Power attack yes, STR bonus no.
Not to detract from the original topic, can you actually use Flurry of Blows with a two-handed weapon or a weapon wielded in two-hands? FoB works similar to two weapon fighting, which we know you can't use two weapon fighting with two-handed weapons.
Edit: I also don't think it would work because:
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.
So a monk wouldn't even get 1.5x strength from wielding a two handed weapon or a one-handed weapon with two hands. He would only get 1x strength.
Then there's is this FAQ:
Armor Spikes: Can I use two-weapon fighting to make an "off-hand" attack with my armor spikes in the same round I use a two-handed weapon?
No.
Likewise, you couldn't use an armored gauntlet to do so, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.—Pathfinder Design Team, 07/25/13
Not to detract from the original topic, can you actually use Flurry of Blows with a two-handed weapon or a weapon wielded in two-hands? FoB works similar to two weapon fighting, which we know you can't use two weapon fighting with two-handed weapons.
Edit: I also don't think it would work because:
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with f lurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.So a monk wouldn't even get 1.5x strength from wielding a two handed weapon or a one-handed weapon with two hands. He would only get 1x strength.
Yeah, but that's not a requirement.
This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
2H weapon, 1H weapon in 2 hands, or natural attack with 1.5x Str. Not "weapon that gets 1.5x Str".
Temple sword fits all the requirements. Two-Handed flurry, 1x STR bonus, -1 +3 power attack.
It's a contradiction within the rules though, because you're essentially getting to use a two-handed weapon as both your "main hand" and "off hand" attack with two-weapon fighting.
Dragon style and Dragon ferocity. Turn your unarmed attacks into two-handed attacks (essentially). The wording makes it so the Power attack turns into a +3 per to-hit lost. Power attacks looks at the str mod on the attack to determine the bonus damage. Dragon ferocity mods your unarmed attack by an additional .5. This only works if you consider a monk strike a natural attack like most spells do.
It's a contradiction within the rules though, because you're essentially getting to use a two-handed weapon as both your "main hand" and "off hand" attack with two-weapon fighting.
No, it's not. Flurry is very specifically an exception to the "No 2H + TWFing" rule.
Dragon style and Dragon ferocity. Turn your unarmed attacks into two-handed attacks (essentially). The wording makes it so the Power attack turns into a +3 per to-hit lost. Power attacks looks at the str mod on the attack to determine the bonus damage. Dragon ferocity mods your unarmed attack by an additional .5. This only works if you consider a monk strike a natural attack like most spells do.
Most spells consider them natural attacks because they are.
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Power Attack is an effect that enhances natural weapons (and manufactured ones). Dragon Style/Ferocity makes your unarmed strikes deal 1.5x damage.
You are now using a natural attack that deals 1.5x Str damage.
Ergo, you get the 1.5x Power Attack benefit.
There's no contradiction. Power Attack gets 1.5x benefit on 2H weapons and 1H weapons in 2 hands. The Temple Sword is this.
It also gives 1.5x benefit to natural attacks with 1.5x Str, which is the Dragon Style/Ferocity unarmed strike combo.
@Rynjin
Did we just agree on something?
It's a contradiction within the rules though, because you're essentially getting to use a two-handed weapon as both your "main hand" and "off hand" attack with two-weapon fighting.No, it's not. Flurry is very specifically an exception to the "No 2H + TWFing" rule.
Are we sure about this since the most recent FAQ? It changed things significantly on how two handed weapons and two weapon fighting interact.
FAQ it?
Yeah, during the whole thread discussing it SKR (as well as Jason Buhlman and if I remember Sean Radney-Mcfarland) said that the Monk was intended to be an exception.
@Marthkus: I believe so. XD
Yeah, during the whole thread discussing it SKR (as well as Jason Buhlman and if I remember Sean Radney-Mcfarland) said that the Monk was intended to be an exception.
Linky? Please?
I don't have a problem with allowing it, it just doesn't appear to be consistent with the other rulings to me. It certainly wont be overpowered to allow monks to do this (but I don't think rules should be based on whether or not something is overpowered (alone) but whether or not it is consistent), but it just doesn't make sense to me with my current understanding of the rules.
