Seriously: Brass Knuckles and Monk unarmed damage

[Trung Bui]

So is the final word for brass knuckles is they DO NOT allow monks to use their unarmed strike damage?

[Kazumetsa Raijin]

Trung Bui wrote:

So is the final word for brass knuckles is they DO NOT allow monks to use their unarmed strike damage?

I've asked this a few times myself in the past couple months.

From the evidence given, opinions gathered, and facts told, Brass Knuckles in fact do NOT give us our unarmed strike damage.

It is truly sad. :T

[Trung Bui]

Yeah, that is pretty much a bummer. I wanted to create a melee Batman build (Arkham Style of combat) that was based around charging and it doesn't make much sense. That just sounds like a house ruling idea. Feels like Paizo sort of feels like they shot themselves in the foot by releasing the item and back pedaling because they found out "Uh oh, monks don't need the Amulet of Mighty Fists anymore!"

[Vamptastic]

That's a shame, I was excited about making a Temple of Greaser Monks.

[Mikaze]

The Bodywraps of Mighty Strikes are the closest to a non-AoMF replacement for the original interpretation of the brass knuckles(and more thematically friendly to boot), but I don't know if or when their unusual attack limit issue will change after the recent monk and AoMF fixes.

[Cheapy]

They do not let monks use their unarmed strike damage, because then it wouldn't be unarmed strike damage.

[Kazumetsa Raijin]

Vamptastic wrote:

That's a shame, I was excited about making a Temple of Greaser Monks.

hahaha. Brilliant! Saddening though :(

[blackbloodtroll]

Amulet of Mighty Fists got cheaper, and the enhancement bonuses now allow you to bypass DR if high enough.

So, Monks got a little better over time.

Just to reiterate, the only weapon that deal unarmed strike damage, is the unarmed strike.

[Sah]

Honestly, we never liked that change at the tables I have played at so we just let the monks use their unarmed damage with it. Also when you allow that you allow a simple way to enchant the monks unarmed strikes.

This is of course a house rule but hey we like it.

[JonGarrett]

It makes you wonder - what exactly are on a Monk's hands? Because when you add several pounds of metal it massive reduces there damage. Are monks traditionally lead coated?

[Eridan]

JonGarrett wrote:

It makes you wonder - what exactly are on a Monk's hands? Because when you add several pounds of metal it massive reduces there damage. Are monks traditionally lead coated?

The monk uses martial art techniques to increase his damage like hitting nerves, veins, arteries, sensitive body parts etc. It is not only "in your face, harder is better". Otherwise there would be no difference between an unarmed fighter and a monk.

[Are]

The sad thing about this is that 3.5 ruled the opposite way for gauntlets; in that system a monk could use +5 gauntlets and get his full unarmed strike damage on top of the +5 attack/damage.

[carn]

Eridan wrote:

JonGarrett wrote:

It makes you wonder - what exactly are on a Monk's hands? Because when you add several pounds of metal it massive reduces there damage. Are monks traditionally lead coated?

The monk uses martial art techniques to increase his damage like hitting nerves, veins, arteries, sensitive body parts etc. It is not only "in your face, harder is better". Otherwise there would be no difference between an unarmed fighter and a monk.

No, because the monks damage is also increased when hitting a solid, completely continous, flat and magically enhanced adamantine wall (which i hope is something for which any discussion about existance of weak spots can be avoided).

[TGMaxMaxer]

This is entirely to protect the Sacred Cow that was the AoMF. If brass knuckles worked as written originally, like the gauntlets did before, then there would never be a reason to buy the AoMF, and monks would not be penalized on Amulet of Natural Armor.

Even the closest thing, Bodywraps of Mighty Strikes, are poorly written and mechanically cumbersome, because if you could enhance a monks hands at the same rate as a single weapon, -and- count as bypassing special materials, then there would no longer be a damage drop for monks compared to a single weapon user.

Which, since you can flurry with a single weapon(including the one hand you have GMF cast on), I don't see the reason to not treat them as a single weapon user when pricing itemization.

[Cheapy]

If they worked that way, you'd also have the absolutely ridiculous thing that is monks requiring weapons to fight 'unarmed'.

People act like it's the end of the world, but it really isn't.

[Mikaze]

Personally I'd resent having my unarmed ascetic living weapon forced to use brass knuckles, the iconic street thug weapon*, and cutting all of my attacks down to punch punch punch in order to keep up with the group. It would be even more if a flavor wrecker than the AoMF already is.

Bodywraps are visually more friendly with more flavors of monk, though I really do hope they get looked at again from the perspective of the current monk/AoMF.

