Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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I think I've seen some scenarios where the written tactic was to go over the Lowest AC. Not what looked to be the squishiest, but the mechanically lowest. However, I can't remember any specifically, so my mind might be playing tricks on me there. I hope it is, because magically zooming in on the low ac sounds like cheating.
Re: disguises for the squishy to look like a tank. That's been fine so far in PFS. But I can't wait to see the look on the PC's face when they fight a gunslinger who's tactics are to shoot the toughest looking tin-can with their touch-ac guns.
I'd like to add my two cents. As you know, the GM in question is my husband. I have sat at his table, more times than I can count and several of my characters have died during those home campaigns. Yes, it stings but I would expect nothing less from him. He plays and fights fair.
The thing is, any one of our GM's could have run Way of the Kirin that night. All of them want you to have fun, be engaged and feel a little danger. However, they are not there to be our best friends. We roll against them, they roll against us. None of us can control what the dice decide, as much as we'd like to. For me, that's the part of the excitement.
I am willing to bet that had another one of our GM's run that night, the same thing would have happened. Then we wouldn't even be having this discussion. But since we are, I will end by saying this. We all have choices to make while playing this game. From how we build our characters, to creating a back story for RP purposes, to making split second decisions during game play that sometimes work out and sometimes get us killed.
The GM has the same kind of decisions to make. Most of the time, they lose. Their PC's die by our hand. But every now and then, we die at theirs. I agree, it sucks but it's part of the adventure.
IQuarent,
I've talked to the GM who ran "Way of the Kirin" about your PC's death and I don't think he unfairly targeted you, nor do I think he has a personal vendetta against you. You decided to stay in the fight after being dropped to less than half hp in the surprise round. You could have backed out and healed yourself, or simply removed yourself from being the most obvious target for the next attack, but decided to remain and present your foes with a target they knew from experience could be hit. I don't believe you were the victim of bad GMing. I think you made a very risky tactical decision (given your current hit points and the proven ability of your foes to dish out at least as much damage as they had done before) and it went against you.Luckily you had enough prestige to be resurrected so you get to learn from your decision and play this PC again, perhaps a bit more cautiously.
Also, in the future I would ask that you take up these kinds of issues with me in person or via email before taking them to the Paizo messageboards. Airing your criticisms of people you play with here can create bad feelings among your actual community who run games for you. Remember that there's a very good chance that your GMs read these posts as well, and they can tell from your posts which games (and people) you are talking about.
Wait, what???
It appears that there has been a pretty huge misunderstanding here... Let me explain.I made this thread to get some help from unbiased observers about the situation that happened. I tried to be as honest as I could and also tried to make it clear that I was open to taking fault, entirely or partly. I intentionally left out the GM's name in question because I did not want to put him in a negative light. Perhaps it was a mistake to mention the name of the scenario, but 1). It would take a fair bit of work for people who, for some reason, really want to know who the GM was, as they would have to check every one of my characters to see to whom it was credited and 2). I wanted to give a better idea of the situation so that others could help me analyze exactly what happened; that's the point after all.
There were several things that I reasoned could have happened here;
1. I made a mistake, in the way I played it out, or in my reasoning, or in how I saw the situation.
2. As I said, sometimes people get frustrated when they play with me(I have now discovered why and am working on it). I thought that there was a VERY SLIM CHANCE that the GM felt that I was disrupting the game and that for the good of the table, he felt he needed to remove me from it. I know how this has to work sometimes, becasue it's easier to kill them in game then to stop the game and boot me. Alex, you've booted players before so I think you know what I'm talking about. But, IF this happened, it would be on my shoulders for disrupting the game and the GM did what he had to do. GMing isn't always fun or easy, and I understand that.
3. The GM made a mistake. By 'made a mistake' I mean made the mistake of throwing too much at one character, resulting in the characters death. If this was the case, it resulting in death was an honest mistake. The reason I said "maybe he doesn't like me???" is becasue maybe he didn't like the character or myself, and threw a lot at my character as a result. Like I said, I sometimes have a tendency to annoy people.
