I've noticed that in pathfinder society, there are so few options for race and class, and all the unique ones are banned.
Then, looking farther, i realized they banned kobolds. Kobolds.
the lowest RP race in the game.
It's like they try and force you to play a boring as heck charceter.
I can't think of one good reason to ban kobolds...
I have no idea. I probobly shouldn't have posted it-
Really, i just want to know if anyone has any idea why kobolds would be banned.
I should have made that clearer.
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They were banned because they aren't a normal race you would find around town, as were most races that are uncommon. You can't play a goblin because usually goblins are out being goblins. It also keeps a certain level of normal going on at the table I would think. It wants to create a sense of being in a certain setting.
Does that make sense? Btw, society questions should probably go in the society forum.
Edit: I should add it has nothing to do with game balance.
Didn't know there was one..
And goblins are allowed.
Goblins: all alternate racial traits, goblin discoveries, favored class options, archetypes, equipment, feats, magic items, and spells except vomit twin are legal for play.
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I'd like to hope kobolds were banned for the same reason there are seat belt laws - to try and protect those who don't know any better.
Heh. I was hoping to use a kobold because it was weak and craven.
Didn't know there was one..
And goblins are allowed.Goblins: all alternate racial traits, goblin discoveries, favored class options, archetypes, equipment, feats, magic items, and spells except vomit twin are legal for play.
Takes a boon. Goblins are kind of allowed. To about 10ish people? They certainly aren't the norm. Similarly, kitsune, Wayang, and Nagaji are all from boons, but aren't what your going to see very often.
As I said, not about game mechanics. More about setting.
Ah... So overall, you can't really play anything interesting.
I don't see the appeal of this....
Can you remove a thread? This one probably needs it.
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For kobolds in particular, power level has nothing to do with it. It's more about the theme of the campaign. It's a campaign that focuses on the (in-universe) Golarion organization known as the Pathfinder Society, with all the PCs being field agents of that organization. To my knowledge, kobold Pathfinders are nonexistent (or close to it), so it doesn't make sense for PCs to be kobolds. The (in-universe) Society is based in the Inner Sea, so the vast majority of its agents are humans and Core races. There are some tieflings, aasimar and tengu, so those are also allowed if you have the appropriate books for them. Some more exotic races (like dhampir, kitsune, and so forth) are present but rare, so those are restricted in number (you can win a sheet that lets you play one) to reflect their smaller in-world representation in the organization.
As for forcing you to play "boring as heck" characters, the campaign allows material from over 100 products outside of the Core Rulebook. If that constitutes "boring as heck" for you, seek professional help.
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It really does-
For me, race is everything- playing a core race, or a race common to play... It's just odd. I'll never undrestand the appeal of being "normal".
Nonetheless, can you delete a thread? This one needs it.
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MrSin hit it on the head. They're trying to preserve the sense of "normalcy" in the world of Golarion.
In most civilized cities in the game world, kobolds, goblins, orcs, and other inherently evil races can't walk down the street without being attacked, arrested, and/or killed just for being members of their race. And given how evil they usually are, there's a good reason for that.
That sort of thing happening when you're trying to complete an adventure that takes place in one of those cities can seriously disrupt the plot of the adventure. The GM ignoring the player race and not having the regular city folk react that way to a PC of an evil race would disrupt what we know about the game world.
As for goblins being legal, that was a one time exception for a small number of people who won the goblin boons as prizes at GenCon last year. And from what I've seen, those aren't being handled all that well in actual game play. As much as it could be cool to play a goblin PC, I'm actually hoping they never open up goblins for more people to play in PFS. A "We Be Goblins" adventure path, on the other hand, would be VERY cool.
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For me, race is everything- playing a core race, or a race common to play... It's just odd. I'll never undrestand the appeal of being "normal".
If "race is everything" in your desire to not be "normal"; if you feel it's impossible to be special or unique without being of a rare species; then honestly, you'll still be "normal" no matter what species you are. If you can't be enough without a rare race, you won't be enough with it either. (Having flashbacks of Cool Runnings now; please excuse the cheesiness.)
It really does-
For me, race is everything- playing a core race, or a race common to play... It's just odd. I'll never undrestand the appeal of being "normal".
