Goblin Squad Member
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I Love Sadurian's jail time concept (and love his robust defences and rebuttles slightly more! Well done!)
I like it too, from an ingame point of view.
seen from that perspectiv jailtime for a crime a character commited is a sound concept, no objection.But my problem, which i haven`t made clear, obviously, is that imprisonment is more thatn that.
It is also a punishment of the player.
If you lock someone out of the game, and maybe even take away his ability to train skills on top of that,
which again make ingame sense as a characterpunishment;
then you punish a paying player because his character did something ingame that is explicitly wanted.
and, i`m sorry, maybe i`ve overread something, but i haven`t seen any argument to explain how that is ok.
all the arguments i`ve seen so far are ingame justifications why a criminal act should have noticeable consequenses.
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Goblin Squad Member
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From reading the posts here I have to say I like some of the ideas and discussions going on. I am glad to see people really working to hash this out as it will be a very important and vital part of the game. Now for my additions.
I like the idea of "NPC kid pickpockets." It will help the world feel more real and dangerous and make NPC's be noticed instead of just background art. Maybe not at EE, but at launch it would be nice to see this.
Banishment I feel SHOULD be a MUST option for settlements to use. I wouldn't say it needs to be restricted or set to some "level" of crime only, but at the discretion of the settlement. The reason for this is because this is a sandbox and that means lots of freedoms to the players. If a PRS (Player Run Settlement) decides to be severe in their punishments and banish people left and right for random stuff, then so be it. If another PRS wants to save it for only the most heinous crimes, they can. Either way, I think this would be viable and worse than death because you lose access to training, buy/sell at their markets, and any property or "perks" that you have from living there. Like a crafter used to getting a big bonus from using their smithy, if you get banished, you don't have the boost any more.
Concerning imprisonment, I am against hour(s) long sentences, but I think a few mins, maybe a cap at 15 or 30 tops, would be reasonable and could make things interesting. Only thing though would be a system is needed where instead of killing a target, you subdue and take to jail. I can see this getting all kinds of complex and some interesting stuff coming from it. (Anyone say "Jail Break??") After you, you guys imprison Bludd for something he "may or may not" have committed, you bet your bottom that I will come, assassinate the guard and free him before his 15 to life are up. LOL.
Anyway, I think, if implemented properly, imprisonment could work. Even adding some sort of pause to exp gain, or maybe gain at 1/2 rate while behind bars could work. That would really make "running for your life" an attractive option. Not sure if it will or should be in for EE, but I would love to see a system in for launch. Side note: BH could use a subdual mechanic and bring the target back for imprisonment, if that is put into the contract. "Alive not dead" type of thing. I really like this idea. (and remember, I will be a criminal of the worst kind.)
Lastly, concerning the profit of doing crime, most of this is answered when you do the crime. You are robbing the guy, profit is the stuff gained. I fulfill a contract to kill someone, I get paid, and maybe loot from their body depending on the situation. So on and so on. I don't see a real need for additional or different "profit motives" than what is provided by the crime. Maybe if someone comes up with something, but so far, I can't think of anything and I haven't seen one posted here that I like more than just the crime itself.
Continue the discussion, great job guys. I hope GW has their eyes on this one too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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remember that as a criminal, yes you (we) are "providing a service and adding meaning to PVP and the game" but there still needs to be punishment. If death, as it currently is expected, is the ONLY punishment for crime, than this game will dissolve into a big how many people can I kill before I die, like a deathmatch FPS. I want there to be meaning and purpose to crime and fighting it. I want there to be danger and threat and a reason to care if you get caught or not. This will lead to better planned crimes and actions taken by both sides. Just like an assassination requires timing and a plan to get out alive, so too does a highway robbery, and the ransacking of the local tavern. Planning like a bank robbery, like a home invasion, like a shooting spree. To be effective and efficient, you must have a plan. Especially if you intend to get out alive.
I understand the discussion comparing a criminal to a fighter who dies a lot in "his line of work" but you have to remember that you kinda comparing apples and oranges. A criminal plans and does everything he can to NOT get caught, just like a fighter beefs up defences and attack/damage so he wins the fight. Difference is that fighter goes into a fight knowing he might die, a good criminal (good because they tend to be more successful and not good as in alignment) has a plan A and plan B and maybe even a plan C if things get really hairy. Fighting runs the risk of dying because your trading blows. Most crime is committed with the intent of "get in, get out" and no fighting involved. There is less chance for getting caught and facing whatever punishment there is.
