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Why should weird styles be as good as normal styles? Doesn't it make more sense that people would generally use the most effective style, making it the norm, and less effective styles would be less used because...well...they are less effective.
The entire concept of the crossbow was that it was a simple weapon someone could use with little training.
Mission Accomplished.
Why should weird styles be as good as normal styles?
Having more combat styles that are different among themselves but equally effective encourages variety and innovation. Those are good things. They encourage players to try new stuff, which helps to attract new players and and keep veterans interested.
Why should one or another combat style be superior to all other similar options? Why is the guy who wants to play a crossbow always behind the archer
Why make an arbitrary decision about what should be great and what should suck instead of simply creating balanced options and let natural selection run its course?
Besides, how is using crossbows "a weird combat style"?
Doesn't it make more sense that people would generally use the most effective style, making it the norm, and less effective styles would be less used because...well...they are less effective.
The entire concept of the crossbow was that it was a simple weapon someone could use with little training.
Mission Accomplished.
Compared to bows, crossbows had lower fire rate, but higher penetrating power.
Why should the game have 2~4 effective combat styles when it can have 10~15? What's the problem with having more (real) options?
Having one option be superior to all others seems like bad game design to me. Why have 11 classes then? Why not create a PrC that's accessible from 2nd level, and make it basically full-BAB Wizard with ultra-high AC ,all good saves and proficiency with all weapons?
It'd would be far superior to all other classes, but it's slightly harder to qualify for... And yet, I don't think many people would like that kind of game design.
.
The goal should not be to exceed the bow,
Exceed the bow? Now that would be a sight.
Every game I've participated in recently (as a player or GM) houserules that you can pay extra for "composite" crossbows, increasing damage but requiring a minimum STR to be able to reload the weapon at all. That being said, the primary place I tend to see them is as a sniper's weapon. My last character that wielded one was a ranger variant. His combat style feats were all devoted to ranged combat, and he was frighteningly effective at very long ranges with it, even if he wasn't getting more than one shot a round off. If you were within 30ft of him though, he was going to hit you with a sharp piece of metal.
Currently I'm running Jade Regent, and I've reworked the 'sniper' encounter from book 2 as a Crossbowman fighter instead of rogue. I expect her to put a sizable hole in someone from several city blocks away.
To be fair that BArd is using a lot of buff and limite resources. Te crossbowman ranger does have a cople of limited resources unespended.Just to add insult to the injury...
I hadn't seen this post... Sorry, Nicos... -.-'
But now that I finally read it, let me me answer it:
Not really. Barry has 26 rounds of Bardic Performance, so that's more than enough to use it all day long. Arcane Strike costs nothing but a swift action.
Besides... Ross Crossbower is the one using alchemical bolts! That's 5gp a shot!
Anyway, ciretose inspired me to create a new build:
Now, for a character who has to use limited resources (i.e.: a single casting of a 1st level spell), here is Holly McArchery, my bow-wielding Cleric of Desna (No free longbow proficiency for her!)
XP 6400
Female Half-Orc (Mystic) Cleric 10
CG Medium Humanoid (human, orc)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +18
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 15, flat-footed 18 (+8 armor, +5 Dex)
hp 68 (10d8+20)
Fort +12 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +11, Will +15
Defensive Abilities freedom's call (10 rounds/day)
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft., dimensional hop (100/day)
Ranged +1 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +0) +12/+12/+7 (1d8+2/19-20/x3) and
. . +3 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +0) +14/+14/+9 (1d8+4/19-20/x3)
Special Attacks agile feet (8/day)
Spell-Like Abilities Dimensional Hop (100/day)
Cleric Spells Prepared (CL 10):
5 (3/day) Breath of Life (x2) (DC 20), Teleport, Air Walk, Communal
4 (4/day) Divine Power (x2), Freedom of Movement, Freedom of Movement (x2)
3 (4/day) Invisibility Purge (x2), Stone Shape (x2), Fly
2 (5/day) Silence (DC 17), Remove Paralysis, Protection from Evil, Communal (x2), Grace (x2)
1 (6/day) Divine Favor (x4), Longstrider, Protection from Evil, Obscuring Mist
0 (at will) Read Magic, Purify Food and Drink (DC 15), Detect Magic, Light
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Statistics
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Str 12, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +6; CMD 23
Feats Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice), Manyshot, Martial Weapon Proficiency (Longbow), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
Traits Desperate Focus, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +5 (+9 jump), Knowledge (religion) +13, Perception +18, Sense Motive +18, Swim +1 (+5 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion)
Languages Common, Orc
SQ aura, cleric channel positive energy 5d6 (2/day) (dc 14), domains (liberation, travel), liberation (10 rounds/day), spontaneous casting
Combat Gear Pearl of power (1st level) (1/day), Wand of Cure Light Wounds, Wand of Restoration, Lesser; Other Gear +2 Mithral Breastplate, +1 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +0), +3 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +0), Belt of physical perfection +2, Bracers of falcon's aim, Cloak of resistance +2, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, 500 GP
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Special Abilities
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Agile Feet (8/day) (Su) For 1r, you ignore difficult terrain.
