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So it's not CoDzilla in name, only in practice.
In addition to wielding considerable magical power that rivals that of the other reality-twisting classes - Wizards and Sorcerers, the other big reality-twister being maybe the Erudite - CoDzilla also receives better combat skills and abilities, such as the ability to wear heavy armor (for Clerics), better base attack bonus progression and, in the case of Druids, the combination of the wild shape class feature and the Natural Spell feat (which allows the druid to cast spells even while shapeshifted, when they already have considerable ability score buffs.) By proper application of its powers (and a halfway-decent selection of feats and domains,) CoDzilla is able to dish out massive melee damage and take punishment to a degree that greatly surpasses regular fighter or barbarian-types and equals (maybe even surpasses) ubercharger, shock trooper, hulking hurler and other full-BAB builds. Meanwhile, one still enjoys additional advantages such as full casting (which as anyone with any experience with the game knows is immensely powerful, especially the kinds of full casting that don't have a limited number of known spells), throwing the game out of balance.
1) They rival other spellcasters with spell-access that comes around the same time (and sometimes earlier than full casters), with cheaper spells, and a spell list that has been cherry picked for the best of the best.
2) They have a d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, lots of skills, and the ability to cast in armor without issues (which opens up mithral breastplates in core and mithral celestial plate with expanded borders, which is the equivalent of casting in heavy armor).
3) Their eidolon by itself measures in DPR Olympics against other martials. At lower levels they have no problems attacking alongside their eidolon to not only provide multiple attacks but increase DPR by a significant margin (they can even use longspears). By higher levels their summons / simulacrums / bound outsiders allow them to exceed the meatshield role and rival almost anyone at damage (this is due to a combination of both plentiful HP sponges AND the ability to place them efficiently to best protect allies).
4) At high levels they have world altering reality shaping powers including the planar binding spells and simulacrum which are probably the most powerful spells in the game as written because the simulacrum only loses abilities based on HD (most creatures you'll want to make simulacrums of will retain their racial qualities such as SLAs, auras, special attacks, and so forth. None of which is directly based on HD for more than duration or save DCs).
Throughout their career they have access to battlefield control spells, buffing spells, summoning spells, illusion spells (including staples such as blur and invisibility), a ton of mobility spells, and while they have a limited list of spells known they have access to all of this through scrolls and similar items (generally at a drastic discount compared to other full-casters).
5) They can do all of this at the same time and it gets more and more powerful at high levels. At low levels they are a pair of pseudo-martials who use spells like mage armor + enlarge person. By 4th level they're casting create pit and haste regularly to buff the entire party and remove annoyances from the battlefield. By 7th level they're casting spells like black tentacles, dimension door and greater invisibility. By 10th we're up to save or die spells like baleful polymorph, or lesser planar binding (probably more useful) and all day usefulness in the form of overland flight. At this point we can begin summoning minions to supplement our abilities (such as having earth elemental scouts 24/7, etc). By 13th level we have simulacrum and planar binding, and we pick up spell turning and greater teleport by 15th level. At 16th level we get access to 8th and 9th level spells before full casters do (because our spell list and stupid) like binding, greater planar binding, protection from spells, and maze.
6) I haven't actually mentioned in this post that all of this and the eidolon is expendable and you have a wide variety of new meatshields to fall back on through your Summoning SLA which is superior to every other version of Summon Monster available to other casters (it's much harder to interrupt, can be used without making noise, lasts far longer, etc). Summons which effectively expand your spell list and casting potential by a truly huge margin.
Example: At 7th level I cast summon monster IV to summon a Hound Archon fr 70 rounds. He can cast aid (CL 6th) at-will, so he buffs the entire party with +1 to hit and saves vs fear and about 10 temporary HP. Then he has a constant detect-evil and magic circle against evil effect which can be used as a party-ward against evil creatures, spells, mind-control, and the like. Finally he's also got 39 HP and DR 10/evil, SR 15, immunity to electricity and petrification, as well as a pretty decent attack routine (which is considered good-aligned for piercing DR). I could summon him up in any situation that I wanted to provide any of these benefits to my allies, or to solo enemies like medusas, gorgons, and basilisks (a basilisk has no hope of defeating this summon so I could summon it and close my eyes while he kills the thing).
Or I could summon a mephit to get a number of SLAs and a mini-meat shield (mephits are small but they have DR 5/magic which is perfect vs mooks and/or monsters, and fast healing 2). If we're fleeing the balrog inside the Mines of Moria and the goblins are shooting at us, summon a mephit, have it cast wind wall and then have the mephit fly to attack the goblins while we're immune to arrows. Win/win.
Or I could summon a clestial or fiendish lion, or 1d3 aurochs and have them mow enemies down for heavy damage (1d3 aurochs is an average of 2, which means around 44 hp worth of meat shields spread around the battlefield, each with a trample attack with a high reflex DC, and their attacks are very damaging with augment summoning.
'Cause options are good.
By 9th level I'm summoning stuff like Bralani Azata who are just barrels of fun. Healing SLAs, blasting SLAs, +1 scimitar attacks, +1 composite longbow attacks, and functions as a potent interrogator for captives because it has charm person at-will and lasts long enough that we can just tie the victim down and spam it until they fail their saving throw. Or we can summon other useful things.
Just keeps getting better.
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So there's not CoDzilla. They're just a class that has pseudo-full casting with some of the greatest spells in the game cherry picked onto their spell list, a pet that is widely considered to rival martials at a variety of combat tasks, stamina and endurance, and can solve almost any problem with its class feature - often a single class feature - with game-changing world-altering powers at higher levels, who can fight moderately well on its own and has a lot of buff spells that are great for himself, his pet, and his party, the ability to spontaneously and rapidly drop meatshields/casters into the mix, early access to a lot of powerful effects due to their spell list, is excellent at maximizing action economy. And can do all of this... at the same time.
