Goblin Squad Member
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... If you are looking for a game that is more realistic or looks different than what you see in Paizo's books, then Pathfinder Online isn't going to be for you. If you want a gritty fantasy world with some amazing fantasy graphics, then you will love what we are doing.
-Lisa
See, the thing was that she spoke to the person's concerns, but left the door open. She basically said, "If this is really a deal breaker for you, sorry, but we're not changing what we've been doing. But if you're willing to try the game, you might like what you see."
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Goblin Squad Member
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I dont remember saying it was directly related to PVP. But it was a "this is what is planned for the game" type of response. In fact I think Ryans was about the Classless system from a year ago.
Lisa´s quote was directly tailored towards the look of the game.
so when you say
"This is not a game for you" has come from Ryan and Lisa. Granted they tell us to limit it and not run people off to quickly. Simply put if someone has a general fear of PVP, it applies.
then that is simply false.
And to repead myself ad nauseum,it is not the players job to tell people off!
If you do, you are doing this community and the future of the game a disservice, damnit!
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Xeen
Sigh. I guess you just don't get it. I will speak on it no further as there is little use.
@Bluddwolf
If it takes 8 bandits for a proper gank on a traveler, then that is what it takes. Economy of forces is about using what you need to do what you want, and not much else. Too much force is a waste of resources and a commitment when it could be better saved or directed elsewhere.
The comment was about using a nuke to win against a musket man. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I dont remember saying it was directly related to PVP. But it was a "this is what is planned for the game" type of response. In fact I think Ryans was about the Classless system from a year ago.Lisa´s quote was directly tailored towards the look of the game.
so when you say
"This is not a game for you" has come from Ryan and Lisa. Granted they tell us to limit it and not run people off to quickly. Simply put if someone has a general fear of PVP, it applies.then that is simply false.
And to repead myself ad nauseum,it is not the players job to tell people off!
If you do, you are doing this community and the future of the game a disservice, damnit!
I said it applies, I didnt say that they (Lisa or Ryan) were referring to PVP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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See, the thing was that she spoke to the person's concerns, but left the door open. She basically said, "If this is really a deal breaker for you, sorry, but we're not changing what we've been doing. But if you're willing to try the game, you might like what you see."... If you are looking for a game that is more realistic or looks different than what you see in Paizo's books, then Pathfinder Online isn't going to be for you. If you want a gritty fantasy world with some amazing fantasy graphics, then you will love what we are doing.
-Lisa
And its a Sandbox Open World PVP game. I dont think they are changing that either. Which is why I say it applies. I may not be as gifted as her in saying it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Xeen: so, to get this straight.
The owner of a restaurant says, i`m sorry if you don`t like what you think our decor is like, but if i come inside to have a look for yourself you are welcome, otherwise we are sorry, you will not enjoy your stay.
unlike that, you as another guest, take up the role of the bouncer go to the door and say: Oy! you waer the wrong shoes! you don`t need to look around, you won´t fit here anyway, go somewhere else.
if that is how you want to see yourself...
yeah, bringslite is right, why bother talking to you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Xeen: so, to get this straight.
The owner of a restaurant says, i`m sorry if you don`t like what you think our decor is like, but if i come inside to have a look for yourself you are welcome, otherwise we are sorry, you will not enjoy your stay.
unlike that, you as another guest, take up the role of the bouncer and say: Oy! you waer the wrong shoes! you don´t fit here, go somewhere else.
if that is how you want to see yourself...
yeah, bringslite is right, why bother talking to you.
Whats your point? We have opposite opinions. I dont think people who despise PVP will like the game.
I guess I could go with "Come in and try it out. You will be killed every now and again, but pay no attention."
But your right, I should stop responding to your posts... Maybe save some space.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that some of us are just frustrated when people get chased away with negative feedback to questions.
I realize that it is equally frustrating to try and convince someone (who dislikes PVP) to try PfO. Especially over and over and over as they pop out every couple of weeks. We do have time for such endeavors, though.
If some people don't feel it is bad policy to be blunt, without explanation, then that is how they feel. Maybe it is time to just drop it?
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Goblin Squad Member
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My point is, give you them the tools to make their own jugdement.
either they will be intrigued by the idea for the game, or not.
If you can`t do this, or don`t want to, leave it to the people who will.
If you are unable to do this, read the rule below the Submit Post button again.
Btw, that isn`t directed to you alone, i´m saying this to bludd s well.
-What id your point?
isn`t the UC about freedom?
why deny people the freedom to build or change an opinion for themselfs?
what is the point?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, it is time to drop it. And just to note, the guy was gone before I ever responded...
Actually Gedichtewicht, nothing below or beside the submit post say anything that you are arguing about.
And I looked at what you posted with Bludd... Most of it was a bit off.
The guy only wanted a PVE server or it was a deal breaker for him.
SO let me inform you a bit.
PVP on 1 server
He kinda ran himself off and nothing you would have or could have done will change it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Have we seen anything that says that the Outlaw can demand goods, or is it just money/coin? I've read through that blog entry and the related thread and saw no clarification from GW reps.