Aura (Ex) The Cleric has an aura corresponding to his deity's alignment.
Cleric Channel Positive Energy 5d6 (2/day) (DC 14) (Su) Positive energy heals the living and harms the undead; negative has the reverse effect.
Cleric Domain (Liberation) Granted Powers: You are a spirit of freedom and a staunch foe against all who would enslave and oppress.
Cleric Domain (Travel) Granted Powers: You are an explorer and find enlightenment in the simple joy of travel, be it by foot or conveyance or magic. Increase your base speed by 10 feet.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Dimensional Hop (100/day) (Sp) Teleport 100'/day.
Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice) +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Freedom's Call (10 rounds/day) (Su) 30'r aura suppresses many conditions.
Liberation (10 rounds/day) (Su) Act as if you had freedom of movement for 10 rounds/day.
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Spontaneous Casting The Cleric can convert stored spells into Cure or Inflict spells.
Wand of Cure Light Wounds Add this item to create a wand of a chosen spell.
Wand of Restoration, Lesser Add this item to create a wand of a chosen spell.
DPR with Rapid Shot + Manyshot: 21.8
That's pretty low, but that's to be expected from an unbuffed Cleric with low Str.
XP 6400
Female Half-Orc (Mystic) Cleric 10
CG Medium Humanoid (human, orc)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +18
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 15, flat-footed 18 (+8 armor, +5 Dex)
hp 68 (10d8+20)
Fort +12 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +11, Will +15
Defensive Abilities freedom's call (10 rounds/day)
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft., dimensional hop (100/day)
Ranged +1 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +0) +15/+15/+10 (1d8+5/19-20/x3) and
. . +3 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +0) +17/+17/+12 (1d8+7/19-20/x3)
Special Attacks agile feet (8/day)
Spell-Like Abilities Dimensional Hop (100/day)
Cleric Spells Prepared (CL 10):
5 (3/day) Breath of Life (x2) (DC 20), Teleport, Air Walk, Communal
4 (4/day) Divine Power (x2), Freedom of Movement, Freedom of Movement (x2)
3 (4/day) Invisibility Purge (x2), Stone Shape (x2), Fly
2 (5/day) Silence (DC 17), Remove Paralysis, Protection from Evil, Communal (x2), Grace (x2)
1 (6/day) Divine Favor (x4), Longstrider, Protection from Evil, Obscuring Mist
0 (at will) Read Magic, Purify Food and Drink (DC 15), Detect Magic, Light
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Statistics
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Str 12, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +9; CMD 23
Feats Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice), Manyshot, Martial Weapon Proficiency (Longbow), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
Traits Desperate Focus, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +5 (+9 jump), Knowledge (religion) +13, Perception +18, Sense Motive +18, Swim +1 (+5 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion)
Languages Common, Orc
SQ aura, cleric channel positive energy 5d6 (2/day) (dc 14), domains (liberation, travel), liberation (10 rounds/day), spontaneous casting
Combat Gear Pearl of power (1st level) (1/day), Wand of Cure Light Wounds, Wand of Restoration, Lesser; Other Gear +2 Mithral Breastplate, +1 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +0), +3 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +0), Belt of physical perfection +2, Bracers of falcon's aim, Cloak of resistance +2, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, 500 GP
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Special Abilities
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Agile Feet (8/day) (Su) For 1r, you ignore difficult terrain.
