Goblin Squad Member
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What do they mean by no classes? And how it could possibly be good? The most appealing features of RPGs, pen and paper, videogames or MMOs, are classes. I hoped to play with great Archetypes but we are not even getting classes!?
Ih there any update on that? Did I read or understand wrong? Anyone else as disappointed as I am?
What they mean, is that you are not locked into anything on your character. IE you can make the equivelant of a rogue, wizard, cleric etc... But by being a wizard, that does not mean you cannot train the skill for high HP, or train the skills to be able to mellee etc...
Some skills themselves will be focused on a particular "role", IE there is a tree of skills for barbarians, that would most likely have rage etc... and the abilities that you would identify as a barbarian, and odds are if the gear and items you are wearing are for a barbarian, you won't be particularly good at spellcasting etc...
IE you in theory can be ALL classes on one character, but most likely can't effectively be all of them at the same time.
So you can be like a class effectively, but GW avoids the word classes, because compared to normal MMO's you are not locked into your class after character creation, and unlike P&P there is no increase in work required to say, start on rogue skills after training your barbarian skills up very high (IE in P&P a 15th level barbarian, would need to get the same XP it takes to get from 15-16 to take 1 level of rogue, while in PFO, it would be the same as earning for the basic first level skill).
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Goblin Squad Member
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A limit would give some base to think it better, I mean a limit of experience, number of skills or skill levels.
Anyway, thaks for answering but no classes = no pathfinder, not going to play. IMO this is ridiculous, a big down for people who like the system of Pathfinder or D&D.
This was my initial reaction as well.
However having since played EVE and seen the skill system in operation and reading more about what is proposed I have changed my mind.
The proposed skill system achieves exactly the same effect as the traditional classes system but more efficiently with more freedom.
If you want to be the equivalent of a high level casting cleric for example you will need to focus extensively on those skills and pretty much only those skills for several years. Sure people can make jack of all trades characters but they will be ineffectual in comparison.
ALSO ... there are numerous online games out there using open source 3.5 era D&D rules already. NWN online is one such game that has been around for nearly a decade. There is no real need for ANOTHER one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Classes in the Pathfinder RPG set limits on the interaction your character has with the game mechanics.
In PFO you will choose those limits, and those classes (and Archetypes) will still 'exist' where they always have; in the actions you excel at in gameplay.
It's pathfinder with the training wheels off.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A limit would give some base to think it better, I mean a limit of experience, number of skills or skill levels.
Anyway, thaks for answering but no classes = no pathfinder, not going to play. IMO this is ridiculous, a big down for people who like the system of Pathfinder or D&D.
Think outside of the box for a minute.
My favorite game is D&D (don't play often enough). Simply put, classes are great for Pen and Paper, but in an MMO they are pointless. You reach max level in months if not weeks... then you play "End Game Content" that is nothing more then a boring grind.
In a classless system, you can play a Fighter/Wizard/Thief. You can continue playing one character and not run out of skills to train (not in a reasonable time). For instance, Eve the game this system is based on, it will take you 22+ years to train every skill to max. This part may seem ridiculous but you can be very powerful if you focus in a "class."
You will have fighter skills, rogue skills, wizard skills. The difference is you can train them all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Raoni Luna,
Are your characters defined by their class and level? or, are they defined by how you role play them?
What Pathfinder Online is attempting to do is allow you the freedom to make the game about your character, as an individual and not as a member of some class, further measured by his or her level.
For a PC game, and I would argue for a PnP game, it is an evolution of role playing. It is an advancement beyond the limitations of Pathfinder RPG or AD&D.
The goal of PFO is to have us play these character for years, not just a few weeks in a PC game like Neverwinter Nights, or a few months like any theme park MMO of your choice.
I gotta say, I'm starting to get leery about this new MMO, what with the no classes. Maybe I should try programming a Hunter ( ala A Fistful of Denarii ) on NWN2. . .
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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@Raoni Luna: It's important and a good thing to know what you're looking for so that you don't invest too much energy in things that don't fit. So in some ways having a deal breaker feature (no classes == not playing) is a good idea.
