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So I have a few questions for the board.
Lets assume we have a 20th level Wizard.
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Question 1. Said wizard cast Time stop. On his first round he cast Gate (Calling Creatures) to summon a planar creature he knows and has a pre existing contract with (No need to bargain because the price has already been determined). Question: Is the creature under the effects of the Time Stop or is he simply frozen in place until the Time stop ends?
Question 2. Said wizard cast Timestop. On his first round he cast Gate (Planar Travel) and opens a portal over his enemies. The gate itself is a circular hoop or disk from 5 to 20 feet in diameter (caster's choice) oriented in the direction you desire.
A. If say, he opens it to the middle of a volcano... When does the liquid lava start to fall on his foes(I assume at the end of the Time stop) and how much damage does it deal? 20d6 I believe but this seems a bit weak considering it would literally be a waterfall of lava on top of them.
B. If say, he opens it to the bottom of the ocean. What would the effect be? Considering that the pressure from the bottom of the ocean vs the area you are at would cause an incredible violent torrent to spew forth. I thought it would be something like Tsunami but more focused (20ft Diameter) What are the effects if above them? What about in front of them?
C. IF say, he opens it to open space (do planes have space?) what would happen. I would think everything in the area would be sucked up into the portal and into space. How far would it suck things up? Would there be a save? Again will it start at the end of time stop or instantly?
Question 3. Lets say you Use Create Demiplane, Greater and your plane is completely water but with a portal attached. Does the water refill as it pours out the portal? Could you use this to water a dessert or fill up a lake on the material plane?
Question 4. Lets say you use Magic Jar on a Black Dragon, Great Wyrm.
A. What abilities do you actually gain? It says "The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities. " What exactly are Natural and automatic abilities?
B. Lets say you use a Greater Hat of disguise (Constant Alter Self) to shift into a Medium Size Humanoid. Alter self says you gain +2 Str (after you account for the change in stats based on size). But you do you loose the Natural Armour bonus? Immunities? SR? What would you keep in a case like this?
I know its a laundry list of questions. But they just came up when thinking what a 20th level wizard could do if Pathfinder met Warhammer 40k RPG (Say a Grey Knight) (I know I'm weird.)
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Magic Jar gives you their physical but not magical abilities. SU and SLA are out but EX are kept.
Spells don't do things they don't say they do.
Gate doesn't say things just fall through the hole you make, so things don't just fall through. This means no lava falling through and no vaccum sucking things out.
Calling with Gate doesn't work during TS because it is Instantaneous and during TS you can't cast spells that effect (or affect? I forget) other creatures.
Create Demiplane doesn't create a demiplane with a hole in it. The water stays in it unless you do something else to empty it. Not sure what "with a portal attached" m eans but you'd have to figure the rules for whatever spell or effect you were using to attach said portal.
-S
Magic Jar gives you their physical but not magical abilities. SU and SLA are out but EX are kept.
I understand that. There are a lot abilities that are not spelled out though.
Spells don't do things they don't say they do.
Gate doesn't say things just fall through the hole you make, so things don't just fall through. This means no lava falling through and no vaccum sucking things out.
That might be your opinion but I disagree. Its an open portal to another place. Things can freely enter and leave. If there is a pressure causing you to enter or leave said portal it should work. Are you saying someone cant pick up something and throw it through a portal? If they can then why wouldn't gravity/pressure/ect cause things to go through.
Calling with Gate doesn't work during TS because it is Instantaneous and during TS you can't cast spells that effect (or affect? I forget) other creatures.
Re-read Time Stop. "Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat." It specifically says you can summon/call creatures to help during TS. The only question is... are they frozen until TS ends or do they act as you do before TS ends. I think its the first but its not clear.
Create Demiplane doesn't create a demiplane with a hole in it. The water stays in it unless you do something else to empty it. Not sure what "with a portal attached" means but you'd have to figure the rules for whatever spell or effect you were using to attach said portal.
Again. If you read the spell. Using Create Dimiplane, Greater - when cast within your demiplane, you may add to your demiplane (or remove from it) one of the following features (or any of the features described in create demiplane) with each casting of the spell:
Portal: Your demiplane gains a permanent gate to one location on another plane, which can only be used for planar travel. This location must be very familiar to you. This gate is always open and usable from both sides, but you can secure it using normal means (such as by building a door around it).
My question is basically... if you siphon off water from your plane... is it replaced or are you left with an empty void.
i think the answer is that you have to stop playing D&D once you have a wizard that hits 17th level. And that if anything comes into contact with 40k, then that thing dies. Awesomely.
I dont know lol. By level 10 you have probably killed a lot of demons in PF (well in certain games anyways). In 40k you need an army... and most if not all of them are going to die lol.
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Magic Jar gives you their physical but not magical abilities. SU and SLA are out but EX are kept.I understand that. There are a lot abilities that are not spelled out though.
Spells don't do things they don't say they do.
