Obviously not, if an animal has a feat, that is not something you normally receive when you wildshape into said animal. (Unless you had the feat yourself beforehand, of course). If you want to use Strawman Fallacies to call me out, at least use one that I don't agree with.
On the second point, I'd like to quote the oft unattributed "So called Common Sense is often neither Common nor Sensical". But 2 points here:
1. I make no assumptions as to what the Devs are thinking. Can you read their minds? I can only see what they have put to paper. And interpret that based strictly on the words there.
2. There already are Monsters that break the Universal monster rules (see T-Rex example listed above), so this is a case of Specific Trouncing General.
3. If it doesn't mention damage (devastating is just a descriptive word that can apply equally well to the crit range), then it doesn't apply to damage. There is no wilfully here, I am looking at the description and following the rules.
Anyway, the discussion has gotten a bit heated. I do not appreciate the "lack of common sense" accusation levelled, and so I shall not engage you further in argument until the tone becomes more civil, good day, sir.
prototype00
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| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
The way it is worded the devastating does apply to damage not critical range, unfortunately by RAW it is unclear. I would not agree that a damage that far off is not enhanced by something else. There are a lot of creatures that do not follow the guidelines for damage exactly but they are always within 1 size category or have an ability that enhances them. The language used states 2 things:
1. Critical range is enhanced.
and
2. damage is devastating piercing and slashing.
Examples such as the T-rex (exactly 1 size category off only one attack so damage is expected to be slightly larger and still be reasonably close) or Remorhaz (additional damage and fire on top of that which is also not copied by any polymorph effect). The table is sited in its own text as being a guideline to damage, not the absolute truth about everything. However that does not mean you can ignore something that is clearly as far outside of the guidelines as the Carnivorous Crystal with an ability that mentions its enhanced damage and just say it isn't specific enough to actually not enhance its damage. You are trying to ignore a rule that exists by saying well it might not mean that.
In this case the only sane thing is to FAQ it and move on, the damage is clearly well outside the guidelines and it has an ability that states its damage is well outside the guidelines. May need to be reworded to lessen confusion but I believe that at worst the rule applies to its damage and the wording just needs to be cleared up.
Stating that just because it does't point out exactly how much it increases it simply to justify not losing the damage in a wild shape build is the real straw man here.
So slight impasse here, I realize. You guys think that there is a problem with the damage that this creature puts out and think an entry is what is causing it, I personally see no evidence for it.
However, if this is a rules issue that you want faq'ed, please move it to the rules forum as I didn't originally set up this thread as a rules debate about an entry in Beastiary 3.
Much obliged.
prototype00
A lot of misinterpreting of polymorph rules here when there's ample evidence and a implicit understanding that the general community has of polymorph. The only thing he has to worry about is being blind but that's just likely an oversight in designing the archetype. That's a common problem but nothing to fuss over, I'd like to think most DMs would grant blindsight with the range of blindsense in beast shape III and IV.
As for the slams, he will be doing 7d8 per the monster description while doing bludgeoning damage and threatening on a Nat 20.
Race: Half-Elf?
What you get instead of being human: Being both human and elf, Immunity to sleep.
A lot of misinterpreting of polymorph rules here when there's ample evidence and a implicit understanding that the general community has of polymorph. The only thing he has to worry about is being blind but that's just likely an oversight in designing the archetype. That's a common problem but nothing to fuss over, I'd like to think most DMs would grant blindsight with the range of blindsense in beast shape III and IV.
Personally I'd be happy just having regular vision. As stated upthread, a lot of plant types don't have eyes but when you're wildshaped into them, you can see fine.
And the ooze Wildshape replaces plant wildshape, so I'd expect it'd work the same, especially since RAW you lose the blind trait when you wildshape.
Race: Half-Elf?
What you get instead of being human: Being both human and elf, Immunity to sleep.
This concept is super race agnostic, just whatever gets you to lvl 10 should work.
prototype00
Hey Ohako, I managed to figure out how to take Greater Vital Strike, 20th level take a level in fighter, bonus combat feat grants you access.
