Reality is under no obligation to be nice, any more than it's under an obligation to be polite.
And it's really not a nice thing to imply that all third party products are "beta".
You might have missed this, under the text entry box for every post you make:
The most important rule: Don't be a jerk. We want our messageboards to be a fun and friendly place.
Reality might not, but you do have an obligation to follow the messageboard rules.
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3PP are made by fans, not dedicated developers.
Well, in the case of the big 3PP companies like Kobold Press, Super Genius Games ... heck, now we can add Monte Cook Games, they are very much run be seasoned industry professionals that have worked for Wizards and now do (or have done) top quality work for Paizo -and in most cases are close friends with the Paizo folks. To insinuate that these folks are not dedicated developers is uniformed and pretty insulting
Please tell me how this is balanced
And it's really not a nice thing to imply that all third party products are "beta".Reality is under no obligation to be nice, any more than it's under an obligation to be polite.
While I acknowledge that some 3PP products are complete and well-made, an uncomfortably large number of them are effectively beta versions.
Examples? If by "third party product" you are referring to, say, a thread posted on the homebrew forum, then yes, I would agree that a lot of that is not polished. But of the main 3rd party publishers (FGG, DSP, Kobold Press, Rite), I haven't seen any "effectively beta versions".
I will say that a couple publishers have a tendency to do stuff like that...(I'm looking at you, Adamant Entertainment's version of the Warlock). But the good publishers? Never put out anything less polished than, say, the Summoner (which, like it or not, is really effectively beta). Or WotC's Truenamer.
No one said everything was balanced. At all. Some turn out downright awful. Give me at least close to half of all 3pp things, and show me they are unbalanced. then you can say most are that way.
If you don't have the time for that, then we don't have the time for your one-example argument.
I'm under no obligation to have my game table pass your seal of approval. Since you are so fired up about what happens at my game table, why don't you prove that half the 3PP content is balanced?
No one said everything was balanced. At all. Some turn out downright awful. Give me at least close to half of all 3pp things, and show me they are unbalanced. then you can say most are that way.
If you don't have the time for that, then we don't have the time for your one-example argument.
Because, all I'm saying Is this-
I don't care wether or not it's balanced, just that you show proof for your own argument.I don't care what happens at your table.
At all, really.
I just want arguments to be based on majority and fact rather then minority and opinion. I'm trying to be impartial- if someone's said that most third party is balanced, and tired to "prove" thier point with one example, I'd request the same thing.
Impartiality.
*wonders if they know that a lot of the 3pp also freelance for paizo*A good writer and a good editor generally make a good product.
A mediocre writer and a good editor generally make a good product.
A good writer and a mediocre editor generally make a mediocre or worse product.
The ones who freelance for Paizo tend to send their best stuff there, where one of the best editorial teams in the biz cleans it up. The thing to ask yourself about their 3PP stuff is : why didn't they sell it to Paizo?
I submit that far too often, the answer is "because Paizo wouldn't buy it."
Wow. You do know that Paizo doesn't even work on that system right? They commission stuff, and don't have a open call for products. They decide in house what they produce, than find the appropriate people to write it, either in-house or to outside parties
P.S. You do realize that Paizo started as a third party right? and some of the 3rd party publishers have been working with Paizo from the very beginning (see Wolfgang Baur from Kobold Quarterly). And that they actually recruit there talent from 3rd party publishers. See Adam Daigle
While I acknowledge that some 3PP products are complete and well-made, an uncomfortably large number of them are effectively beta versions.[citation needed]
I'm not going to single out any specific products or publishers in this thread. That would be unnecessarily inflammatory and "not-nice" of me.
Instead, I'll turn it around. I'm unfamiliar with Dreamscarred Press, so I won't comment on that one. I am familiar with most of the other publishers mentioned so far on this forum, and few if any of them have impressed me favorably in terms of the quality of their work. I will also acknowledge that I've not read every page of every document put out by, for example, Raging Swan, because I don't have the time to do that.
But if you want to single out a publisher as doing particularly stellar work -- go ahead. Feel free even to name a specific product that will blow my socks off. Depending upon how much free time I have, I may pick it up and look at it. "Hit me with your best shot // Fire away," as Ms. Benatar so memorably put it.
But so far, with the single exception of the Way of the Wicked adventure path, literally nothing that has been (specifically) recommended to me as a 3PP Pathfinder product has been worthy of note or of incorporation into my game.
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But if you want to single out a publisher as doing particularly stellar work -- go ahead. Feel free even to name a specific product that will blow my socks off. Depending upon how much free time I have, I may pick it up and look at it. "Hit me with your best shot // Fire away," as Ms. Benatar so memorably put it.Razor Coast.
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So far Paizo's options have provided more than enough options for our group. I have toured the 3PP stuff and have not seen anything that I wanted to play.
But I remain open to new ideas. Has there been a thread posted on favorite 3PP characters? Might be interesting and could open some new possibilities.