Gate doesn't say things just fall through the hole you make, so things don't just fall through. This means no lava falling through and no vaccum sucking things out.That might be your opinion but I disagree. Its an open portal to another place. Things can freely enter and leave. If there is a pressure causing you to enter or leave said portal it should work. Are you saying someone cant pick up something and throw it through a portal? If they can then why wouldn't gravity/pressure/ect cause things to go through.
Calling with Gate doesn't work during TS because it is Instantaneous and during TS you can't cast spells that effect (or affect? I forget) other creatures.Re-read Time Stop. "Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat." It specifically says you can summon/call creatures to help during TS. The only question is... are they frozen until TS ends or do they act as you do before TS ends. I think its the first but its not clear.
Create Demiplane doesn't create a demiplane with a hole in it. The water stays in it unless you do something else to empty it. Not sure what "with a portal attached" means but you'd have to figure the rules for whatever spell or effect you were using to attach said portal.Again. If you read the spell. Using Create Dimiplane, Greater - when cast within your demiplane, you may add to your demiplane (or remove from it) one of the following features (or any of the features described in create demiplane) with each casting of the spell:
Portal: Your demiplane gains a permanent gate to one location on another plane, which can only be used for planar travel. This location...
Unless a spell says it can do something then it can't do it. Unless you are houseruling it the spells you mentioned do not create lavaflows, vacuums or waterfalls either to or from them. They all mention creatures passing through it. Creatures. Not lava, not water, not air or fire or whatever.
If they did then the description calling for the spell type changing for calling creatures of the various types would also say the same about using them as free-flowing energy dispensers. They don't. Because the spells don't do that.As for syphoning off water.. I dunno. Question for the DM, as the rules don't appear to cover it.
-S
Unless a spell says it can do something then it can't do it.
So your in the camp where the Grease spell cant be lit on fire... even though it coats the area in OIL. The camp that doesn't use logic with PF.
I'm sorry but I disagree. Opening a portal to the middle of a volcano and the lava just... what... sits there. Makes a nice shiny 20ft diameter glowing spotlight... but then causing light isn't spelled out either so I guess it wouldn't glow either.
Unless a spell says it can do something then it can't do it.So your in the camp where the Grease spell cant be lit on fire... even though it coats the area in OIL. The camp that doesn't use logic with PF.
I'm sorry but I disagree. Opening a portal to the middle of a volcano and the lava just... what... sits there. Makes a nice shiny 20ft diameter glowing spotlight... but then causing light isn't spelled out either so I guess it wouldn't glow either.
I think I am in agreement with you as to the gate thingies, but logic? Really? "I wave my hands and a ball of fire shoots out at you". Not sure where the logic is there. I like the gate idea due to the rule of "cool". RAW wise, no idea.
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Unless a spell says it can do something then it can't do it.So your in the camp where the Grease spell cant be lit on fire... even though it coats the area in OIL. The camp that doesn't use logic with PF.
I'm sorry but I disagree. Opening a portal to the middle of a volcano and the lava just... what... sits there. Makes a nice shiny 20ft diameter glowing spotlight... but then causing light isn't spelled out either so I guess it wouldn't glow either.
I'm in the camp that says, magic is powerful enough without adding extra things to make them do things they don't say they do.
Grease doesn't say anything about Oil. Nor about it being flammable. Therefore, it isn't.
Opening the portal to a volcano creates a portal to a volcano. Anyone stupid enough to walk through it unprotected gets burnt to a crisp.
If they don't walk through it they are in no danger because the spell is for calling creatures or for traveling to other places- not for shunting the elemental plane of fire onto your enemies.
-S
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A player will most certainly be able to use gate in the described fashion in my games. It is creative and fun, and I would certainly reward a player for their ingenuity rather than create an atmosphere of "null creativity." I believe the whole "it doesn't work because the spell doesn't say it does" to be a lazy GM cop out. The game is written on the premise that the rules can't possibly cover everything, and that GMs will have to wing it from time to time. Do PCs not go to the bathroom? After all, their are no rules for it. Absurd!
Also, if by 17th-level a GM cannot handle simple lava flows, floods, and vacuums, then he really shouldn't be running high level games.
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I think I am in agreement with you as to the gate thingies, but logic? Really? "I wave my hands and a ball of fire shoots out at you". Not sure where the logic is there. I like the gate idea due to the rule of "cool". RAW wise, no idea.Unless a spell says it can do something then it can't do it.So your in the camp where the Grease spell cant be lit on fire... even though it coats the area in OIL. The camp that doesn't use logic with PF.
I'm sorry but I disagree. Opening a portal to the middle of a volcano and the lava just... what... sits there. Makes a nice shiny 20ft diameter glowing spotlight... but then causing light isn't spelled out either so I guess it wouldn't glow either.
Internal logic of the game world, yes.
Spells do what they say they do and only what they say they do. Extrapolating extra effects into the spells just makes spellcasters even more powerful than they are.Does fireball suck all the oxygen out of a room and potentially suffocate the inhabitants? No. Why? Because fire doesn't work that way? No- because the spell doesn't specify that effect.
Spells do what they do and don't do what they don't do.