Nonetheless, can you delete a thread? This one needs it.
You can still play plenty of odd races, just not certain odd races. tengu/assimar/tiefling are all legal, and you can always get a boon for a few more. You could also play a home game and play whatever you want or even make your own.
Also, you don't need to abort thread...
This was nothing more then a question of the appeal of the PFS. I don't understand it.
I'm gaming 2 home games already (grumble. Gaming is hard, and hardly worth it. I do it for some reason or another... Oh, right, i was the only one willing for one. The other... Probobly a moment of blatant insanity.
I'm in a player in a lv 16 getsalt hombrew campaign, with an ooze, a human (that causes magic to die on contact), a half-god fiend, someone who reincarnates every day into more races then even availbe, a creature that is basically a shape-sifting Phoenix, and a kobold who is really a mushroom living under the kobold's skin and is directly supported by an overdeity of madness that has limits by Devine politics on what he can actually do opts help.
I like to bring new and unque things to a table... Not something everyone else could have just as easily thought up.
Again, this is just me, in my insanity.
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You can bring a unique thing to the table, you just have to work within the rules. Saying you can't bring anything unique to PFS is insulting to everyone who plays it.
Yeah, but the rules seem to bear down to "core race, and one of the normal classes."
It doesn't seem unique. Maybe i just haven't played as a charceter that isn't so incredibly different.... Maybe it's better then it seems. But it doesn't look like it is, at least to me.
I don't mean to be insulting...
You can be human and be different. You see it all the time. Having to be a special kind of race is a bit limiting to yourself dontcha' think? That said, I don't entirely agree with all of PFS's rules myself, but I can still create a character with a backstory, goals, and make it different than the other people who show up at the local groups.
Yeah, I suppose.
I'm a rather... Diffrent... Human. And not in a good way...
Many people with tabletop hobbies are different or socially weird.
Anyways, you could play a guy with awesome tattoos, cool scars, unique looking armor, cool accessories, weird hair, missing a finger, weird weapon, all sorts of things. He could then have a backstory where he's even adopted by kobolds if you really wanted him to be. You could then use the classes to give him even more unique aspects, because not everyone at the table is going to make the same choices as you.
Assimar and Tiefling in particular have a very wide range of physical characteristics.
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This was nothing more then a question of the appeal of the PFS. I don't understand it.
I'm gaming 2 home games already (grumble. Gaming is hard, and hardly worth it. I do it for some reason or another... Oh, right, i was the only one willing for one. The other... Probobly a moment of blatant insanity.I'm in a player in a lv 16 getsalt hombrew campaign, with an ooze, a human (that causes magic to die on contact), a half-god fiend, someone who reincarnates every day into more races then even availbe, a creature that is basically a shape-sifting Phoenix, and a kobold who is really a mushroom living under the kobold's skin and is directly supported by an overdeity of madness that has limits by Devine politics on what he can actually do opts help.
I like to bring new and unque things to a table... Not something everyone else could have just as easily thought up.
Again, this is just me, in my insanity.
Ok, I'll bite. It sounds like you've got a bunch of custom races and odd situations that are totally customized. In a campaign with tens of thousands of players and GMs like PFS, how would you expect to keep things fair without some sort of standardization? Your version of insane customization would be too much to manage in PFS.
As for the appeal of PFS, that part's easy.
1. There are over 120 published adventures for PFS so far, most of which are well written and a lot of fun to play.
2. Being able to take your character to any convention or public game day and meet new people to play with.
3. The flexibility, even if playing with the same group every week, of just playing with whoever can make it that week, instead of having to coordinate what day is good for everyone as in a home campaign.
Yes, there are a few restrictions on what can be used, but almost every Paizo product is allowed for PFS use, at least in part. Races are probably the most heavily restricted thing, mostly to preserve versimilitude. But there are 10 playable races for everyone, and race boons that open up dozens more for a few people here and there. But that's still plenty of variety. I'm sure with the imagination you shown here, you could come up with an entertainingly unique character, even if they happen to be human or some other "generic" race.
Many people with tabletop hobbies are different or socially weird.