Aura (Ex) The Cleric has an aura corresponding to his deity's alignment.
Cleric Channel Positive Energy 5d6 (2/day) (DC 14) (Su) Positive energy heals the living and harms the undead; negative has the reverse effect.
Cleric Domain (Liberation) Granted Powers: You are a spirit of freedom and a staunch foe against all who would enslave and oppress.
Cleric Domain (Travel) Granted Powers: You are an explorer and find enlightenment in the simple joy of travel, be it by foot or conveyance or magic. Increase your base speed by 10 feet.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Dimensional Hop (100/day) (Sp) Teleport 100'/day.
Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice) +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Freedom's Call (10 rounds/day) (Su) 30'r aura suppresses many conditions.
Liberation (10 rounds/day) (Su) Act as if you had freedom of movement for 10 rounds/day.
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Spontaneous Casting The Cleric can convert stored spells into Cure or Inflict spells.
Wand of Cure Light Wounds Add this item to create a wand of a chosen spell.
Wand of Restoration, Lesser Add this item to create a wand of a chosen spell..
DPR With Rapid Shot + Manyshot + Divine Favor: 35.71.
Let's compare to Ross Crossbower using his best possible weapon and alchemical bolts:
DPR using Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim: 34.7
¬¬'
I see...
Holly had to use a feat just to become proficient with her main weapon, didn't boost Dex or Str when leveling up, just her Wisdom... And yet, with a single 1st level spell, she deals more damage than the Full BAB guy using expensive ammo?
Yeah... That seems fair... Crossbows sure are impressive!
Lead blades for example, that sould increase his DPR somewhat (1d10 to 2d8, the change in average damage is 4,5 to 9)
True... And Barry could cast Haste, Heroism or Good Hope. The only time Ross has a real advantage is when he fights a Favored Enemy (or casts Instant Enemy).
What full BaB guy has a 35.71 DPR?
No one... Ross' DPR is slightly lower than that... Everyone else's DPR is higher than it.
35.71 is Holly's DPR when she casts Divine Favor on herself.
I miss the bard routine, was he without those spells o_O?Lead blades for example, that sould increase his DPR somewhat (1d10 to 2d8, the change in average damage is 4,5 to 9)True... And Barry could cast Haste, Heroism or Good Hope. The only time Ross has a real advantage is when he fights a Favored Enemy (or casts Instant Enemy).
Yup... His stat block only include Arcane Strike and Bardic Performance.
And that's not even his best DPR-boosting Perfomance!
Cool, huh?
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What full BaB guy has a 35.71 DPR?No one... Ross' DPR is slightly lower than that... Everyone else's DPR is higher than it.
35.71 is Holly's DPR when she casts Divine Favor on herself.
So...when the Cleric takes a round to cast a buff they are less effective than everyone but Ross, who is the one of the least effective crossbow user posted so far.
And this shows what exactly?
So...when the Cleric takes a round to cast a buff they are less effective than everyone but Ross, who is the one of the least effective crossbow user posted so far.
And this shows what exactly?
Ross is just as optimized as all my other builds. His DPR is not that of a crossbow Fighter, but a 10th level Ranger using expensive ammo shouldn't be outclassed by a Cleric with a 1st level spell.
None of my other buids are, not even the Bard.
Fighter should have awesome DPR, not simply be on par with non-Fighters. If the only way to make crossbows compete in damage with longbows is using a highly-DPR-focused Fighter and compare it with a not-so-DPR-focused Ranger, this speaks volumes for how terrible an option crossbows are...
Here, a non-archetyped Fighter who deals over 60 DPR with his crossbow (and Acid bolts).