This might be the most damaging build I've ever made, PFS legal and everything. What a monster.
384 guaranteed damage, + other bonuses at 20th level easily exceeds 400 damage. Time to one shot Balors, Yeehaw!
prototype00
Hey Ohako,
By all means, that would be excellent!
However curious, what is with the picks of follow up and step up and strike and the lot?
prototype00
Edit: I'd also be inclined to take swift foot three times just for the 15ft extra to speed to close.
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So thanks to this community for the kind reception for my"Way of the Angry Bear" Mnk/Drd build which is the best way to get to 12d8 unarmed strike damage by 20th leve...
What? Oh another way to get to 12d8... wait a minute, say that again?!
By 10th level?! What kind of unholy shenanigans do you have to pull... uh huh, Cave Druid Archetype and Monk, really? Well I guess that is legit.
So yes, ladies and germs, I present the conquerer Ooze. Haven't got a build hashed out yet, but the specifics are as follow.
1. Cave druids can shapeshift into oozes at lvl 10 (medium and small) and lvl 12 (tiny and large)
2. There is a medium ooze out there that does 7d8 damage (and depending on how you read the entry line also has a crit range of 18-20, but you might not get that as it depends on an entry). Pathfinder Core too (Beastiary 3). The Carnivorous Crystal ooze
3. Strong Jaw on 7d8 (conservatively thinking of 7d8 as 6d8) goes to 12d8.
4. Weapon Focus (slam) and Feral Combat training (Slam) means you can use this attack for every hit of a flurry of blows.
5. Profit?
Cons (as they are):
You might not get the gnarly crit range. (Though what do people think?)
As written, when shapeshifted into an ooze, Cave druids are blind, they lose their native modes of vision and don't get ooze blindsight from wildshape.
No natural armor bonus. Bummer.
But 12d8 for 4 attacks at lvl 10? Priceless.
So what do people think? Discuss.
prototype00
This is a really cool find, but I personally think the Cons outweigh the Pros. Damage is nice and all, but it makes a class boring if that's all they focus on. Personally I like your original concept of the Monk/Druid and I plan on really sticking with it.
This build has great potential for ridiculous damage, but it loses variety in Wildshaping, Natural Armor bonus, being Blind can be a hassle even with spells to have to rely on, etc. It feels very bland, and weaker in the fact that you're "squishy" and don't get the bonuses, with their miniscule detriments, from size(+-str/+-dex/+-con/fly/etc). Pun intended.
It does make me think of The Blob(old) though, and that gives me a good chuckle. Although, meh.
You have my thoughts, enjoy :3
This build has great potential for ridiculous damage, but it loses variety in Wildshaping, Natural Armor bonus, being Blind can be a hassle even with spells to have to rely on, etc. It feels very bland, and weaker in the fact that you're "squishy" and don't get the bonuses, with their miniscule detriments, from size(+-str/+-dex/+-con/fly/etc). Pun intended.
All quite true.
Though the blind thing isn't necessarily the case, Blind is a EX ability *grants you immunity to gaze attacks, illusions and other attack forms based on sight* which wildshaped cave druids don't get. So they must actually have sight, otherwise they would be immune to all the listed effects above..
It also doesn't say anywhere that oozes don't have eyes, so I can imagine a pair of them floating in the slime (to be affected by all the above conditions). Its a fair sight fairer than automatic blindsight and follows the RAW as well.
The other stuff, quite true, +4 to str is all you'll get. No nat AC or DR, so you are vulnerable. Guess you'll have to kill everything in one hit, won't you?
Not defending it, mind, as you say, built for damage and little else. (And so had to give up on a couple of aesthetic points).
personal preference.1. You close with a bad guy, doing 24d8 damage. Somehow, he's still up.