But it's not CoDzilla. Remember that. It's not CoDzilla, because clearly neither C nor D is in it's name. Well I'm gonna call it Summonzilla. Summonzilla does it all and he does it all at the same time. He gets many of the best arcane spells at the same pace as arcane casters except he does it while also being a martial at low levels, and a healer later on, and having more skills than you, and he can do the blasting thing too (if indirectly), with battlefield control and more. At the same time, but he's not CoDzilla, he's Summonzilla!
Available in Summonzilla+ with the Master Summoner archetype where you get to have a less-meat-shield eidolon who serves as your amazing skill-cohort (and is still a meatshield to protect you or your allies).
another (dumb) question, sorry about this but i am a pretty novice of pathfinder.
summoning I, the summoner can call an eagle
it has 3 attacks listed, at +3 for 1d4 each
it's the eagle entitled to do all the 3 attack any round at no penalty ?
thanks
If he full attacks yes, and the summoner can summon in a flock, they all full attack/smite, then on the next turn full attack again, summon a new flock, and then full attack with the new flock.
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another (dumb) question, sorry about this but i am a pretty novice of pathfinder.
summoning I, the summoner can call an eagle
it has 3 attacks listed, at +3 for 1d4 each
it's the eagle entitled to do all the 3 attack any round at no penalty ?
thanks
At this point you might be better opening a new thread to get your questions asked and fresh sets of eyes. This one has almost degenerated into the mother-mentioning stage.
In answer to your question, though,.... Pathfinder distinguishes between a "full-round" action, and a "standard" action. As a full round action, you get all your attacks at the listed values, which I believe is +3 for each attack for a summoned eagle. But that takes your entire round and you can't move.
If you move, you can only take a "standard" action which is one attack. So the eagle could either fly up to me and attack, or it could start its turn next to me an attack, attack, and attack.
the simulacrum only loses abilities based on HD (most creatures you'll want to make simulacrums of will retain their racial qualities such as SLAs, auras, special attacks, and so forth. None of which is directly based on HD for more than duration or save DCs).
While I agree in general, I'd like to note that this specific thing is a matter of interpretation.
Note this line:"The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)."
It can very well be interpreted, without going against the RAW, that created simulacra will have special abilities that are deemed "appropriate" for a creature of it's level by the DM (if it is, a likely general method of determination would be "does it replicate a spell higher than (1/2HD)+1?). This is, like a handful of other spells and feats (leadership and major illusion for example) a spell that is very much dependant on how the DM determines the spell will work.
So it's not CoDzilla in name, only in practice.
No. In practice it falls short of CODzilla.
In addition to wielding considerable magical power that rivals that of the other reality-twisting classes - Wizards and Sorcerers, the other big reality-twister being maybe the Erudite - CoDzilla also receives better combat skills and abilities, such as the ability to wear heavy armor (for Clerics), better base attack bonus progression and, in the case of Druids, the combination of the wild shape class feature and the Natural Spell feat (which allows the druid to cast spells even while shapeshifted, when they already have considerable ability score buffs.) By proper application of its powers (and a halfway-decent selection of feats and domains,) CoDzilla is able to dish out massive melee damage and take punishment to a degree that greatly surpasses regular fighter or barbarian-types and equals (maybe even surpasses) ubercharger, shock trooper, hulking hurler and other full-BAB builds. Meanwhile, one still enjoys additional advantages such as full casting (which as anyone with any experience with the game knows is immensely powerful, especially the kinds of full casting that don't have a limited number of known spells), throwing the game out of balance.
You can cherry pick (bold) what you want. It clearly states that a CODzilla is a full caster.
1) They rival other spellcasters with spell-access that comes around the same time (and sometimes earlier than full casters), with cheaper spells, and a spell list that has been cherry picked for the best of the best.
No no no. He falls short in the spell casting. You can keep repeating the whole early spell access all you want. Sure he gets a few good spells from higher spell levels. But he also caps at 6th level spells. He has delayed Spell level progression. He has less spell slots. And he doesn't have access to MOST of the game breaking spells. Summons dont count. They have low caster levels and low DC's. And speaking of DC's... the summoner falls short on that too. Thats on top of the fact that he has zero offensive spells. Strike One
2) They have a d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, lots of skills, and the ability to cast in armor without issues (which opens up mithral breastplates in core and mithral celestial plate with expanded borders, which is the equivalent of casting in heavy armor).
Mithral breastplate is not Heavy Armor and its not the HUGE Natural Armor bonus that Druids had. Otherwise sure... he has the same HP and BAB of Clerics and Druids... o wait. Clerics and Druids could buff their HP and BAB... Summoners cant. Strike Two
3) Their eidolon by itself measures in DPR Olympics against other martials. bla bla bla...
DPR has nothing to do with being CODzilla. Clerics dont even have pets. NEXT
4) At high levels they have world altering reality shaping powers including the planar binding spells and simulacrum which are probably the most powerful spells in the game as written because the simulacrum only loses abilities based on HD (most creatures you'll want to make simulacrums of will retain their racial qualities such as SLAs, auras, special attacks, and so forth. None of which is directly based on HD for more than duration or save DCs).Throughout their career they have access to battlefield control spells, buffing spells, summoning spells, illusion spells (including staples such as blur and invisibility), a ton of mobility spells, and while they have a limited list of spells known they have access to all of this through scrolls and similar items (generally at a drastic discount compared to other full-casters).
And again. They have delayed spell level access. They have lower DCs. They have fewer spell slots. They dont get most of the really crazy spells. Do they have a great list... yes. Are they full casters. No. Errr.. thats still Strike one.
5) They can do all of this at the same time and it gets more and more powerful at high levels. At low levels they are a pair of pseudo-martials who use spells like mage armor + enlarge person. By 4th level they're casting create pit and haste regularly to buff the entire party and remove annoyances from the battlefield. By 7th level they're casting spells like black tentacles, dimension door and greater invisibility. By 10th we're up to save or die spells like baleful polymorph, or lesser planar binding (probably more useful) and all day usefulness in the form of overland flight. At this point we can begin summoning minions to supplement our abilities (such as having earth elemental scouts 24/7, etc). By 13th level we have simulacrum and planar binding, and we pick up spell turning and greater teleport by 15th level. At 16th level we get access to 8th and 9th level spells before full casters do (because our spell list and stupid) like binding, greater planar binding, protection from spells, and maze.
