Tried searching this, but didn't find anything.
A human oracle has Racial Heritage (Half-Elf), or the oracle is just a Half-elf.
The oracle picks up Eldritch Heritage (Arcane).
At level 11, the oracle casts Paragon Surge, and uses the free feat for Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane), to get access to any one Sorcerer/Wizard of a level he can cast, for a minute/Caster Level.
He can't cast "Create Dimension" or any other spell that has an outrageously long casting time, but he can cast Permanency, and any spell needed for Permanency. He can actually do quite a bit.
I'd also say that you can't have two Paragon Surges going on at the same time, both with different spells.
But is there any ruling to this? Is this legal?
It doesn't work, because knowing a Sorc spell doesn't let you cast Sorc spells with Oracle slots.
If he dips in a Sorc level he also knows Sorc spells, but can't cast them with Oracle slots, the Feat isn't doing anything else different,
the Feat is not adding it to your spell list or doing anything else that would allow you to use non-Sorc slots to cast it.
It is equally useful for a Fighter to do that as an Oracle, i.e. NOT useful.
An Oracle would be better off using Paragon Surge for Expanded Arcana of Cleric/Oracle spells.
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It should work, since the Sorcerer spell is added to your list of spells known and regardless of how the spell got there, it's there for you to cast with your Oracle slots.
I disagree... by this logic, sorcerer/oracle could use sorcerer spell slots to cast cure light wounds and oracle spell slots to cast magic missile, as long as they are both 'spells known'.
Common sense should tell you that spells known is specific to a class.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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FiddlersGreen,
They are nothing alike. The sorcerer's spell list is seperate to the Oracles. Nothing in the multiclass says "At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known."
Let's give an example.
The oracle in question, at 11th level, has nine first level spells(not including cure/inflict or mystery spells)
Bane, Shield of Faith, Divine Power, Protection from Evil, Infernal Healing, Bless, Weapons Against Evil, Sun Metal, and Endure Elements.
He casts Paragon Surge(Improved Eldritch heritage[Arcane]) and adds Magic Missile to his list of first level oracle spells known,so it looks like this.
Bane, Shield of Faith, Divine Power, Protection from Evil, Infernal Healing, Bless, Weapons Against Evil, Sun Metal, Endure Elements, and Magic Missile.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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They are nothing alike. The sorcerer's spell list is seperate to the Oracles. Nothing in the multiclass says "At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known."Answer me this. If an Oracle, at level 11, took the feat Improved Eldritch Heritage to gain the New Arcana bloodline power and decided to add Dimension Door to their list of spells known would you have a problem with it?
Why would I?
Andreww, you mentioned in your 2012 post that you referenced above "Enchantment DC Boosting Kitsune Sorcerers." How will this affect them?
I would love to know the build to be able to take Paragon Surge as a Kitsune Sorcerer, as that is my next character. Please spell it out for me if you don't mind. Thanks!
Without metamagic, Paragon Surge is one minutes/level. That's going to limit your choices.
Once you start applying metamagic to Paragon Surge you're going to be driving the spell level up rapidly. Say, you want to cast Paragon Surge as a Swift Action: You'll need the Quicken feat and now it's spell level 7. Of course you can do other tricks to lower that, but again you'll be investing bank/Feats/a trait you could be using for other things.
Choices. You decided to be Half Elf, or Human/Aasimar and burned a Feat... And - you wait 11 levels for the payoff.
The only issue I have with Paragon Surge and Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) is time. Make sure that you are prepared at the table with your potential options and are ready to execute one of them. No one wants to wait for you to pour through every spell for the correct response to the situation at hand.
You aren't really waiting 11 levels for a pay-off. The only actual "investment" you really need to make is in Skill Focus and Heritage if Human/Aasimar. The initial Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) feat is extremely practical as a familiar can give you +4 initiative that stacks with Improved Initiative and allows an oracle access to the Improved Familiar feat, which has several potent options all on its own.
Paragon Surge likewise has a number of benefits immediately gained upon obtaining it ranging from getting access to any spell off the Cleric/Oracle list with Expanded Arcana, or even picking up a temporary but very relevant feat (Increase a particular save, augment a particular skill, etc.).
The use of Paragon Surge to pick up Improved Eldritch Heritage for access to the Wizard/Sorcerer list at level 11, is really just added gravy on an already delicious use of feats and a spell.
I don't think improved eldritch heritage (arcane) works as you think it does.
It would add spells to your *character's* spells known.
Unless you have a race with racial spellcasting and slots of the appropriate level it would not help you, since it does not add it to your *class* spells known when getting it through the heritage feat chain.
Yeah, its perfectly legal.