AFAIK, the SAD allows you to request money only. I don't remember seeing anything official mentioning anything but money.
It is unclear exactly what limits there are to how much the bandit can request. Mr. Dancey said somewhere that it could be a problem if they request 1000000 gold all the time just so they can kill without reputation loss.
Can't be bothered to find the relevant quotes right now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Xeen: It's not correct to make other people's minds up for them. Most people who are very averse to pvp probably won't consider it worth trying PFO, certainly initially. But if someone pops in the forum and asks - they might be the small proportion that find a non adversarial niche in the game or even completely change their stance on pvp for whatever reasons. If someone comes in sounding off about the iniquities of open pvp in mmorpgs, that's another matter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Have we seen anything that says that the Outlaw can demand goods, or is it just money/coin? I've read through that blog entry and the related thread and saw no clarification from GW reps.AFAIK, the SAD allows you to request money only. I don't remember seeing anything official mentioning anything but money.
It is unclear exactly what limits there are to how much the bandit can request. Mr. Dancey said somewhere that it could be a problem if they request 1000000 gold all the time just so they can kill without reputation loss.
Can't be bothered to find the relevant quotes right now.
That could be very problematic, as we carry all of our gold as an abstract item. Even 1% of a total "pouch" could make a bandit's week, with the right target. A set amount would become meaningless, to some, as wealth levels grow later in the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, asking for a percentage is not going to work out well IMO. It must certainly work by asking for some certain amount of money. The bandit must have some way of influencing how much is to be asked for as well, with some restrictions.
Skill training for both mugger and target that sets the limits of a slider the bandit uses when selecting the SAD?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Xeen: It's not correct to make other people's minds up for them. Most people who are very averse to pvp probably won't consider it worth trying PFO, certainly initially. But if someone pops in the forum and asks - they might be the small proportion that find a non adversarial niche in the game or even completely change their stance on pvp for whatever reasons. If someone comes in sounding off about the iniquities of open pvp in mmorpgs, that's another matter.
I did not respond to the guy at all... My posts started two days later... I did not make anyones mind up for them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They way I understood SAD, and could very well be wrong, is that it may be a set amount based on a percentage. Not just of gold, but all available assets.
It may also be based on a search check by the SAD initiator.
It will be a tricky balance. Bandit's choice could lead to the 1 mil gold SAD. Percentage is ify because even at 1% it will wreck someone quickly. Set amounts for the bandit to choose from are too much at the start and too little later.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Agreed there, the only way it could be balanced is a percentage. Sure it could wreck someone, but a choice amount can be a sure fight tactic.
Its the only reason I agree with the percentage. You cannot have it all but you can take some... Or else it will be a "what dropped" roll.
Granted a search check may not show everything. I dont know...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ok, it's flogging the horse after it's bolted, but I don't think brandishing "It's a pvp game" ie it's an ultra competitive game for all players is right way to send out a message about the game, though it will allow a lot of player freedom eg open pvp. If I create a character that specialising in building, I'm like a queen termite sitting in my nest churning out goods/workers for the colony (hopefully ordering lots of ice-cream too!) - whereas the soldier ants all waving sharp manibles and stingers - I think that's the impression the above gives and why it sounds off to me?! If there are other classes of ant/termite, that specialise idk in growing fungae then it's worth sending that message out too - with the caveat that an invading army of red ants will likely rip you to pieces should they breach the termite's outer defences... :)
edit: Just to be sure, if the above is too flippant: I honestly hope to see PFO have multitude of roles - as many cooperative as competitive. Equally EVE's high sec. is talked about as containing a large number who never leave: If players in PFO can create hexes with their strong laws and protection effectively malleable high sec and perhaps in bands of alliances across sections of the map, I can see that being a high safety area - in time. Starting to think I'm true neutral...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Money only will not really work. A guy could be carrying massive quantities of resources and no money at all. If I SAD him, and either a percentage, I pick, or I roll search, comes up with no profit... There will be no point in SAD and I will just stop using it. At that point, just outright killing him for a chance at what drops will be profitable.
It will need to include items, resources, money, and whatever else.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I honestly hope to see PFO have multitude of roles - as many cooperative as competitive. Equally EVE's high sec. is talked about as containing a large number who never leave: If players in PFO can create hexes with their strong laws and protection effectively malleable high sec and perhaps in bands of alliances across sections of the map, I can see that being a high safety area - in time. Starting to think I'm true neutral...
I agree, there needs to be a multitude of roles, and there will be. Although, even in Eve high sec there is plenty of fighting. Either through theft, wars, ganking, whatever... Nothing is completely safe. Even a Player settlement that was able to create a safe area, it will only be so safe. I can be honest and say, I will search out those areas to thrive in. Pick out targets carefully and profit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Xeen, since money is on a 'magical bank account', the result of a successful SAD is that the target transfers some of his money to the 'account' of the bandit.