NEVER did I say that I thought he singled me out and killed me character for no good reason. I never even thought, and hopefully didn't imply, that he had a personal vendetta against me. The worst I think he might have done was, kill me by ACCIDENT, or, remove me from the game as a result of negative behavior on my part. At worst, I thought he made a mistake by throwing too much at my character. This was what I thought before I realized it was my fault.
NEVER did I say that he thought that he was a bad GM or that I did not respect him in the fullest. The very worst I thought he did was make a mistake. We all make mistakes. I respect the GM and I enjoy playing with him.
People seem to be taking this personally, so I want to acknowledge that I made this thread to help me look over the situation to see what happened. Based on the responses I've gotten, most people seemed to understand this (Although I didn't at all understand why someone would ask if he rolled in the open until Alex made his post), and as a result of these answers I concluded that it was unwise to move to attack after taking 20 damage, and that the resulting death was due to a misplay. Never, ever, ever, was a stern talking from a venture captain something that I thought needed to happen to him, and since it did happen and didn't need to I'm going to have to apologize to him. I was never incriminating him or anyone, and as I said, I left out his name to detach blame. I wasn't intending to criticizing him as a specific person. I was trying to treat the situation as a situation and that's it; I wanted people to see the situation as it happened and tell me what they thought. I was not asking if they thought he was a bad GM, because he absolutely is not. I didn't feel it was necessary to come to you, Alex, because it was a vanilla question about a pathfinder play. The point was to get advice from people who WEREN'T the people I was playing with.
Am I making sense?
EDIT: "Stern talking to from the venture captain" was a metaphor for the awkward and usually unpleasant talk that comes when a venture captain has to confront a player or GM about a complaint. I didn't mean an actual stern talk, as that doesn't fit the context of Alex's post. (I guess it's no wonder people keep misunderstanding me)
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1. We both agree.
2. People will not like others. Since DMs are imperfect some will take on other players in the game. I was once running an errand for the GM at one of our local events. Someone I know in passing was at the store and pulled me aside. He told me that the GM wa sbragging to others about how he would kill my hcaracters and he has said this kind of things before in front of him. Maybe that person was lying to me, but things like that happen.
3. The scenarios are a script. The DMs are meant to follow a script. Intelligent opponenets will try to bring people down. Now the DM rolling all the dice at once i think is wrong. Since they all get to react with each other the first hit should have brought you down. Then the next attacker should have looked at another PC to bomb. Ofcourse this depends the tactics of the opponenets. He pretty much attacked you while you were down.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Perspective:
I want to post here because I've been mentally coming to grips with the same thing over the past week, or few months. I've been playing pathfinder society since I just moved, and the group I've been gaming with is hundreds of miles away, and they were easy to find. I like the game masters I've had and I have only my death rate to consider them being anything but fair. They roll in the open, which we call "hard mode" and nobody seems to be cheating.Observations:
The thing is I've seen 3 total party kills, and I've lost 3 characters in three months (14 games). The only character I've gotten beyond 4 adventures is a Aasimar Paladin, the most survivable character in the game. (nobody fights him because he's in armor, when attacked he is seldom hit, and he heals himself) He's made it to 3rd level. I'm so frustrated I've almost quit, twice.
Welcome to PFS! I'm sorry you're feeling so frustrated, especially so early on. That death rate does seem higher than normal to me, but I'm just one data point. Even so, I'll address what I can from your post:
Thoughts on Tactics:
I find the trend of attacking the least armored person unfair. If it is party against party, they know they eventually need to get EVERYONE. So the most dangerous looking should be the method.If the villain group works together well, and they know someone has ranged touch attacks to use on the armored then I can see some of the ignore heavily armored people.
But for goblins and other humanoids (and lesser monsters), they should not have any anti-party tactics, as they should have never gone against a party before. Unless it's in their background, it should be assumed a party would have killed them. They may have tactics for attaching solders and other threats they would have survived. But they need to a have survived such an encounter before (multiple times for non-super geniuses) to have such tactics.
