making it effectively a +6-equivalent weapon (+3 baseline enhancement bonus, +1-equivalent from bane, +2 conditional enhancement bonus against undead from bane) and therefore able to overcome that undead creature's DR/epic. (Another way of looking at it is when bane is active, you add its conditional +2 enhancement bonus to the weapon's normal +4-equivalent bonus, temporarily giving you a +6-equivalent weapon).
Wow, was not expecting that last part. A +4 equivalent weapon (+3 furious or bane) can defeat epic regularly, and a +3 equivalent weapon (+1 Furyborn) seems to be able to as well (after hitting the enemy 3 times to make Furyborn up to +3 though in that case). Thanks for the ruling design team, I think I'll be house ruling but I'm glad y'all took the time to clarify exactly how this worked.
I actually think this is a pretty elegant way to do it. It means DR/epic is just a stronger form of DR/magic, and bypassing it is entirely unrelated to the ability of high +X weapons to bypass material & alignment DR.
I don't really have an objection to bane double-dipping either, becuase the weapon is designed for fighting that specific type of monster. It just means it gets slightly more of a boost than before (Only a +3 bane weapon is required to bypass DR/epic, instead of the +4 bane that would have been required before - no other change).
I'm a bit hesitant about furious, since a barbarian raging is much more common than attacking the type of monster your weapon is the bane of. But given it's only a +1 equivalent difference, I'm not going to sweat it.
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i don't like it. +6 seems too easy to get to.
its not 15th level. its now around 11th level. a magus with a +3 weapon that uses his arcane pool at 11th can make his weapon overcome DR/epic. a barbarian with a +1 bane, furious weapon who gets an 8th level wizard to cast greater magic weapon can overcome DR/epic against his bane enemy. a barbarian 3/inquisitor 5 can do it with a wizard in the group.
so what was about 15th level , estimate by a designer, results in cases where it can be done by 8th level - 11th level. with more changes ahead and new rules / classes / spells that'll come out, more options may open up.
DR/epic is no longer an appropriate name for it. because its not Epic if an 8th level character can do it. Maybe if it had been a new DR like DR/mythic, maybe. That would have left creatures from the bestiaries with CR 20 and DR/epic still hard to touch, but DR/mythic creatures could be hit earlier on in a character's career by reaching that +6 enhancement/enchantment total.
if temporary enhancement bonuses to weapons , from spells or arcane pool and the like, didn't count towards the final + of the weapon, that would be a little different.
even at 15th level before, the chance that you had sunk all of your money into your weapon was slim. its what made DR/epic nontrivial.
hell, a +1 furious weapon makes cold iron/silver trivial for barbarians. it becomes a +3 weapon and overcomes those DRs.
Thanks for the update, Sean and the rest of the rules team.
I still kinda have my issues with DR becoming much less useful at the high-end tier, but those are neither here or there for this thread and certainly not a FAQ issue, but rather a general design problem of the game. Something to look forward to discuss in the ramp-up to Pathfinder second edition in a few years.
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So a inquisitor with a +3 equivalent weapon can routinely bypass epic DR using his bane ability (gained ath 5th level).
If he is willing to sink most of his WBL in the weapon he can easily do that at 7th level.
In a party with a crafter he can do that at 5th level.
A magus can increase a weapon ability by 2 point at 6th level, 3 at 9th. By 9th level it is almost assured he will be capable to bypass DR/epic.
On the other hand classes that aren't capable of self enhancing their weapon will be left in the dust until they can spend 72.000 gp in a weapon (greater magic weapon don't do anything useful, Seraphimpunk, it don't count against the weapon enhancement, read the spell).
By buying a bane weapon they would be capable to bypass the epic DR of a single kind of enemy for the "paltry" sum of 32.000 gp. And will be left in the dust if they have the "wrong" bane weapon.
It seem way too easy for some classes and it penalize classes that rely on their strength of arms, like the fighter.
addendum: yes, thanks for the FAQ and clarifying things SKR.
its the news i'm unhappy with, not the team and your continued efforts.
I agree with that.
FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gl#v5748eaic9r5f
DR/Epic: How do the new rules for overcoming DR/epic (page 7) interact with weapon special abilities that have variable enhancement bonuses, such as bane and furious?
Essentially, there are now two ways to overcome DR/epic with magic weapons.The first way is presented in the Universal Monster Rules in the Bestiary: You can use a weapon that has an actual enhancement bonus of +6 or higher. Currently the Pathfinder RPG has no weapons with a permanent +6 or higher enhancement bonus (though you can temporarily achieve a +6 or higher enhancement bonus with certain magical or class abilities).
The second way is presented in Mythic Adventures: You can use a weapon that has a total "plus-equivalent" of +6 or higher. For example, a +1 vorpal longsword and a +2 flaming frost shock keen longsword both are +6-equivalent magic weapons.
A weapon with a conditional or variable enhancement bonus, such as bane or furious, gets the best of both options. As a baseline, it include the plus-equivalences for its enhancement bonuses and special abilities; when the conditional or variable enhancement bonuses activate, it adds those to its total as well.
For example, a +3 undead-bane longsword is a +4-equivalent weapon, which on its own is not enough to overcome DR/epic. When used against an undead creature, its enhancement bonus increases by an additional +2, making it effectively a +6-equivalent weapon (+3 baseline enhancement bonus, +1-equivalent from bane, +2 conditional enhancement bonus against undead from bane) and therefore able to overcome that undead creature's DR/epic. (Another way of looking at it is when bane is active, you add its conditional +2 enhancement bonus to the weapon's normal +4-equivalent bonus, temporarily giving you a +6-equivalent weapon).
I believe that this design decision is a terrible one. You should have just let us have our epic weapons instead of nerfing DR/Epic so that any moron can bypass it with low level weapons.
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I have recently run the Wrath of the Righteous and I have found that making DR/epic bypassable by +6 raw weapons (not +6 equivalent) made the encounters last 1-2 rounds longer (instead of lasting 1-2 rounds) and made the fights more memorable.
Making the DR/epic bypassable by +6 equiv. weapons would have made a huge different in that game: instead of only the fighter bypassing the DR, the entire melee-oriented part of the party (a brawler, druid, and fighter) would be bypassing the DR. I did not include the wizard because wizards ignore DR anyway.