Since you don't 'carry' your money (you just have it) the 'I forgot my wallet at home' argument won't stick.
If the target owns no money, it can't accept the SAD. This results in freedom for the bandit to kill and loot the target for a portion of the goods that were carried (without REP loss).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Xeen, since money is on a 'magical bank account', the result of a successful SAD is that the target transfers some of his money to the 'account' of the bandit.
Since you don't 'carry' your money (you just have it) the 'I forgot my wallet at home' argument won't stick.
If the target owns no money, it can't accept the SAD. This results in freedom for the bandit to kill and loot the target for a portion of the goods that were carried (without REP loss).
Your right overall... If thats the case though, An alt will hold all my money, and Im sure everyone else will do the same. So in essence, I forgot my wallet at home will work in a sense lol.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The SAD is a way for the target to avoid getting killed, thus losing all his stuff.
He never has to accept an SAD if he doesn't want to. It is being offered to him. He gets to choose between spending a little money of having to fight for his life. Any smart person will want to make sure they have at least enough money to get out of a few SADs.
The alt strategy you mention is one good reason why the SAD should be for a fixed sum and not a percentage of the targets total riches.
I don't believe there is any system described that causes a person to involuntarily have money 'withdrawn' from their 'magic account' so as of now, I see no reason why alt bankers would be needed.
GW seem to be very much on top of things when it comes to how the game can be 'gamed'. For example, they recognize that they won't be able to prevent multiboxing and therefore will allow people to play alts on the same machine, creating a level playfield (as much as possible).
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Xeen
Sigh. I guess you just don't get it. I will speak on it no further as there is little use.
@Bluddwolf
If it takes 8 bandits for a proper gank on a traveler, then that is what it takes. Economy of forces is about using what you need to do what you want, and not much else. Too much force is a waste of resources and a commitment when it could be better saved or directed elsewhere.
The comment was about using a nuke to win against a musket man. :)
I think I said some where it was a bit exaggerated, but the nuke vs musket
Was used to make the point that overwhelming force is considered desirable over economy of force.Using an economy of force comes awful close to using almost enough force. I simply ask, why settle for economy when you have overwhelming at your disposal?
Having overwhelming force available at the time of contact adds that intimidation factor, it shatters all hope and eliminates the chance that luck can play a role. To steal from the Borg,,,,, Resistsnce is Futile. To be able to honestly say that is the greatest military achievement on the battlefield.
Economy of force is fighting a fair fight, and I'm not looking to do that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But after reading through these threads, I did get a general gut feeling from several posters that they were trying to convey that this game really be no different from any WOW clone that we have seen over the last decade.
This is what's weak. You make a blanket accusation without referencing any specific posts, and then - naturally - retreat from it when you're called on it.
Deliberately misrepresenting our arguments to make them appear silly - "you obviously want a WoW Clone!" - makes it look like such a silly argument is the only argument you have the intellectual chops to counter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is plenty of people who have problems with PVP. Some say...
I will just attack
I will try to destroy my stuff
You will have no skills
etc etcSure, play that way if you want to. You will get griefed from then on.
First off, are you going to wimp out like Valtorious and pretend you weren't actually talking about me when you referenced "I will just attack"?
"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."
I will always resist attempts to steal from me.
It doesn't take that much effort to see that I made that statement in direct reply to you earlier in this same thread.
So now let's look at what you're actually saying:
Nihimon has a "problem with PvP" because he will "always attack" me when I try to steal his stuff. As a result of his actions, he "will get griefed from then on".
Utterly pathetic, and I hope it's obvious enough that everyone else sees it as clearly as I do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ All, I would like to steer this discussion towards the issue of ganking and ask how it might be received by the community in general?
For this discussion I will be using my definition, but you are encouraged to disagree with it and replace it with your own stated definition.
Ganking: The use of superior force or numbers to shift the risk vs. reward dynamic to a more favorable advantage. In military conflict no leader looks to fight a fair fight, to plan for such a thing is a sign of poor leadership.
I have often read on these forums the use of the term ganking as a replacement for griefing or being placed into the same category as griefing. I obviously disagree with that comparison, but I pose this question,
Should gankers expect to be treated the same as griefes by the PFO community?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bluddwolf, I am not aware of any regular poster who is opposed to "ganking" according to your definition.
I think when people oppose "ganking", they're using the term to represent a powerful character killing radically weaker characters who don't stand a chance, and doing it "for the lulz". By that definition, it is griefing, and you can expect them to be treated accordingly.
When there's a legitimate reason to fight, you'd be a fool not to use every advantage you can muster.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bluddwolf,
Ganking the way you define it (gang killing?) must surely be totally legit in principle. Some may say it's cowardly but that is another discussion.
The term 'ganking' has taken on different meanings for different players. It is sometimes used as a synonym to 'random player killing' or 'abusive PvP attacks'. I have seen it used to describe a 'zerg' of PvPers roaming the map killing everything that moves.
I'd say the term, because of these very different connotations, is likely to create confusion, conflict and hurt feelings.