*Like forcing Jet Li to fight exclusively with a magical broken bottle. Or playing Chun-Li with one boot with a knife in it, and the only special move you can do is Lightning Kick.

[Bigdaddyjug]

Part of the problem is that not all unarmed strikes are made with the hands. What happens when you use FoB and get 4 attacks, but you only have two hands. You can only make one attack with each limb/weapon. So what happens after your first two attacks with FoB? Does the damage for the rest drop because you're not using your enchanted brass knuckles to make them?

[Mikaze]

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

You can only make one attack with each limb/weapon.

This isn't the case. You can make all of your attacks with one limb. Heck, you could use just headbutts.

You just shouldn't have to.

[Eridan]

carn wrote:

No, ..

Kicking and punching in a very hard and effective way is also a martial arts technique.

Give me an explanation for the difference between a lvl20 monk (2d10) and lvl20 barbarian (1d3) unarmed strike damage.

You also ignore the description of the monk class

Quote:

Monk

For the truly exemplary, martial skill transcends the battlefield—it is a lifestyle, a doctrine, a state of mind. These warrior-artists search out methods of battle beyond swords and shields, finding weapons within themselves just as capable of crippling or killing as any blade. These monks (so called since they adhere to ancient philosophies and strict martial disciplines) elevate their bodies to become weapons of war, from battle-minded ascetics to self-taught brawlers. Monks tread the path of discipline, and those with the will to endure that path discover within themselves not what they are, but what they are meant to be.

Wait .. stop we are talking about realism/realistic explanations in/for a game. I quit this thread.

[Kazumetsa Raijin]

Cheapy wrote:

If they worked that way, you'd also have the absolutely ridiculous thing that is monks requiring weapons to fight 'unarmed'.

People act like it's the end of the world, but it really isn't.

They just need to bump the AoMF to +10 and get it over with. It's not going to be gamebreaking but it will certainly bring less frustration.

[Kazumetsa Raijin]

Mikaze wrote:

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

You can only make one attack with each limb/weapon.

This isn't the case. You can make all of your attacks with one limb. Heck, you could use just headbutts.

You just shouldn't have to.

Pelvic Thrusts are what all the cool kids are doing :3

[Bigdaddyjug]

Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:

Mikaze wrote:

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

You can only make one attack with each limb/weapon.

This isn't the case. You can make all of your attacks with one limb. Heck, you could use just headbutts.

You just shouldn't have to.

Pelvic Thrusts are what all the cool kids are doing :3

I tried that one, and now I need a hip replacement. Please PM me your address so I can have a runner serve you with the lawsuit. :)

[jlighter]

Cheapy wrote:

They do not let monks use their unarmed strike damage, because then it wouldn't be unarmed strike damage.

While the thread Cheapy posted was trumped by the Advanced Player's Guide, cited in various places, Ultimate Equipment trumps both and indicates that brass knuckles, gauntlets, and cesti are armed strikes and don't use Monk unarmed damage. :(

[Kazumetsa Raijin]

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:

Mikaze wrote:

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

You can only make one attack with each limb/weapon.

This isn't the case. You can make all of your attacks with one limb. Heck, you could use just headbutts.

You just shouldn't have to.

Pelvic Thrusts are what all the cool kids are doing :3

I tried that one, and now I need a hip replacement. Please PM me your address so I can have a runner serve you with the lawsuit. :)

Bwahahaha. Clearly you were doing it wrong D: Keep trying ;D

[Zhayne]

Eridan wrote:

JonGarrett wrote:

It makes you wonder - what exactly are on a Monk's hands? Because when you add several pounds of metal it massive reduces there damage. Are monks traditionally lead coated?

The monk uses martial art techniques to increase his damage like hitting nerves, veins, arteries, sensitive body parts etc. It is not only "in your face, harder is better". Otherwise there would be no difference between an unarmed fighter and a monk.

There really isn't any difference there. Fluff is mutable; if I want my monk to be a rough and tumble street brawler, I can. Same here. 'Punch you in the face a lot' is a perfectly valid fighting style.

[blackbloodtroll]

Also, not every Monk has to have an "Asian" flavor.

Shocking to some, but unarmed fighting styles existed, and still exist, throughout the world.

Your Monk could be a Russian Sambo master.

[Pendin Fust]

Capoeira style monk. His AoMF is gold and is a medallion too. A medallion that is a fist.

[blackbloodtroll]

Some DMs actually ban the Monk, because they don't want "Asian" classes.

Sometimes, it's a willful ignorance that other martial arts exist, or have existed.