End of the day, I, as a criminal, full expect and desire a robust and punishing system in place for the crimes I commit. After all, if the risk is worse than death (like loss of exp gain while sitting in jail for 1/2 hour) than I have to be more careful and the "cost" of crime to our employers goes up. making it more lucrative to us criminals. Risk vs reward.
One last thing before I forget (again). What about, along with the prison system, like in Elder Scroll games, there is a CHANCE based on skill of both criminal and guards, to sneak in a lock pick or something and try to get out, ending the imprisonment, but at the risk of getting caught and facing greater time inside, or worse... Just food for thought.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...imprisonment could work. Even adding some sort of pause to exp gain, or maybe gain at 1/2 rate while behind bars...
Won't reducing XP gain bother only the min-maxers? Folks truly playing their characters will be trying to leg it not out of concern for their XP, but their internal character story; others will go full meta-game, willing to surrender and give up the XP in exchange for the accomplishment of doing whatever-it-was that got them imprisoned...and they'll return and meta-game as often as they want to.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If death, as it currently is expected, is the ONLY punishment for crime, than this game will dissolve into a big how many people can I kill before I die, like a deathmatch FPS.
I agree with you, and I'm terrified of finding PFO working like that; that's what a good part of my experience with EVE felt like. I'd like a future blog to address, further to what we've already heard, what'll keep the game from devolving into EVE-like anarchy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree that the min-maxers will complain and not desire the exp loss, and it might not actually make it into the game. I was mearly stating that I, a criminal by trade, would love to have more severe punishments as it adds, IMHO, to the risk and thrill of trying to get away with it. Bludd and I have already had a few discussions on the topic of not running around with any gear we wouldn't mind losing, if any unthreaded gear at all, as to ensure should we die, we give nothing to the victors. That is all good and all, but where is the challenge and threat if we A) don't lose anything and B) don't give anything to those who best us. Granted losing exp by sitting in prison doesn't GIVE anyone anything, but it raises the threat and punishment of getting caught, making the crime that much more dangerous. That is what I seek.
I strongly feel the meta-game will happen regardless of in game effects. People will do it because they want to. I have no issue with that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It just struck me... Criminal and Enforcer Accolades! This could be the answer to the profit motive.
Players will do quite a bit for a freak'n title, we all know that from other MMOs.
Achieving these accolades could then unlock certain titles, feats, traits, or use for certain crafted items (item or tier of item).
Want to be able to use a set of QL 250 Thieves' Tools, well you have to have achieved a certain level of the Burglary Accolade to do so.
Want to be able to wear a certain insignia that represents Law Enforcement, and that magically increases your Perception rolls, have a high Apprehend Accolade, to unlock its use.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the idea of "NPC kid pickpockets." It will help the world feel more real and dangerous and make NPC's be noticed instead of just
i faintly remember something from my AD&D-times. Wasn`t there a thiefkit or something for Halflings that alowed them to disguise as a human child? could something like that be implemented?
Concerning imprisonment, I am against hour(s) long sentences, but I think a few mins, maybe a cap at 15 or 30 tops, would be reasonable and could make things interesting.
This i could get behind.
;) and if we use it this way, how about counting the time criminals spend in jail as Penal labour, towards building projects running in that community for examle?
I, a criminal by trade, would love to have more severe punishments as it adds, IMHO, to the risk and thrill
:) as you and Sadurian will both be people concerned, maybe i should rest my case:p
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Goblin Squad Member
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@bludd, being a "self-proclaimed achievement whore" I would definitely be on board with this idea. I love titles and achievements. It represents hard work and accomplishment. (At least to me it does.) Let people know what you have done and achieved.