2. The bad guy can either try and kill you with a full attack (if he's capable of doing that) or running away.
3. If he tries to run away, you nail him again. If he tries to withdraw, you can follow.I know that no escape is generally a terrible rage power. I think I like sprint better than swift foot twice, because swift foot twice would only be good if you couldn't charge. By the time you can even get sprint with this build, you're probably flying anyway, which makes charging easier.
I don't mind the following the bad guy angle you're going for here, its not a bad choice, but a point I'd like to make is after getting furious focus, this character cannot charge.
Basically every time you have a move and a standard and a single foe, the best thing to do is to move up and vital strike them for terrible, terrible damage. Hence, charging makes no sense for me which is why I picked the swift foot rage power, just to make up for the oozes terrible movement rate, to allow them to close and deal the hit.
Can you think of/find a Small or Medium animal with a slam attack? Otherwise the earliest you can use the feats at 3 and 5 is level 9, when I think you can wild shape into a gorilla.
Dolphin? Flipper is of limited use though.
Weapon Focus might actually be a bit of a stretch, because it requires proficiency with the weapon (slam), and druid are only proficient with natural weapons once they can wild shape into the creature in question. I think that Weapon Focus and Feral Combat Training should be 17 and 19, actually.
That's news to me, isn't it the case that Druids are proficient in all natural weapons of the forms they can WS into? Or is this a RAW thing where they can't technically WS into a form yet?
The iterative attack/flurry thing is more for crowd control really, against a single large target, or indeed a few tougher foes, the vital strike option (hah! I know people are choking on that as I speak, Vital strike, a good option?!!) is the best one. So delaying feral combat training is an option, if a shame.
prototype00
Yep, 45 before magic, you also get a climb speed which is nifty.
Note: Echolocation is a 10min/lvl personal spell, so it qualifies for the Ring of continuation. A nice way to cut down on spell slots used if you need blindsight for whatever reason.
prototype00
Awesome build, I think this would shine the most und Gestalt rules.
Awesome build, I think this would shine the most und Gestalt rules.
I actually think it does just fine, though obviously much better starting from when you can transform into an ooze, the Tweens are a bit dicey (no WS until 6th level, basically just a caster druid)
prototype00
A couple of suggestions on feats:
Devastating Strike is not a bad feat to take (+6 extra damage, I'm not complaining).
And Death or Glory while usually suicide for most builds is just extra damage for you (+6 to hit, +6 to damage, and the red mist doesn't get to counterattack). (Though you will need to get power attack).
I'd make a point of saying that 7d8 -> 12d8 is thinking conservatively since the usual progression is 6d8 -> 12d8.
Also Deliquescent Gloves for all your ooze petting needs, (also makes your natural attacks acidic).
Finally, a small mistake, its not 28d8 when greater vital striking but 48d8 (on the last page).
But really good, I like the build otherwise!
prototype00
Edit: Also Galeena from Mount Zogon, good homage, I like it!
Hmm, I think it is a good idea to have a flurry of blows at 12d8 as well as a full round attack backed by death or glory. The flurry can be for multiple enemies, whereas the full round attack can be for when the big bad has closed.
The builds major limitation is the comparatively short duration of the strong jaw spell and the limited number of castings. Investing in a decent Wis boosting item as well as pearls of power is probably the way forward (and a metamagic extending wand).
The other option is to play a Samsaran and poach the 3rd lvl strong jaw spell from the ranger, and when not in use, place the effect in a Reservoir Tattoo.
On the subject of races, the Oread is interesting for its +2 str and Wis and of course the theme of stone fits well with a crystalline engine of destruction.
prototype00
There should be theme music every time he manages to splatter an enemy with death or glory.:)
Truthfully Ohako put in the lions share in build creation. I just came up with the original concept.
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If you are worried about losing the benefit of str from rage/wild shape just focus on str, you lose a little ac but gain a lot more accuracy for you main attack.
Plus at lower levels high str + shillelagh works great.
Not sure Flurry is worth much with vital strike in the mix so consider something like
Tiefling (Onispawn) Druid 8, Barb 8 take Vital Strike chain, Furious Finish, the internal fortitude power and the flawed scarlet and green cabochon. By 16th you can rage cycle and just furious finish every round.