Again. You just tried to make the same point as number 4. They have a good list. They still fall short of a full caster. They dont pick up 3rd level spells till 7th level... when full casters are using 4th level spells. They dont get 5th level spells till 13th while full casters are using 7th level spells. By the time they have a decent amount of 6th level spells the full casters have 9th level spells. Yes they get some early access but that doesn't help with the lack of spell slots. They also have lower DCs. You also point out Summons spell access which is usually inferior because of Caster level and DC. On top of that you point out spells that are rarely used because they have very expensive components (Bindings and Gate for example). STILL Strike one.
6) I haven't actually mentioned in this post that all of this and the eidolon is expendable and you have a wide variety of new meatshields to fall back on through your Summoning SLA which is superior to every other version of Summon Monster available to other casters (it's much harder to interrupt, can be used without making noise, lasts far longer, etc). Summons which effectively expand your spell list and casting potential by a truly huge margin.
This is their one advantage. They get Minute per level casting and standard action casting of Summon Monster. Which has nothing to do with being a CODzilla. It adds power and utility. They have a nice melee pet with summons to fall back on. Great. But They are not melee powerhouses. They dont get the buffs of clerics or the wildshape of druids to compete with melee. Their pet can. A druid... he AND his pet are the melee. Clerics... they dont need no stinking pet! They put on fullplate like a man and go beat on people, turn around and use Heal, and if they get bored might cast Overwhelming Presence or Implosion. They themselves are not melee powerhouses. Strike Three.
While I agree with his post (It can't be CoDZilla! Because it doesn't start with C or D) it definitely feels like summonerzilla fitting the same type of problem that CoDZilla presented.
Full Casting + Full BAB being turbo buffed so much that the other players are just side kicks, and also being fully capable of shenanigans because full casting? Not quiet CoDzilla, but I see an argument for all those summons, however the summons are 3/4 BAB(sometimes caster, sometimes size makes up for a lot), and he can only have one out at once who he may very well be devoted to buffing(SR?), and he certainly doesn't have a series of all day buffs going on. Not sure how much Longevity the Summoner has vs the 9 level casters, I'd imagine its less and that he has less slots to spare, but near endgame it always seems like you can just keep going and going.
How are you getting 15+ gates per day? Its 3+Cha and its not on the sumoner spell list.
How are you getting 15+ gates per day? Its 3+Cha and its not on the sumoner spell list.
With Cha 34+
How are you getting 15+ gates per day? Its 3+Cha and its not on the sumoner spell list.With Cha 34+
Which... You can't get?(how did he get favorite anyways...)
Anyways, I'm not sure if you can say "Summoning is better than full casting!" When full casters get summons too. With less limitations.
How are you getting 15+ gates per day? Its 3+Cha and its not on the sumoner spell list.With Cha 34+Which... You can't get?(how did he get favorite anyways...)
Anyways, I'm not sure if you can say "Summoning is better than full casting!" When full casters get summons too. With less limitations.
Well, SLA have some adventages. Like not paying the components. Specially usefull with very expensive spells like Gate.
Other than that, everybody can get 34 in their main stat at level 20. It's 18 starting, +6 headband, +5 from level ups, +5 from a book. That's 34, not counting the racial bonus (could be 36 with a race with +2 to Cha). It could be even more (with profane bonus from a succubus, for example)
Or Master Summoner with 30 cha. Which is doable.
I think, like with tiers, there are some disagreements/misunderstanding of what a CoDzilla is.
To me it has full casting, and is PERSONALLY a melee monster that outshines the regular melee classes. A summoner can, personally. be a melee monster, by going synthesist. (dunno about outshining the meleers though), but isn't a full caster. A summoner can, sorta, simulate what a full caster can, by using his summon monster SLAs, but then he hasn't his Eidolon on, and if he can have it out, his Eidolon is fairly gimped.
In short, no, a summoner is not a CoDzilla. A powerful class? Undoubtedly. As powerful as one of the full caster classes? Debatable, but it really isn't germane to this discussion.
Is this CoDzilla thing limited to *only* the class? I ask my Master Summoner is also a natural lycanthrope and he can pwn face in melee.
Unless they say they do have material components, like a Summoner's Gate SLA.
SLAs have no components which including material. The major gold cost from Gate is a repercussion of casting the spell and having to haggle for services and not from the spell itself.
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*carries in a box from another thread*
I'm just going to leave this here
*sets it down in this thread*
. . .It's comparing a guy with a bicycle with someone who can summon angels
A called creature can ask for the destruction of a kingdom in payment for its aid. It's a blankcheck that can easily exceed 10,000gp.
Also.
A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally.
Even if the spell adds one it is not needed as it's an SLA.
So it's not CoDzilla in name, only in practice.No. In practice it falls short of CODzilla.
I haven't seen how, and I've run for all cleric parties. :P
You can cherry pick (bold) what you want. It clearly states that a CODzilla is a full caster.
Yeah, because Clerics and Druids were full casters (and still are). Summoners are full-casters disguised as bards. A good disguise too since people insist they aren't full casters (despite grabbing all their spells at roughly the same level as full casters and often earlier).
No no no. He falls short in the spell casting. You can keep repeating the whole early spell access all you want. Sure he gets a few good spells from higher spell levels. But he also caps at 6th level spells. He has delayed Spell level progression. He has less spell slots. And he doesn't have access to MOST of the game breaking spells. Summons dont count. They have low caster levels and low DC's. And speaking of DC's... the summoner falls short on that too. Thats on top of the fact that he has zero offensive spells. Strike One
You haven't looked at the summoner very well have you?