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Because, all I'm saying Is this-
I don't care wether or not it's balanced, just that you show proof for your own argument.My argument that I don't have time to dig through all that crap to find the good stuff when the only thing you'll take as evidence is for me to dig through all that crap? No.
Then don't argue that everything is bad.
In fact, if you don't have time for that, why are you here?You argue that you don't have time to dig through that, witch is understandable. Just use the core rules. I'm not chastising you for that.
Just don't accuse third party publishers of being bad without having time to look through them all either.
But if you want to single out a publisher as doing particularly stellar work -- go ahead. Feel free even to name a specific product that will blow my socks off. Depending upon how much free time I have, I may pick it up and look at it. "Hit me with your best shot // Fire away," as Ms. Benatar so memorably put it.Razor Coast.
Fair enough. I'll check them out if/when I get a chance.
But this actually sort-of proves my point. Midgard Campaign Setting lost the 2013 "Best Setting" Award in favor of Magnimar, which was published by ... (wait for it) ... Paizo.
But if you want to single out a publisher as doing particularly stellar work -- go ahead. Feel free even to name a specific product that will blow my socks off. Depending upon how much free time I have, I may pick it up and look at it. "Hit me with your best shot // Fire away," as Ms. Benatar so memorably put it.Razor Coast.Fair enough. I'll check them out if/when I get a chance.
But this actually sort-of proves my point. Midgard Campaign Setting lost the 2013 "Best Setting" Award in favor of Magnimar, which was published by ... (wait for it) ... Paizo.
How does it prove your point? Does it prove something more mainstream has more sway in the world, or does it prove that 3PP sucks because its not the absolute best because it didn't win an award in 2013?
OP's topic question
i only allow 1 3pp in my game at a time currently i allow Kobalt because i realy like there magazines
but over all i make the assumption that a 3pp only looks at there product and Paizo's not every other 3pp such could lead to game braking combos and nonsense. and i don't like tell players they can not do something with there PC so i set up parameters that are easy to follow.
Then don't argue that everything is bad.
Don't jump into the middle of a discussion you're clueless about.
I have repeatedly said that good 3PP exists.
Then what are you even arguing about?
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But this actually sort-of proves my point. Midgard Campaign Setting lost the 2013 "Best Setting" Award in favor of Magnimar, which was published by ... (wait for it) ... Paizo.
All that proves is that more people took the time to submit a vote for Paizo than they did for Kobold.
How does it prove your point? Does it prove something more mainstream has more sway in the world, or does it prove that 3PP sucks because its not the absolute best because it didn't win an award in 2013?
Well, if you're trying to argue that 3PP products are just as good as Paizo's, then pointing at a 3PP product that lost to Paizo in head-to-head competition isn't a good way to do it.
But this actually sort-of proves my point. Midgard Campaign Setting lost the 2013 "Best Setting" Award in favor of Magnimar, which was published by ... (wait for it) ... Paizo.All that proves is that more people took the time to submit a vote for Paizo than they did for Kobold.
Right. And the only reason that Usain Bolt won all those gold medals is because he crossed the finish line first, not because he was the faster runner or anything.
I'm defending myself against others who think I have BADWRONGFUN because my table hasn't used 3PP.Then what are you even arguing about?
Then don't argue that everything is bad.
Don't jump into the middle of a discussion you're clueless about.
I have repeatedly said that good 3PP exists.
The premise of wrong fun is a nonexistent thing. So long as your fun doesn't cause problems for others in a large way, there is no wrong fun.
Whomever was making that argument was simply trying to force an opinion on you.Opinions are invalid arguments.
But this actually sort-of proves my point. Midgard Campaign Setting lost the 2013 "Best Setting" Award in favor of Magnimar, which was published by ... (wait for it) ... Paizo.All that proves is that more people took the time to submit a vote for Paizo than they did for Kobold.Right. And the only reason that Usain Bolt won all those gold medals is because he crossed the finish line first, not because he was the faster runner or anything.
Or, perhaps, just maybe, enjoyment is subjective, and thus, the "best" campaign setting isn't always the best for every person.
Just a thought.|
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But this actually sort-of proves my point. Midgard Campaign Setting lost the 2013 "Best Setting" Award in favor of Magnimar, which was published by ... (wait for it) ... Paizo.All that proves is that more people took the time to submit a vote for Paizo than they did for Kobold.Right. And the only reason that Usain Bolt won all those gold medals is because he crossed the finish line first, not because he was the faster runner or anything.
You are aware of the differences between a contest with objective standards and one with subjective standards, right?
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But this actually sort-of proves my point. Midgard Campaign Setting lost the 2013 "Best Setting" Award in favor of Magnimar, which was published by ... (wait for it) ... Paizo.All that proves is that more people took the time to submit a vote for Paizo than they did for Kobold.Right. And the only reason that Usain Bolt won all those gold medals is because he crossed the finish line first, not because he was the faster runner or anything.
. And would you discount or insult the guy that crossed a second after Bolt as being a no talent hack or would you aknowlege that the second place runner is also clearly a fantastic runner worthy if acolades?