Before that you can just melee/self buff as needed, once you hit 13 you will have the pieces in place.
If you don't want to wait grab Druid 8 fighter 1 barb 2 and by 11th you can have vital strike, furious finish, shaping focus and natural spell plus AC wise you can have Wild Dragonhide Fullplate with no problem.
That works too, the martial artist/barbarian combination is more equipment agnostic (I find that GMs will clamp down on items before they clamp down on classes fi they don't like a build), and has a bit of crowd control as well, which I always find useful (and they can use the furious finish trick from lvl 13 as well, so nothing lost there).
prototype00
Hmm, just wondering, the Reckless Abandon Rage power allows you to trade AC for accuracy while raging, which might be really, really helpful for endgame accuracy.
Couple of queries though:
1. When it says that the AC penalty and the attack bonus increase every 4 levels, is that 4 levels of any class, or do you have to be a barbarian?
2. What happens to the bonus (and the penalties) when you stop raging, do they go away?
prototype00
Hmm, just wondering, the Reckless Abandon Rage power allows you to trade AC for accuracy while raging, which might be really, really helpful for endgame accuracy.
Couple of queries though:
1. When it says that the AC penalty and the attack bonus increase every 4 levels, is that 4 levels of any class, or do you have to be a barbarian?
2. What happens to the bonus (and the penalties) when you stop raging, do they go away?
prototype00
Unless a class ability specifically states otherwise, assume it only advances with levels in the class that granted it.
You could get it up to 12d10, though it is a bit of an extreme investment. You can take 10 levels in Summoner (or any of the archetypes IIRC), get the Aspect power, then take the Improved Damage (EX) evolution.
Granted, it is a bit of a grey area, but you could argue that the evolution doesn't depend on your form.
Okay, it probably won't fly, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
Not so much that it won't fly, but trying to fit in 10 levels of summoner is asking a bit much from this build. Was only able to get the barb levels in due to the early access high damage natural attack. Good idea though.
Just curious, the tiny/large ooze shapes at lvl 12 are based off beast shape IV which gives resistances. Would a 12th level cave Druid shaped into a medium ooze get the benefits of beast shape IV, if so carnivorous crystals grant resist fire, cold and electricity 20.
So the Conqueror Ooze is based on the existence of the Carnivorous Crystal. That does increase the power of the Cave Druid. That is for certain.
Well before that Cave Druids really didn't have much to recommend them. The darkness domain is nifty, but you got literally nothing out of your ooze WS forms due to how beast shape worked.
Prototype00
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Sorry to necro this, but I have some questions that need answered please:
Let's say I'm playing in an apocalyptic game.
Let's further say that I am a cave druid archetype and I can Wild Shape into an Ooze. Because why in the hell not?
This character is a 16th level hybrid.
He is 8th level Druid, but has Shaping Focus feat. He should be effective level 12 for wild shape which allows for medium sized oozes. Because, why the hell not?
And now the fun stuff. Here is a medium ooze: Carnivorous Crystal Ooze
Its main attack is a 7d6 slam.
Let us assume that I Enlarge as this ooze.
Let us then assume that I cast Strong Jaw on this ooze.
Because, why in the hell not.
Now let us assume that I use Vital Strike
And then, just because too much is NEVER enough, let us assume that I then have 1 level of Barbarian and use Furious Finish
I'm too stupid to do maths.
Someone please, somewhere, help a brother out.
Please, break down the damage per step. Thanks much!
Also, let us further assume that this ooze has 7 levels of Monk, which would grant a base damage of 1d8.
Further then, this monk has Monastic Legacyfeat.
That should make him an effective level 12 monk for base damage, which would be 2d6.
This oozing monk would further wear a Monk's Robe .
That should make him an effective lvl 17 monk for base damage of 2d8.
Assume also that said oozy monk is then using Feral Combat Training (slam)
Now then, the question begs...assuming the same spells in effect (enlarge, strong jaw) and then feat (vital strike)......
