I don't think copycat cen be considered to be mirror image. And when there is no spell equivalent
If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability’s effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast
witch means 1 since you gain it at first level.
It says it "functions as a single mirror image", not the spell as a whole.
They are the same general type of effect so they don't stack,
but the 'single image' effect is not the 2nd level mirror image spell.
Copycat:Mirror Image is like Vanish:Invisibility
Fate Inquisition is still a good race-neutral and deity-neutral means to pick up a 2nd level divine SLA with 1 cleric level.
so I just realized an aasimar battle oracle with the double sla trick might be a step towards problematic if you followed it up with EK levels you would end up with a BAB...of 12. You can start with a sorcerer bloodline that could be scaled using feats (sylvan plus boon companion) and picked up a secondary bloodline via eldritch heritage (I am fond of orc) and end up with all bloodline powers from one bloodline, a full powered animal companion, 11 levels of divine casting (whose slots you can use for arcane spells for a 1 level bump), 2 more base attack, and an oracle curse scaled to a level 11 oracle. In exchange you lose one level of spellcasting, bonus feats (some of the bloodline choices are terrible so not gonna lose sleep here), about 4 to 5 regular feats, and bonus spells.is this actually a MT build, not EK? EK doesn't advanced divine casting, and you're seemingly referencing the MT ability to 'share' spellslots. are you actually using MT in here at all?
its both, the battle mystery oracle can get martial weapon proficiency, so i was talking about going oracle/sorcerer MT than finishing it off with levels of EK.
Your choice, Cleric would maximize the advantage of it's faster Spell Level progression and be only 1 level behind (equalling Oracle Spell Level progression essentially), Sorceror would make the most of a more capable Arcane Spell List (being just 1 level behind regular Sorcs). Either works... I guess if you're worried about comparisons to a single class build, going Cleric2 and only losing 1 level progression is probably the way to go. If you're worried about the loss of Channel, perhaps try using Infernal Healing with your Sorceror slots?
Either way you should still get Bloodline Spells (as well as Domain Slots) since Spells Known are one of the things specifically called out as the PrC granting you "as if taking levels in the class" which doesn't reference any specific Class Ability.
what PrC refers to Spells class feature? they refer to 'as if you gained a level in the class'.
what happens when you gain a level? you gain all the class features for that level.
the PrCs give you a list of the types of effects from those you will actually gain thru the PrC.
Spells per Day: At the indicated levels, an eldritch knight gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.
Where is the restriction to only the specific "Spells" class feature?
It's not there. "This has been true since Pathfinder was released"
Spells Known is a specific class feature, with an associated table. You gain that.
Bloodline spell is an other class ability. You don't gain that.
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And bloodline spells is a class feature (which makes it fall into other benefit) that grants spells known. They are not, in and of themselves, spells known. Like I said if you don't believe it, make a post in the rules forum and ask other people who know more about this game than you. But quit giving out false information.what PrC refers to Spells class feature? they refer to 'as if you gained a level in the class'.
what happens when you gain a level? you gain all the class features for that level.
the PrCs give you a list of the types of effects from those you will actually gain thru the PrC.Spells per Day: At the indicated levels, an eldritch knight gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.Where is the restriction to only the specific "Spells" class feature?
It's not there. "This has been true since Pathfinder was released"
That seems unbecessarily hostile. Quandary's point is not obviously absurd.
It probably would be best off in its own thread, though.
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When it refers to benefits gained from a class level, that includes benefits granted by class abilities at that class level, that is how you get these benefits from gaining a class level, including the Spells class feature. If you would not gain benefits granted by class abilities at a given class level, Sorcerors would NEVER gain ANY spells known thru these PrCs. Again, "Spells" Class Feature is never mentioned, "Bloodline" Class Feature is never mentioned, the PrC progression doesn't care what the name of the ability is, it only cares about the type of thing being granted: spells/day, spells known, and caster level.