Yeah, during the whole thread discussing it SKR (as well as Jason Buhlman and if I remember Sean Radney-Mcfarland) said that the Monk was intended to be an exception.Linky? Please?
I don't have a problem with allowing it, it just doesn't appear to be consistent with the other rulings to me. It certainly wont be overpowered to allow monks to do this (but I don't think rules should be based on whether or not something is overpowered (alone) but whether or not it is consistent), but it just doesn't make sense to me with my current understanding of the rules.
It's in this thread, somewhere after this post.
As well, remember the previous FAQ. Flurry of Blows specifically allows you to TWF with one weapon (basically, since it's not really TWFing, it just works as it).
This is an exception to the general rule, not an inconsistency.
Yeah, during the whole thread discussing it SKR (as well as Jason Buhlman and if I remember Sean Radney-Mcfarland) said that the Monk was intended to be an exception.Linky? Please?
I don't have a problem with allowing it, it just doesn't appear to be consistent with the other rulings to me. It certainly wont be overpowered to allow monks to do this (but I don't think rules should be based on whether or not something is overpowered (alone) but whether or not it is consistent), but it just doesn't make sense to me with my current understanding of the rules.
It's in this thread, somewhere after this post.
As well, remember the previous FAQ. Flurry of Blows specifically allows you to TWF with one weapon (basically, since it's not really TWFing, it just works as it).
This is an exception to the general rule, not an inconsistency.
Thats fine if it is, it's just not clear or apparent (to me) and I'd like to understand. I search through that thread, but its so damn long that search for "flurry of blow two handed" didn't give me anything relevant to this discussion that would imply an exception. Could you help to locate it when you have time? I understand that thread is cumbersome to say the least, and if it weren't for the FAQ that thread resulted it this wouldn't really be questionable at all to me.
Dragon style and Dragon ferocity. Turn your unarmed attacks into two-handed attacks (essentially). The wording makes it so the Power attack turns into a +3 per to-hit lost. Power attacks looks at the str mod on the attack to determine the bonus damage. Dragon ferocity mods your unarmed attack by an additional .5. This only works if you consider a monk strike a natural attack like most spells do.
It cleary works on the first attack with Dragon Style, it probably doesn't work on later attacks as Ferocity only adds an additional .5 STR damage to unarmed attacks rather than making later attacks do 1.5 STR damage, which is an important distinction.
The first attack does 2X str damage.
Just as a comparison 1d8(temple sword)+15(power attack) versus 2d10(20th level unarmed damage)+10(power attack).
So then the difference would be 19.5 avg damage versus 21 average damage. So, the math doesn't really work out for this circumstance being overpowered (compared to the other possibilities the monk can perform).
(I only did this for a comparison for myself, but thought I would share for others).
Edit: And apparently if you add dragon style which would give you 1.5 strength on your unarmed strikes (which count as natural attacks) and because power attack says that natural attacks with 1.5 strength also receive +3 damage for every -1 attack then you could really have 2d10+15+1.5*strength versus 1d8+15+1*strength (since you can't get 1.5 strength when wielding weapons two handed with flurry of blows).
Correct?
The first attack does 1.5x str damage + an additional .5x str damage from DF. The other attacks do 1x str damage + an additional .5x str damage from DF.
Dragon Ferocity is bonus damage, as opposed to dragon style which explicitly changes the damage from the first strike you land to 1.5x STR.
The first attack does 1.5x str damage + an additional .5x str damage from DF. The other attacks do 1x str damage + an additional .5x str damage from DF.
Dragon Ferocity is bonus damage, as opposed to dragon style which explicitly changes the damage from the first strike you land to 1.5x STR.
Dragon Ferocity makes attacks modified by 1.5 str mod.
I fail to see how addition being how this is done changes the end modifier.
The first attack does 1.5x str damage + an additional .5x str damage from DF. The other attacks do 1x str damage + an additional .5x str damage from DF.