-S
Unless a spell says it can do something then it can't do it. Unless you are houseruling it the spells you mentioned do not create lavaflows, vacuums or waterfalls either to or from them. They all mention creatures passing through it. Creatures. Not lava, not water, not air or fire or whatever.. It says it creates a portal. Lava falling through the portal isn't an effect of the spell, it is an effect of gravity, which is not included in the spell description because it always applies unless otherwise stated. It is the same reason that the spell description of meteor swarm doesn't specify "a target with less than X hit-points can be killed by this spell--it just says how much hit-point damage it does and lets you figure out what that implies (in this case by referring you to other rules which explain hit-points). Next think ya know people will be saying that Implosion doesn't prevent the target from taking standard actions if it fails its save...
Implosion only stops them from taking actions if the HP damage on a failed save is enough to reduce them to -1 (or fewer) HP. The spell in and of itself doesn't end your actions, except through unconsciousness or death.
If Gate (or any other spell) was meant to pull lava through then it would say so and would provide rules for such. (such as changing the spell to Fire for using lava or to Cold for doing so from a glacier or from the winds of an ongoing blizzard or Earth from opening it to the Elem. Plane of Earth and making rocks fall or Air from high winds due to opening it on the Plane of Air.)
The spell lacks those because it wasn't intended or created for such use. It was created to summon creatures or to act as a passage way for creatures to pass through.
Feel free to change it in your campaigns if it makes sense for you and is more fun for you and your players. Just don't go around stating that RAW allows it. Because it doesn't.
You'll notice if you go flipping through Conjuration spells that Paizo did away with most if not all of the "Evocation in the Conjuration school" spells except those that have been around a very, very long time. (such as Acid Arrow and some of the Cloud spells)
Turning Gate, a conjuration spell, into the most powerful elemental damaging spell in the game probably wasn't their intent. They tend to save that stuff for Evocation. The Damaging school.
-S
If Gate (or any other spell) was meant to pull lava through then it would say so and would provide rules for such.
Honestly I think this a cop out myself. There are plenty of rules that are not spelled out. If you go strickly by what the rules say then death is no big deal... you can still act. After all nothing in the description of death says you cant take actions.
They didn't put in rules for other uses on Gate imo because you have an infinite uses... Water, lava, vacum of space, ect. Ravingdork had it right when he said it. As a GM you have to come up with stuff the rules dont cover. Like how much damage would lava deal if you used Gate to drop it on your enemies.
As for making it more powerful? Maybe. More versitile sure. But if it does 20d6 (I seem to recall a rule that being submerged in lava was 20d6 a round)then thats right on par with other damaging 9th level spells. Void of space would be hard to balance but if you provide a reflex save to hold on to something then its just a normal save or suck spell. And Gate cant be opened to a place on the same plane as the one your on. Do any other planes have space? That was one of the questions.
Maybe I should have put this in General instead of rules. For those who say it only does what it says it does. Fine. Then assume its a house rule... How would you answer my questions?
If Gate (or any other spell) was meant to pull lava through then it would say so and would provide rules for such.Honestly I think this a cop out myself. There are plenty of rules that are not spelled out. If you go strickly by what the rules say then death is no big deal... you can still act. After all nothing in the description of death says you cant take actions.
They didn't put in rules for other uses on Gate imo because you have an infinite uses... Water, lava, vacum of space, ect. Ravingdork had it right when he said it. As a GM you have to come up with stuff the rules dont cover. Like how much damage would lava deal if you used Gate to drop it on your enemies.
As for making it more powerful? Maybe. More versitile sure. But if it does 20d6 (I seem to recall a rule that being submerged in lava was 20d6 a round)then thats right on par with other damaging 9th level spells. Void of space would be hard to balance but if you provide a reflex save to hold on to something then its just a normal save or suck spell. And Gate cant be opened to a place on the same plane as the one your on. Do any other planes have space? That was one of the questions.
Maybe I should have put this in General instead of rules. For those who say it only does what it says it does. Fine. Then assume its a house rule... How would you answer my questions?
Honestly, 20d6 damage would make Gate the equivalent of a 3rd level spell cast with a CL20. Except worse, since you can metamagic Fireball and not Gate.
And yeah, making a gate into outer space would be cool, but it would screw with you and the party as much as it would with the NPCs. I think a wizard sucked into the vacuum of space has some issues-- can you cast spells in a vacuum?
So yeah, I don't see balance issues with using Gate to deal environmental Hazard damage. It's a 9th level spell, after all. Most of those uses seem weaker than just getting a Pit Fiend to do things for you.
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The problem is that once you let spells do things that they weren't intended to do you have to decide where to draw the line. Sure THIS use of THIS spell doesn't SEEM so bad, but when you have to start arguing the effects of EVERY spell because people want to have it do things it wasn't intended your whole session will be derailed.
Also, why do people keep arguing that grease is flammable...
The problem is that once you let spells do things that they weren't intended to do you have to decide where to draw the line. Sure THIS use of THIS spell doesn't SEEM so bad, but when you have to start arguing the effects of EVERY spell because people want to have it do things it wasn't intended your whole session will be derailed.