The tactics are almost always written into the scenario, with varying degrees of specificity. Also, GMs are instructed to adjust tactics if PC actions invalidate them.
All in all, the topic of tactics is so hard to discuss theoretically that there's not much help I can offer. It's going to be pretty subjective. If you suspect that GMs are throwing written tactics out the window with no good justification, that would be something to bring up with them and/or with your local Venture Captain (in a polite manner, preferably not during a game). Other than that, though, there's not much I can offer.Thoughts on Pathfinder Adventures:
I find it particularly distressing that it appears that we need to fight several equal to us encounters before having a chance to rest. It seems to me that the pathfinder society modules should only be survived with GM's that willingly bend the rules.
The entire Pathfinder RPG game system is designed and balanced around the assumption of multiple encounters in a single day. Unless by "rest" you mean "a minute or two to bust out the wands of cure light wounds"? Most scenarios don't have back-to-back encounters with no time to heal in between (though a couple do), so if GMs are slamming everything together you might need to address it. But if you just mean that you have to complete 3-5 encounters without a chance for a full night's rest and getting all your spells back, then that's the standard assumption of the Core Rules.
My Gaming Background:
So realize, I am new to Pathfinder society. I've only played 14 games. But I have been playing D&D (and moved over to pathfinder when the core rule book came out) for 30 years. I am not perfect, but I don't think I'm "bad" either. This is not my first death, I now have reasonable statistics indicating this is a very lethal game.
Have you played other organized play campaigns? Similarly, have you played with lots of different groups without seeing if the people in them were like you first? Or, is this a small-ish community in an area where new people don't join in very often?
Human beings have a tendency to:
1) Gravitate toward people like themselves
2) Spend all their time with those people
3) Look back and conclude that since they've been doing X all their lives, and all their friends do X, that X must be the norm.
So if, upon joining a bunch of strangers in a new region, you find that your experience is vastly different than what you were expecting; I imagine one of two things is happening:
1) You spent 30 years in much-softer-than-the-norm gaming environments and came to believe it to be the norm, then you moved and your bubble popped.
2) An area developed a shared culture of lethality, beyond the baseline expectations of the game, and you've stepped into their bubble.
(It's also very possible that both #1 and #2 happened at the same time.)
Effects:
Due to the tactics I've seen game masters use here, I will not play an arcane spellcaster, of any type. it's just asking for more death. I, now, always put my favored class point to hp (new habit). And I'm seriously considering dropping pathfinder society, even if it means no more gaming. I like "growing" a character. This has been impossible for me here. So I'm not getting what I want from the game.
Again, I can't know enough variables to really know the root of the issue you're experiencing. I do have an idea, though: check out the official pregenerated characters (especially the wizard, if you're afraid to ever play an arcane caster). Look at how their stats are distributed, what their AC and HP are, what kind of spells and feats they have, etc. See if you notice any stark differences between the pregens (which sort of represent the baseline assumption of character building, perhaps even a tad on the weak end) and your own PCs.
Do the pregens look like builds you would normally associate with excessive powergaming? If so, then PFS in general is probably not for you, unless you're interested in some stretching and horizon-broadening. Do the pregens look like things that would get hopelessly slaughtered in the games you've seen? Then it's possible that your local PFS chapter has a "hard-core" culture - in which case you could see whether other players enjoy that challenge level or not; if not, you could lobby for change, or if so, then at least not every PFS chapter is going to be like that so you at least don't have to give up on the whole campaign (you could even try playing online).
One final tip (or more like self-promotion, heh) is that I wrote this guide to surviving first level in PFS, which hopefully you can get a little help from.
Hope I've been helpful, and I hope you find your way into a gaming routine that suits you! :)
EDIT: Oh, one other thing: recently there was somebody who was struggling, and it turned out he was vastly under-equipped because he was misinformed about what equipment his PC was able to buy. Make sure you understand how item purchasing works!