Not to mention that you are investing two feats in for this combo to work. Skill Focus (Knowledge [arcana]) and Eldritch Heritage. Oracles don't get many feats, so if you want to use this combo to be a casting savant, more power to you!
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Race: Half-Elf
Class: Oracle
Feats: Skill Focus (any one knowledge) + Eldritch Heritage
3rd level Spell Slot + Spell Known: Paragon Surge
You are giving up a lot for the ability to be versatile at level 11. Then again, those things are not entirely wasteful. So, do you want to play an Half-Elf Oracle just to get a neat trick at level 11?
I guess to be fair, Half-Elves get Skill Focus for free at 1st level. It is forcing you to choose how you invest the feat, but as long as you pick one of the Big Six Knowledges, you'll do alright.
Considering that the Human Oracle's trick is to have oodles of spells and the Elven / Aasimar's trick is to become ridiculously good with a specific revelation, I still don't think this is gamebreaking. After all, one of the coolest tricks that I've personally seen is to pump up the Life Oracle's Channel Positive Energy beyond what you could normally get as a Cleric of the same level. And similar crazy shenanigans.
Alexander, not to derail the thread, but please explain about the Oracle of Life as I would like to know exactly what you did.
The favored class bonus adds +1/2 to your character level for a revelation.
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Sure, Hendel, I'd be happy to explain how it works. It uses the interaction between the Channel Energy revelation of the Life Mystery and the Elven Favored Class bonus for the Oracle:
Channel (Su): You can channel positive energy like a cleric, using your oracle level as your effective cleric level when determining the amount of damage healed (or caused to undead) and the DC. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier.
Oracle: Add +1/2 to the oracle's level for the purpose of determining the effects of one revelation.
This effectively means that you add a bonus to your oracle level when determining the number of dice you channel (as well as anything else that uses your "effective cleric level," which is your oracle level + this bonus. For kicks, if we read the Cleric's Channel Energy, you'll note that the ability never actually caps the amount of healing (or damage) that it can do.
Regardless of alignment, any cleric can release a wave of energy by channeling the power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol. This energy can be used to cause or heal damage, depending on the type of energy channeled and the creatures targeted.
A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) channels positive energy and can choose to deal damage to undead creatures or to heal living creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) channels negative energy and can choose to deal damage to living creatures or to heal undead creatures. A neutral cleric of a neutral deity (or one who is not devoted to a particular deity) must choose whether she channels positive or negative energy. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric can cast spontaneous cure or inflict spells (see spontaneous casting).
Channeling energy causes a burst that affects all creatures of one type (either undead or living) in a 30-foot radius centered on the cleric. The amount of damage dealt or healed is equal to 1d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage for every two cleric levels beyond 1st (2d6 at 3rd, 3d6 at 5th, and so on). Creatures that take damage from channeled energy receive a Will save to halve the damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the cleric's level + the cleric's Charisma modifier. Creatures healed by channel energy cannot exceed their maximum hit point total—all excess healing is lost. A cleric may channel energy a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. This is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A cleric can choose whether or not to include herself in this effect.
A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability.
This means that if you invest all of your favored class ranks into this bonus, you get a Channel Energy bonus that looks like this:
Oracle Level | Oracle Level + Favored Class Bonus = Effective Cleric Level (Dice)
01 | 1 + 0 = 1 (1d6)
02 | 2 + 1 = 3 (2d6)
03 | 3 + 1 = 4 (2d6)
04 | 4 + 2 = 6 (3d6)
05 | 5 + 2 = 7 (4d6)
06 | 6 + 3 = 9 (4d6)
07 | 7 + 3 = 10 (5d6)
08 | 8 + 4 = 12 (6d6)
09 | 9 + 4 = 13 (7d6)
10 | 10 + 5 = 15 (8d6)
11 | 11 + 5 = 16 (8d6)
12 | 12 + 6 = 18 (9d6)
13 | 13 + 6 = 19 (10d6)
14 | 14 + 7 = 21 (11d6)
15 | 15 + 7 = 22 (11d6)
16 | 16 + 8 = 24 (12d6)
17 | 17 + 8 = 25 (13d6)
18 | 18 + 9 = 27 (14d6)
19 | 19 + 9 = 28 (14d6)
20 | 20 + 10 = 30 (15d6)
For additional fun, note that the Aasimar Race has the same Oracle Favored Class Bonus as the elf. Also note that roughly half of the aasimar's racial feats alter or affect channel energy, namely:
Channel Force
Improved Channel Force
Greater Channel Force
There are also a slew of other abilities that affect Channel Energy, namely:
Phylactery of Positive Channeling, which further increases your damage and healing done by Channel Energy by +2d6.