@Gedichtewicht, I hope that you understand that, and I only speak for myself but I am sure others agree, I am not striking down your idea or ganging up against you or anything like that. People have opposing beliefs and there isn't anything wrong with that. That is how compromises are born and agreements reached. The gamer in me agrees with you and doesn't want, for any reason, to "lose control" of my character for any reason, especially for "doing my role." however, the RPer in my loves the idea for reasons I have stated above. It boils down to, in my case, the RP wins out. It would make sense that imprisonment be a viable and terrifying punishment. Not in RL, people don't wanna die as there is no respawn, making death normally a less desired outcome, but in a game where death is temporary, loss of time through imprisonment is worse.
Also, a big thing people MIGHT be forgetting concerning this imprisonment system. YOU MUST CATCH ME FIRST!!!!!!!!! Someone gave the idea that, like during war, you turn on a law and once broken, you "teleport" to jail. No No No. You commit the crime, then you get CAUGHT using some sort of apprehend mechanic, THEN you go to jail and don't collect 200 gp. That is the "getting away with the crime" part from bludd's OP. If I rob you, and run and get away, then I got away with it. If I rob you and while running, get catch and subdued, then I go to jail.
Side note, I like the "forced work while in jail" idea. Would help "for free" for settlements to build/upgrade stuff. Maybe half or something the prisoner's related skill is added to the settlement's pool like if they had volunteered. I say half as most inmates half-ass their work cause they don't wanna do it. Just saying, I know I would :-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Gedichtewicht, I hope that you understand that, and I only speak for myself but I am sure others agree, I am not striking down your idea or ganging up against you or anything like that.
:D thanks for your concern sir, i appreciate that.
but with my last comment, i was just kidding, hence the ":p"@Sadurian : i hope you feel the same, i`m just oposing your idea because i feel as originally proposted it is too severe.
People have opposing beliefs and there isn't anything wrong with that. That is how compromises are born and agreements reached.
second that, i`m actually a bit surprised about the way discussions run here, although i`ve lurked for quite some time. so cudos to all involved.
The gamer in me agrees with you and doesn't want, for any reason, to "lose control" of my character for any reason, especially for "doing my role." however, the RPer in my loves the idea for reasons I have stated above. It boils down to, in my case, the RP wins out.
That`s a good thing in my book too, and as i said before, i`m against the idea as such, but the severity of an hourlog imprisonment, i felt was just overkill. especially if you consider that after EE not everyone will even have an alt to play.
a lot of my concerns/objections but be void be reducing the actualtime.
Up to 15min`s im perfectly fine, 30mins for repeated/really severe crimes - i`d be ok with that.
Also, a big thing people MIGHT be forgetting concerning this imprisonment system. YOU MUST CATCH ME FIRST!!!!!!!!!
True, and maybe i`m thinking ahead to much, but if i put myself into the shoes of a newbie player aafter oe, who`d like to play a criminal, but constandly gets caught, i think that wouldn`t be an incentive to continue playing. Again, from an RP-pof that might be different, and we don`t know enough about the skillsystem, but the thought is still there...
Someone gave the idea that, like during war, you turn on a law and once broken, you "teleport" to jail.
do "my" laws even apply to an enemy warparty in actual war?
Side note, I like the "forced work while in jail" idea. Would help "for free" for settlements to build/upgrade stuff. Maybe half or something the prisoner's related skill is added to the settlement's pool like if they had volunteered. I say half as most inmates half-ass their work cause they don't wanna do it. Just saying, I know I would :-)
Thanks. And you`d be chained and under consent survaillance of course... by npc guards... oh my
In addition i was more thinking about breaking stones and such as actually going to the buildingside.
;)that would leave the prisonbreak idea intact.
How would you break bludd out of prison if he is somewhere in town building the new guardtower?
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Goblin Squad Member
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do "my" laws even apply to an enemy warparty in actual war?
Someone gave the idea that, like during war, you turn on a law and once broken, you "teleport" to jail.
The 'turning on a law during war' was my suggestion. It was actually to highlight that players will enact stupid laws to try and hamper their enemies (as opposed to citizens) more than anything else. I didn't imply that there was any teleporting involved and had assumed the offending character would need to be killed or captured first.