Also, why do people keep arguing that grease is flammable...
I guess that my opinion is that it is the GM's responsibility to draw these lines. These questions came up in 1st and 2nd edition, but because so many rules required extrapolation, GMs just went with their gut instincts. Sometimes, games got derailed... Not the end of the world.
To answer your question: because the spell is called Grease? I like my players to come up with creative uses for spells. Not sure how I would adjudicate this one.
If Gate (or any other spell) was meant to pull lava through then it would say so and would provide rules for such.Honestly I think this a cop out myself. There are plenty of rules that are not spelled out. If you go strickly by what the rules say then death is no big deal... you can still act. After all nothing in the description of death says you cant take actions.
They didn't put in rules for other uses on Gate imo because you have an infinite uses... Water, lava, vacum of space, ect. Ravingdork had it right when he said it. As a GM you have to come up with stuff the rules dont cover. Like how much damage would lava deal if you used Gate to drop it on your enemies.
As for making it more powerful? Maybe. More versitile sure. But if it does 20d6 (I seem to recall a rule that being submerged in lava was 20d6 a round)then thats right on par with other damaging 9th level spells. Void of space would be hard to balance but if you provide a reflex save to hold on to something then its just a normal save or suck spell. And Gate cant be opened to a place on the same plane as the one your on. Do any other planes have space? That was one of the questions.
Maybe I should have put this in General instead of rules. For those who say it only does what it says it does. Fine. Then assume its a house rule... How would you answer my questions?
Ok.
Assuming its a houserule and that I wasn't just out to bork the players. (cuz, I don't do that. If we agree on a rule, thenits the rule not "its the rule but now i get to screw you hahaha)Scenario 1: Volcano.
From the CONJURATION heading in the MAGIC chapter of the CRB:
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
So you can't have a portal appear above someone's head (unless there is some frame work to support it) nor can you have it just appear in mid volcano.
You could though have it on the wall of a volcano or on any ledge. You'd probably have to scry or use some other magic to find a suitable location but lets face it- once you've found a suitable spot you found it. Unless the volcano erupts that location is unlikely to change.So how much falls through? I have absolutely no freaking idea.
The Game Mastery Guide says that the fastest lava (Pyroclastic Flow) runs 500 feet a round, doing 2d6/round for being touched and 10d6/round being submerged with a reflex save at 20 for half damage.
Now math isn't my thing. Seriously. I've failed more math classes than I've passed in my life, so I am not even going to try to figure out just how much volume something moving 500ft/round is going to fill in the few rounds you can keep the spell open.
I will say this though: the caster better be immune to fire or he's going to murder himself with his own spell.
Lava outside the Pyroclastic flow moves a more sedate 60 feet a round. Since it is improbable that you can cast the gate literally above someone's head it should be at least relatively easy for them to get out of the way of it before it hits them, at least until the volume of it starts to actually fill the room. (at which point both you and them are probably dead.)
So you cast Gate and lava pours out. Depending on which book you go by you either take 2d6 for a save or 10d6 or 20d6 for a failed save. (nice of them to be clear about it, yes?).
THey take 1d6/round pass or fail just for being in the vicinity of the super-heated stuff (CRB/environment) and 2d6 for exposure/20d6 for total immersion (or 10d6 according to Disasters in the Game mastery guide).
WHen you stop concentrating all the stuff disappears. (except the damage to people and objects, of course) as per the Magic section of the CRB.
How would I run it? Immunity to fire would protect against all, otherwise:
1d6/round for anyone within 50 feet of the lava regardless of save.
2d6 on a successful save when the portal opens.
10d6 for being engulfed on the leading edge of the lava.
20d6 for being further in than the leading edge.
Lava would come through the portal covering 12 squares a round until the caster stopped the spell at which point it would all disappear.
If I did the math right, range is 300 feet at 20th level with a maximum of 20 rounds so depending on the direction of the lava and any barriers/etc its entirely possible for the caster to burn himself to ash with it if they aren't careful. (though also certainly possible to do it with 0 damage to self, all depending on terrain).
I would also inform the players that casting Gate in this manner would have a very low chance (maybe 1% each casting, cumulative if the "source" was the same place over and over again) to have something living in the lava come to see who is stealing it. (something CR appropriate who may or may not be friendly depending on subsequent actions of the caster or whoever is around)
Does that make it the best damaging spell in existence? Yes. Would I actually allow that? No. But you said houserule, and if I was going to do so thats how I'd do it.
Now how would that work with Time Stop?
Simply put- it wouldn't.
You could cast the Gate to a volcano while under TS but nothing would fall out of it until after TS had ended. So, no flooding a room with lava during TS just to make everyone do 20d6/round while suffocating when TS runs off.
Scenario II. Vacuum.
Golarion actually has "space". It has planets. (Golarion is one of many.) It has moons and a vacuum.
The issue would be placing Gate somewhere that had a vaccuum but also had a suitable place to drop the Gate.