*Note that he still needs Str 12 because otherwise, he wouldn't be able to carry his gear. The same reason why his crossbows are made of Paueliel*
Male Human Fighter 10
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +15
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Defense
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AC 25, touch 17, flat-footed 19 (+8 armor, +6 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 89 (10d10+30)
Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +9 (+3 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
Defensive Abilities bravery +3
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Ranged +1 Paueliel Heavy crossbow +19/+19/+14 (1d10+13/19-20/x3) and
. . +2 Paueliel Heavy crossbow +20/+20/+15 (1d10+14/19-20/x3)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (heavy blades +3, crossbows +4)
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Statistics
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Str 12, Dex 22, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +9; CMD 28 (32 vs. Disarm, 38 vs. Grapple, 32 vs. Sunder, 38 vs. Trip)
Feats Combat Reflexes (7 AoO/round), Crossbow Mastery (Heavy crossbow), Deadly Aim -3/+6, Greater Weapon Focus (Heavy crossbow), Improved Snap Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload (Light crossbow), Rapid Shot, Snap Shot, Weapon Focus (Heavy crossbow), Weapon Specialization (Heavy crossbow)
Traits Auspicious Tattoo (Shoanti), Reactionary
Skills Climb +5, Intimidate +11, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +14, Knowledge (engineering) +5, Perception +15, Survival +12, Swim +5
Languages Common, Draconic
Combat Gear Crossbow bolt, acid; Other Gear +2 Mithral Breastplate, +1 Paueliel Heavy crossbow, +2 Paueliel Heavy crossbow, Crossbow bolt, acid, Belt of physical might (Dex & Con +2), Bracers of falcon's aim, Cloak of resistance +3, Gloves of dueling, Handy haversack (1 @ 4 lbs), Ring of protection +1, 710 GP
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Special Abilities
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Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 to Will save vs. Fear
Combat Reflexes (7 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Crossbow Mastery (Heavy crossbow) You can reload any crossbow as a free action. With your chosen crossbow type, this does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Deadly Aim -3/+6 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Improved Snap Shot You threaten an additional 10 feet with Snap Shot
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Reload (Light crossbow) You can reload fast with one type of Crossbow or Firearm.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Snap Shot Threaten squares within 5 feet of you when wielding a ranged weapon
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Crossbows) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Crossbows
DPR with Rapid Shot + Deadly Aim: 58.31
DPR with Rapid Shot + Deadly Aim + Acid Bolts: 64.06
Should ultra-specialized Fighters with Gloves of Dueling be the baseline for what is considered good DPR?
Let's compare Crossbow Chris to an equally specialized non-archetyped Fighter who uses a longbow and doesn't spend 5gp a shot when attacking...
XP 6400
Male Human Fighter 10
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +15
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Defense
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AC 25, touch 17, flat-footed 19 (+8 armor, +6 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 89 (10d10+30)
Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +9 (+3 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
Defensive Abilities bravery +3
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Ranged +1 Paueliel Composite longbow (Str +1) +19/+19/+14 (1d8+14/19-20/x3) and
. . +2 Paueliel Composite longbow (Str +1) +20/+20/+15 (1d8+15/19-20/x3)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (heavy blades +3, bows +4)
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Statistics
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Str 12, Dex 22, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +9; CMD 28 (32 vs. Disarm, 38 vs. Grapple, 32 vs. Sunder, 38 vs. Trip)
Feats Clustered Shots, Combat Reflexes (7 AoO/round), Deadly Aim -3/+6, Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow), Improved Snap Shot, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Snap Shot, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
Traits Auspicious Tattoo (Shoanti), Reactionary
Skills Climb +5, Intimidate +11, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +14, Knowledge (engineering) +5, Perception +15, Survival +12, Swim +5
Languages Common, Draconic
Combat Gear Crossbow bolt, acid; Other Gear +2 Mithral Breastplate, +1 Paueliel Composite longbow (Str +1), +2 Paueliel Composite longbow (Str +1), Crossbow bolt, acid, Belt of physical might (Dex & Con +2), Bracers of falcon's aim, Cloak of resistance +3, Gloves of dueling, Handy haversack (1 @ 1.5 lbs), Ring of protection +1, 710 GP
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Special Abilities
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Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 to Will save vs. Fear
Clustered Shots Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR
Combat Reflexes (7 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Deadly Aim -3/+6 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Improved Snap Shot You threaten an additional 10 feet with Snap Shot
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Snap Shot Threaten squares within 5 feet of you when wielding a ranged weapon
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Bows) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Let's see...