- First off, almost all the summoner's spells are good ones and almost all of them are higher level spells squeezed into a lower level slot.- Second, his 6th level spell slot cap is an advantage when it's filled with 8th and 9th level spells, because it means scrolls are cheaper, and it's easier to load up on bonus spells (it takes a 28 Charisma to get +1 9th level spell, but a 22 to get +1 6th, and a 30 nets him +2 to +3 spells per level). He gets better returns on Rings of Wizardry as well (it's really nice to get tons of 5th and 6th level spellcasting for the cost of a 4th level Ring of Wizardry), and gets paid huge when it comes to metamagic rods (he never needs to use a greater rod on any of his spells and can get a ton of amazing spell effects with lesser rods).
- Third, he has less spell slots but more meaningful spells. He does have only 5 + bonus spells per spell level per day (so by 20th level somewhere around 7-8/day each). That's plenty, because then he also has some 3 + Charisma (or 5 + Charisma) uberspells that are equivalent to the highest level spell being cast at his given level, and the spell he casts is one that can replicate tons of other spells and has a huge variety of uses.
- Fourth, aving throw DCs are at most 3 points lower than a wizard of equal level assuming all things equal (that is if he's using a 9th level spell in a 6th level slot). Of course, saving throw DCs aren't a measure of CoDzilla either, and honestly I'd take a -1 hit to most spells and up to a -3 hit on my highest DCs for everything they get.
- Fifth, what spell list are you talking about? Summoners are loaded with offensive spells. I'm not sure if you noticed but they get SUMMON MONSTER and GATE as spell-like abilities. Oh, and spells like summon swarm, the pit trap spells, spike growth, wall of fire, etc, etc, etc. Perhaps you mean they don't get direct blasting spells like fireball (except that they do because many of their summons have spells like scorching ray, lightning bolt, telekinesis, holy smite/unholy blight, etc).
Of course, blasting spells are widely considered to be among the most underpowered and non-party-friendly spells you can wield (often rife with collateral damage that destroys your loot and stuff, especially since Pathfinder made all energy damage equally effective on objects, meaning not even cold damage is a safe bet anymore). Clerics and Druids aren't loaded with blasting spells (druids are but they are a different kind of blaster). It wasn't blasting spells that made CoDzilla.
*scratches off the strike graffiti*
Mithral breastplate is not Heavy Armor and its not the HUGE Natural Armor bonus that Druids had. Otherwise sure... he has the same HP and BAB of Clerics and Druids... o wait. Clerics and Druids could buff their HP and BAB... Summoners cant. Strike Two
Actually mithral breastplate's not much different, especially when Dexterity modifiers are accounted for (and with planar binding and simulacrum you'll be getting your inherent modifiers around 13th level). Of course if you're using summoner then non-core material is on the table and mithral celestial full-plate is a good option.
*damn these ill conceived graffiti strikes*
DPR has nothing to do with being CODzilla. Clerics dont even have pets. NEXT
Except that it has lots to do with being CoDzilla. See, CoDzilla could out fight the fighters. Even on the 1d4chan explanation of CoDzilla it mentions damage gained through buffs and other means. One of the defining characteristics of CoDzilla was that the class (be it cleric OR druid) could in most cases replace your melee martial combatant through the use of their class features (IE - buff up into a super warrior in the case of the cleric, or buff up yourself and your animal companion who was roughly on par with fighter types anyway). Summoner does this. He does it well.
Saying that the summoner must have every aspect of both Cleric and Druid to be akin to CoDzilla is both asinine and ignorant to what CoDzilla actually was and why.
And again. They have delayed spell level access. They have lower DCs. They have fewer spell slots. They dont get most of the really crazy spells. Do they have a great list... yes. Are they full casters. No. Errr.. thats still Strike one.
*ahem* Yeah, they do. There are few spells that are as reality warping as planar binding and simulacrum. And you say they have delayed access which is debatable. They actually have EARLY access for quite a few of their spells (for example, they get some 3rd level spells at 4th, a lot of 6th level spells as 4th level spells at 10th, and get 8th and 9th level spells at 16th level which is again +1 level earlier than full casters). Most of their spells the DCs don't matter much on, nor are DCs integral to being CoDzilla (or even influencing since most CoDzilla builts revolved around buffing the crap out of yourself). And they get the craziest of spells (and even get the no-save-just-suck Maze spell).
Again. You just tried to make the same point as number 4. They have a good list. They still fall short of a full caster. They dont pick up 3rd level spells till 7th level... when full casters are using 4th level spells.
Showing you clearly haven't studied the summoner at all. What makes this rebuttal hilarious is that the summoner DOES have 4th level spells at 7th level. Look at their list!
Black Tentacles (4th), Charm Monster (4th), Dimension Door (4th), Dimensional Anchor (4th), Mass Enlarge Person (4th), Fire Shield (4th), Greater Invisibility (4th), Locate Creature (4th), Minor Creation (4th), Mass Reduce Person (4th), Stoneskin (4th), Summon Monster IV (4th), Wall of Fire (4th), Wall of Ice (4th); with a smattering of great 3rd level spells on the list too.
This junk is hilarious. Oh, at at that same level, the summoner is probably casting some 7 or so 4th level spells on crack per day in addition to these other spells. :P
This is their one advantage. They get Minute per level casting and standard action casting of Summon Monster. Which has nothing to do with being a CODzilla. It adds power and utility.
Pause right here. I want everyone to read this back to themselves. "Which has nothing to do with being CoDzilla. It adds power AND utility. Why was CoDzilla CoDzilla? Oh, that's right. Because they were powerful and had an answer for pretty much everything. Here we have an example of why there is disagreement. You seem to believe in some sort of unseen fairy tale CoDzilla without understanding why CoDzilla was what it was. CoDzilla existed in core 3.5 and it grew fatter with each splat book (and thus maintained an edge against all the other fattening classes as well, keeping the status quo right where it was before, only with more inflation).