But heck you are a high level caster- lets just assume you spent a year and alot of Scry spells (or a wish spell to just make a suitable place in a vacuum) and so that was taken care of.
A vacuum would suck things into the gate and out into the vacuum.
The caster is effected.
You can't hold onto the gate.
Firstly: DC 20 reflex (made that DC up, could be anything. I figure 20 for lava, heck its good for this too) to grab onto something. If nothing is available then its a DC 20 to find a way. (stab axe/sword in the ground, a piton, or something).
10 feet or closer: DC 20 reflex or sucked in on the round the gate is opened.
20-50 feet: DC 20 reflex save to grab onto something and has standard action to "do something".
50-100 feet away: DC 20 reflex save to grab onto something and has 1 full round to "do something"
100-150 feet away: Small objects zoom towards the vacuum, flying creatures Large or smaller need to make a DC 15 fly check or move 50 feet towards the Gate. Creatures smaller than small need to make a Reflex save (dc 10) or be pulled 50 feet towards the gate.
150+ feet away: The "pull" is there but easily resisted.
IN THE VACCUM:
Distant Worlds p. 54 says Vaccum does 3d6/round no save from Decompression and you immediately begin to Suffocate (as the CRB rules for such). Anyone in the Vacuum itself (i.e. actually sucked through the gate) is also under a Silence effect that can't be dispelled. (since it isn't magical).
I.. don't remember if you asked anything else, and this post is long enough already so..
-S
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It is the responsibility of the DM to draw the line, but it is also the responsibility of the players to not always be trying to redraw and bend the line every chance they get.
Spells do what they say they do. Spellcasters are plenty powerful enough without rewriting every spell into a list of 400 things they can do that they don't say they do.
Every spell has an intended use given what it says its for and given its level and its cost and casting time.
Is grease flammable?
Well. lets just say it is.
How flammable? Does it explode? Does it just burn? How much damage? For how long? If you grease someone's weapon and then Fireball the owner does the weapon catch on fire? How much damage?
Does burning grease still operate as a Grease spell?
Does the fact that its burning decrease the duration at all? If so, by how much?
If not- why? burning grease depletes the grease. If its going to burn (since logically grease burns) then shouldn't it also decrease from burning? (since that also follows the logic).
If I grease someone's armor and Fireball them do they roast in their own armor? Why not?
Do we have to do this for every single spell in the game?
Lets look at it from every angle to see what other things the spell SHOULD be doing but the designers just decided not to add to the page count.
I'm willing to bet that very nearly every single damaging elemental spell can be "added to" in some fashion because "logic" says that X Y Z should go well beyond what the spell says.
It isn't about Grease. Its about spells doing what spells say they do.
If you don't like that- then please by all means houserule it. But here on the boards in Rules discussions- spells do what they say they do. They don't do what they don't say they do unless it directly relates to some other applicable rule. (like a fireball dropping you to -54 HP when your con is 12. You are dead even though Fireball doesn't discuss death.)
If grease is flammable then the players have every logical right to super examine every single spell in the game for additional effects.
Creative is good. Imagination is good. Increasing the base power of spells by adding powers to them not listed in the description is bad.
-S
edit:
Depleat? really? edited for spelling.
"You ignite the grease with a torch as a standard action. It'll deal 1d6 damage to anybody who is on it (I honestly can't find the rules for non-magical fire damage?) and the smoke will block LOS for people within it. After 1 round the grease is consumed."
Shrug. Doesn't seem so hard. I'm with Andreww-- I might conclude that it's not flammable because not every type of grease burns easily (maybe it takes a full-round action because it takes a while to get the grease hot enough), but not because spells should only do what the description says.
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And thats a perfectly good houserule.
But its not RAW. Grease isn't flammable.
You just made up 4 new rules just to make it flammable
(use a torch as standard action, 1d6 damage, smoke and LOS, consuming it after 1 round).
Can you honestly say the Grease spell has that in there? Even implied?
I can't. I really can't.
-S
Well, since the material component is butter, I would guess that the grease has the properties of butter? I honestly don't know how flammable butter is, so....
I'm not disagreeing that what I'm doing is making up house rules. I'm just saying that I'm not sure I see what the big deal about using spells in this way is. In the examples I've seen (gating in lava, setting grease on fire) the effects seem less powerful than just using the spells as designed.
Scenario 1: Volcano.
From the CONJURATION heading in the MAGIC chapter of the CRB:A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.So you can't have a portal appear above someone's head (unless there is some frame work to support it) nor can you have it just appear in mid volcano. *Good Info on Lava damage*...
Ok so you have some great info on lava. It is confusing that they have different rules on lava damage. Its one of the reasons I asked. But I like your ideas on what kinda damage it would do. I disagree that its super great for damage... just ok imo. The only think I have to question is the portal being on a solid surface. The quoted text seems to be conserned with summoning creatures... and makes sure you aren't summoning Mammoths over someone in mid air.
If you look at the text of Gate. Bolded text for emphasis.