In other ways it's a bit of a shame, because you might miss out on something really cool. There are good reasons why Goblinworks have taken this approach, reasons based in the reality of developing MMO titles in a sustainable way. I won't repeat them here.
For my part I too have played, and loved: Icewind Dale 1 & 2, Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 & Throne of Bhaal, NWN 1 & 2 and numerous community made modules. Hell I played Pools of Radiance and Eye of the Beholder and the Ultima series. And I'm really excited that Goblinworkds is trying something new.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Raoni Luna and Caligastia, you can build your character to simulate whatever class you desire; simply avoid learning any skills not covered in your concept. You've been given freedom, with the constraints that you've been used to in tabletop removed.
If constraint is your desire, there are, and will be, other games for you. I, and others here, can't wait for PFO, and we hope you'll join us.
Raoni Luna and Caligastia, you can build your character to simulate whatever class you desire; simply avoid learning any skills not covered in your concept. You've been given freedom, with the constraints that you've been used to in tabletop removed.
If constraint is your desire, there are, and will be, other games for you. I, and others here, can't wait for PFO, and we hope you'll join us.
What about classes as guidelines? That is, a definition of the default class as what a certain type of character *tends* to interact like, but that the character can sway away from if they choose?
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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What about classes as guidelines? That is, a definition of the default class as what a certain type of character *tends* to interact like, but that the character can sway away from if they choose?
At an absolute minimum I expect that the community will create an array of guidelines for which skills to train if you want to play as a certain 'class'.
Okay, then I'm back into being interested! Maybe I can create a Hunter in PFO. . . .
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Okay, then I'm back into being interested! Maybe I can create a Hunter in PFO. . . .
By choosing to train tracking skills, and stealth skills, and archery skills and wilderness skills. And maybe adding some minor divine magical skills or some assassination skills or some gathering skills depending on YOUR concept of a hunter...
That's the plan!
The one I had in mind is mostly like a Ranger, but no spells, and not the combat style feats, but plus sneak attack! He tries to beat opponents with one well-placed strike, although his BAB is good enough for when that fails. . .
Chief Technical Officer
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Raoni and Caligastia,
Have you read this blog post about character development? (A few things have changed a little bit since that was written, but it's mostly still on target.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Okay, then I'm back into being interested! Maybe I can create a Hunter in PFO. . . .
Thinks of a hunter as a profession and not a class, and you will be alright. Train the skills that you believe a well trained hunter would have.
Why limit yourself to what a rulebook in Pnp tells you is a "hunter"?
I intend to "Be" a bandit, even though I can't "play" a bandit, because that class will not be in the game (probably not for years).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I appreciate you trying to enlighten me on the subject but having played many D&D based RPGs I have Neverwinter Nights 2 (specially the expansion MotB)as the most perfect D&D game I have ever played. What I expect from a modern MMO of Pathfinder is AT LEAST what NWN2 is. But ok, I have to be more specific, it is not about being just as fun, well made or RP friendly, it is about being close to the original system.
NWN2 lacks a LOT of D&D but it have the feeling of creating a D&D character. Limitation is not bad, it is good, and not only good, it is necessary it is one of the things that makes D&D be D&D and, of course, the sames goes with Pathfinder.
The last thing I want when it comes to a Pathfinder game class system is freedom. I do and did spend hour developing characters in Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, ToEE, NWN1 and 2 exactly because there is nothing better than having to plan carefully character classes, skills and feats at each level with precision to achieve a specific build be it 4fun like a Fighter descendant of the Fey or somthing brutal like a dragon disciple weapon master.
So if it was, and I understand that this I'm going to describe is nowhere near the developers goal, a Neverwinter Nights 2 with Pathfinder classes, archetypes, feats, skills and such, with the addition of flying, an improved craft system and more non combat skills like survival and sense motive, THAT would be a game. If NWN2 didn't have so many things hardcoded I would make a Pathfinder mod, but that is not the case.
But no, this is not what I wanted, and I understand that this is not what I'm getting, but classes, sorry, I can't live without them so hell yeah I'm going to stick, god knows for how long, to NWN1 and 2, unfortunately, waiting someone to make another decent D&D or Pathfinder game...