They have a nice melee pet with summons to fall back on. Great. But They are not melee powerhouses. They dont get the buffs of clerics or the wildshape of druids to compete with melee. Their pet can. A druid... he AND his pet are the melee.
A summoner can if he wants. He's no worse at melee than a rogue is (probably better actually). Especially with all the multi-target buffs he can easily apply (like haste at 4th level, mass bull's strength at 7th, etc). I personally enjoy the longspear since it is good for flanking, has solid damage, a x3 crit multiplier (essentially the same as a 19-20/x2) and gets 1.5 Strength damage, though hanging back and shooting can be a cool tactic for a lot of summoners (especially master summoners IMHO).
His pet is stronger than the druid's pound for pound. It has a better BAB and tends to have much stronger statistics. Especially if you use your evolution points right. It's also recyclable in ways the druid's pet is not. The druid cannot get a new pet for 24 hours and then has to retrain it for anything above and beyond bonus tricks, summoner's just rest and recall, or pop a scroll of purified calling (1,000 gp market price) to call them in the middle of an adventure without having to stop and rest (frankly I think having an extremely cheap raise dead for your main tank that comes with a heal spell attached is pretty baller).
And it doesn't really matter which is pulling more of the weight. If the druid was pushing 60% and his pet 40% and the eidolon 70% and his summoner 30%, the result is the same.
Clerics... they dont need no stinking pet! They put on fullplate like a man and go beat on people, turn around and use Heal, and if they get bored might cast Overwhelming Presence or Implosion. They themselves are not melee powerhouses. Strike Three.
I'm pretty sure that we won't see eye to eye on this. We have entirely different definitions of what CoDzilla is. A lot of your definitions are contradictory. Your argument basically comes off as "be exactly like both Clerics AND Druids or you are not CoDzilla" which is pretty asinine and grossly ignores what made them CoDzilla in the first place relative to...
A) the rest of the classes.
B) the rest of the game.
But like I said, it's fine. Summoners aren't CoDzilla. They're Summonzilla. Copywrited. :)
A called creature can ask for the destruction of a kingdom in payment for its aid. It's a blankcheck that can easily exceed 10,000gp.
Also.
A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally.Even if the spell adds one it is not needed as it's an SLA.The summoner ability explicitly states that for Gate you pay the material component when you call something.
So they pay the 10k like everyone else.
Then, like everyone else, they can start the bargaining for the actual service.
you are right. I overlooked that little sentence in summoner's ability tgat overrides regular SLA ruling.
Edit: This changes their tier lvl a bit, imho. I'll rate them tier 2 now
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So I guess it all comes down to the definition of CODZilla then. If you define Codzilla as "full progression spellcasting", then no, summoner has "on level" spells but is not that.
I personally considered CoDZilla one that could buff AND attack and had the insane AC. The eidilon has AC that far exceeds any CoDZilla has, and can full attack in the same round the Summoner buffs them. This is why I felt like it was "Close enough" to declare them a CoDZilla.
But no, nothing in existence is going to meet EVERY criteria. I still believe (know) they are a dominating force in any game they are allowed; and quite frankly I believe PFS should ban them; but its unlikely Paizo fully understands them.
But no, nothing in existence is going to meet EVERY criteria. I still believe (know) they are a dominating force in any game they are allowed; and quite frankly I believe PFS should ban them; but its unlikely Paizo fully understands them.
TBH, evdn the real codzillas lacked some stuff. 3.5 cleric didnt have a pet and 3.5 druid lacks the persistent divine nightticked buffs
TBH, evdn the real codzillas lacked some stuff. 3.5 cleric didnt have a pet and 3.5 druid lacks the persistent divine nightticked buffs
But no, nothing in existence is going to meet EVERY criteria. I still believe (know) they are a dominating force in any game they are allowed; and quite frankly I believe PFS should ban them; but its unlikely Paizo fully understands them.
That's because CoDzilla wasn't unstoppable, just amazingly powerful relative to everyone else. There was always something that was stronger at its niche (wizards for example are potentially stronger than clerics and druids both) but they were strong in all areas and could do all things, generally all the time.
I once ran for a party consisting entirely of clerics. Ran the Red Hand of Doom for them. Now this adventure-path type campaign had a reputation for being hard. And I had run it before for other parties and had it was a very difficult adventure for the most part. Until the clerics went in.
These were the "nerfed" Pathfinder clerics and I even beefed up most of the enemies in the book a bit to keep them to the Paizo standards (more HD, abilities, etc), didn't have divine favor to give them full BAB, etc. But that didn't really matter. They were all wearing good armor, all could heal, they could summon, and they produced minions (undead) that helped them. Each could slip in and out of a role as needed. One moment they could go from beating faces in melee to dropping a summon onto the field the next. They had amazing endurance because they could get most of the stuff done and quickly heal up on the cheap between encounters. They meleed adequately enough and with a strong enough AC that they could get through many encounters without the need to waste spells, and the encounters they did need their spells for they were ready to throw down.
The only weakness they had was that they were pretty light on skills. But since the entire party built their characters to compliment each other, they had a nice mixture of different skills spread across the team despite their 2 + Int mod allotment.
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Meanwhile, I basically posted an explanation for a druid soloing most adventure paths for quite a while (without using magic items). Same deal here really. What's amusing is that said druid and summoner would probably look similar in practice to most people.
I've played with Summoner in a few games now. Nothing broken or over powered about them. Every time it seemed like they were over powered a quick check of the rules revealed Edilon build mistakes. Fixed the mistake and things were normal again. The summoner is powerful class for sure but no CODZILLA.
So, can a summoner get 8 domains and switch them out for devotion feats of their choice like this or this. Can he turn into a flying t-rex riding a flying t-rex firing lazers? Does he have access to every spell on his list and the advantage of bloat on his side? Can he metamagic persist several buffs, including one that gives him Full BAB? Can he control an undead army or an army of animals? The best part is when you do all of those at once..(Sans the cleric only/druid only things, understandably.)