I'm not sure if this will work during a war dec, but it does pose an interesting situation. If subdual and subsequent capture works on damage to a character, then instead of that character being moved back to their spawn point and regrouping for a further zerg against the targetted settlement, they get removed from the game for a certain amount of time instead. This is not a bad think in my opinion as it potentially stops zerging, but it is something all settlements would need to do, otherwise it offers a huge advantage to the settlement with the stupid law.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I see Gedichtewicht's point that we shouldn't punish a player for deeds the game allowed his character to do in PFO. But ideas like prison breaks and forced labor might just be too fun not to include! So what if Prison Time were a Mini-game inside the game. Kinda like a repeatable dungeon where you could level unique skills that had limited carry-over to the outside game world:
There could be Hooch-makers that teach brewing skills.
There could be tatooists with exclusive prison tats.
Shiv-Making 101 could train you in metalworking and weapon-smithing.
Low Reputation could translate to automatic popularity.
The guards could provide random beatings to add to the suspense.
We can't make it TOO fun, or people will WANT to go to jail. But it would give players things to do during their incarceration that would allow them to still play their characters.
I might also support Gnome and Halfling Thieves to Pickpocket. You can't deny, their races are right for the role.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There was a jail in one of the early games, I think it may have been Dragonrealms, for malefactors. It wasn't effective.
It is not a matter of it being effective for purposes of discouraging crime. The purpose is for the punishment to match the crime and or to make it a bit more interesting.
If the punishment for a crime was severe enough that is discourages crime, then it would have gone too far.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Blah. I still don't find it necessary and I am one that is most likely to be a victim. It is interesting that many avowed "criminals" are in support.
Because it won't really affect me and some would find it fun, I suppose that I am not opposed.
If there are enough that would not engage in criminal activity because of it, but otherwise would, I am opposed.
Edit: If "weird laws" in a strange settlement could get me thrown in jail, than I am MEGA OPPOSSED.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Blah. I still don't find it necessary and I am one that is most likely to be a victim. It is interesting that many avowed "criminals" are in support.
Because it won't really affect me and some would find it fun, I suppose that I am not opposed.
If there are enough that would not engage in criminal activity because of it, but otherwise would, I am opposed.
Edit: If "weird laws" in a strange settlement could get me thrown in jail, than I am MEGA OPPOSSED.
Well, I can't speak for all criminals, but I support perhaps stronger penalties and a variety of penalties because I don't want a criminal's profession to be an easy one. I also want greater rewards for living that life as well.
As for settlements having "weird laws" that may surprise you and make you a criminal, all I can say is, ignorance of the law does not make you free from it. If you are aware of the law, no matter how weird you think it is, then you either follow it or you break it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't suppose that there will be enough options to make the "carrying a pig in town" type laws. I also suppose that you will get some kind of warning that you are in violation, and how, as you try to enter a settlement.
The only laws that will likely be "weird" will be player laws created outside the system. The jail idea probably would not be able to cover such things unless it was 100% in player control. In that case it would be abused.,..
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Goblin Squad Member
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So what if Prison Time were a Mini-game inside the game. Kinda like a repeatable dungeon where you could level unique skills that had limited carry-over to the outside game world:
There could be Hooch-makers that teach brewing skills.
There could be tatooists with exclusive prison tats.
Shiv-Making 101 could train you in metalworking and weapon-smithing.
Low Reputation could translate to automatic popularity.
The guards could provide random beatings to add to the suspense.
I like that.
and the goal of the minigame what be to follow x instructions to get released early for good behaviour.I`m even less opposed to the whole prison idea if there is something to do while in prison, but there still should be a cap to the time to serve.
back to banishments: i imagine that if you get banished and return to the settlment teritory you could get the heinous flag for that. You might get around that if you are good at disguising, but if your disguise files in the middle of town...
just an idea
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here's a wild thought.
Is there any possibility of slapping something like a 'Negative Level' on someone who has returned to the place from where they are banished? Something frustrating and something the player wants to remove, but not enough to significantly affect gameplay. It would only affect the character within the bounds they were banished from.
Pro: It is a definite deterrent that still allows the banished character to return, but under a restriction. It could be 'bought off' by paying a fine. It wouldn't need to have a flag if you were disguised, being a punishment in itself. It affects the character rather than the player.
Con: It would be hindrance to PvP assaults on areas from where a significant number of your forces have already been banished. It would, like all punishments, need careful handling by the player community to avoid being abused.