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The thing is I've seen 3 total party kills, and I've lost 3 characters in three months (14 games). The only character I've gotten beyond 4 adventures is a Aasimar Paladin, the most survivable character in the game. (nobody fights him because he's in armor, when attacked he is seldom hit, and he heals himself) He's made it to 3rd level. I'm so frustrated I've almost quit, twice.
OMF... thats really rough. Is it the same DM? Are most of the kills first levels?
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The thing is I've seen 3 total party kills, and I've lost 3 characters in three months (14 games). The only character I've gotten beyond 4 adventures is a Aasimar Paladin, the most survivable character in the game. (nobody fights him because he's in armor, when attacked he is seldom hit, and he heals himself) He's made it to 3rd level. I'm so frustrated I've almost quit, twice.OMF... thats really rough. Is it the same DM? Are most of the kills first levels?
Yeah, that's an excessive death rate. I've GMed 42 sessions of PFS, and I've only killed one PC. Twice, I've let newbies "off the hook" by making borderline rulings that let them survive, specifically to avoid scaring off first time players. But I've never fudged dice or modified an adventure to make it easier.
It sounds like your GMs are playing the enemies as more tactically smart than they should be. Also, how many people are at your tables and what adventures are you playing? The newer scenarios from the end of season 3 and all of season 4 are built for 6 players, rather than 4, so they're much tougher.
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I have defeated more PCs than I have killed by far. On 2 separate conclusions I have defeated the entire PC party and not killed anyone. I have yet to TPK. I have killed a few players and many of my pregens( I am ruthless on these guys). The player deaths(if I remember correctly) all were from bad ideas I stopped the game, I told them not to do it, and they decided to anyway. The sad part is some of them were not the players making the bad ideas.
City of strangers two, The bad guy captured the PCs and they agreed to join shadow lodge or never return to the city.
First steps part1. Ledford and his crew did not kil the PCs that dropped they just robbed them and left them and one PC that was staggered just let them. Then healed the party.
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Honestly, "running away" is such an underused tactic. Putting distance between yourself and the baddies can be huge. Heal up with a wand or some potions if the cleric doesn't go before you in initiative. Playing smart usually means appearing a coward, and unless you have a legitimate reason not to run away (for instance, you're a freaking Paladin), then taking flight can let you fight another day.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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Regarding early level survivability, the two most important things in my mind are to have a Wand of Cure Light Wounds and a way to deal damage both in melee and at range. Also, have a reasonable stock of basic utility items - rope, trail rations, scrolls (for casters), etc. If you're doing these things and still dying at such a rate, then either your GM is *very* tough or you've been remarkably unlucky.
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I have GMed about 35 or so PFS tables, and only came close to a TPK once, and that was an underprepared party for what they encountered. I did TPK a grandfathered game of Ruby Phoenix Tournament, but, again, that was a group of PCs built without a proper appreciation fr he benefits of consumables.
And the Ruby Phoenix was because they didn't have anything to help them handle the results of certain spells, like Force Cage. At 11th level, you should have some way to deal with certain things...
Earlier tonight, I did almost kill another PC, he was at -9 hit points, and grappled by an unintelligent baddy only interested in eating him. Fortunately, this party was much better prepared. Before the downed PC's turn came up, he had been healed enough to be conscious, and, with the benefit of another member of the party's Grease spell, was able to break free and get away before the creature's next turn.
Really, deadliness for PFS is, at least partly, based not on just PC builds, but how well the party works together. And works together doesn't mean having a Cleric, Fighter, Rogue and Wizard form the core of the party, but making sure you maximize your party's synergies while doing what you can to minimize your party's weaknesses.
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Yeah, that's an excessive death rate. I've GMed 42 sessions of PFS, and I've only killed one PC. Twice, I've let newbies "off the hook" by making borderline rulings that let them survive, specifically to avoid scaring off first time players. But I've never fudged dice or modified an adventure to make it easier.
Actually, I should have mentioned that I see PC deaths a little more than that. That's just my rate as a GM. As a player, I've had 3 PC deaths in over 100 games, but all were after the characters were high enough level to be able to afford to be brought back. And I've seen maybe 12-15 deaths of other PCs at my tables. More than half of those were in two games that were near-TPK situations.
