I'm a new DM and DM'ing a bunch of people new to the rules
One of the level 2 half-orc barbarians with 18 strength was attacking 3 times a round while raging with claw, claw bite, doing 3 attacks at 1d6, 1d6, 1d4 damage (each +5 damage). So, if all 3 hit, it was 18-31 damage per round. At level 2. That just seemed like a lot. Are we missing something, or is that possible to do?
The druid says he has a baby roc that he says is going to grow into a full-grown roc eventually. Is that normal to just have a roc a level 2 druid?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions#TOC-Ro c
Also, my party attacked and killed a group of slave traders including a level 4 sorcerer, a level 2 ranger, and a bugbear. How much XP should I give them (they were 4 level 2s. the fight was super easy for them. I thought it would be much harder).
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Natural attacks are powerful at lower levels, because you can have many more than hitting with a manufactured weapon, but as they level they'll still be stuck with those same 3 attacks, while others will be getting more as their base attack bonuses increase.
The Roc never gets to full on Bestiary status. It will always be smaller, as limited by the Animal Companion rules.
There are rules for adjusting the CR of encounters. If the party wiped the floor with them, adjust the experience down a level, since there was obviously no challenge.
Ok, so in summary, his 3 huge attacks for huge damage are totally fine, the roc for a level 2 druid is standard, and I should find some rules telling me how much XP to give them?
First off, you'll want to correct the barbarian on his math. Raging is +4 Strength, so his damage would be +6, not +5. Also, don't worry, Amulet of Mighty Fists to buff his natural attacks is twice as expensive as magical weapons and only goes to +5 value instead of +10 overall.
The druid's Roc will eventually get to large size, which is big enough to ride, very cool. No larger, though, as per the rules page you linked:
Unfortunately for druids seeking animal companions of legendary size, an animal companion roc is limited to Large size—still large enough for a Medium druid or ranger to use the flying beast as a mount.
Assuming standard NPC treasure levels, none of the things they were fighting were that tough. The level 4 sorcerer would be the hardest thing, at a CR of 3, which is only one over your average party level (APL) of 2 right now. In other words, don't worry about it, let them have their little victory and ramp up the difficulty for them gradually later on. I recommend looking at this entry in the SRD in the future for guidelines: Designing Encounters. It's got the XP values for you're looking for and everything.
You may also want to keep the Simple Template: Advanced in mind for the future. It's really easy to apply to your monsters, just give them +2 to all d20 and damage rolls, +4 AC, and an additional 2 hit points per hit dice. Easy for you, tougher for the players.
Looks like you got everything sorted out about now but I wanted to comment on one thing:
Natural attacks are powerful at lower levels, because you can have many more than hitting with a manufactured weapon, but as they level they'll still be stuck with those same 3 attacks, while others will be getting more as their base attack bonuses increase.
I don't know if I'd count out three attacks all at full BAB and full strength. If you aren't taking two weapon fighting you're looking at level 11 base for even matching that number of attacks and your BAB for them will look like 11/6/1 as opposed to 11/11/11. Quality not quantity... though for a decent-long while you'll have both compared to everyone else.
Is there something in half-orc or barbarian that gives them natural claws and bite? I couldn't find anything in quick search. Seems very odd. Normaly PC get one unarmed attack (that really sucks).
Lesser Beast Totem and Animal Fury rage powers. Though if the barb is using Animal Fury, his bite on a full attack (i.e., using his claws and bite) is at a -5 and only deals 1/2 Str, not full Str.
EDIT: Most likely, this character gave up Orc Ferocity for Toothy, which is 1d4 piercing bite attack as a primary natural attack. Which would combine for 2 claws and 1 bite all at full BAB and Str.
A barbarian depending on Rage Powers can get more natural attacks. I also believe their is a half-orc feat that gets them the bite. Though I thought it was tusks if memory severed right might be ether.
In any case I wanted to bring this up because I didn't see if anyone asked. Does he have Multiattack, or two weapon fighting?
Table: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties
Circumstances Primary Hand Off Hand
Normal penalties –6 –10
Off-hand weapon is light –4 –8
Two-Weapon Fighting feat –4 –4
Off-hand weapon is light and Two-Weapon Fighting feat –2 –2
Natural attacks are considered Light, but even so if he's only Lv 3 with 18 str that means his attacks should be. +3 to each attack to hit. Also unless he has Double Slice he doesn't add his strength to attacks with his off hand.
Now the feat Multi-attack would work.
Multiattack (Monster)
This creature is particularly skilled at making attacks with its natural weapons.
Prerequisite: Three or more natural attacks.
Benefit: The creature's secondary attacks with natural weapons take only a –2 penalty.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature's secondary attacks with natural weapons take a –5 penalty.