This is totally on par with the non-spontaneous casters who gain their Domain Slots and School Slots along with their progression.
so I just realized an aasimar battle oracle with the double sla trick might be a step towards problematic if you followed it up with EK levels you would end up with a BAB...of 12. You can start with a sorcerer bloodline that could be scaled using feats (sylvan plus boon companion) and picked up a secondary bloodline via eldritch heritage (I am fond of orc) and end up with all bloodline powers from one bloodline, a full powered animal companion, 11 levels of divine casting (whose slots you can use for arcane spells for a 1 level bump), 2 more base attack, and an oracle curse scaled to a level 11 oracle. In exchange you lose one level of spellcasting, bonus feats (some of the bloodline choices are terrible so not gonna lose sleep here), about 4 to 5 regular feats, and bonus spells. truth be told, that doesn't sound so terrible. straight sorcerer might still be better, but that would still be a welcome addition to the party (even if it reeks of feta and gouda).
edit:whoops meant to say you lose two levels of spell casting, and forgot to mention counting as an 8th level fighter and getting 2 combat feats.Wouldn't work. While you're right about everything else the animal companion of works off sor class levels not caster levels.
so seriously, I would like to someone with serious system mastery try to push this into viability.
Two ways I can think of to scale an Animal Companion to full class level or near it while taking caster PrCs:
Any EK build, but with 4 Cavalier levels (NOT Samurai) to get Expert Trainer,
which is the prereq for the Horse Master Feat (Ult Combat) that lets you use total character level to determine Mount/Companion scaling.
The Mount wouldn't scale (past 4th druid level) for 2-3 levels until you get the 6 skill rank pre-req and get the Feat, then it uses full character level.
If you go with Wildblood/Sylvan Sorceror as your casting class, that opens up the full druid list,
but unless you want full Druid list access, the Mount will be scaled to full character level regardless.
Aasimar's Favored Class Bonus for Oracles is adding 1/2 to the effect of a Revelation,
so they could go Wildblooded Sorc(Sylvan)1/Oracle(Nature)8/MT4 for a full class level Companion at character level 13.
EDIT: If you don't go for Sylvan Sorceror, the Companion will be 1 level behind, but you could still reach 12th level companion at char level 12.
I don't think (???) there's equivalent Favored Class Bonuses for Sorceror, so you could not do a Sylvan/EK build that way.
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Someone mentioned that Gnomes now qualify for Arcane Strike just for being gnomes. Here's my quick attempt at a Gnome Fighter, 15pt buy.
Starting Stats:
STR 13, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 10
Feats:
1)Arcane Strike, Power Attack
2)Weapon Focus: Falchion
3)Iron Will
4)Weapon Spec: Falchion
5)Improved Bull Rush
6)Furious Focus
7)Bloody Assault
8)Improved Critical: Falchion
9)Greater Weapon Focus: Falchion
10)Arcane Blast?
11)Dazing Assault
12)Greater Weapon Spec: Falchion
By level 5, he'll be doing 1d6+15 damage, [+3 from STR, +6 from PA, +3 from AS, +1 from WT, +2 from WS] and that's assuming no magic gear.
Would a 10th level Gnome Fighter qualify for Arcane Blast based on his SLAs? Would it be worth it for him, versus Arcane Strike with a longbow?
A pure Fighter couldn't really use Arcane Blast even if they qualified, because it explicitly uses SPELL SLOTS to function.
Assuming they were an EK or something, the bow would be better unless it was something like a swarm (immune to weapons).
Arcane Blast's pre-reqs also say: Arcane spellcaster.
IMHO that refers to having a CLASS LEVEL of an Arcane spellcaster class (or something like a dragon that casts as if a sorceror of X level)
Which merely having an SLA doesn't qualify for, even though you have a 'caster level' from it and it is 'arcane'.
This is equivalent terminology used in the Improved Familiar Feat, whose pre-reqs reference "sufficient level (see below)" NOT caster level, and the description (below) references "Arcane Spellcaster Level". So "Arcane [or Divine] Spellcaster" seems to refer to class levels specifically (dragons probably qualify, but not SLAs, you actually need the spellcasting progression of a qualifying class).
** Can a Cleric with the Fire domain and Preferred Spell (fireball) sacrifice a non-domain slot to fuel a Cleric-version fireball?
** Can that Cleric sacrifice a non-domain slot to fuel a Wizard-version fireball?
The first question's a definite yes if he's a theologian.