DPR with Rapidshot + Deadly Aim + Manyshot: 74.88
- Can safely shoot adjacent opponents.
- Doesn't spend 5gp a shot with alchemical ammo.
That seems rather unfair for a difference of 1 feat...
Are you sure those numbers are right lemmy? that archer is outdamagin the ranger archer by like 30 points, that is a lot (and do not even have str 18).
I can't find any problems here, but I'll check it again, just in case...
That's a Ultra-specialized Fighter (with Gloves of Dueling) for you, it can out-DPR a Paladin with Smite Evil.
Note how his only non-DPR item are his armor (which is makes his AC about the same as the Rangers, despite armor training and Heavy arnir proficiency) and Cloak of Resistance (which brings his will save to a pathetic +9), now imagine this guy facing an enemy with Dominate.
Without Gloves of Dueling, his DPR would be 58.63... Still a about 15 points of DPR. Those Gloves are really powerful, and the extra feat for being human doesn't hurt either...
But to be fair... Archie's DPR against Undead (of if he casts Instant Enemy) is 91.91...
Well, the DPR coudl be higher interchanging the str and the con but I suppose you like high COn characters. If these werea character of my I woudl not have a +2 bot but just a +1 and buy a cracked pale green prism Ioun stone (saves) and I will have Iron will instead of combat reflexes (or maybe point blank master), but that is just me.?
Oh, it's not that I like high Con characters... I just intentionally gimped the archer Fighter by giving him the same attributes scores as the crossbow Fighter, just to illustrate how abysmally bad crossbows are compared to bows...
Also, I was surprised to realize that Gloves of Dueling gives this Fighter a whooping +15 points of DPR! That's huge!
Those extra small bonuses are better the more attacks you have. This is why i rearely take WF/WS for THF but for archery those are great.Also, I was surprised to realize that Gloves of Dueling gives this Fighter a whooping +15 points of DPR! That's huge!
Indeed... They are a bit too expensive for this level, IMO, but they're definitely worth buying at 11th level.
Let's compare Crossbow Chris to an equally specialized non-archetyped Fighter who uses a longbow and doesn't spend 5gp a shot when attacking...
** spoiler omitted **...
Hm, my crossbow user on the previous page approaches that with 68 DPR full atrack, 88 when hasted, and still does good damage on readied attacks. So it is nor impossible to approach those numbers.
Gloves would help even more if he could use it :-/
Let's compare Crossbow Chris to an equally specialized non-archetyped Fighter who uses a longbow and doesn't spend 5gp a shot when attacking...
** spoiler omitted **...
Hm, my crossbow user on the previous page approaches that with 68 DPR full atrack, 88 when hasted, and still does good damage on readied attacks. So it is nor impossible to approach those numbers.
Gloves would help even more if he could use it :-/
The fact that your build is two levels higher might have something to do with his higher DPR. Comparing Level 12 builds to level 10 ones kinda throws things off.
Also, since the Endless Ammunition quality requires that the (cross)bow be nocked first, you run into the problem of how you're cocking your crossbow when both your hands are full. The hand crossbow does specify that you can't cock it one-handed.
Let's compare Crossbow Chris to an equally specialized non-archetyped Fighter who uses a longbow and doesn't spend 5gp a shot when attacking...
** spoiler omitted **...
Hm, my crossbow user on the previous page approaches that with 68 DPR full atrack, 88 when hasted, and still does good damage on readied attacks. So it is nor impossible to approach those numbers.
Gloves would help even more if he could use it :-/The fact that your build is two levels higher might have something to do with his higher DPR. Comparing Level 12 builds to level 10 ones kinda throws things off.
Also, since the Endless Ammunition quality requires that the (cross)bow be nocked first, you run into the problem of how you're cocking your crossbow when both your hands are full. The hand crossbow does specify that you can't cock it one-handed.
You need to knock the CROSSBOW, not the ammunition. So there should be no problen.
12 vs 10 is valud, of course. What target AC did you use?
I mean nock, not knock. Would also be funny, though ;-)
You need to knock the CROSSBOW, not the ammunition. So there should be no problen.Let's compare Crossbow Chris to an equally specialized non-archetyped Fighter who uses a longbow and doesn't spend 5gp a shot when attacking...