Also this is something some new players miss so sometimes it's not brought up. To get multiple attacks with TWF or Multi-attack or with the +6/+1 AB chart that is a full round attack. Meaning one can't charge and get those three attacks out from them. I know their are ways around that, but I'm pretty sure Barbians don't have any pounce like rage powers.
So if you want to keep him from getting more then one attack off. After he Charges you can have the enemy five foot step away and shoot a crossbow bolt at him or something.
Honestly though if you find him just Stomping your encounters with his set-up their are a few monsters that will make him cry at the proper CR. Let's see. We could have him encounter this.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/oozes/ooze-gray
It's acid power would deal 1d6 acid damage to him unless he makes a reflex save and he would have to do that on every attack.
Also anything with DR might help like a few low level Werewolves.
Also a grappling monster might be good also. Like a Shambling Mound.
Just a few suggestions.
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Natural attacks are considered Light, but even so if he's only Lv 3 with 18 str that means his attacks should be. +3 to each attack to hit. Also unless he has Double Slice he doesn't add his strength to attacks with his off hand.
Careful. Natural attacks are not considered light weapons. You can use Weapon Finesse to apply your Dexterity modifier to attack rolls, but that's where the similarity ends. Natural attacks also benefit from Power Attack. Primary natural attacks, of which claws and bites usually are, get full Strength mod to damage.
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And because they are natural attacks, they get nerfed hard if he ever picks up a weapons, as they all become secondary attacks. Meaning he is going to have a hard time with DR.
The orc is probably legit, but the orc is also burning pretty much everything he has to get there.
But I think we would all have to see the feat list and/or build to audit it for you.
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So looking at it, if the Half orc has an 18 strength and took Beast totem lesser at 2nd and toothy, they should have two claws at 1d6 +6 and a bite at 1d4 +6 (all are primary.
So average damage is 27.5. That is a lot, but...
When he isn't raging, he doesn't have his claws. Enhancing his claws and teeth will cost twice as much as everyone else will have to pay to enhance the weapons they have, and as a result he is going to have trouble with DR.
And he lost orc ferocity, which considering Barbarians lose the temporary con coming out of rage is a real loss.
If he was swinging a greatsword, with power attack he would have an average damage of 19.
Is he dominant at 2nd level? Yes. But that really is his sweet spot level.
No claws while raging? that's not how we were playing...
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Natural attacks are powerful at lower levels, because you can have many more than hitting with a manufactured weapon, but as they level they'll still be stuck with those same 3 attacks, while others will be getting more as their base attack bonuses increase.I don't know if I'd count out three attacks all at full BAB and full strength. If you aren't taking two weapon fighting you're looking at level 11 base for even matching that number of attacks and your BAB for them will look like 11/6/1 as opposed to 11/11/11. Quality not quantity... though for a decent-long while you'll have both compared to everyone else.
*sheepish grin*
My 12th level Tengu Rogue in PFS can dish out a lot of damage when conditions are right. Having claws that deal 1d3 of damage doesn't matter when you're adding 6d6 Sneak Attack to each.
I guess I just imagine that a Barbarian does better Vital Striking a two-handed weapon with a 30 Str for 50% more damage on each hit. When you have mobile enemies, or you have to move to get to them, one big smack will always beat out 3 smaller ones.
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No claws while raging? that's not how we were playing...
"Beast Totem, Lesser (Su): While raging, the barbarian gains two claw attacks. These attacks are considered primary attacks and are made at the barbarian's full base attack bonus. The claws deal 1d6 points of slashing damage (1d4 if Small) plus the barbarian's Strength modifier."
Ok, cool, thanks.
So, for XP:
Bugbear: 600xp
lvl 2 Ranger: 600xp
lvl 4 Sorcerer: 800xp
= 2,000 xp total, or 500xp each
Is that about right?
Saving slaves = 0 xp (they died in the aftermath of the battle, so no story XP for saving the slaves).
Even after reading all the answers, still no real idea on how to calculate the XP.
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Ok, cool, thanks.
So, for XP:
Bugbear: 600xp
lvl 2 Ranger: 600xp
lvl 4 Sorcerer: 800xp= 2,000 xp total, or 500xp each
Encounter design and XP is a bit tricky at first, so don't worry that you're having some trouble with it. The main rules you'll need are here. With standard assumptions, you'll have:
400 XP for the Lvl 2 Ranger (= CR 1)
600 XP for the Bugbear (= CR 2)
800 XP for the Lvl 4 Sorcerer (= CR 3)
= 1,800 XP total, or 450 each for a 4-PC party
This assumes that the NPC enemies have gear according to the NPC gear table in the "Creating NPCs" chapter. But NPC CR varies depending on gear. For an NPC with PC class levels: (i) if the NPC has gear according to the table, her CR = level - 1; (ii) if the NPC has no gear, her CR = level -2; (iii) if the NPC has PC-equivalent gear (which is more than standard NPC gear), her CR = level.