(eating up 3 feats, but that allows an Oracle4/Sorc1/MT build if your 6th level Feat can be used to qualify for MT)[/ooc], but it doesn't seem so hot for anything else.
Quandary, you're slipping back to 3.5 I think - you've got a fifth level feat slot, not a sixth.
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And bloodline spells is a class feature (which makes it fall into other benefit) that grants spells known. They are not, in and of themselves, spells known. Like I said if you don't believe it, make a post in the rules forum and ask other people who know more about this game than you. But quit giving out false information.what PrC refers to Spells class feature? they refer to 'as if you gained a level in the class'.
what happens when you gain a level? you gain all the class features for that level.
the PrCs give you a list of the types of effects from those you will actually gain thru the PrC.Spells per Day: At the indicated levels, an eldritch knight gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.Where is the restriction to only the specific "Spells" class feature?
It's not there. "This has been true since Pathfinder was released"
This FAQ seems relevant:
Witch: If I take levels in a prestige class that advances my spellcasting, do I continue to gain bonus spells from my patron as I gain levels?
No. That is a class feature of the witch class, and the standard "+1 level of spellcasting" prestige class ability only advances spells known, spells per day, effective spellcaster level. (You retain the patron spells from your familiar based on your actual witch level, of course.)
—Sean K Reynolds, 11/24/10
so seriously, I would like to someone with serious system mastery try to push this into viability.so I just realized an aasimar battle oracle with the double sla trick might be a step towards problematic if you followed it up with EK levels you would end up with a BAB...of 12. You can start with a sorcerer bloodline that could be scaled using feats (sylvan plus boon companion) and picked up a secondary bloodline via eldritch heritage (I am fond of orc) and end up with all bloodline powers from one bloodline, a full powered animal companion, 11 levels of divine casting (whose slots you can use for arcane spells for a 1 level bump), 2 more base attack, and an oracle curse scaled to a level 11 oracle. In exchange you lose one level of spellcasting, bonus feats (some of the bloodline choices are terrible so not gonna lose sleep here), about 4 to 5 regular feats, and bonus spells. truth be told, that doesn't sound so terrible. straight sorcerer might still be better, but that would still be a welcome addition to the party (even if it reeks of feta and gouda).
edit:whoops meant to say you lose two levels of spell casting, and forgot to mention counting as an 8th level fighter and getting 2 combat feats.Wouldn't work. While you're right about everything else the animal companion of works off sor class levels not caster levels.
well ciretose this seemed to be the nearest I could manage.
I started a new FAQ for SLAs based on spells that don't duplicate them exactly. Go and FAQ it!
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I started a new FAQ for SLAs based on spells that don't duplicate them exactly. Go and FAQ it!
I did, but it is answered elsewhere in the FAQ...well answered as much as such a question can be answered.
Just looking for consensus, is there general agreement that the EK synergy is problematic?
So far, that is the only "broken" thing I have seen, but I also haven't dug into the various MT possibilities.
SKR confirms that "similar but not exactly the same" SLAs are at the level of the spell.
So now you don't have to be an Aasimar to get that 3rd-level arcane SLA! You can be a Scryer Wizard!
And we all realize the difference between a Witch and a Spontaneous Caster?
And we all realize the difference between a Witch and a Spontaneous Caster?
yup just like we all realize that bonus spells from secondary clas features is the same spontaneous or prepared, or are we gonna argue mystery and bloodline spells aren't the same as a patron's.
the Prcs say you gain spells known *if you are a spontaneous spellcaster*.
Bonus bloodline spells definitely falls in "other benefit" territory, and if you read the FAQ correctly the reason stated was because it was part of the witch's class features, otherwise they still would get patron spell-slot's, but they don't.