** spoiler omitted **...
Hm, my crossbow user on the previous page approaches that with 68 DPR full atrack, 88 when hasted, and still does good damage on readied attacks. So it is nor impossible to approach those numbers.
Gloves would help even more if he could use it :-/The fact that your build is two levels higher might have something to do with his higher DPR. Comparing Level 12 builds to level 10 ones kinda throws things off.
Also, since the Endless Ammunition quality requires that the (cross)bow be nocked first, you run into the problem of how you're cocking your crossbow when both your hands are full. The hand crossbow does specify that you can't cock it one-handed.
I think you're missing the point. The crossbow needs to be re-cocked after every shot. That takes two hands to do, so you can't dual-wield hand-crossbows.
I think you're missing the point. The crossbow needs to be re-cocked after every shot. That takes two hands to do, so you can't dual-wield hand-crossbows.You need to knock the CROSSBOW, not the ammunition. So there should be no problen.Let's compare Crossbow Chris to an equally specialized non-archetyped Fighter who uses a longbow and doesn't spend 5gp a shot when attacking...
** spoiler omitted **...
Hm, my crossbow user on the previous page approaches that with 68 DPR full atrack, 88 when hasted, and still does good damage on readied attacks. So it is nor impossible to approach those numbers.
Gloves would help even more if he could use it :-/The fact that your build is two levels higher might have something to do with his higher DPR. Comparing Level 12 builds to level 10 ones kinda throws things off.
Also, since the Endless Ammunition quality requires that the (cross)bow be nocked first, you run into the problem of how you're cocking your crossbow when both your hands are full. The hand crossbow does specify that you can't cock it one-handed.
Is something like that in the rules? Pathfinder only seems to distinguish between "loading" and "firing". And the loading part is explicitely taken care of by EA.
Now, don't misunderstand: if you find something that this is really not allowed, it's not a real problem. I find this build thematically cool.
If EA would not at least make this kind of build possible, I really don't see the reason for a +2 cost for the special ability.
So I would then simply build it with weapon cords. I only need one swift action to "switch" in a round, so that would work. It would even increase to-hit and damage since I could make the crossbows +3 for the same price. But personally I would like to stay away from that.
By the way, I am still waiting for the AC that is supposed to be hit. I have used 27. But apparently here some use 24? What is the formula, which at level 10, which at level 12?
Just throwing this out there: I would rather have a crossbowman in my group than yet another manyshot/rapidshot machinegun archer. The iconic ranger has a crossbow, and I love him for it.
It's not all about damage folks, it's about creating a fun character who doesn't need to take out one enemy per round single handedly, all day long.
Fighter with two hatchets, ranger with crossbow, monk with quarterstaff and sai, rogue with mace, paladin without a full-plate and longsword...
Play what you think would be fun, and don't stare down on the DPR coz that way the whole world would be kinda bland, don't you think?
Not to mention that options are extremely limited in case you die and need to make a new character who is not a ccopy of the last one :p
It's not all about damage folks, it's about creating a fun character who doesn't need to take out one enemy per round single handedly, all day long.
I agree, but as the saying goes, "you can have fun playing a commoner, but that doesn't mean it's a good class".
Fun is subjective, so we can't really measure that... But we can measure mechanics and their effectiveness, so that's what we're do.
I'm not saying you shouldn't play a crossbowman even that is more fun to you, I'm merely pointing out that from a mechanical perspective, crossbows are a terrible choice.
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Are you sure those numbers are right lemmy? that archer is outdamagin the ranger archer by like 30 points, that is a lot (and do not even have str 18).
This is the point I was making in the other thread.
The difference in DPR between a fighter and a ranger isn't insignificant.
It's not only more damage per attack, it's is a higher attack bonus as well.
The difference in a 10th level build is +4 attack +6 damage with gloves of dualing and weapon specialization.
The difference in DPR between a fighter and a ranger isn't insignificant.
It's not only more damage per attack, it's is a higher attack bonus as well.
The difference in a 10th level build is +4 attack +6 damage with gloves of dualing and weapon specialization.