The gate itself is a circular hoop or disk from 5 to 20 feet in diameter (caster's choice) oriented in the direction you desire when it comes into existence (typically vertical and facing you). It is a two-dimensional window looking into the plane you specified when casting the spell, and anyone or anything that moves through is shunted instantly to the other side.
So if its typically that way... I can assume it doesn't have to be. So it can be Horizontal or facing away from me. The back side of the portal is harmless. It should shield you from damage untill said lava made its way around. It might still need to me secured to a surface. This would complicate things.
When you stop concentrating all the stuff disappears. (except the damage to people and objects, of course) as per the Magic section of the CRB.
Hmmm... it does say creation effect under the planar travel part doesn't it. I would infer the same thing exept... If you open a Gate and someone walks through and you stop concentrating the person doesn't disappear. This part is rough. I could see it staying or disapearing.
I would also inform the players that casting Gate in this manner would have a very low chance (maybe 1% each casting, cumulative if the "source" was the same place over and over again) to have something living in the lava come to see who is stealing it. (something CR appropriate who may or may not be friendly depending on subsequent actions of the caster or whoever is around)
Now that would be funny. I would actually think this cool if I where the player. Say a very big, very old, very irritated Red Dragon comes through wondering why his favorite bath is getting smaller and smaller. That would be a good chuckle after the game. Now your thinking like the GM of a game that allows the crazy like this! lol. I will turn you yet.
I will get to the rest later.
It is the responsibility of the DM to draw the line, but it is also the responsibility of the players to not always be trying to redraw and bend the line every chance they get.
Spells do what they say they do. Spellcasters are plenty powerful enough without rewriting every spell into a list of 400 things they can do that they don't say they do.
Every spell has an intended use given what it says its for and given its level and its cost and casting time.Is grease flammable?
Well. lets just say it is.
How flammable? Does it explode? Does it just burn? How much damage? For how long? If you grease someone's weapon and then Fireball the owner does the weapon catch on fire? How much damage?Does burning grease still operate as a Grease spell?
Does the fact that its burning decrease the duration at all? If so, by how much?
If not- why? burning grease depletes the grease. If its going to burn (since logically grease burns) then shouldn't it also decrease from burning? (since that also follows the logic).If I grease someone's armor and Fireball them do they roast in their own armor? Why not?
Do we have to do this for every single spell in the game?
Lets look at it from every angle to see what other things the spell SHOULD be doing but the designers just decided not to add to the page count.I'm willing to bet that very nearly every single damaging elemental spell can be "added to" in some fashion because "logic" says that X Y Z should go well beyond what the spell says.
It isn't about Grease. Its about spells doing what spells say they do.
If you don't like that- then please by all means houserule it. But here on the boards in Rules discussions- spells do what they say they do. They don't do what they don't say they do unless it directly relates to some other applicable rule. (like a fireball dropping you to -54 HP when your con is 12. You are dead even though Fireball doesn't discuss death.)If grease is flammable then the players have every logical right to super examine every...
Great post. This perfectly lays out the problems with spell power creep.
Well, since the material component is butter, I would guess that the grease has the properties of butter? I honestly don't know how flammable butter is, so....
I'm not disagreeing that what I'm doing is making up house rules. I'm just saying that I'm not sure I see what the big deal about using spells in this way is. In the examples I've seen (gating in lava, setting grease on fire) the effects seem less powerful than just using the spells as designed.
I used a poor example with grease. I thought is specified OIL in the description and I was wrong. There are plenty of greases that are not flamable so I totally agree that it probably cant be set on fire. I would allow a player to do research and come up with a version that could. (1d6 reflex for non... grease is gone the round after set aflame). But as written... no it can not be set on fire. I dont know where i got oil from. I could have sworn it said oil. O well.
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Yeah, I'm inclined to agree. Off the cuff, I'd rule the say I said above (that it can). If I had time to sit down and deliberate after the session, I'd say that it's just not flammable enough.
But again, it's because this specific type of grease isn't flammable, not because the spell doesn't say that you can. I honestly don't get the "power creep" argument-- maybe a better example than grease or gate is in order? I'm not saying I disagree with your position, I'm just not seeing these cases as being egregious enough to worry about.
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree. Off the cuff, I'd rule the say I said above (that it can). If I had time to sit down and deliberate after the session, I'd say that it's just not flammable enough.
But again, it's because this specific type of grease isn't flammable, not because the spell doesn't say that you can. I honestly don't get the "power creep" argument-- maybe a better example than grease or gate is in order? I'm not saying I disagree with your position, I'm just not seeing these cases as being egregious enough to worry about.
I agree. Its not a question of power creep imo. After all this is a 9th level spell. Its in the same group as Time Stop, Meteor Swarm, and Wish. Using gate for lava instead of calling in 40HD worth of outsiders is underpowered. It is however unique and a fun way to use the spell. Why not. And whether its RAW or not has little to do with the fact I firmly believe its RAI.
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If grease is flammable then the players have every logical right to super examine every...