Which is the better series of attacks?
The natural attack of the Carnivorous Crystal Ooze at 7d6 base, strong jawed, enlarged, and then vital striking with Furious Finish to do max damage?
The natural attack of the Carnivorous Crystal Ooze at 7d6, strong jawed, enlarged, and then flurrying of blows? (hehe thats just silly to think about)
Or, foregoing the ooze in and of itself, and just going straight natural damage from the monk/druid aspect
Thank you!
So, mistaken first step, its 7d8 damage, not 7d6.
So 7d8 -> 14d8 (Strong Jaw)
and thats it, as enlarge doesn't work on you as per the Polymorph rules:
In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
So unless you can find a Supernatural ability that lets you grow larger, you are a bit out of luck.
So the vital strike feat line ends in greater vital strike, x4 damage dice.
So thats 14d8 x 4 = 56d8 while greater vital striking.
If you use furious finish while doing this, you deal 448 base weapon damage (+ whatever other static mods you have) and are fatigued.
Unless you have 5 levels of Martial artist monk, which grants you immunity to fatigue.
The 5 levels of MA monk will also allow you to take Feral Combat Training (Slam), which, yes, allows you to flurry with your 14d8 slam attack (if you had strong jaw cast).
Since the highest damage I have been able to get on my Monk/Druids otherwise is 12d8, the ooze wins that particular battle, but it is harder to pull off (more classes involved if you want to be a barbarian).
Really, this is all spelled out in Ohako's build, so go read that if you want to see how it all comes together.
prototype00
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I have a version i have been playing for over a year in society and he is truly impressive but I just want straight druid to see how it work and for some party flexibility when needed.
One thought i had to lose 2 barbarian levels and gain 2 druid levels. This won't do much at all for wild shape but grants you access to 5th level spells.
If you take the Eagle Domain you get to very useful spells for your Ooze, Fly and Overland Flight.
This can mitigate a majority of the movement problems associated with the Ooze and let you take the fight to sky with Flying Ooze.
Also Bestiary 4 had the Immortal Ichor a medium ooze with a 6d6 Slam that also does 1d3 Wis Drain (yes drain) and a 20' fly speed. Little less damage but with vital strike it could do 2d3 wis drain if you want to make your GM go HUH? Also had Acid and Electricity immunity and Cold Resist for when you get to Beast Shape 4 with your Ooze.
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Archives of Nethys
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So unless you can find a Supernatural ability that lets you grow larger, you are a bit out of luck.
So I am thinking Druid 6/Cleric 1/Monk 4 This gives three attacks. If I did my math right, that should be +12/+12/+7 (BaB, 20 STR, weapon focus), but what would the damage be?
7d8 -> Strong Jaw -> 14d8, but then how does enlarge modify that?
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Archives of Nethys
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I am not sure that would work. Although it is a supernatural ability it is one based on a spell and spells can't be used to alter size once polymorphed.
I don't see why not. If a supernatural ability mimics a spell, it is still supernatural.
EDIT: I just noticed that a druids wild shape is also supernatural. Also, found this under the polymorph section:
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape)
The interesting thing is that enlarge person is not listed as a polymorph spell or effect, which seems to imply that you can in fact stack it with wild shape.
Hm, now I don't know what to think.
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RAW, it's a supernatural ability, not a Spell-like or a Spell. RAW, you can use growth while polymorphed. I have no idea if that was intended, I can see arguments for it either way. Personally, I think it SHOULD work, as the growth domain is limited, and you have very few uses per day of being larger.
I would expect table variation in PFS, or GMs to throw things at you in home games.
If you take the Eagle Domain you get to very useful spells for your Ooze, Fly and Overland Flight.
This can mitigate a majority of the movement problems associated with the Ooze and let you take the fight to sky with Flying Ooze.
Druids already get the quite excellent Air Walk spell, and as stated below, the Growth subdomain has quite a bit more to add to the mix than just the ability to fly (like the ability to one-shot Treerazer with 672 damage in a single Slam).