I really love Bioware's Dragon Age, in fact it is my favourite RPG of all times, and I anxioulsly waiting for DA3 but it is not Pathfinder, it does not have same races, classes or the marvelous Archetypes, so it is not...
You can of course play Pathfinder Society modules online. You just need to find a reliable group and a GM.
Okay, then I'm back into being interested! Maybe I can create a Hunter in PFO. . . .Thinks of a hunter as a profession and not a class, and you will be alright. Train the skills that you believe a well trained hunter would have.
Why limit yourself to what a rulebook in Pnp tells you is a "hunter"?
They're quality rules; well-balanced, attractive to play . .
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Goblin Squad Member
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Okay, then I'm back into being interested! Maybe I can create a Hunter in PFO. . . .Thinks of a hunter as a profession and not a class, and you will be alright. Train the skills that you believe a well trained hunter would have.
Why limit yourself to what a rulebook in Pnp tells you is a "hunter"?
They're quality rules; well-balanced, attractive to play . .
But they can not fully translate into a PC game. This is not a reflection of poor programing or the lack of desire to do so, just not technically viable.
But they can not fully translate into a PC game. This is not a reflection of poor programing or the lack of desire to do so, just not technically viable.Okay, then I'm back into being interested! Maybe I can create a Hunter in PFO. . . .Thinks of a hunter as a profession and not a class, and you will be alright. Train the skills that you believe a well trained hunter would have.
Why limit yourself to what a rulebook in Pnp tells you is a "hunter"?
They're quality rules; well-balanced, attractive to play . .
*nod*
I take it that at the beginning of Character creation there will be a need to determine the character's type ( fighting, spell-casting, etc.), to determine starting hit dice?
What about classes as guidelines? That is, a definition of the default class as what a certain type of character *tends* to interact like, but that the character can sway away from if they choose?
Classes will exist in the game, but from a different perspective than you're used to.
You will get 'badges'(name to be determined) on your characters saying 'Fighter Level 10' or something.(You also gain badges for things like 'killing 1000 enemies of your XP or higher')
But that 'Fighter Level 10' isn't something that you select to fill in a generic character level advancement,
it is something you gain by meeting the PREREQUISITES of 'Fighter Level 10'.
Other abilities, gained by training Feats, may well have 'Fighter Level 10' as a pre-requisite...
Although that is just really short-hand for the pre-requisites to getting 'Fighter Level 10' in the first place.
So it's very plausible that many 'Ranger' or 'Barbarian' or 'Paladin' characters may qualify as 'Fighter Level X'.
Although they aren't obligated to USE that qualification to spend on training Fighter Level-specific Feats.
BTW, /PLENTY/ of pen&paper RPGs have existed and do exist without using a 'class' system, it's not an inherent feature of pen&paper gaming.
I take it that at the beginning of Character creation there will be a need to determine the character's type ( fighting, spell-casting, etc.), to determine starting hit dice?
They have indicated that things like "attack bonus/power", "saving throws/resistance", and HPs will be "purchasable" ad-hoc as you level up. If characters start out with a certain 'budget' in terms of initial abilities, I'm sure varying options for HPs will be present.
Have you read the Blogs? They really have covered how this will work, at least in broad strokes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd go with "...not the kind of person who buys Lo Mein when I want to eat Phad Thai.", but that's just nitpicking. I get where you're coming from, and to be fair if the game were like what you wanted, I would never have been interested.
It's one of the polarizing fundamentals about PFO, can't help that.
in Pen and Paper I don't have time to develop all the characters I have in mind while in a game like NWN2 I could make a lvl 30 character per week, characters I'd probably never play in pen and paper but characters that I do love.
Straight up, PFO is not about letting you develop a new "Level 30 character" each week. It's supposed to take near 2.5 years to reach the supposed Level 20 peak of "class abilities", and after that you can be multiclassing more class abilities (or do along the way).
A game where you can reach peak level in a week and churn out characters like an assembly line is inherently in conflict with the type of game where people want to enjoy playing their character for a long time and having their progress over time count. The focus here is moved away from a shallow "I churned thru X content to get Level 30, and here is my build" to the experience in playing with a growing character in an ecosystem of other characters, where all the trials and tribulations you endure and overcome are more important than your 'XP'. Even the ability development system matches this, being built around 'badges' or 'deeds' more so than generic 'XP'.