Nope, but neither could a core cleric or druid, but they were CoDzilla in core too. You didn't need greenbound summoning or acid-dripping raptors or divine metamagic to be CoDzilla in 3.5. CoDzilla was present in core. Just they got even more love through splat books (but all classes did, but they maintained their edge).
You're confusing CoDzilla with Splatzilla. CoDzilla was amazing because it was a Cleric or a Druid. Because that's all you need to be amazing. Summoner's on the same way. They do it with different methods but they do it none the less. Hence, Summonzilla. :P
A summoner is a very potent hybrid between cleric, druid, and sorcerer, with early spell access and a discount on magic items thrown into the mix. They also get to easily replace the skillmonkey of the group since they get 2 + Int modifier skill points and their eidolon gets 6 + Int modifier skill points (and 4 floating class). This is especially true for the master summoner (because you can go completely hax with your skills by giving the eidolon the Skilled evolution multiple times for every skill you want him to be boss at, and a +8 racial to any skill of your choice is very good).
You're confusing CoDzilla with Splatzilla. CoDzilla was amazing because it was a Cleric or a Druid. Because that's all you need to be amazing. Summoner's on the same way. They do it with different methods but they do it none the less. Hence, Summonzilla. :P
Ahh, I disagree with that. I think its two different opinions and neither are right though, so I can't really say much more than that.
also, note that only SOME druids/clerics can prepare all spells on their list, namely true neutral ones. Just like only half-elf sorcerers can cast any spell in the game.
Or Humans who blow a feat on Racial Heritage (Half-Elf)
Or Aasimaars who take Scion of Humanity than blow a feat on Racial Heritage (Half-Elf)
You're confusing CoDzilla with Splatzilla. CoDzilla was amazing because it was a Cleric or a Druid. Because that's all you need to be amazing. Summoner's on the same way. They do it with different methods but they do it none the less. Hence, Summonzilla. :PAhh, I disagree with that. I think its two different opinions and neither are right though, so I can't really say much more than that.
I suppose that's fair.
the only thing keeping the summoner from being a full caster is the amount of spell slots. i guess 3+cha mod extra summons per day compensates for that.
at 17th level with a 22 Cha and a feat
the summoner, is casting summon monster IX 16 times a day. a master summoner could do this `8 times a day with the same Cha.
the only thing keeping the summoner from being a full caster is the amount of spell slots. i guess 3+cha mod extra summons per day compensates for that.
at 17th level with a 22 Cha and a feat
the summoner, is casting summon monster IX 16 times a day. a master summoner could do this `8 times a day with the same Cha.
Not sure which feat you're talking about but my summoners tend to have at least a 30 Charisma by 17th level. They're spellcasters so I'm grabbing Craft Wondrous Item (+6 Charisma at 18,000 gp creation cost), grabbing my +5 inherent modifiers via planar binding or simulacrum (costs 12,500 gp in material costs). If I began with a 16 Charisma, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement, and +3 from leveling, that brings me to 30 Charisma. If I started with 15 Charisma then add another +1 level bonus into it.
That's That gives me a base saving throw DC of 26 on my upper level spells (only 3 points less than a wizard of equal emphasis) and a minimum of 13 SLAs per day. 15 with master summoner. Good times.
the only thing keeping the summoner from being a full caster is the amount of spell slots. i guess 3+cha mod extra summons per day compensates for that.
at 17th level with a 22 Cha and a feat
the summoner, is casting summon monster IX 16 times a day. a master summoner could do this `8 times a day with the same Cha.
Not sure which feat you're talking about but my summoners tend to have at least a 30 Charisma by 17th level. They're spellcasters so I'm grabbing Craft Wondrous Item (+6 Charisma at 18,000 gp creation cost), grabbing my +5 inherent modifiers via planar binding or simulacrum (costs 12,500 gp in material costs). If I began with a 16 Charisma, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement, and +3 from leveling, that brings me to 30 Charisma. If I started with 15 Charisma then add another +1 level bonus into it.
That's That gives me a base saving throw DC of 26 on my upper level spells (only 3 points less than a wizard of equal emphasis) and a minimum of 13 SLAs per day. 15 with master summoner. Good times.
i was being modest. a lot of groups don't use chain Eefreeti binding like that.
but with a 30 charisma and the extra summons feat (summoner feat that gives you 2 extra uses of your summon monster SLA per day)
you can have
at 17th level
15 uses of summon monster IX just from the spell like ability and the extra summons feat, and 8 6th level spells you could use for summon monster IX or any 9th level summoner spell
23 uses, 25 if master summoner.
i did my math wrong. sorry.
In all fairness I think it only adds +1/day to your SLA and has a level limit on how frequently you can take it (still a potent feat though).
In all fairness I think it only adds +1/day to your SLA and has a level limit on how frequently you can take it (still a potent feat though).
All the "Extra X" feats were in increments of 2 or 6. but Extra Summons and Extra channel could only be taken once. Extra Evolution is the only notable exception i know of.
though 15 uses of your SLA
and 8 6th level slots that can be blown on 9th level spells, including summon monster 9, was where i was getting the 23 uses from
master summoner gets 2 more uses of the SLA and can really break action economy.
Oh, well on the PRD Extra Summons only adds +1/day, but can be taken up to 5 times (extra summons). Which isn't really bad since honestly +1 to your highest level uber spell per day is not a terrible use for a feat when the spell is so versatile and a single casting can last you an entire encounter, and you could easily burn every other feat you have on it without running low on feats for other purposes.
Oh, well on the PRD Extra Summons only adds +1/day, but can be taken up to 5 times (extra summons). Which isn't really bad since honestly +1 to your highest level uber spell per day is not a terrible use for a feat when the spell is so versatile and a single casting can last you an entire encounter, and you could easily burn every other feat you have on it without running low on feats for other purposes.
so for 5 feats and 30 cha
a master summoner could have 20 uses of their SLA and 8 9th level spells. all of which they could dedicate to summon monster IX.
i thought it was just a 2 extra use feat that could only be taken once.