Anyways, you could play a guy with awesome tattoos, cool scars, unique looking armor, cool accessories, weird hair, missing a finger, weird weapon, all sorts of things. He could then have a backstory where he's even adopted by kobolds if you really wanted him to be. You could then use the classes to give him even more unique aspects, because not everyone at the table is going to make the same choices as you.
Assimar and Tiefling in particular have a very wide range of physical characteristics.
I have been diagnosed with 3 diffrent mental disorders. Insanity is fun. ^_^
Anyway, yeah, I get it.
Not to mention the fact that Golarion has a multitude of human nationalities, each with their own flavor. A Cheliaxian is incredibly different in outlook from an Andorian or Taldorian human, and is rather different from most other established fantasy nationalities. Unique doesn't have to have horns, or a tail, or be immune to an element, or anything like that. Unique just has to be memorable.
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Yeah, I suppose.
I'm a rather... Diffrent... Human. And not in a good way...
There is a certain point where you realize that using race to individualize yourself has its limits and stops being special. This is something that some players of mine have had to adapt to because in my campaign setting there is very little that is not normal, as most every humanoid in the world is a playable race and even some things that are not humanoids are playable (such as drider and planetouched).
Yet the ones that actually stand out in all games are those individualized by their character rather than there mere existence. I'd pay far more attention to the human with a vivid description, motivations, history, and quirky nuances than Billy the Snowbold (clearly a white and blue kobold that grows wild from vines found only in the arctic and only on the second tuesday during a solstice atop the corpse of a misplaced fire giant, found in splatbook #3,354, where their racial traits are noted and their favored class is gnome).
inherently evil races
*eye twitch*
There is no such thing. Any sapient being can choose its own moral and ethical path in life.
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inherently evil races
*eye twitch*
There is no such thing. Any sapient being can choose its own moral and ethical path in life.
Not in Golarion, and many fantasy worlds include races that are inherently evil. There is at least one race that is, actually, inherently evil in Golarion: the Drow.
Demons and devils are also sapient beings in the world of Golarion, but I don't think you'll find anyone who will agree with you that they are not inherently evil. They are born to it the way a fish is born to water.
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I play in PFS, a homebrew campaign and Jade Regent. Each has advantages and drawbacks.
In my opinion, PFS has a number of advantages. No one is locked into the GM role. Anyone with a basic familiarity with the rules can take a turn as the GM. PFS play is ideal when the players vary session-to-session. Bob, Carol, Ted, Alice and Pat might show up this week, but Pat, Chris, Robin, Terry and Bill show up next week. So they run Assault on the Kingdom of the Impossible the first time, and The Goblin Guild the second time. Terry travels often for business, and finds PFS games in Burlington VT, Chicago IL and Allentown PA. Terry can play with the same character in all three places.
Some prefer PFS, others prefer homebrew. No one is wrong.
EDIT
The major advantage to homebrew games is flexibility. After all, the original AD&D books pointed out that the descriptions were meant to be guidelines, not hard-and-fast rules. That flexibility is lost in PFS, where consistency of rules is necessary. I gather that flexibility is paramount to the OP.
inherently evil races
*eye twitch*
There is no such thing. Any sapient being can choose its own moral and ethical path in life.
Not in Golarion, and many fantasy worlds include races that are inherently evil. There is at least one race that is, actually, inherently evil in Golarion: the Drow.
Demons and devils are also sapient beings in the world of Golarion, but I don't think you'll find anyone who will agree with you that they are not inherently evil. They are born to it the way a fish is born to water.
Of course we have...what's his name, Ragathiel or somesuch? The risen fiend?
If you are sentient you have choice. Without choice there is no alignment. You do not have alignment without choice. If you do then you should remove good/evil and replace it with blue/orange because you have stripped any meaning of alignment other than color-coded oppositions.
It's the heroic deeds you do, and the grand adventures you have, that make you unique. Not the race you play, or the class.
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Furthermore, if a creature is evil because it is, then it is not evil. It merely is. If something that is is evil because it is evil then it is evil. If things that are are evil because they are usually evil, that is also fine. But evil because it is is not fine or else you lose what it is to be evil and merely are what is.
It's the heroic deeds you do, and the grand adventures you have, that make you unique. Not the race you play, or the class.
Except we all go on the same adventures as pathfinders, goes a little differently between the groups, but sanctioned modules...