Except it isn't. Nothing in the spell says that it is, and the devs have come out and said it isn't.
Because you can imagine it, doesn't make it so. People like to pretend RAW is "Rule as I can imagine it"
Spells (and skills) do what they say they do. Not what you can imagine.
Well...without GM approval. Or GM Fiat...that cruel word, except when it is in the players favor...
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If grease is flammable then the players have every logical right to super examine every...Except it isn't. Nothing in the spell says that it is, and the devs have come out and said it isn't.
Because you can imagine it, doesn't make it so. People like to pretend RAW is "Rule as I can imagine it"
Spells (and skills) do what they say they do. Not what you can imagine.
Well...without GM approval. Or GM Fiat...that cruel word, except when it is in the players favor...
I agree.
Which is the point of my entire post.Spells do what they say they do. Grease isn't flammable.
Why? Because the spell doesn't say that it is.
-S
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Shield creates an invisible shield of force that hovers in front of you. It negates magic missile attacks directed at you. The disk also provides a +4 shield bonus to AC. This bonus applies against incorporeal touch attacks, since it is a force effect. The shield has no armor check penalty or arcane spell failure chance.
We'll it's a shield of force and has a physical form so I should be able to grab onto it hold on to it to levitate. Can I grab it and have someone push me across a chasm? It doesn't have a hold limit or size so it doesn't matter how big I am or what I weight.
Just looked through first level spells to see what I could come up with lol...
DM Fiat is a double standard when it's in the players' favor? Yup. And there's not necessarily anything wrong with that.
The point of the game is to have fun. If letting a player do things that aren't, strictly speaking, RAW, then who cares if everybody agrees that it's cool?
We had a session where we were descending down a mine shaft and had a black pudding fall on us. This set up a chase scene where we were trying to escape from the pudding. While running from it, we happened across a mine-cart. We then proceeded to have a Temple of Doom-style mine-cart chase with a huge wave of Black Pudding nipping at our heels. At no point did we go "Yawn. A Black Pudding has a base speed of 20 feet. I'll just Expeditious Retreat the paladin and we can pretty much ignore it." We wanted mine-cart chases, dammit, even if we had to change the monster's base speed to get one.
So in sum... if the players have more fun if the rules do more than RAW, then what's wrong with it?
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If grease is flammable then the players have every logical right to super examine every...Except it isn't. Nothing in the spell says that it is, and the devs have come out and said it isn't.
Because you can imagine it, doesn't make it so. People like to pretend RAW is "Rule as I can imagine it"
Spells (and skills) do what they say they do. Not what you can imagine.
Well...without GM approval. Or GM Fiat...that cruel word, except when it is in the players favor...
I agree.
Which is the point of my entire post.
Spells do what they say they do. Grease isn't flammable.
Why? Because the spell doesn't say that it is.-S
Just emphasising :)
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DM Fiat is a double standard when it's in the players' favor? Yup. And there's not necessarily anything wrong with that.
The point of the game is to have fun. If letting a player do things that aren't, strictly speaking, RAW, then who cares if everybody agrees that it's cool?
We had a session where we were descending down a mine shaft and had a black pudding fall on us. This set up a chase scene where we were trying to escape from the pudding. While running from it, we happened across a mine-cart. We then proceeded to have a Temple of Doom-style mine-cart chase with a huge wave of Black Pudding nipping at our heels. At no point did we go "Yawn. A Black Pudding has a base speed of 20 feet. I'll just Expeditious Retreat the paladin and we can pretty much ignore it." We wanted mine-cart chases, dammit, even if we had to change the monster's base speed to get one.
So in sum... if the players have more fun if the rules do more than RAW, then what's wrong with it?
Nothing, until you claim entitlement to Fiat of spells in your favor as RAW.
The GM being nice and letting something slide for the rule of cool is something the GM can do. Not something they must do.
And when the discussions on here become about how powerful something is because of what is read into it and how cruel GMs are blocking something by fiat which was never allowed in the first place.
It's like telling your buddy to get a beer out of the fridge if he wants one, then a week later when he comes over he starts complaining because there is no beer.
Ok guys. Obviously we are talking about different play styles. Its fine. You play it strictly RAW. Fine. Now just pretend its a houserule. Can we please get back to my questions? Or if your just here to argue about what spells can and cant do... create your own thread and go there. I wanted to get ideas on how to deal with what happened in certain situations... not start a flame war.
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well, question 1 is easy to answer:
Question 1. Said wizard cast Time stop. On his first round he cast Gate (Calling Creatures) to summon a planar creature he knows and has a pre existing contract with (No need to bargain because the price has already been determined). Question: Is the creature under the effects of the Time Stop or is he simply frozen in place until the Time stop ends?
Time Stop does not effect anyone else in the area but the caster as it is a range personal spell. It does not stop time for everyone, but instead speeds the caster up so that everyone else appears stopped (which is why it has no Saving Throw or Spell Resistance). Since you do not share spells with summoned or called creatures, it would be there, but stopped, until the time stop ended.