Nah, it's much more. I'd have considered maxing this even in 3.x where you got 1 feat every 3 levels. In Pathfinder where you get a feat every odd level I'd consider it even more strongly and would almost certainly take it at least once. Summoners don't really need a lot of feats. The ones I've put together I normally dump the usual things like Augment Summoning, Crafting, and some Improved Initiative (maybe a save booster or Toughness). Plenty of room left around for more summoning.
Hahahaha
You guys are funny. I wouldn't rate a master summoner over a core pathfinder druid or cleric or wizard, and you guys are saying he is equal to the CoDzilla of 3.5.
Bwuhahahaha!
The only way a summoner could come even close is by abusing planar binding, but by that logic a Fighter can abuse scrolls and UMD to be a full caster because any GM that lets you bind infinite demons is probably handing out infinite wealth.
Hahahaha
You guys are funny. I wouldn't rate a master summoner over a core pathfinder druid or cleric or wizard, and you guys are saying he is equal to the CoDzilla of 3.5.
Bwuhahahaha!
The only way a summoner could come even close is by abusing planar binding, but by that logic a Fighter can abuse scrolls and UMD to be a full caster because any GM that lets you bind infinite demons is probably handing out infinite wealth.
binding is a class feature the summoner is actually capable of. and you don't need infinite demons, just the right outsider for the job. changing as needed.
the fighter doesn't get "infinite wealth" as a class feature. and the fighter still requires the following to use those scrolls
- a caster to scribe them
- enough wealth to afford them
- a high enough UMD
- a significant Int/Trait/Feat investment to use them, plus a positive Cha or some kind of competence item to mitigate the penalty.
- a gimping of their combat ability they are allegedly famous for
- a reliance on scrolls to overcome their newfound weaknesses, which is just as unhealthy as a potion addiction or excessive dependency on a specific ally to provide your tricks. whether PC or NPC.
- who the hell is going to waste many months scribing scrolls so the fighter can think he is a caster?
- at least the summoner abusing planar binding has a means to threaten the outsiders he milks boons from and can use "your life" or "your freedom" as reliable bargains.
Hahahaha
You guys are funny. I wouldn't rate a master summoner over a core pathfinder druid or cleric or wizard, and you guys are saying he is equal to the CoDzilla of 3.5.
Bwuhahahaha!
The only way a summoner could come even close is by abusing planar binding, but by that logic a Fighter can abuse scrolls and UMD to be a full caster because any GM that lets you bind infinite demons is probably handing out infinite wealth.
Equal to the 3.5 CoDzilla? Hm, there's a lot of 3.5 CoDzilla. There's core CoDzilla (which was still CoDzilla) and then there was splat CoDzilla (Godzilla after a binge drinking on nuclear power plants).
Also, I can't make the GM give me infinite wealth with a successful opposed Charisma check. I can make an outsider my b**** with a successful Charisma check and my class features.
But you can't make a GM ignore all planes abuse and not have a few high level demons, devils, or angels ruin your day because you keep binding all of their minions.
Drachasor I agree but MrSin and others have implied it not being so.
You haven't looked at the summoner very well have you?
- First off, almost all the summoner's spells are good ones and almost all of them are higher level spells squeezed into a lower level slot.
- Second, his 6th level spell slot cap is an advantage when it's filled with 8th and 9th level spells, because it means scrolls are cheaper, and it's easier to load up on bonus spells (it takes a 28 Charisma to get +1 9th level spell, but a 22 to get +1 6th, and a 30 nets him +2 to +3 spells per level). He gets better returns on Rings of Wizardry as well (it's really nice to get tons of 5th and 6th level spellcasting for the cost of a 4th level Ring of Wizardry), and gets paid huge when it comes to metamagic rods (he never needs to use a greater rod on any of his spells and can get a ton of amazing spell effects with lesser rods).
- Third, he has less spell slots but more meaningful spells. He does have only 5 + bonus spells per spell level per day (so by 20th level somewhere around 7-8/day each). That's plenty, because then he also has some 3 + Charisma (or 5 + Charisma) uberspells that are equivalent to the highest level spell being cast at his given level, and the spell he casts is one that can replicate tons of other spells and has a huge variety of uses.
- Fourth, aving throw DCs are at most 3 points lower than a wizard of equal level assuming all things equal (that is if he's using a 9th level spell in a 6th level slot). Of course, saving throw DCs aren't a measure of CoDzilla either, and honestly I'd take a -1 hit to most spells and up to a -3 hit on my highest DCs for everything they get.
- Fifth, what spell list are you talking about? Summoners are loaded with offensive spells. I'm not sure if you noticed but they get SUMMON MONSTER and GATE as spell-like abilities. Oh, and spells like summon swarm, the pit trap spells, spike growth, wall of fire, etc, etc, etc. Perhaps you mean they don't get direct blasting spells like fireball (except that they do because many of their summons have spells like scorching ray, lightning bolt, telekinesis, holy smite/unholy blight, etc).
Sigh. We really aren't going to agree. Obviously I struck a nerve though with all the little jabs your making. But just for fun let me take a look at your arguement.
First - Yeah. No one is disagreeing. They have a good spell list. Its still not a full caster.
Second - Your bonus spells dont make up for the lack of spell slots. The only advantage is Item creation. He has them in lower spell levels but he gets those spell levels at around the same time as a full caster would. How is that an advantage. He gets them the same time as a full caster. Has less spell slots then a full caster. And the DC's are lower. How is that an advantage. Lets take a look at one of your examples. Charm Monster. The Summoner gets access to it the same time as a Wizard true (7th level). But the summoner has to share all those great 3rd and 4th level spells with the same Spell level. Wizard has just as many 4th level spell slots as the summoner has 3rd. He can cast Charm Monster just as much. And he still has all those 3rd level spell slots. O and a +1 on the DC of that Charm Monster to boot.