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In response to OP: all campaigns have an inherent style that is partially reflected in options regarding character development. You appear to gravitate toward rather extreme character voices. That's all fine and good. Play what you like and like what you play. If PFS is too restrictive for you, maybe it isn't for you.
Some people gravitate toward the desire to play particular character types and seek those opportunity to play them. Others gravitate toward campaigns due to the playing opportunities and then select character options that are available in that campaign.
Except we all go on the same adventures as pathfinders, goes a little differently between the groups, but sanctioned modules...
Oh, sorry, my bad. I thought you had options on how you went about playing the modules. So how does that work? Does the GM hand out scripts for each type of class? The Wizard player must follow the exact Wizard script for that adventure? Same for a Barbarian or what have you?
I guess, like making a movie. The players all must play their roles, to make the exact story outcome that the module calls for.
If that were true, (and I know it's not) then PFS would indeed be mighty boring.
Now that's just taking an extreme. Hyperbole isn't the best response.
I meant that we do all end up in the same place and the same adventure, different characters and group though. Modules don't make the best characterization if you want to be unique.
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@MrSin: Even with the same module/scenario, though, they can play out vastly differently, depending on party composition.
I know that my experience playing You Only Die Twice is probably going to be much different than almost any other groups, simply because the primary PCs involved included both my trip/disarm Fighter build, and a consumables-oriented Rogue with good social skills.
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There is a ton of differences in how a particular adventure can play out. I know of one PFS scenario that has the possibility of up to 7 combats in it, but only one of them is actually mandatory. The other 6 can be avoided, depending on how the group plays it. One of those usually is avoided, but I think every group I've GMed in that adventure (3 so far) has fought all of the others.
That's an extreme example, but even if you do fight the same fights as another group playing the same adventure, things can go completely differently. Maybe a group of neutrals kills all the bad guys, while a group of good aligned characters takes prisoners. Or maybe the good aligned guys are the ones who want to play judge, jury, and executioner on the evil doers, while the neutrals are willing to cut them a deal.
The adventures may have a basic plot outline, but the exact details will always vary.
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In regards to the ability to create unique characters in PFS, allow me to present a few of mine:
1) A half-orc cleric of Shelyn (the love deity) who is also a Taldan baron. He generally wears a top hat and monocle and tends to lose his temper in a very British way.
2) A human gunslinger private eye - he's based on film noir contrivances and tends to monologue during the first round or so of combat.
3) A human Andoran politician who seeks material for his reelection campaign while doing missions for the Society.
You can have a lot of fun with character building in PFS - race is one of the least concerns for me when building a character. If I'm going to base a character off of any mechanical factor, it's probably going to be deity or class.
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That game all depends on the DM. Some are amazing some are garbage. There are some DMs I refuse to play with because I do not enjoy the game with them.
Saying you are limited by only being able to select 10 different races 18 different classes, with each class having numerous variants. Is pretty silly.
If this is a complaint about not being one race or another. Then that is also silly to say "I don't understand PFS's appeal.". Basically you critize the entire game because you do not get the one thing you want?
You do not have to be normal. My next character is all about his animal companion and he will claim the companion is the pathfinder and he is just the translator for his bird.
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Ah... So overall, you can't really play anything interesting.
I don't see the appeal of this....
No, it doesn't appeal to you.
For me, who has been in the military the past twelve years, moving around, unable to keep a stable group, Pathfinder Society allows me to sit down with any group of people, play for four hours, and then take my character on to another table and have a continuity of sorts.
I don't mind playing dwarves and tieflings and half-elves. I don't need something exotic to be interested in my character. So it appeals to me.
I hope you have luck finding the games that appeal to you.
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I read about your second character, Netopalis. My detective noir guy is a half-elf Detective-Bard; he has ranks in Oration to justify his self-narrations, except for when he lapses into haiku or limericks.
But yeah, in regards to your original post, I wish there would be a PFS kobold boon, especially with Kobolds of Golarion out. There's even a tribe of kobolds who live in the sewers beneath Absalom, and a PFS scenario dealing with them. It's the perfect back story hook!