It's like telling your buddy to get a beer out of the fridge if he wants one, then a week later when he comes over he starts complaining because there is no beer.
Shrug. This just sounds like an issue with people acting like jerks, not with game philosophy. I'd just talk to my "buddy" and ask him not to do that.
One thing about Gate is that it seems to say that you need to open a gate to another plane. So to do the vacuum thing, you'd need to pick another plane with "space". And the environmental hazard thing does have some issues. Like, if you open a Gate to the Elemental Plane of Water, does an infinite torrent of water gush out? If so, then it's an awesome control spell, but a really crappy travel spell. I would imagine that some protections against the environment on the other plane is inherent in the casting of the Gate spell, so maybe the vacuum doesn't work. But anything can pass through a gate, so the lava thing should, provided that it's already in motion and you're just putting a portal in front if it.
It's too bad that scrying can be so limited in-combat-- putting one end of a Gate in front of an asteroid and the other end in front of an enemy would be pretty awesome.
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Unless a spell says it can do something then it can't do it.So your in the camp where the Grease spell cant be lit on fire... even though it coats the area in OIL. The camp that doesn't use logic with PF.
Or the camp that knows about nonflammable oils. Go ahead, try to set refined safflower oil on fire.
I think my thread has been derailed beyond repair (And its my fault to boot). Sigh.
@Happler - I think the same thing. It is pulled through the Gate and frozen in place until the end of your Time Stop. Its just not really spelled out.
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But that's exactly my point: Implosion can stop you from taking actions even though it doesn't say so, because it causes something else which can prevent you from taking actions. Gate does not "pull" lava through...Unless a spell says it can do something then it can't do it. Unless you are houseruling it the spells you mentioned do not create lavaflows, vacuums or waterfalls either to or from them. They all mention creatures passing through it. Creatures. Not lava, not water, not air or fire or whatever.. It says it creates a portal. Lava falling through the portal isn't an effect of the spell, it is an effect of gravity, which is not included in the spell description because it always applies unless otherwise stated. It is the same reason that the spell description of meteor swarm doesn't specify "a target with less than X hit-points can be killed by this spell--it just says how much hit-point damage it does and lets you figure out what that implies (in this case by referring you to other rules which explain hit-points). Next think ya know people will be saying that Implosion doesn't prevent the target from taking standard actions if it fails its save...Implosion only stops them from taking actions if the HP damage on a failed save is enough to reduce them to -1 (or fewer) HP. The spell in and of itself doesn't end your actions, except through unconsciousness or death.
If Gate (or any other spell) was meant to pull lava through then it would say so and would provide rules for such. (such as changing the spell to Fire for using lava or to Cold for doing so from a glacier or from the winds of an ongoing blizzard or Earth from opening it to the Elem. Plane of Earth and making rocks fall or Air from high winds due to opening it on the Plane of Air.)
The spell lacks those because it wasn't intended or created for such use. It was created to summon creatures or to act as a passage way for creatures to pass through.
You don't have to extrapolate brand new rules for Implosion.
If you exceed their HP they go unconscious (as per the HP rules) and if you exceed their -con then they are dead (also as per the HP rules.)You don't have to say "well.. CRAP! it did more than his HP. Lets make something up!". No, you just follow *the rules*.
For you to create lava with the spell you have to create rules enough to essentially double the length of the spell. In fact, more than that if you do it for all the possible elements involved with the spell. You also have to figure out what kind of lava is coming out and at what speed (does the PC pick? does the DM? die roll?).
In order to "apply gravity" to the spell you basically have to completely rewrite the spell and add a TON of stuff to it that, for most of it, isn't in the rules at all.
Why?
Because that isn't what the spell is for and isn't what the spell was intended to be used for. CAN the DM allow it? Sure! SHOULD he? Thats up to him and the group!
Is it RAW to do so? Heck no!
If you have to invent pages of rules to make a spell do something then its a pretty good indication that the spell wasn't intended to do that- at least not by RAW.
-S
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I think my thread has been derailed beyond repair (And its my fault to boot). Sigh.
@Happler - I think the same thing. It is pulled through the Gate and frozen in place until the end of your Time Stop. Its just not really spelled out.
Agreed on the derailment. LOL
As for the other, it does not need to spell it out in Time Stop. "Range Personal" says it all. Spells with a range of personal do not effect anything else.
It is the same as saying that you have the shield spell up (another range personal buff spell), and gate in a creature. Does the gated creature also get the benefit of the shield spell? Of course not.
Time Stop is not a "control" or "de-buff" spell anymore. It is now a buff for the caster. It happens to be a buff that allows the caster 1d4+1 rounds of extra actions, but it is still a personal range buff spell.
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The problem is that once you let spells do things that they weren't intended to do you have to decide where to draw the line. Sure THIS use of THIS spell doesn't SEEM so bad, but when you have to start arguing the effects of EVERY spell because people want to have it do things it wasn't intended your whole session will be derailed.
Also, why do people keep arguing that grease is flammable...
If lines didn't have to be set, there would be no need for GMs.