Third - Let me repeat an earlier point you seem to have ignored. They only get a grand total of 5+CHA spell bonus in 6th level spells. Lets assume you had a CHA of 36. Thats 7 spells. A Wizard with a 36 Int OR a cleric with a 36 WIS has the same 7 6th level spells and an Additional 21 spell slots between 7, 8, and 9th level spells. A druid with a 36 Wis has 6 6th level spells and 18 additional spell slots between 7,8,and 9. They also have +3 more points to their Spell DC's.
Forth - Its still a hit. Lower DC's matter when you start talking about all the great CC they get.
Fifth - Sorry. By offensive I mean blasty spells. And you KEEP mentioning Gate. YOu cannot rely on GATE. It cost 10,000 Gold to call creatures in on top of the bargin price. Its just a spell for when the crap really hits the fan. Or for the end of the campaign.
*ahem* Yeah, they do. There are few spells that are as reality warping as planar binding and simulacrum. And you say they have delayed access which is debatable. They actually have EARLY access for quite a few of their spells Most of their spells the DCs don't matter much on, nor are DCs integral to being CoDzilla (or even influencing since most CoDzilla builts revolved around buffing the crap out of yourself). And they get the craziest of spells (and even get the no-save-just-suck Maze spell).
Sure they do get a few spells a level early. But they miss out on most of the best buff spells... I dont see how you argue CODzilla buffs himself and then wades into battle when the Summoner doesn't get most if any of the better combat buffs. Haste and Enlarge person is about it. Divine Power, Animal Growth, ect. And Maze is one of the few Save-or-Suck spells in the game with no save. The rest do. Not that the summoner cares cause he doesn't get most of them.
Showing you clearly haven't studied the summoner at all. What makes this rebuttal hilarious is that the summoner DOES have 4th level spells at 7th level. Look at their list!Black Tentacles (4th), Charm Monster (4th), Dimension Door (4th), Dimensional Anchor (4th), Mass Enlarge Person (4th), Fire Shield (4th), Greater Invisibility (4th), Locate Creature (4th), Minor Creation (4th), Mass Reduce Person (4th), Stoneskin (4th), Summon Monster IV (4th), Wall of Fire (4th), Wall of Ice (4th); with a smattering of great 3rd level spells on the list too.
This junk is hilarious. Oh, at at that same level, the summoner is probably casting some 7 or so 4th level spells on crack per day in addition to these other spells. :P
Wow. Way to take one line and turn it around. I have already argued why early spell access doesn't make up for the lack of spell slots, DC's, ect. Great you can cast Black Tentacles the same time a Wizard can. He has the same number of spell slots he could use to cast it. He has a highter DC. And he isn't using up his 3rd level spells like you are. I dont know how else I can explain my point. He has a great list. But he isn't a full caster. Magus, Paladin, Bard, and Ranger all get early spell access. There is a reason. They get their spell levels at later levels and have fewer slots to use. It doesn't make them full casters.
And as an side note. I love the Summoner class. I have studied it extensivly. Its a great class. A solid Tier 2 class with tons of utility and flavor. I have played them in games. I have GM'd against them. I know the spell list. Its good. Its not earth shattering. The number of spell slots really hold it back. I suppose if you throw one combat a day it could mask the weakness. Otherwise it becomes apparent... quickly.
Pause right here. I want everyone to read this back to themselves. "Which has nothing to do with being CoDzilla. It adds power AND utility. Why was CoDzilla CoDzilla? Oh, that's right. Because they were powerful and had an answer for pretty much everything. Here we have an example of why there is disagreement. You seem to believe in some sort of unseen fairy tale CoDzilla without understanding why CoDzilla was what it was. CoDzilla existed in core 3.5 and it grew fatter with each splat book (and thus maintained an edge against all the other fattening classes as well, keeping the status quo right where it was before, only with more inflation).
Ignoring the condescending tone. I am 100 percent correct. The fact you try to point it out like I sliped up shows me why we disagree. Even by the definition you posted. CoDzilla is able to deal melee damage and take punishment to a degree that greatly surpasses regular fighter or barbarian-types and still has advantages like full casting. Utility and Power have nothing to do with it. CODzilla minmized the impact of melee while being able to still be a full caster. Thats it. Somehow you think power has something to do with it. They where powerful true but there where more powerful combos out there. Half your arguement has been about all his powerful abilities, but you never (at least imo)tie it back to why that qualifies him as a CODzilla.
I like your Summonzilla. Make your on definition if you like. He does alot of the same things the Old CODzilla could. But not near the game breaking degree that the old 3.5 CODzilla did. And yes. I think you have to be a full caster to qualify... at least you did with the 3.5 CODzilla. I have a CODzilla build from 3.5. I called it the Lich King build (World of Warcraft reference). It was even on Briliant Gamologist section for a bit.HERE IT IS.
Basically he got...
-16 BAB and 9th lvl Divine spellcasting.
-12 + Cha x 4 Rebuke attempts without a single Nightstick
-Regeration 1... which turns all damage other than fire or acid into subdual damage... exept you are immune to subdual damage. So you are immune to HP damage other than acid or fire.
-2x your Cha bonus to saves
-Counterspell any spell as an immediate action once per round
-Immunity to all HP damage other than acid/fire, DR 2/ Bludgeoning,
Immune to Crit/Sa, Immune to Poison, Sleep effects, Paralysis, disease, death effects, fatigue, exhaustion, ability damage, ability drain, energy drain, and death from massive damage.
-Full cleric casting, any cleric spell you want to persist on yourself.
-Also you rebuke as a 18th lvl cleric
-Mettle and a Ring of Evasion allows you to never take any secondary affect from a spell you save against.
He also had an update I cant find... with a 40HD Zombie Dragon as a pet and a Legacy weapon. HE was a perfect example of CODzilla. He could do anything and everything.