Dragon Ferocity is bonus damage, as opposed to dragon style which explicitly changes the damage from the first strike you land to 1.5x STR.
Dragon Ferocity makes attacks modified by 1.5 str mod.
I fail to see how addition being how this is done changes the end modifier.
Because it's explicitly called out as bonus damage.
Well the thing is that dragon ferocity gives all of your unarmed attacks a .5 DAMAGE BONUS. Like the Kensai that can get a Damage bonus equal to his intelligence mod which doesn't equal a +3 from power attack. Dragon style. Allows you ADD 1.5x your strength to your damage roll, which makes it work with power attack. But that's just how I interpret it. And don't get me wrong I'd love it if it worked like that because I love unarmed characters and it'd be great if they were even better.
Edit: Got Ninja'd
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I'm not good enough with computers to provide a link, but I was involved in that TWF thread all the way.
The post referring to it re: dev comments stemmed from SKR's assertion that the game had an unwritten rule (I know, right!) which gave a 'hard cap' of 1.5 x Str bonus to damage, whether that was from using two hands on a single weapon or from the x1 from your 'primary' and x0.5 from your 'off hand' attacks in TWF.
When it was pointed out that monks, when flurrying, got x1 twice, that adds up to x2. Not much of a 'hard cap'! Other instances of the 'hard cap' being rather soft were cited.
The response? Er...monks are different.
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A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.
The very ability itself shows that a 2HW is useable in a Flurry, but the Str bonus to damage is x1, not x1.5.
That does not restrict how Power Attack works in any way. So yes, you get a ratio of 3:1 on Power Attack with a 2HW, and can use the same weapon in all of your Flurry attacks.
Although some people may be worried that now monks are too powerful and will dominate the world and no-one will want to play any other class, comfort yourselves by realising that Wizards can still alter the very fabric of creation and still only need a single stat.
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.The very ability itself shows that a 2HW is useable in a Flurry, but the Str bonus to damage is x1, not x1.5.
That does not restrict how Power Attack works in any way. So yes, you get a ratio of 3:1 on Power Attack with a 2HW, and can use the same weapon in all of your Flurry attacks.
Although some people may be worried that now monks are too powerful and will dominate the world and no-one will want to play any other class, comfort yourselves by realising that Wizards can still alter the very fabric of creation and still only need a single stat.
I think it's a good thing for the monk to get the 3:1 power attack, because there still going to have trouble hitting with it, and their super MAD stats aren't going to help it any. Plus, if you look at my previous post I did some math (possibly inaccurate) that showed based on average damage at level 20 it wasn't better than using fists even if you only got 2:1 with your fist. With the Dragon Style feats power attacking with unarmed strikes is better than power attacking with a 2 handed weapon while flurrying because of 3:1 on natural attacks that deal 1.5 strength damage. Which is clear as day in the rules. Where this might make more of a difference is at low-mid levels where the monks unarmed strike damage die isn't as big to make up the static difference from power attacking at 3:1 vs 2:1.
Also, I did notice in the rules for FoB where it mentioned 2handed weapons, but then it gives the exception about only giving 1x strength, which made me wonder about should it really be allowed in the first place? Should power attacking in this way be an exception? I think it is clear to me now how it works by RAW, though I disagree with the way it works. But c'est la vie.
I'm also not worried about the monk encroaching on the wizard, I'm more worried about the monk encroaching on the barbarian and ranger. Though I think it needs more than being able to flurry power attack at 3:1 to actually be a threat to those classes.
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It's a contradiction within the rules though, because you're essentially getting to use a two-handed weapon as both your "main hand" and "off hand" attack with two-weapon fighting.
It is a class ability that grants a specific exception to a general rule.
The reasons for a monk to use a two-handed weapon instead of fists at lower level are huge ones.
Wealth. It is far cheaper to enchant a single weapon than to purchase an Amulet of Mighty Fists
DR: special materials and a higher enhancement bonus at any given level
Critical Range: an armed monk doubles or triples his crit range, which can lead to a noticeable increase in DPR.
You cannot just look at impact at level 20, where very few people play the game. You have to look at the impact across all levels.