And as mentioned by others, I've seen groups defeated, but not killed, on more than one occasion, as well. As a GM, I've "won" against the PCs once in 42 sessions. As a player, I've had at least 7 or 8 scenarios (out of over 100) where we retreated as a team to regroup, then went back in better prepared for that enemy. Most of those times, we've won on the second attempt, though two of those turned into the near-TPKs mentioned above, even on the second tries.
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I've killed 3 PCs (4 if you count the breath of life lol) as a GM in scenarios. (GMd about 60 scenarios) All of those deaths were erroneous play.
1st PC kill - a level 2 playing up in a tier 3-4, ran up and stabbed a CR 5 creature, who then killed him in a full round. (10 con rogue vs Large earth elemental...)
2nd PC Kill - Level 1 monk runs up to an owlbear, yeah...
3rd PC kill - area of deeper darkness, guy is running away, gets hit by an AoO and then stops to shoot the creatue.... then gets full attacked by a rogue he can't see, probably would have gotten out of the darkness had he just kept moving....
4th PC kill - Same gunslinger from 3, just got trampled by a huge creature, shoots it from prone provoking and the creature crits, exactly negative 12. gets Breath of life however.
I have not yet had a PC die (though the GM was being nice, had he been mean it would have just meant Breath of life, instead it was cure critical lol) sometimes you take a lot of damage from things at tier 10-11 :)
Tier 1-2 and 10-11 are the most lethal. at both of those levels, a random crit can just kill you.
well technically 12+ but I'm not talking about modules/specials.
My Eidolon died once, got crit by a greataxe in a 4-5, when I was level 3.
I have killed a few animal companions. they often get sacrificed to eat AoOs or provoke things that grapple to grab them :)
I have seen 3 other notable character deaths.
one was a 5 playing up to an 8-9 against 2 devil's casting blasting spells, he didn't run away, 3rd one killed him.
One was a party that had no way to deal with improved invisibility, and they got unlucky on miss-chances, only 1 PC died but it was scary.
the last one was a cleric making a heroic sacrifice for his party :)
Jiggy's guide to surviving first level is an excellent resource.
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That is an excessive death toll, IMHO. I've NEVER had a TPK at my table and can count on one hand the number of PC deaths (player deaths are an entirely different matter and I choose to take the 5th).
I would be more than happy to look over your character sheets or talk privately about the scenarios in general. Something Jiggy didn't mention as a possibility would be that most of those 14 games are from the more recent seasons (higher difficulty) or a good percentage of the more deadly ones (Dalsine....Alex!).
Either way, it kind of sounds fishy to me. Based on no evidence of course, just my gut reaction.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I play with several of the same area GM's and I know that most of them do not pull punches. Our dwarven barbarian was killed 3 times in Ruby Phoenix alone (in his case he has really low ac, but loves to run in anyway, so he sort of expects it now).
I do so love killing that poor dwarf. <--- THIS IS A JOKE.
But seriously, who doesn't love playing with PCs who have access to reach breath of life?
GMing Ruby Phoenix actually gave me an interesting perspective, because (and I apologize for the very minor spoiler) in a tournament setting, enemies get the opportunity to see the PCs in action before a combat. So I have been able to tailor tactics a little more, which was tons of fun! Why cast fear on a paladin when they've seen it fail? Or why attack that lady with the fan when clearly no one can hit her?
While that was fun, it made me realize how effective a little bit of trickery is when the enemies are always just meeting you for the first time. The hat of disguise trick earlier sounds amazing. Get some glamered armor and look like whatever threat you want to portray. It should at least get PCs through the surprise round!
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Sounds like a , "perfect storm" scenario to me...on several levels.
Whatever you do - you're going get the most mileage if you sit down privately and talk to the GM.