All the abilities, along with races and spells, etc, ARE being designed to mirror the same Golarion world of Pathfinder, and the game should overall strongly reflect that vibe. But the actual mechanics of the tabletop game are just not appropriate because the actual gaming experience will be very different. Hell, even the tabletop game is hardly considered balanced across all classes and levels, and when you change basic game dynamics like frequency of play and combat, not to mention continually fighting other PCs at par with yourself (APL+4 encounter right there, per tabletop), it doesn't make sense to use the tabletop rules. Which the staff of Paizo all understand, and why they are backing GW in making PFO with it's own mechanics.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of the limiting factors is how long it takes to earn XP in this game. In a MMO getting to level cap is a couple days maybe a week or two at most.
In PfO it will take 2.5 years to earn enough XP to completely level an archtype.
there are classes. But there is a difference.
basically there will be general skill tree(s), then class skill trees. the class skill trees will be where you will find well...class skills. So in order to rage you need to train the rage skills/feats in the barbarian tree, but say general two handed sword attacks would be learned from the general skill tree.
So there are classes, however think about it like you are able to multiclass freely. If you multi class there are two costs you have to consider. The first cost is an opportunity cost. if you want to play a barbarian style character and you train in a couple cleric skills then the cost is that it takes you longer to get your next barbarian skills.
the other cost is that there will be dedication bonuses. So basically when you train skills/feats you slot them on your action bar to use them. if you slot all skills/feats from the general and barbarian skill tree you will get some sort of bonus for slotting all barbarian skills. This bonus is even if you spent XP to learn cleric spells, as long as you dont slot the cleric spells then you get the bonus. If you slot some barbarian skills and then a healing spell (for soloing) you will not get the barbarian dedication bonus.
Although its like that I dont agree with a lot of people who say "dont play a class just pick skills". sometimes its the skills that define a certian type of person. its like saying playing a two handed warrior is like playing a barbarian, it isnt, you are missing rage and all the things that make a barbarian different from a fighter. Or saying a paladin is just a fighter cleric multi class...its not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Raoni Luna
I don't quite know what to make of your conversations with yourself, since no one here in this thread approached you in such a negative way, as you seem to attributed to I'm not sure whom??
We have calmly tried to point what direction PFO is being developed in. If that is not your cup of tea, well that is your choice to make. No one told you to "GTFO" and no one is likely to beg you to "Please Stay."
Pathfinder Online is not Pathfinder RPG, plain and simple, not designed to be that way. There are two types of fans that have been attracted to PFO:
1. Pathfinder Fans, who are O.K. with it not being exactly like PnP PFRPG
2. Sandbox, Open World PVP, MMO RPG fans.
I'm sure the hope of Paizo / Goblin Works is that once exposed, most of us will become a fan of both.
I personally had never heard of Pathfinder RPG, until this game came to my attention. Since then, I have bought the Beginner's Box and started to buy the Pathfinder comic book, from a local store.
So I bid you fair winds on your search for ice cream, if that is what you are looking for.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Well, you people that want a good MMO game open to freedom of creating everything you wanted and playing the most awesome roleplaying game, enjoy it. When someone create some 14kb dos game with pathfinder rules, please, let me know, they already have my approval, I'm not the kind of person that buys a popcorn when I want to eat Icecream.
Hi Raoni - this last paragraph of your post caught my eye and I wanted to respond to it separately. There are commercial reasons why you are unlikely to ever receive your wish for a direct conversion of Pathfinder into a CRPG or MMO.
The reason is that Pathfinder is built on the core d20 rules under the Open Gaming License granted by Wizards of the Coast lo these many years ago. The OGL allows Paizo to continue publishing roleplaying material, rules and adventures using those rules. But the OGL only covers table top gaming, not computer games. So to create a Pathfinder computer game that directly uses the game mechanics, in the way that Baldur's Gate does for 2nd Edition AD&D, Paizo / Goblinworks would need to go back to the original rights holders. Which is Hasbro, a vast multinational with absolutely no interest in licensing rights to let others compete with D&D Online.