If it works, it could be used as a punishment in itself, having a Negative Level applied for X number of minutes/hours.
I feel that the only people that can be affected by crime are non-flagged players all other players have accepted the risk. If you can post a bounty on a player its a good chance that they have commented a crime i can't think of any crimes that can happen to an non-flagged player that wont result in death. Any legit crimes that criminals commit the punishment is death,loss of goods and respawn.
I don't feel that a bounty is that much of a punishment. But if we change bounty for warrant. Players with the right flag can now hunt down and bring said criminal to justice. The victim gets compensation from the settlement,bounty hunter/marshell gets paid by the settlement and the settlement gets compensation in the form of indentured servitude to the value of ???. GW has set out what crimes are ok, if criminals want to work outside the system that that's ok too, They just have to pay the price if/when they are brought to justice.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Make jail merely a place where bandits can train up their skills in a lawful town. Clerics go to the temple, bandits go to jail... it all starts to make a weird kind of sense...
<Back at the hideout> "Hey guys, my skills are getting out of date and I finally have the exp needed to train up. I am going to hit up the local jail and spend all this exp. If you wouldn't mind giving me about 15 mins, i'd appreciate a "early release". Thanx guys, your the best.....<leaves to go to nearest LG settlement>
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Goblin Squad Member
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although...
There's a certain poetic beauty - with traces of profound sadness - to that idea.
this, is very true, and nicely put too...
Make jail merely a place where bandits can train up their skills in a lawful town.
...i`m still chuckling, great thought, i came as far as thinking; criminals in jail should be allowed to create new contacts amongst themselves/teach each other new skill, but this didn`t occur to me. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The difference being that the fighter will be killed and be able continue to play the game in under a minute. You're advocating a criminal should be killed and then punished further by being locked out of their character.The point is that the fighter gets killed because he has chosen to play a role. The player knows that the role is dangerous and is likely to get the fighter killed a lot. Instead of whining that the game is unfair because the fighter role gets killed, the player accepts the consequences of playing that role.
If you choose to define your character as a criminal, you should accept that there will be consequences.
You have a very valid point. My issue is that the criminal will suffer the exact same fate as the fighter AND then be imprisoned. Perhaps if it was made that if a criminal was killed, then their punishment was served fully?
I used this example, as you seem to want to inflict multiple punishments onto a criminal, one of which stops them enjoying and playing a game they have paid for for a certain amount of time, yet the front line fighter who kills and destroys all before his mighty blade, just gets a single fate. Not all players will have alts, and if they do, is it even fair they are forced to play that alt for a period...
A better example is if the front line fighter was killed by an assassin and was locked out of their character for several hoursWhy is that a better example? The fighter hasn't sought out the assassin knowing he might be killed by him. If the fighter looks at an assassin stronghold and chooses to go in to try to kill the assassin, but then gets assassinated, then it would be a slightly better example.
However. This assumes that the fighter has chosen to be an assassin hunter. It also assumes that the assassin is otherwise innocent and has done nothing to cause the fighter to hunt him. In other words, it isn't actually a good example at all.
not really, this is just you being a smarmy pita. you don't like the idea, fine. guess what? you being a jackass isn't helping your case any. unfortunately, your only stance is it is a bad idea cause it will suck to be punished. well, guess what? IT'S SUPPOSED TO. you want to be a parasite, feeding off of other player's hard work and screw up their game experience by being a bandit, or murderer, or thief? fine, go for it. but when you're caught, why shouldn't you receive the same, eh?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Disclaimer - I really don't have a lot at stake here because I am not planning to play PFO any time soon.
Having said that I was one of the people in earlier discussions vehemently opposed to any sort of imprisonment BUT looking back I have a different view on this.
In essence when you commit a crime like theft or assassination against another player you are actually stealing there TIME as nothing in the game world matters in the real world EXCEPT time.
The time you took to make an item, make the money to buy an item, farm resources, etc.
The time you lose traveling back to where you were, restock your gear, rejoin your group, etc.
It seems fitting now that if caught the punishment should be loss of the criminals time, via imprisonment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems fitting now that if caught the punishment should be loss of the criminals time, via imprisonment.