More Advice:
1. Be the GM.
2. Take a break from PFS. If they need you in the chair, they're more likely to protect you. Additionally, if they're leveling up whilst you're remaking level one's - they are going to be stuck until you catch up to them. This assuming you don't play pregens, play up, etc.
3. Make an indestructable character. Shield Paladins with Hero's Defiance are hard to kill. Get some AC and hit points. GMs tend to ignore those guys. Also - there's an 18 CON Summoner build out there that's perfect for your situation.
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On recent scenarios being more deadly, and the requirement work together.
Then, we played it yesterday. The table was Paladin 3, Life Oracle 3, Cleric 4, Magus/Bard 3/1, Pregen Samurai 4, Rogue/Sorcerer 3/1.
First a note on pregens... make sure you carefully read them over. The stat blocks on them, much like those in scenarios, do not usually take into consideration thing like wielding weapons 2-handed (such as the samurai), or Power Attack. Especially when having a newbie player at the table, make sure to list out his options. This turned the Samurai from a rather "meh" +9/1d8+4 to +7/1d8+11!
So, on Wave 1, with the Conscripts... they hadn't managed to gain any defense points, so had to face all 7 level 4 warriors. So, without the terrain to help (the manor, specifically), they would have been completely out-classed. With it, they were able to funnel the conscripts thought the doors (spash of boiling oil!), and windows. Even still, the Cleric went down (to about -9) from a battle-ax crit, and the Samurai probably took over twice his hit points in damage (before healing). This battle was a close thing... and in it, we learned the mighty "Falling Magus Trick" (the Magus leaped from the upstairs window to charge attack a conscript below him... with a shocking grasp spell strike... one crit later, the heavily wounded conscript was at -30). This saved the Paladin, who was fighting 2-3 of the conscripts by himself.
In the entry-way were 4-5 of the conscripts, trying to force their way in. At first, it was only the samurai holding the gap, but was joined by the cleric and Oracle, later followed by the rest. Seeing the healers keeping the samurai up, they started targeting the healers... and the ones at the back targeted the Magus once he came around. This battle took a LONG time, but the players finally won it. A lot of healing happened after, and then the attempts to prep for the next wave.
Again, they had split themselves up, before the four saboteurs came in. Those bombs were DEADLY!!! At one point, before the cleric got wise and started using Create Water to douse the flames, the Samurai was at -9, and burning, and the Cleric, Oracle, and Magus were all on fire. Had he not started doing this, this would have been a TPK. I am very glad the player of the Cleric thought of this (and had the spell memorized!). Otherwise, I am sure death would have come to them all.
As for the final fight (due to time we had to skip the optional encounter), the BBEG was targeting the Paladin (mostly because he was closest, and then because of the crit he was hit with from the smiting Pally)... even though the Pally had an AC of 27 (due to smite), and was being missed.
So, the key here was that the group (in the end) worked well together, mostly thanks to the two healers, and were able to save their companions. This was a very deadly adventure, so I do expect to hear of a good number of TPKs, especially if the players don't work together.
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Sounds like I've had a few more PC deaths and even tpk's at my tables than most have. I only hope that is due to more sessions GM'd and that my ratio is in line with others.
Anyway, IME, all the tpk's I can recall, and most of the PC deaths have been due to the players making bad decisions or "forgetting" their character's abilities. In some cases, I have not soo subtly advised the players to run away, but they rarely want to leave a fallen comrade. I guess Pathfinder agents are all former US marines :-)
All right here's the deal.
** spoiler omitted **
Now, is this just a fluke (they made all their saves...
You've been chosen to be ganked. It is a heavy burden. Welcome to Dark Souls.
Not sure how that boss knew your char had the lowest AC. It must be an all knowing boss. :D
You can turn this to your advantage though, play a real blocker, something like a dex/con fighter, and go full defence when you think the pain will be coming (for more hp, you could go barb and take heavy armour proficiency). Now that helps less against ambush and touch alchemists, but if you play it safe and defensive and you get ganked again, you will absolutely know you are being targetted.