So, unfortunately, not gonna happen. As it goes this is one of the reasons that I mentioned above for Goblinworks taking this path. There are others if you are interested.
That's sad. Still sounds like a fun game, but . . .I guess I'll be playing NWN2 for a while . . .
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am just gonna say this, if you wanna be close minded and drop a game before you even try it, then go ahead and sorry for your loss. You are absolutely welcome to post a question, or ask for clarification on something that you were unclear of after reading the blogs, but I can tell you that from your posts, you haven't read even a single blog. I would be surprised if I am wrong. Either way, there is no reason to respond the way you have, throwing out insults and calling names for a game still in early development because of a choice they made from the get-go.
As I said, if your so hard-set on "no class, no interest" then I wish you luck and good day. No reason to stick around and post like you have been. Leave the rest of us here to look forward and enjoy the game the GW is presenting to us.
All I can say is, as an avid RPer, if GW can pull off the game they have been blogging about since the beginning of last year, then THIS WILL BE the best MMORPG ever created, and I truly believe that. I also believe that the community plays a big part in making that happen, and we have that here. Kudos to GW and kudos to us.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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What can you do in NWN2 multiplayer that you think you will not be able to do in PFO?
The biggest difference I see is that you won't be able to take 4 other people and change the destiny of cities and nations, because thousands of people contribute to those destinies and only a few can distinguish themselves as the major movers of the world.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not even saying it is not good, I'm just saying I don't like it, if I may, of course. But now, care to explain me how creating something COMPLETELY different from Pathfinder and calling it Pathfinder is reasonable?
Is it a problem? No. And I will repeat, the only problem is that AS A PATHFINDER FAN, I would have liked it to be a Pathfinder game for the reasons I explained above. I have no interest in a good MMO RPG Game, I have LOTS of interests in a Pathfinder MMO, even if it was the worst MMO ever, because I want Pathfinder and not a good game.
Well, you people that want a good MMO game open to freedom of creating everything you wanted and playing the most awesome roleplaying game, enjoy it. When someone create some 14kb dos game with pathfinder rules, please, let me know, they already have my approval, I'm not the kind of person that buys a popcorn when I want to eat Icecream.
Can I ask you a question: Which do you prefer: Pathfinder RPG table-top game or NWN 2 computer game?
I don't think a computer game can ever be as good as the TT. I know it's subjective and I know that does not mean a great computer game cannot be made, because NWN 2 is already made!
If you still follow me, then an MMO as a computer game can't compete in that respect, but it can do things a TT game cannot do - so easily. And those things may take a different form than what you are comfortable with or what you think is right and proper for pathfinder. But think of it as adding another option to experience Pathfinder on different scales (the old magnifying glass resolution is going but lower resolution than the high rez of the TT).
Is there not a NWN 2 mod or something that adds a pathfinder skin?! Is that a dangerous question to ask?!
But now, care to explain me how creating something COMPLETELY different from Pathfinder and calling it Pathfinder is reasonable?
Because the creators and owners of Pathfinder RPG have endorsed it, and in fact are financially backing it, as well as licencing the Pathfinder/Golarion IP which is being used in the product? And that said creators also consider Golarion and their AP/Adventure module and Campaign Setting lines more central to what they do then the game mechanics themself? And that usage of the term "Pathfinder" originated using the 3.5 ruleset, not the PRPG ruleset, so the specific ruleset is clearly not central to the concept. Many, many features of the campaign setting as well as the game in general will be expressed in the PFO game, even if not using the same d20 mechanics or character development structure, and GoblinWorks seem serious about conforming to the world lore, even including Paizo staff in their planning process.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As a dyed-in-the-wool GURPS fan, I'm interested in why the restriction of Classes is so important to some (at least two) players.
From my perspective all they do is stop you from being free to develop the character you envisage. You cannot play a character I envisage and build with GURPS using standard D&D/PF rules, but I can build a D&D/PF character using standard GURPS. So having free choice to develop a character doesn't stop you from simulating one built under more restriction.
The only argument I have heard that makes sense is that having restrictive classes means new players have less rules to trawl through to choose their next upgrades.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Raoni Luna
What character class are you on the Pathfinder Online message boards?