[Pendin Fust]

Sigh...I know. All too well. That's when I *make* a monk and just tell them it is a Fighter (Unarmed Fighter) and see if they notice the difference...

And make lots of *hwah* sounds.

Not really...I just find a different game.

[Sean K Reynolds]

When I think of skilled martial artists in the real world, I fondly remember how often they rely on brass knuckles to be true badasses.

[Zhayne]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Some DMs actually ban the Monk, because they don't want "Asian" classes.

Sometimes, it's a willful ignorance that other martial arts exist, or have existed.

Or, again, you can just ignore the class fluff, or point to the part that says 'self-taught brawler'.

Or reflavor your knucks into those hand-and-wrist wraps.

[Pendin Fust]

Hah! Thanks Sean...someone has truly...err...great...Photoshop skills.

[Bigdaddyjug]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

When I think of skilled martial artists in the real world, I fondly remember how often they rely on brass knuckles to be true badasses.

The only thing to say to this is:

/thread

[Drake Brimstone]

I give up, I'll go with the RAW interpretation of Monk's Unarmed strike and enchant my fists.

Spoiler:

A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

And don't even try telling me my fists aren't masterwork! (Besides, I could just use oil of Masterwork Transformation.)

[Claxon]

You can't enhance your fists. You can however cast greater magic fang(unarmed strike) have it permanacied and then also purchase a Amulet of Mighty Fists. The Monk gets the ability to bypass DR from class levels. He gets magic, cold iron, silver, law, and adamantine and only misses DR good, evil, chaos so you would need to choose either to add enhancements to the amulet of mighty fist for things like impact etc, or ignore greater magic fang and just enhance the amulet of mighty fist to +5 (so you bypass all DR types that can be bypassed) and then enhance the remaining +3 effective with other enhancements.

By RAW, you cannot enhance your fists as magical weapons. They are not masterwork items, and masterwork transformation will not work on them.

[James Risner]

Are wrote:

The sad thing about this is that 3.5 ruled the opposite way for gauntlets; in that system a monk could use +5 gauntlets and get his full unarmed strike damage on top of the +5 attack/damage.

WotC never ruled on it, at least in the hundreds of threads I participated and read in 3.5 days I don't recall ever seeing a ruling either way from WotC. I think what you are remembering is the 3.5 rules "attorneys" didn't have anyone to dissuade them from the power grab of it working and providing Monk Unarmed damage.

Claxon wrote:

By RAW, you cannot enhance your fists as magical weapons. They are not masterwork items, and masterwork transformation will not work on them.

He quoted a way he can use with "Permissive RAW" to overrule you. So I'm sure he will respond with "you are wrong." ;-)

[TheLoneCleric]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

When I think of skilled martial artists in the real world, I fondly remember how often they rely on brass knuckles to be true badasses.

Really now?

I guess the Greeks and Romans were doing it wrong. And the Filipino's were off too.

I wonder why they were so popular during WWI and the Civil War then.

[Claxon]

James Risner wrote:

[

Claxon wrote:

By RAW, you cannot enhance your fists as magical weapons. They are not masterwork items, and masterwork transformation will not work on them.

He quoted a way he can use with "Permissive RAW" to overrule you. So I'm sure he will respond with "you are wrong." ;-)

If he's got a GM whom he can convince his fists are items (and therefore not part of him) then more power to him I guess. That crap wouldn't fly at my table.

[Davick]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

When I think of skilled martial artists in the real world, I fondly remember how often they rely on brass knuckles to be true badasses.

When I think of skilled warriors in the real world, I fondly remember how often they rely on magic rings, amulets, weapons, armor, cloaks, helms, gloves, and boots to be true badasses.

Or the alternative:

When I think of skilled martial artists in the real world, I fondly remember them getting their asses kicked because they were woefully incompetent.

Maybe they should have worn brass knuckles.

[Damian Vryce Kil'Cannon]

Checkout the talented monk which has a talent that allows you to benefit with a weapon and monk damage. Super genious brings life back to the monk.

[James Risner]

Those monk's needed to bypass DR/Adamantine.
So they started wearing Adamantine Brass Knuckles.

[Bizbag]

TheLoneCleric wrote:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

When I think of skilled martial artists in the real world, I fondly remember how often they rely on brass knuckles to be true badasses.

Really now?

I guess the Greeks and Romans were doing it wrong. And the Filipino's were off too.

I wonder why they were so popular during WWI and the Civil War then.

More people should hear the story of Los Tiburon, the Mexican-wrestling monk, and how he made it to level 4.

[GeneticDrift]

Davick wrote:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

When I think of skilled martial artists in the real world, I fondly remember how often they rely on brass knuckles to be true badasses.