Then, I would air my dirty laundry and publicly resign. The dm should be fair, balanced and impartial. Murdering you for giggles over and over is not fun for you and they shouldn't be doing it. So they deserve some chastisement, for justice.
Good luck.
Sounds like a , "perfect storm" scenario to me...on several levels.
Whatever you do - you're going get the most mileage if you sit down privately and talk to the GM.More Advice:
1. Be the GM.
2. Take a break from PFS. If they need you in the chair, they're more likely to protect you. Additionally, if they're leveling up whilst you're remaking level one's - they are going to be stuck until you catch up to them. This assuming you don't play pregens, play up, etc.
3. Make an indestructable character. Shield Paladins with Hero's Defiance are hard to kill. Get some AC and hit points. GMs tend to ignore those guys. Also - there's an 18 CON Summoner build out there that's perfect for your situation.
Great advice!
If you are nigh impervious, or it is way too much hassle to kill you, a bully dm may move on looking for another fix. Giving them zero feedback from injuring a pc can also help. Don't indulge the sadism, "yep, it is a few more hp, I've got buckets left, buckers! My pally carries his hp in buckets on his shoulders, which flow down sustaining his perfect, invincible form".
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Then, I would air my dirty laundry and publicly resign
I disagree and advise against it. No one is served by public attacks and it violates the Paizo messageboard code of conduct anyway. If you feel your GM is being a jerk, I would recommend you talk to them about it. These days people seem to be afraid to confront someone who has wronged them. I don't get it. What are they really gonna do to you?
If you do not get an appropriate response from the GM, escalate the issue to your organizer, then to the local Venture-Officer/s, and then to Mike Brock. The process is really quite simple. It really gets tiresome reading GM-based session rants even when the GM's identity is being protected, especially when it is discovered the OP has failed to follow the prescribed complaint process.
And while we do not want to see players quit (we really don't), we hate it more when someone rants and then declares they are taking their football and going home.
Explore! Report! Cooperate!
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All right here's the deal.
** spoiler omitted **
Now, is this just a fluke (they made all their saves...
You've been chosen to be ganked. It is a heavy burden. Welcome to Dark Souls.
Not sure how that boss knew your char had the lowest AC. It must be an all knowing boss. :D
You can turn this to your advantage though, play a real blocker, something like a dex/con fighter, and go full defence when you think the pain will be coming (for more hp, you could go barb and take heavy armour proficiency). Now that helps less against ambush and touch alchemists, but if you play it safe and defensive and you get ganked again, you will absolutely know you are being targetted.
Then, I would air my dirty laundry and publicly resign. The dm should be fair, balanced and impartial. Murdering you for giggles over and over is not fun for you and they shouldn't be doing it. So they deserve some chastisement, for justice.
Good luck.
Or...don't be a jerk and talk like mature adults?!? Seriously, a good chat solves a LOT of issues.
Then, I would air my dirty laundry and publicly resignI disagree and advise against it. No one is served by public attacks and it violates the Paizo messageboard code of conduct anyway. If you feel your GM is being a jerk, I would recommend you talk to them about it. These days people seem to be afraid to confront someone who has wronged them. I don't get it. What are they really gonna do to you?
If you do not get an appropriate response from the GM, escalate the issue to your organizer, then to the local Venture-Officer/s, and then to Mike Brock. The process is really quite simple. It really gets tiresome reading GM-based session rants even when the GM's identity is being protected, especially when it is discovered the OP has failed to follow the prescribed complaint process.
And while we do not want to see players quit (we really don't), we hate it more when someone rants and then declares they are taking their football and going home.
Explore! Report! Cooperate!
Expose sadistic and unfair dms, everyone wins (except the dodgy dms).
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Expose sadistic and unfair dms, everyone wins (except the dodgy dms).Then, I would air my dirty laundry and publicly resignI disagree and advise against it. No one is served by public attacks and it violates the Paizo messageboard code of conduct anyway. If you feel your GM is being a jerk, I would recommend you talk to them about it. These days people seem to be afraid to confront someone who has wronged them. I don't get it. What are they really gonna do to you?