The reason I ask is, if you are going to linger on the message boards of a game you not only have no intentions of playing, but actually hate, I'm curious of what kind of forum character you will be?
I believe for this game, there are very few character classes:
1. Lurker - Someone who just reads, rarely posts
2. Skeptic - Most likely won't play the game but might if it is free
3. Potential Convert - Sort of likes the game's direction but still unsure
4. Troll - Hates the game and wants to convince others to hate it too. Support of the game is met with vitriolic attacks.
5. Fan - Will play the game. Has a reasonable view of what the game is, and is not.
6. Fanboi - The developers or the game can do no wrong. Criticism is met with vitriolic attacks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Raoni Luna -
Maybe this thread is more what you are after: Thread: Character Model system and Character Creator Demo
You might be interested in, also: Man's Search for Meaning is a 1946 book by Viktor Frankl An inspiring book by an inspiring person.
@Bludd: Could add "Banboi" - Fanboi turned Troll. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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What do they mean by no classes? And how it could possibly be good? The most appealing features of RPGs, pen and paper, videogames or MMOs, are classes. I hoped to play with great Archetypes but we are not even getting classes!?
Honestly, if you think classes is the most appealing feature of all games ever, then there's a very real chance that you won't find this game any good.
Just realize, that classes isn't the Second Coming for everyone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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4. Troll - Hates the game and wants to convince others to hate it too. Support of the game is met with vitriolic attacks.
As a community we are here and will be here for years trying to clarify doubts and open the minds of those who don't believe in this or that aspect. But we can't give multi page threads to a troll who just said they doesn't even like games they just want a doll of X color and size.
Not worth it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Due to the complexity of the Pathfinder RPG, a lot of enjoyment can come from designing and crafting characters, and not actually playing them. Whatever Pathfinder Online becomes, it will definitely not be that.
I would think that "game hater" is not a target audience you would want to cater to when developing a game, so no matter what the final product is, it will not appeal to the OP.
Incidentally, my forum class would be "Lurker/Fan".
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Goblin Squad Member
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...I want different mechanics for games.
I've read all you've written, and, while it would be hard for me to disagree more, I respect your right to articulate your viewpoint. We'll miss having your discourse here among us...who are very much looking forward to PFO.
I do hope, however, that you continue to participate if you have positive contributions to make, given foreknowledge of what GW is planning to create.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"OH MY GOD YOU'RE SO STUPID AND STUFF DIE PLEASE"
"thats exactly what we are telling you to do, GTFO".
"OMG YOU'RE SO EXTREMISTS, IT IS AN EVOLUTION IN ROLEPLAYING"
Is not the way the people here talk to each other, so please, refrain from implying that we do.
Over the course of years I had to admit it to myself: I hate games.
if that is the case, then i´d like to know, why do you even bother to post so much negativity on a forum that is here to influence the way this game, that you already know you wont like, is going to turn out?
However I like creating and developing character in some interesting worlds with specific mechanics that allow me to give the identity that I want to the character that I pictured in my mind. I doesn't even need to be a game, I do spend lots of time with character creators.
This, actually is something i think a lot of us can relate to. if seen a lot of people confess to have altitis;)
and, if that is the case, have you had a look at herolabs?|
Goblin Squad Member
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We have a lot of great people on these forums, and it's nice they try to answer concerns and encourage posters to at least give PFO a try. However, to continue to feed threads fueled by 'I won't play because of X' and/or 'X is a dealbreaker for me' is a waste of time, imho.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Raoni Luna
I am absolutely grateful that your opinion is in the extreme minority.
I DO NOT want to play the Pathfinder Theme WoW Clone you so desperately want and feel the game should be.
The Pathfinder Online that Goblin Works is creating is the Pathfinder MMO We want, that is why we individuals in the Goblin Squad Backed the Kickstarter(s).
*edited to maintain a friendly atmosphere
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Jazz and Decius
You are both are right, my apologies, I edited the post, and edited it again to be even more friendly and less uh personal but sadly the second edit was past the 1hour marker.
I guess I was just a bit taken back by how upset some posts where despite the fact that what GW is doing is liberating MMOs from stale restrictive CPG (Class Playing Games) and giving us a real online RPG (Role Playing Game)