The premise of wrong fun is a nonexistent thing. So long as your fun doesn't cause problems for others in a large way, there is no wrong fun.
Whomever was making that argument was simply trying to force an opinion on you.I know that. Not everyone on this board does.
I think brocolli tastes nasty. That's my opinion. I neeed no better argument not to eat it. Same thing goes for a lot of 3PP content.Opinions are invalid arguments.
That isn't an argument.
It is a fact that you do not want to eat broccoli.Second, that was not the intention of my wording.
When i say options are invalid arguments, i men that they do not prove a point about what another should do.
My apologies.
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It seems that if you want to improve 3PP sells, then you need good independent reviewers who can, also, market the good stuff.
I'm not sure that can happen, though, because there is a vocal segment of gamers who prefer content that is broken to all hell and back.
Endzeitgeist is a good independent reviewer of 3PPs. he is very critical and dissects different types of books. Definitely read his reviews and blog posts about items before you buy them.
Well, if you're trying to argue that 3PP products are just as good as Paizo's, then pointing at a 3PP product that lost to Paizo in head-to-head competition isn't a good way to do it.
How does it prove your point? Does it prove something more mainstream has more sway in the world, or does it prove that 3PP sucks because its not the absolute best because it didn't win an award in 2013?
Getting nominated at all is a pretty big honor. Taking your argument and applying it to other things would mean that of all the movies nominated for an oscar, only the one that wins is any good; the rest are absolutely horrible.
I mean not that long ago WoTC was taking home the ennies and Paizo was losing. Does that mean they were automatically crap just because they were nominated but didn't win?
You are aware of the differences between a contest with objective standards and one with subjective standards, right?
I'm well aware of them, yes. On the other hand, the ENnie awards are a well-respected, independent, third-party assessment of the quality of various gaming products. If you can show me a similar assessment that suggests that MCS is better than Magnimar, feel free.
Otherwise, the ENnies seem to be the best evidence available to anyone, and they seem to suggest that Paizo turns out a better product. (The fact that Paizo won more ENnies overall doesn't bode well for Kobold either.) Which was basically my point -- according to the best evidence we seem to have, Paizo has the best product line overall of any publisher out there right now, which means that 3PP have a very high hurdle to clear. And none of them seem to be able to be able to clear that hurdle.
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I'm well aware of them, yes. On the other hand, the ENnie awards are a well-respected, independent, third-party assessment of the quality of various gaming products. If you can show me a similar assessment that suggests that MCS is better than Magnimar, feel free.
Otherwise, the ENnies seem to be the best evidence available to anyone, and they seem to suggest that Paizo turns out a better product. (The fact that Paizo won more ENnies overall doesn't bode well for Kobold either.) Which was basically my point -- according to the best evidence we seem to have, Paizo has the best product line overall of any publisher out there right now, which means that 3PP have a very high hurdle to clear. And none of them seem to be able to be able to clear that hurdle.
Now where in your logic do you equate 'not able to beat Paizo' to 'not worthy of anyone's time'?
. And would you discount or insult the guy that crossed a second after Bolt as being a no talent hack or would you aknowlege that the second place runner is also clearly a fantastic runner worthy if acolades?
Right. And the only reason that Usain Bolt won all those gold medals is because he crossed the finish line first, not because he was the faster runner or anything.
Not at all. Being an Olympic silver medalist is huge accomplishment, much better than I could do myself.
But I'm also not going to pretend to myself (or to him) that he's as good as the gold medalist. If running speed is an issue, and given a choice if either he or Mr. Bolt are available, I'd pick the actual winner.
Now where in your logic do you equate 'not able to beat Paizo' to 'not worthy of anyone's time'?I'm well aware of them, yes. On the other hand, the ENnie awards are a well-respected, independent, third-party assessment of the quality of various gaming products. If you can show me a similar assessment that suggests that MCS is better than Magnimar, feel free.
Otherwise, the ENnies seem to be the best evidence available to anyone, and they seem to suggest that Paizo turns out a better product. (The fact that Paizo won more ENnies overall doesn't bode well for Kobold either.) Which was basically my point -- according to the best evidence we seem to have, Paizo has the best product line overall of any publisher out there right now, which means that 3PP have a very high hurdle to clear. And none of them seem to be able to be able to clear that hurdle.
Time is limited. I start with the top products I'm aware of and work my way down. So far, no one's shown me any reason for Kobold's stuff to displace Paizo's on the list of gaming-products-to-read.
Time is limited. I start with the top products I'm aware of and work my way down. So far, no one's shown me any reason for Kobold's stuff to displace Paizo's on the list of gaming-products-to-read.Again, where does this link from 'I won't bother looking at this stuff' to 'and neither should you'?
Funny, s/he never made that link. Or even implied you shouldn't.
S/he stated opinions, but never actually said you should act on them.Funny how this is a near continuous thing on the Internet, that even i am often guilty of.