So any specific problem builds. Personally, I do think the 3rd level entry EK is a bit problematic and I'm on the fence about early entry MT.
i have no problems with 3rd level EK
you still take a 1 BAB delay and a 2 caster level delay for the first 12 levels, with no other class features, and no favored class bonus. plus you have to be a standard aasimaar (the stock daylight using kind)
you have a much lower attack bonus than most fighters and a much lower damage bonus, plus you are a whole spell level behind, with a reduced DC bonus. bound more MAD than a traditional wizard, and it doesn't matter whether you max out a PRC at 12th level or 20th level. it is still only 10 levels of that PRC. you get a few numeric benefits earlier, big deal.
at least MT's and EKs are viable now instead of sucking, and now you can have more roguish ATs that have 6th level spells, +11 BAB, and 10d6 sneak attack dice.
or you can have a more martial EK, or a more Divine Thuerge.
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the Prcs say you gain spells known *if you are a spontaneous spellcaster*.
That actually isn't what they say at all. Using Mystic Theurge as an example, emphasis mine, they say:
When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly . . .
It just says that they gain spells known. If that included any spells added from other class abilities, then a witch's patron spells would be added to her/his spells from a PrC level. As SKR indicated, they are not because they come from a class feature other than Spells, the same as those from a Sorcerer's Bloodline ability.
" At each new witch level, she adds two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new witch level) to her familiar. "
That isn't spells known, or simply spells known, it is adding to an effective spellbook.
I have no idea why MT does not replicate the wording in EK, which is the wording I was quoting, as was clear from my post which included the entire text that explicitly says "Eldritch Knight". All the PrCs use pretty much the same wording with some minor variation, I have no idea the reason for the variance, or what different functionality that difference could be indicating between the various PrCs.
Prepared arcane casters like wizards/witch/magus use (and are normally granted by class levels) spells in a 'spellbook', which is distinct from spells known and as such isn't granted when 'spells known' are granted, with or without explicitly calling out that only spontaneous casters receive that.
Where could you posssibly read any restriction to the 'Spells' class feature from the RAW, for MT or EK or any other PrC?
I have no idea what the 'intent' truly is, but how could you possibly get that from RAW?
i have no problems with 3rd level EK
you still take a 1 BAB delay and a 2 caster level delay for the first 12 levels, with no other class features, and no favored class bonus. plus you have to be a standard aasimaar (the stock daylight using kind)
That's not quite true. The Scryer subschool for Diviner wizards gives a 3rd-level arcane SLA, so any race works.
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As far as the specific call-out in EK that it applies to Spontaneous casters, I see no difference in intent between that wording and that of the MT. My assumption would be that it was left out in the latter case due to space constraints.
As far as that wording indicating that Bloodline Spells are not, in fact, learned by the EK spell-casting advancement, look again at the wording.
At the indicated levels, an eldritch knight gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.
Breaking it down phrase by phrase, we have the following:
At the indicated levels, an eldritch knight gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class.
Seems pretty self-explanatory. When the EK gets a spellcasting advancement, he adds the relevant EK levels to his arcane casting class levels to determine how many casts per day.
He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, ...
Okay. So now we're clarifying that EK does not equal the other class entirely, just as far as casts per day.
... except for additional spells per day, ...
So what we already know.
... spells known (if he is a spontaneous caster), ...
Okay, so we add in that if the character is a spontaneous caster (Sorcerer or Bard at the time of writing), in addition to new spell slots per day, he gets the accompanying Spells Known progression indicated under the Spells class feature.
... and an increased effective level of spellcasting.
And his caster level for those spells goes up accordingly.
Bloodline spells (for the Sorcerer) aren't covered under Spells Known, and thus are not added by Spells Known increases in the PrC because they are part of a different class feature, one that is expressly not advanced by the PrC. The PrC advances the Spells class feature of the chosen arcane casting class, but grants no other boons that class would otherwise have offered.
In a nutshell, a Fighter 1/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 5 has the class abilities of the following:
It also has the spellcasting capability of a Sorcerer 10. Not the full powers of, or the full strength of a Bloodline Level 10. Just the normal spellcasting potential. A Bloodline Spell isn't known until the Bloodline is advanced. Advancing spellcasting capability does not advance the Bloodline, and so does not grant additional Bloodline spells.
The restriction to the Spells class feature is RAW because the wording of the spellcasting advancement refers back to key components of the Spells class feature (spells per day, spells known, caster level).
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The question on the table is for me, does what you get from EK (full BaB, More hit points, bonus feats, access to fighter feats and eventually spell critical) > more than bloodline abilities.