Though it is a lot fun to play as someone rare, especially if it can surprise people or even have other characters respond with, "Wait, you're a what?" there's more to creativity than just making a character who's an X. It's similar to refusing to play as a barbarian because you've always played as a wizard. Sure, your guy could introduce himself with, "I'm a vashkanya!" but you could also try, "I'm a naturalist who spent the past few years wandering through the River Kingdoms, ever since I left the City of Strangers when I learned that cult activity just wasn't for me." What you've done and what you're doing provides much more texture than just having yellow eyes and toxic snot, though those can add an intrigue of their own.
At the very least, if most of your characters have been of unusual heritage, you could always try to do something different for a change, and be a regular human being ;)
the following PFS races should be opened up without a boon, most of them could pass off as pallete swapped human with enough effort and should be good enough to allow (maybe with an odd hair or eye color at worst)
- Suli (think human, physical features may change w/ elemental assault)
- Fetchling (think albinos and the like, dhampir steriotypes also provide reasonable colorations)
- Undine (human with blues and greens for hair/eyes and moist skin)
- Ifrit (human with reddish hued hair, and reddish hued eyes, warm to the touch)
- Sylph (a lithe and wispy human w/ pale skin and lighter hair/eyes)
- Oread (a human with pigmentations reminiscent of earth, there are a variety of rocks, gems, and plants that can be used to gain a human enough appearance with maybe odd hair and eyecolors, topaz and limestome make great skincolors for this)
- Samsaran (humanish enough, pale, sickly and fragile, shades of blue and purple for hair and eyes aren't too odd in a fantasy word.)
- Changeling (human with heterochromia, doesn't stand out too badly.)
- Dhampir (pale human, may be albino. elongated canines are hardly an issue for it is a feasible human disorder. just don't take the blood drinking feats and you will be fine)
a lot of these races can be passed off as human and should be allowed merely for diversity.
i have no issues with nonstandard lineages, unless the only defining factor was "my grandma is a succubus?" or "my mommy is a vampire?"
inherently evil races
*eye twitch*
There is no such thing. Any sapient being can choose its own moral and ethical path in life.
Not in Golarion, and many fantasy worlds include races that are inherently evil. There is at least one race that is, actually, inherently evil in Golarion: the Drow.
Demons and devils are also sapient beings in the world of Golarion, but I don't think you'll find anyone who will agree with you that they are not inherently evil. They are born to it the way a fish is born to water.
Not to argue with a Venture-Captain, but...
Doesn't the description from the ARG specifically say that drow are not inherently evil, but their culture invariably socialises them to be so? I seem to recall that... Could be wrong.
Here it says:
While they are not born evil, malignancy is deep-rooted in their culture and society, and nonconformists rarely survive for long.
But I guess that's the generic PF assumption, rather than Golarion canon - do they differ? I also seem to recall JJ saying non-evil drow were possible in Golarion, but he wasn't interested in exploring that trope.
Also I think there is, or will be, a redeemed demon/devil or two in Golarion canon, maybe an AP? So they obviously have the power to choose also, it's just that 99.999999% don't.
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inherently evil races
*eye twitch*
There is no such thing. Any sapient being can choose its own moral and ethical path in life.
Not in Golarion, and many fantasy worlds include races that are inherently evil. There is at least one race that is, actually, inherently evil in Golarion: the Drow.
Demons and devils are also sapient beings in the world of Golarion, but I don't think you'll find anyone who will agree with you that they are not inherently evil. They are born to it the way a fish is born to water.
Not to argue with a Venture-Captain, but...
Doesn't the description from the ARG specifically say that drow are not inherently evil, but their culture invariably socialises them to be so? I seem to recall that... Could be wrong.
Here it says:
While they are not born evil, malignancy is deep-rooted in their culture and society, and nonconformists rarely survive for long.But I guess that's the generic PF assumption, rather than Golarion canon - do they differ? I also seem to recall JJ saying non-evil drow were possible in Golarion, but he wasn't interested in exploring that trope.
Also I think there is, or will be, a redeemed demon/devil or two in Golarion canon, maybe an AP? So they obviously have the power to choose also, it's just that 99.999999% don't.
But remember, they had to make the ARG as setting neutral as possible, so while the ARG may say that, they have mentioned in the Campaign Setting that the Drow are inherently evil, because of the way they became Drow.