And finally, if you're willing to give up most of those extra favored class channel dice, an entire Prestige Class built around allowing you greater flexibility in your Channeling while making you a better fighter to boot.
Yes. Aasimar Channel Energy Oracle is very well supported in terms of game mechanics.
To expand on what Azten mentioned: An Aasimar Oracle's racial favored class bonus can push a revelation into orbit (so to speak). For example, a 10th level Oracle of Life who makes his Channel revelation his favored class bonus will be channeling as though he were a 15th level Oracle.
A 10th level Cleric would be healing 5d6 with his channels; a 10th level Oracle of Life, with his favored class bonus pumped into Channel Energy, would be channeling for 8d6 at the same level.
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Ninja'd ;)
Just to point out that the offset for an Oracle of Life is that he only gets 1 + CHA mod channels per day, as opposed to the Cleric's 3 + CHA mod per day.
Assuming they both have the same CHA mod (let's say +4), the Oracle of Life will have 5 channels per day for a maximum of 40d6 potential healing; the Cleric will have 7 channels per day for a maximum of 35d6 of healing.
Adding in on the fun, using the above combo would allow you to meet the prerequisites of Channel Revival at 8th level (6d6 dice normally requires 11th level). This would allow you to spend a bunch of Channel Energies to use breath of life, a 5th level spell, at 8th level. Oracles don't receive 5th level spell slots until 9th level.
This is about as gamebreaking as the "sorcerer/wizard spell list" scenario. It requires a bunch of resources to pull off and will ultimately expend your resources very quickly.
Note that an aasimar channeler might not want to go into holy vindicator since it will not grant her any favored class choices. One level might be a decent dip for full proficiencies and vindicator's shield, but personally I'd never go further than that.
Then, if you can work them in, you can use the Eldritch Heritage/Paragon Surge combo and go to town!
Note that an aasimar channeler might not want to go into holy vindicator since it will not grant her any favored class choices. One level might be a decent dip for full proficiencies and vindicator's shield, but personally I'd never go further than that.
Yup, I noted that too!
That said, the Holy Vindicator does a LOT to help Channeling. It lets you change the shape of the area of effect, gives you Channel Smite for free, increases your progression all normal-like.
But if you want a crazy number of d6s, then yes, no multiclassing for you!
Note that an aasimar channeler might not want to go into holy vindicator since it will not grant her any favored class choices. One level might be a decent dip for full proficiencies and vindicator's shield, but personally I'd never go further than that.Yup, I noted that too!
Doh'! How did I miss that? On the very same line? I blame time.
To expand on what Azten mentioned: An Aasimar Oracle's racial favored class bonus can push a revelation into orbit (so to speak). For example, a 10th level Oracle of Life who makes his Channel revelation his favored class bonus will be channeling as though he were a 15th level Oracle.
A 10th level Cleric would be healing 5d6 with his channels; a 10th level Oracle of Life, with his favored class bonus pumped into Channel Energy, would be channeling for 8d6 at the same level.
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Ninja'd ;)Just to point out that the offset for an Oracle of Life is that he only gets 1 + CHA mod channels per day, as opposed to the Cleric's 3 + CHA mod per day.
Assuming they both have the same CHA mod (let's say +4), the Oracle of Life will have 5 channels per day for a maximum of 40d6 potential healing; the Cleric will have 7 channels per day for a maximum of 35d6 of healing.
Yes but cleric has MAD and need both Wis to cast spells and CHA to channel. But Oracle just need CHA to Channel and Cast. So Oracle dump WIS and only buys CHA so most Oracles have CHA that is greater that Cleric...Also do not forget about Adept channel for Oracles that take eldritch heirage Arcane and get familiars. Also they get Alertness for free if the familiars is withen 5ft. So a 1/2 elf spend 1 skill focus feet at 1 level and it 3rd level feat for eldritch heirage Arcane...And gets a familiars, alertness, and familiars bonus abilty all for 1 feat great trade in my book. Also the familiar will soooner or later be able to deiver touch spell for you ie healing. Boom even better.
Adept Channel
Prerequisites: Ability to cast divine spells, summon familiar class ability, caster level 4th, Charisma 13.
Benefit: You gain the channel energy class feature, as a cleric, usable 2 times per day. This ability otherwise functions like the cleric's channel energy ability, except that your effective cleric level is equal to your divine spellcasting class level –3. Unlike a cleric, however, the number of times per day you may channel energy is not affected by your Charisma modifier.