I say yes.
A 12th level full sorcerer has a BaB of +6/+1 with average hit points of 44.5 (before con and favored class). Saves are +4, +4, +8.
On the upside they have access to 6th level spells and bloodlines
a Fighter 1, Sorcerer 1, EK 10 has a BaB of +11/+6/+1 with average hit points of 68.5 and saves of +7, +3, +5.
They don't have 6 level spells, but they do have 4 bonus feats (not counting martial weapon and armor proficiencies), access to 11th level fighter feats, and spell mastery.
A Sohei/ Sorcer 1 Empyreal Sorcerer/ EK 10 has a BaB of +10/+5 with average Hit points of 66.5 and saves of +7,+5,+7.
Again no 6th level spells, but they add wisdom to AC (which is also their casting class...), have unarmed strike, 4 bonus feats (monks also get a bonus feat at 1st)
All of that seems like a favorable trade off to me. Particularly if compared to a straight fighter.
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Here is another build... this one is geared toward PFS, hence stopping at twelve. I tried to used the inherent benefits of the bloodline with a couple feats to get extreme DCs and make Charisma the only stat needed... crazy that a 7 Dex doesn't hurt this guy at all except for initiative...
Charmer
Kyton-Spawn Tiefling Mystic Theurge 7 Oracle 4 Sorcerer 1
LN Medium Outsider (native)
Init -2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +1
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Defense
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AC 21, touch 19, flat-footed 12 (+9 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 138 (4d8+8d6+84)
Fort +9, Ref +12, Will +11
Resist cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Spell-Like Abilities Web (1/day)
Oracle Spells Known (CL 11):
5 (6/day) Cure Light Wounds, Mass, Breath of Life (DC 24), Command, Greater (DC 26)
4 (8/day) Blessing of Fervor (DC 23), Cure Critical Wounds, Freedom of Movement, Restoration
3 (8/day) Protection from Energy, Prayer, Cure Serious Wounds, Invisibility Purge, Chain of Perdition
2 (8/day) Restoration, Lesser, Resist Energy, Sound Burst (DC 21), Cure Moderate Wounds, Tongues, Aid, Enthrall (DC 25)
1 (9/day) Liberating Command, Murderous Command (DC 22), Shield of Faith, Identify, Sanctuary (DC 20), Obscuring Mist, Cure Light Wounds
0 (at will) Virtue, Spark (DC 19), Stabilize, Detect Poison, Purify Food and Drink (DC 19), Create Water, Guidance, Light, Enhanced Diplomacy
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 8):
4 (5/day) Charm Monster (DC 28)
3 (7/day) Deep Slumber (DC 25), Hold Person (DC 25)
2 (9/day) False Life, Invisibility, Hideous Laughter (DC 24)
1 (9/day) Shield, Expeditious Retreat, Mage Armor, Charm Person (DC 25), Feather Fall (DC 21)
0 (at will) Acid Splash, Open/Close (DC 20), Read Magic, Mage Hand, Detect Magic, Mending, Dancing Lights, Message
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Statistics
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Str 7, Dex 7, Con 22, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 28
Base Atk +6; CMB +4; CMD 12
Feats Armor of the Pit, Eschew Materials, Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment), Persuasive, Scholar (Knowledge [arcana], Knowledge [religion]), Spell Focus (Enchantment), Toughness +12
Traits Focused Mind, Prolong Magic
Skills Diplomacy +26, Escape Artist +0, Intimidate +28, Knowledge (arcana) +26, Knowledge (religion) +26, Sense Motive +7, Spellcraft +9; Racial Modifiers revelations (lore keeper, sidestep secret)
Languages Abyssal, Common, Osiriani
SQ bloodlines (infernal), combined spells (4th), corrupting touch (1 rds) (13/day), fiendish sorcery, interaction bonus, mysteries (lore), oracle's curses (legalistic), vow to self (1/day)
Other Gear Belt of mighty constitution +6, Headband of alluring charisma +6, 150 GP
I like the social control possibility here, skills are not terrible, healing is ok... depending on his party he could fill a lot of different rolls except direct DPS... DC 28 Charm Monster has got to get your attention. :)