Also Bestiary 4 had the Immortal Ichor a medium ooze with a 6d6 Slam that also does 1d3 Wis Drain (yes drain) and a 20' fly speed. Little less damage but with vital strike it could do 2d3 wis drain if you want to make your GM go HUH? Also had Acid and Electricity immunity and Cold Resist for when you get to Beast Shape 4 with your Ooze.
I'm curious as to whether the drain is included as part of the "damage" of a natural attack as pertains to Beast Shape spells. (or polymorph spells in general) It is something I might raise in the rules forum.
Concerning the Growth Subdomain I defer to Imbicatus' argument.
RAW, it's a supernatural ability, not a Spell-like or a Spell. RAW, you can use growth while polymorphed. I have no idea if that was intended, I can see arguments for it either way. Personally, I think it SHOULD work, as the growth domain is limited, and you have very few uses per day of being larger.
Its a Supernatural ability that mimics a spell, thus it is not considered a spell/spell like ability and can be used on a polymorphed creature.
prototype00
I see your point, Taenia, but that doesn't change the fact that the whole effect, RAW, is a supernatural ability, and not a spell.
Like would it be subject to spell resistance, do you think?
prototype00
Did you pop in to defend the viewpoints of two posters who had graciously bowed out of the thread when I politely asked them to take non RAW arguments elsewhere (Not least a bloody year ago?!)
If so, good show! I applaud your reading comprehension!
prototype00
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Its one of those areas where I just don't know.
I think you and Imbicatus have a point in that the supernatural tag may allow it to stand outside the "spells" limit. The phrasing may contradict that but it may not.
Its definitely one I would ask the devs though if I didn't already have too many questions for them already.
One way I would turn this around, can you use enlarge person spell on a wild shaped druid. The polymorph rules say,
"In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell."
A druid's wild shape ability is supernatural and not a spell. I think it may be the same logic flipped around.
Just a life observation mind you - Bullies are bullies no matter how they skin it with farcical attempts at philosophy or verbosity.
Being right is being right. No matter how bad that makes the people who are wrong feel. If they didn't want to be feel bad they should have been wrong, or admitted they were wrong and changed to being right, rather then complain about how "bullied" they are. Just a life observation mind you.
Just a life observation mind you - Bullies are bullies no matter how they skin it with farcical attempts at philosophy or verbosity.
*sigh* Look, if there are any ruffled feathers or hurt feelings for either yourself or Chris van horn or David Bross, then I am sorry and I sincerely apologise. I've not been called a bully many times in my life (or any time that I can recall save this one), but if you say so, I believe it and you (or they) deserve an apology. Not that its a defense, but your initial post was quite derogatory, and perhaps that set my teeth on edge.
The issue is I feel the points you all are trying to raise are more rule questions (should the ooze have a 7d8 slam? Should the slam damage be based on a su or ex ability rather than as part of the natural attack itself?) than advice question (and Advice is a theorycraft forum, make no mistake. Stuff comes out of here that makes all DMs wish that they were wearing their brown pants).
Please post as many times as you want in the rules forums so that you can to get the issue faqqed. (though I have not seen that many, or any since this thread, so I had logged it as not a concern.)
With that I conclude my argument with you, and wish you a good summer.
prototype00
I have a mini-conqueror-ooze build that gives some new options to a casting druid.
Cave Druid 5/Bbn1/Druid X
07 natural spell
09 Vital Srike
11 Furious Finish
15 Improved Vital Strike
Taking the cave domain will give you the ability to give yourself darkvision in 1 hour increments and tremorsense at 6th(7th).
One way I would turn this around, can you use enlarge person spell on a wild shaped druid. The polymorph rules say,
"In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell."
A druid's wild shape ability is supernatural and not a spell. I think it may be the same logic flipped around.
That is a fair question, Taenia, one that I don't have the answer to. Personally I hope it works for theorycraft reasons, but fair enough if it doesn't.
prototype00