Imprisonment is pretty boring, but this is exactly why I suggested that anyone with the attacker flag who dies have a small but real chance of facing an extra gear penalty, by having a normally threaded item remain with their corpse. See: Husk Gushers for flagged (attacker) deaths. It's not proving very popular with the would-be bandits.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'll be honest, one of my biggest issues with a game like this and why I sometimes refer to the as "by griefers, for griefers" is that they constantly claim to be based on risk vs. rewards but in the end they shift ALL of the risk to gathers, explorers, etc. and ALL of the reward to people who's playstyles are designed to cause grief to other players.
So if those players in turn have to face some grief in form of sitting in front of a monitor staring at the inside of a boring jail cell with fat eddy and smelly jake for a few hours live playtime I don't have a problem with that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'll be honest, one of my biggest issues with a game like this and why I sometimes refer to the as "by griefers, for griefers" is that they constantly claim to be based on risk vs. rewards but in the end they shift ALL of the risk to gathers, explorers, etc. and ALL of the reward to people who's playstyles are designed to cause grief to other players.
So if those players in turn have to face some grief in form of sitting in front of a monitor staring at the inside of a boring jail cell with fat eddy and smelly jake for a few hours live playtime I don't have a problem with that.
I guess you are a victim of griefing or something similar, and thus can be somewhat excused. But I thought this thread was about how to include "constructive" crime and punishment.
Anyway, as I suggested in another thread and further fertilised by other ideas I think the penalty part could be parameterised with several different methods.
The Reputation
This system is in existence, but I belive it could be tweaked and expanded a bit.
1) The Recovery rate Should IMO be dependent on current reputation with a nonlinear making the recovery faster if at the extremes (ie high and low Reputaion) and slowing down around zero. This would mean that a Nobel Paladin could attack (now and then) a character he know is an offender (or belive at least, you know how Paladins are) without suffering to much, but if he go on a killing spree and wipe out a chaos aligned village of crafters and get Reputation below zero it would take forever (in a gaming sense at least) to recover.
(I suggest a function along
Rrate=1+a*SQRT(abs(Reputation(t)))
with a being a suitable constant and t being the time at each tick.
2) There should perhaps be a bit more graduated effect of reputation with things like attacking Thornguard, no training, no crafting, access to AH etc set by The Settlement leader (either free or by choosing a Template).
By doing that some criminals coulde decide which privilegies they can live without and at what level the must behave for a while and stay low until the heat goes away.
At very low levels there should actually be problems for a criminal to even enter a Thorn guarded hex without sneaking.
Alignment
Yes Im a strong proponent for the use of Alignments, not only because they are D&Dish, but also because they are a very goid way of catagorise people and phenomena in a way that is understandable (in some sense).
1) Alignment should be affected by behaviour, and there are any lists of suggestions on the net and in books with examples. In contrast to Reputation, Alignment should only change slowly and at repeated "offences".
2) Alignment should (IMO) have direct effect on how your toon look. Chaotics Evils could have miscoloured eys, a profound black shadow and/or their equipment in dark red, purple lined or swirly colours ... LG could have halos, equipment shiny and birds sining in the background (whatever).
3) Alignment just as Reputation should affect what activites you are "allowed to do in a Settlement, but in a bit less restricted way and with less ability to customise by the Settlement leader. I should also affect the "skin" of the settlement.
I have more thoughts on the matter, but now some household stuff beckons to be done!
Yet another post I will make about necessary involvement of either game systems or GM-types.
The issue in every game where they believe that it will work itself out, that the players must police it, etc. The issue becomes that it's just not worth it. It's not like real life. Until there is a hardcore system that can handle crime and maybe, in the some cases, bring the matter before a jury/arbiter then it will always devolve to 'the wild west.'
The idea that the arc of a game would mirror humanity, that it would start out that way and then create structure... is not true. Well, it is partially true if you think of the corruption behind our current world-structure.
I don't think anyone should be banned from the game. I don't understand why imprisonment or the like is so off-putting to people. It makes a lot more sense than getting PK'd. KILL HIM. Just have a big conveyor belt with a guillotine at the end of it.
If people are saying NO ANYTHING BUT IMPRISONMENT, IT'LL DRIVE PEOPLE FROM THE GAME, we have to look at it as an option because there are people saying NO ANYTHING BUT PKING...