When I think of skilled warriors in the real world, I fondly remember how often they rely on magic rings, amulets, weapons, armor, cloaks, helms, gloves, and boots to be true badasses.

Or the alternative:

When I think of skilled martial artists in the real world, I fondly remember them getting their asses kicked because they were woefully incompetent.

Maybe they should have worn brass knuckles.

being bad-ass is not determined by the CR of your opponents or your level. For the most part we enjoy having magic items in the game, fantasy stories like LotR or Dresden are filled with magic items. A GM can make magic items unnecessary if that is preferred.

[Davick]

GeneticDrift wrote:

Davick wrote:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

When I think of skilled martial artists in the real world, I fondly remember how often they rely on brass knuckles to be true badasses.

When I think of skilled warriors in the real world, I fondly remember how often they rely on magic rings, amulets, weapons, armor, cloaks, helms, gloves, and boots to be true badasses.

Or the alternative:

When I think of skilled martial artists in the real world, I fondly remember them getting their asses kicked because they were woefully incompetent.

Maybe they should have worn brass knuckles.

being bad-ass is not determined by the CR of your opponents or your level. For the most part we enjoy having magic items in the game, fantasy stories like LotR or Dresden are filled with magic items. A GM can make magic items unnecessary if that is preferred.

Exactly. If SKR wants his monks to not need weapons or any magic items, he needs to adjust the rules for that. But here in Pathfinder we don't have badass martial artists like the ones he's talking about because the rules aren't conducive to it.

[Halfway-Hagan]

The problem I have with all this Knuckles not doing unarmed damaga and being light weapons in the DESCRIPTION in UE. It seems everyone is only staring at the weapons chart and ingnoring the description of Brass Knuckles in UE.
They allow you to do lethal damage instead of non lethan with unarmed strikes.

Thats it, you still have to use an unarmed strike to use the things.
And if you have to use an unarmed strike to use them...then..they do unarmed damage.

If not they are without a doubt the dumbest entry and only designed to take up page space for filler. There is absolutely no reason to use them otherwise, gauntlets trump them since you can hold AND wield weapons with gauntlets but no knuckles and still do lethal damage using unarmed strikes.

I want to see an official ruling on these from a Developer...not a designer, not subscribers, not rpg gods....a developer.

To me the description trumps the chart.

Why has no developer that I can find posted on this?

[deuxhero]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Also, not every Monk has to have an "Asian" flavor.

Shocking to some, but unarmed fighting styles existed, and still exist, throughout the world.

Your Monk could be a Russian Sambo master.

Too bad asceticism is actually ingrained in the class's mechanics as well as their name. They get Knowledge: Religion, proficiency with "eastern" weapon, have to be lawful, Ki ect.

You SHOULD be able to make a western badass martial artist (preferably as a feat line, not a class or archetype), but the Monk is not made for that (and Martial Artist drops the best parts of the monk for meh).

Trung Bui wrote:

Yeah, that is pretty much a bummer. I wanted to create a melee Batman build (Arkham Style of combat) that was based around charging and it doesn't make much sense. That just sounds like a house ruling idea. Feels like Paizo sort of feels like they shot themselves in the foot by releasing the item and back pedaling because they found out "Uh oh, monks don't need the Amulet of Mighty Fists anymore!"

Which is annoying, because the Amulet of Mighty Fists would still get used even with a "replacement": It actually benefits things that get a lot of natural attacks, like a Summoner, a Druid or an AC perfectly fine (though the Druid will likely be GMFing himself and/or companion) perfectly fine and the price drop did more for them than the Monk.

[gnomersy]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

When I think of skilled martial artists in the real world, I fondly remember how often they rely on brass knuckles to be true badasses.

When I think of skilled martial artists in the real world I ignore that the vast majority are trying not to kill the people they hit and the ones who aren't tend to make use of weapons to increase their ability to kill people. Oh wait paizo did that already well shucks.

[DrDeth]

Halfway-Hagan wrote:

I want to see an official ruling on these from a Developer...not a designer, not subscribers, not rpg gods....a developer.

To me the description trumps the chart.

Why has no developer that I can find posted on this?

Sean is a developer. That's what "designer" means.

[blackbloodtroll]

Bit of an odd Necro.

[Rynjin]

DrDeth wrote:

Halfway-Hagan wrote:

I want to see an official ruling on these from a Developer...not a designer, not subscribers, not rpg gods....a developer.

To me the description trumps the chart.

Why has no developer that I can find posted on this?

Sean is a developer. That's what "designer" means.

Well technically they're different positions but for this purpose they may as well be the same.