So at 5th level any Oracle that takes eldritch heirage Arcane can channel.
channeling 2/day at level-3 isn't that impressive though. It's more like a few free wands of CLW than a relevant combat tactic like it can be for the aasimar oracle focused on channeling.
channeling 2/day at level-3 isn't that impressive though. It's more like a few free wands of CLW than a relevant combat tactic like it can be for the aasimar oracle focused on channeling.
it's not incompatable with an aasimar oracle with FC for channeling, even though it won't benefit from the FC itself, it's just more channels that work for healing or whatever other usage you can manage via aasimar channel feats or channel smite, etc. certainly there can be in combat cases where you don't need the full power of your over-charged FC channel, but using (char level-2) channel is just great. not to mention there's PLENTY of other great usages for the FC bonus (energy body, animal companion, etc). if you've done a 2 level dip, those channels will even be totally equivalent to a regular cleric or an oracle's channel without FC.
i don't think that's some huge power option per se, but he was just sharing a relevant option that oracles into channeling might like. certainly, PFS oracles may like the idea of not needing to spend any money on CLW wands/scrolls (and not impacting spell slots or combat relevant channels), given how wealth works in PFS.
Quandary: While it is possible, I don't think it's really viable, at least not until you are at such high level that the ability is neglible anyway. This due to the amount of feats required, combined with that you likely have other feats you want to get first like Selective Channeling, as well as maybe channel smite, alignment channel and/or extra channel. And extra channel will give you two extra full-powered channels. So at 10th level, Adept Channel will give you channel 4d6 2/day while extra channel will give you 8d6 2/day.
This of course for an aasimar cleric that DOES somewhat focus on channeling; for other builds the situation is different of course.
For the aasimar Oracle of life it 2 weaker channel to heal while it main ones are use for other stuff.
For other Oracle it 2 channel per day that mass heal to save spell slot for other thing that are not healing.
It can be use by druids and Inquistor or Rangers as well if they get summon familiar class ability some how. It may not be the best but if you are in a party with no true healer it helps out greatly.
I also like it for MT 3 wizard 3 or (Witch 3)/ Cleric 3 builds at level 9th to get more Channels that will scale with caster level -2. Also if you take trait Magical Knack then you channel equal to your caster level.
Oracle of nature can have an animal companion it's level and a half. 18th level companion at 12
Do you mean Bonded Mount? I don't think that +1/2 to the revelation does anything for that. ...or at least that's what Hero Lab thinks.
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Oracle of nature can have an animal companion it's level and a half. 18th level companion at 12Do you mean Bonded Mount? I don't think that +1/2 to the revelation does anything for that. ...or at least that's what Hero Lab thinks.
Don't try to use Hero Labs as a rules reference.
It has plenty or errors.
Oracle of nature can have an animal companion it's level and a half. 18th level companion at 12Do you mean Bonded Mount? I don't think that +1/2 to the revelation does anything for that. ...or at least that's what Hero Lab thinks.Don't try to use Hero Labs as a rules reference.
It has plenty or errors.
The herolab team knows the rules better than I do, and that's been proven over and over.
But in this case I think you're right.
Add +1/2 to the oracle’s level for the purpose of determining the effects of one revelation.
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Oracle of nature can have an animal companion it's level and a half. 18th level companion at 12Do you mean Bonded Mount? I don't think that +1/2 to the revelation does anything for that. ...or at least that's what Hero Lab thinks.Don't try to use Hero Labs as a rules reference.
It has plenty or errors.
The herolab team knows the rules better than I do, and that's been proven over and over.
But in this case I think you're right.
** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **
Yes, the Hero Lab team is very good, but nobody can catch all the corner cases and exceptions.
I know I've submitted at least half a dozen bug reports resulting in corrections and know of several others.
For example:
- Hero Labs does not calculate Dragon Totem Resilience correctly for the Invulnerable Rager.
- Arcane Strike is not shown as legal for classes and races with SLA's
- Qinggong Monk is not shown as legal to combine with all other monk archetypes
Not to bash on a program that I love, but I also have to say that Hero Lab isn't a good basis for what's RAW\RAI. As an example, it has a tendency in numerous cases to give animal companions armor training for free, even when it shouldn't; for example, a Cavalier who takes the Huntmaster archetype replaces his armor-trained mount with a dog or bird - which retains the armor training, even though it probably shouldn't.
It's been two weeks, maybe three. They know about it. They commented. Takes some time reprogram.
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I'm not bashing the software, just stating that it should not be quoted as a rules reference.
Which isn't to say it can't be used as a great starting point for finding out how the rules work. If something works a way you don't think it should in Herolab, then posting a question to find out what's going on is perfectly acceptable. But answering a question with "herolab says X", well not so much.
If only things were this simple. People tend not to respond when I post in the rules forum for clarification on very specific points.