Because time is more valuable than death, in a game, and death does not always equal such a huge loss of time (you could have spent time gathering more stuff, time that you would have spent anyway, and have much gear) I think the idea of imprisonment should be looked at. Even making people do community service to get out early. Put someone on escalation clean up for 3 days... etc.
We also want our criminals to have an anger that doesn't just stem from their personality. We want them to have a hatred of the game system and the people who will ultimately take them prisoner. It creates better villains.
Edit: But on that note, I see no reason why people can't train where they allow people to train, buy goods etc. People should have to be black-listed by settlement I think. It shouldn't be an auto target. So, yes, that means that a settlement can have people who go around and kill but are treated like citizens. That is no big deal, to me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One reason imprisonment is a bit ridiculous is that it means that quite a lot of people will just leave the game on for three days straight and play something else during that time...
The last thing PFO needs is to limit players from being able to play the game. The server population is in a death spiral.
As for an eventual Alignment System, again, why further segregate the already diminishing population?
Settlement Training limitations is not a good move in a low population environment.
Escalations will continue to be out of control, because the current population can not put a dent in their growth.
Crowdforging is a failure if Ryan isn't honest about the reality that the population is too low to support the system that are in place or in development.
The trajectory of PFO is bleak.
One reason imprisonment is a bit ridiculous is that it means that quite a lot of people will just leave the game on for three days straight and play something else during that time...
haha. Well I don't think anyone imagined they would be stuck at the computer, logged in, while watching propaganda in prison.
I don't even think it would be acct wide. It would be per character, and it would just be a time that you couldn't log into that character.
Nobody is limited from playing the game, assuming they don't become a murderer and get caught. People would get over it.
Then maybe they would be flagged as a once criminal and get harsher punishments from that point forward. Everyone is like NO DON'T MAKE CRIME HARDER...!
It makes a lot more sense than a half-baked rep system. If people leave the game because they got imprisoned then they are soft, period.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One reason imprisonment is a bit ridiculous is that it means that quite a lot of people will just leave the game on for three days straight and play something else during that time...The last thing PFO needs is to limit players from being able to play the game. The server population is in a death spiral.
That is partly due to the introduction of leveling caps at a point in time when the WoT was broken and many settlement leaders were either AWOL or had actually announced they may get around to playing in EE. Seems to me less than half a dozen settlements are actually functional.
The issue in Alpha is not any technical issue with the game it is a lack of players. People that think EE will magically change that are deluded, there will be a flurry of people that refused to get involved in alpha logging in and getting confused and spamming chat with complaints and questions, then it will fade away again. Hopefully longterm to eventually build back up.
ON TOPIC: I do however agree "punishments" that take you out of game completely are counterproductive, especially in a game where people pay to play by the day more or less. They basically equate to a temporary ban and bans are always controversial.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The people waiting for EE are definitely not limited to those who haven't tried the game during Alpha. Some of us Alpha testers feel like we've tried what we wanted to try in Alpha, and we're ready for the persistence of EE. The population increase at EE might not be magical, but I think it will be noticeable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Age of Wushu (Wulin in Europe) has imprisonment and you can actually visit the perpetrator in the jail. He can also try to arrange a breakout, with friends.
I was ganked at some point and soon after it was announced in chat that such and so was apprehended and got 2 hours jailtime or some (due to a rather interesting bounty system that I will not explain here).
I decided to visit the guy in jail, see what it was like to see him there and go "neener, neener" :) . When I got there he was jumping on his bed, up and down. I made a few laughing and point emotes but I do not think he even noticed me.
Needless to say the "neener, neener" act was not fulfilling at all, and I had not expected it to be. It was kinda cool to see at least the system in working, with action-consequence.
Not sure if the guy would jump on his bed for the whole two hours, log off or that he was arranging a breakout: I did not wait to find out.
All in all, I think it is very hard to make this sort of thing fun/unfun, unless you implement all sorts of additional systems like the breakout. And then you are actually rewarding the ganker with some extra gameplay. The prison sentence does nothing for the "victim" and most likely nothing for the criminal either, other then at some point deciding to not bother with the game anymore.
So I think I like the Reputationhit-->less access to Cities/trainer/utility better.