This is true... Although I don't think anyone ever complained about Fighters' DPR. (More than once I mentioned how a devoted Fighter can deal more damage than a Paladin using Smite Evil).
In a real game, though, I think I'd wait 11th level for Gloves of Dueling... They're fairly expensive and unlike weapons, armor and Belts of whatever-attribute, they can't be upgraded little by little...
Take Longbow Bob. He has great DPR, but his will save is a +9. Now imagine he being dominated. And he's not very well optimized either, a real archer would probably have lower Con, Int and (possibly) Wis, but higher Str.
Buying those Gloves means he couldn't raise his saves with Ioun Stones and Headbands of Wisdom, and by 10th level, will saves are extremely important.
And he still lacks out-of-combat usefulness, despite being Human and having above average Int.
That's the problem with Fighters, not their DPR or AC (which in this case, BTW, is about the same as the Ranger's).
But I digress...
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The point being that if you can do that much DPR, you can invest feats elsewhere and still be competitive with DPR.
What I think has been established here is the crossbow based non-fighters lack lots.
Crossbow based fighters aren't actually all that bad, because they can invest the feats and get bonuses to damage from areas other than strength (which they wouldn't need...)
If we can agree that an optimized Ranger level of DPR is "enough" then we can spend those extras elsewhere. Or we can just spend them on almost doubling the ranger output...which is an option.
The point being that if you can do that much DPR, you can invest feats elsewhere and still be competitive with DPR.
Eh... Sort of... Both those builds invested pretty much all they had in DPR... Note how their AC is pretty low for Fighters and their saves kinda suck. We can all see the problem with a character with high DPR and low Will save, right?
What I think has been established here is the crossbow based non-fighters lack lots.
Crossbow based fighters aren't actually all that bad, because they can invest the feats and get bonuses to damage from areas other than strength (which they wouldn't need...)
Actually, I still think they are that bad..., because DPR (and AC) is all that Fighters have, so an weapon that makes your DPR fall that much is a particularly terrible choice for Fighters, IMO.
If we can agree that an optimized Ranger level of DPR is "enough" then we can spend those extras elsewhere. Or we can just spend them on almost doubling the ranger output...which is an option.
Sure... But between Rapid Reload, Crossbow Mastery, Weapon Focus/Specialization, Precise-Shot, PBS, rapid Shot and Deadly Aim... There are not many "extras" to be invested elsewhere... Especially if they were not Human.
The archer can at least afford Iron Will...
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The crossbow fighter I had earlier had DPR in the 70's if I remember correctly.
If the goal is the high 30's to low 40's I can get there with the fighter and have enough feats for iron will or gold for something else.
If I want or need to do other things.
I do wish there were more things linked to BaB for fighters, and I think a fighter feat that is basically comparable to superstition for Barbarians makes a lot of sense.
But what I was going to demonstrate in the Ranger/Fighter thread that got derailed was that the fighter can keep pace with the ranger in DPR and have plenty of feats left over to invest in other things.
Or they can just be THE damage dealer.
You listed 8 feats. The 10th level fighter has 11. And I can drop weapon specialization and still be way ahead.
But that is guessing, math may show me wrong. It's 10EST so maybe someone will figure it out and I'll see in the AM :)
But what I was going to demonstrate in the Ranger/Fighter thread that got derailed was that the fighter can keep pace with the ranger in DPR and have plenty of feats left over to invest in other things.
Oh, Fighters can easily outDPR Rangers and Paladins... I'm sure that with a little more optimization, my archer Figher could match a Ranger against his FE.
What I'm not so sure is about their ability to invest feats to do other things... There are very few feats that increase out-of-combat utility and versatility for mundane classes, off the top of my head I can remember Skill Focus (which is not all that good if you don't have the skill ranks) and Cosmopolitan...
I'd have no problem with Fighters if they had at least 4 skill points per level and better saves... Well, actually, I'd still have problems with them, but those are problems common to all martial characters (worst offenders: terrible mobility and way too long feat chains).
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I understand now why the dwarves keep losing their fortresses. :/
It's the crossbows.
Thanks to everyone who kept smiting this undead horse; it's been educational.