Looks like you got everything sorted out about now but I wanted to comment on one thing:
Natural attacks are powerful at lower levels, because you can have many more than hitting with a manufactured weapon, but as they level they'll still be stuck with those same 3 attacks, while others will be getting more as their base attack bonuses increase.I don't know if I'd count out three attacks all at full BAB and full strength. If you aren't taking two weapon fighting you're looking at level 11 base for even matching that number of attacks and your BAB for them will look like 11/6/1 as opposed to 11/11/11. Quality not quantity... though for a decent-long while you'll have both compared to everyone else.
The other side of that is your hit more by any material/type DR when they pop up. DR 10/silver will stop this character dead in its tracks. Amulet of Mighty Fists (AMoF) is actually somewhat of a bargain for anyone with more than 2 natural attacks, but the character will always have to upgrade 'all at once' where a TWF (two weapon fighter) has the option of upgrading one at a time if needed.
If he is not using any manufactured weapons, he has no reason to be taking TWF, as TWF has nothing to do with natural attacks. If you have 3 primary attacks, all 3 attacks hit at your full bonus, there is no subtraction from it.
Why I pointed out Multi-Attack. Multi-Attack is still needed for natural attacks otherwise you suffer the penalties. As I said before. Direct copy from the PDF
This creature is particularly skilled at making attacks with its natural weapons.
Prerequisite: Three or more natural attacks.
Benefit: The creature's secondary attacks with natural weapons take only a –2 penalty.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature's secondary attacks with natural weapons take a –5 penalty.
You still take penalties when making more then one natural attack. Just not as big with TWF. I was merely laying out all the options for it and that he should understand that.
As for the five foot step. I apoligize. I did mean move back a full 30 feet or so then shoot him with a crossbow. If the enemy doesn't have more then one attack at this point then he has no reason to only take a five foot step. The problem of course is the Attack of Oppiritny, but he's still getting one less attack then.
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@Archane The dissonance here seems to be the perception that Natural Attacks past the first are "secondary". Natural Attacks are organized into two groups: Primary and Secondary. Each type of Natural Attack is designated as one or the other and that will only change if the creature uses a manufactured weapon. So the Orc with two claw attacks and a bite attack (all specified as Primary by their descriptions) uses his full BAB and full Strength bonus when employing them. There are a ton of threads and FAQs on Natural Attacks and many of us struggle with them here and there even after we've become familiar. If you're really curious start reading up here or go to the section in your core rule book. Or, you know, one of the many many many threads. :)
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Why I pointed out Multi-Attack. Multi-Attack is still needed for natural attacks otherwise you suffer the penalties. As I said before. Direct copy from the PDF
This creature is particularly skilled at making attacks with its natural weapons.
Prerequisite: Three or more natural attacks.
Benefit: The creature's secondary attacks with natural weapons take only a –2 penalty.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature's secondary attacks with natural weapons take a –5 penalty.
You still take penalties when making more then one natural attack. Just not as big with TWF. I was merely laying out all the options for it and that he should understand that.
As for the five foot step. I apoligize. I did mean move back a full 30 feet or so then shoot him with a crossbow. If the enemy doesn't have more then one attack at this point then he has no reason to only take a five foot step. The problem of course is the Attack of Oppiritny, but he's still getting one less attack then.
You are reading it wrong. Claws and Bite are both primary natural attacks and take no penalties on a full attack sequence. Multiattack is for creatures with secondary natural attacks like tentacles, hoofs, pincers, and tail slaps
-clicks tongue-
Well... I just learned something new. Kinda seems stupid, I always just read primary natural attacks = main hand and then the other attacks are secondary...Seems right to me, but hey, who am I to argue with the designers of the game...
Archane, regarding primary and secondary attacks, 3.5 worked more or less like you describe. Primary was the first attack type listed in a statblock while secondary was the second attack type listed in a statblock.
Example: if I have a bite followed by 2 claws the bite would be primary and the claws secondary.
Example2: if I have 2 claws followed by a bite the claws would be primary while the bite was secondary.
PF changed it so that specific types were primary or secondary regardless of the listed order.
- Gauss
@Archane
Don't worry too much about it bro...believe me when I say you are not the first to see it that way because of 3.0 or 3.5
I currently play with someone that will get into game stopping arguments with me or the GM over something that he just KNOWS works that way...only to have me show him the correct info in the book or on my tablet and he always ends the fight with "oh...well that's how it worked in 3.5"