If you do not get an appropriate response from the GM, escalate the issue to your organizer, then to the local Venture-Officer/s, and then to Mike Brock. The process is really quite simple. It really gets tiresome reading GM-based session rants even when the GM's identity is being protected, especially when it is discovered the OP has failed to follow the prescribed complaint process.
And while we do not want to see players quit (we really don't), we hate it more when someone rants and then declares they are taking their football and going home.
Explore! Report! Cooperate!
Why do you assume all DM are unfair or sadistic?!? In this case, it's been pretty much made clear, even by VO investigation that this was NOT THE CASE. And even if that is the case, there are better ways to deal with it then be a jerk. Like talk with the coordinator/VO/mike brock.
All? Where are you getting all from?
I'm a dm, I am not on board with being unfair or sadistic. I have come across it, so I am not one to be an apologist for that type of dm behaviour.
I don't see anything jerk-like about calling out a dodgy dm when they have been unfairly targetting a player, and killing their chars off when others are not even slightly targetted (second example from the original poster). If you want to call someone a jerk for complaining, make sure they aren't a victim of in-game dm sadism please. This is a problem in our hobby (it can take some dms a while to give it up).
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Sounds like I've had a few more PC deaths and even tpk's at my tables than most have. I only hope that is due to more sessions GM'd and that my ratio is in line with others.
Anyway, IME, all the tpk's I can recall, and most of the PC deaths have been due to the players making bad decisions or "forgetting" their character's abilities. In some cases, I have not soo subtly advised the players to run away, but they rarely want to leave a fallen comrade. I guess Pathfinder agents are all former US marines :-)
I actually saw this exact situation Saturday. Rogue falls to big nommings from a [redacted to avoid spoilers]. The paladin didn't know if the rogue was dead, dying, or faking it but the small room is full of baddies. So the paladin steps into the room and closes the door behind him. This was one of the best examples of playing LG I had seen in a while. The player was absolutely going to try to save his party member but he knew it was suicidal so he closed the door behind him to keep the rest of the party safe.
A good death.
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*bangs head against desk*
NO NO NO NO NO!!!
Lawful good does NOT mean lawful stupid. No god is going to require their paladin to COMMIT SUICIDE!!! In fact, it's probably forbidden in most religions.
If you know you can't possibly succeed in rescuing your ally, then you'll be much more useful to the world and your god, not to mention honoring your fallen comrade's sacrifice, by surviving to fight another day.
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*bangs head against desk*
NO NO NO NO NO!!!
Lawful good does NOT mean lawful stupid. No god is going to require their paladin to COMMIT SUICIDE!!! In fact, it's probably forbidden in most religions.
If you know you can't possibly succeed in rescuing your ally, then you'll be much more useful to the world and your god, not to mention honoring your fallen comrade's sacrifice, by surviving to fight another day.
No, lawful good =/= lawful stupid.
However, a personal sacrifice to save a number of others is a terrific literary trope (as long as it's not overdone, of course) and can make for a spectacular, memorable PC conclusion. Certainly not a requirement, but for those who see their character as such, it would fit well.
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*bangs head against desk*
NO NO NO NO NO!!!
Lawful good does NOT mean lawful stupid. No god is going to require their paladin to COMMIT SUICIDE!!! In fact, it's probably forbidden in most religions.
If you know you can't possibly succeed in rescuing your ally, then you'll be much more useful to the world and your god, not to mention honoring your fallen comrade's sacrifice, by surviving to fight another day.
No, lawful good =/= lawful stupid.
However, a personal sacrifice to save a number of others is a terrific literary trope (as long as it's not overdone, of course) and can make for a spectacular, memorable PC conclusion. Certainly not a requirement, but for those who see their character as such, it would fit well.
And if that's what Lab_Rat described, then I'd be fine with it. But it's not. He specifically said that the paladin went into a room where he had zero chance of success to try and rescue a hopelessly lost comrade. That's just a meaningless suicide.
If he was just trying to cover the escape of the remaining party members, he didn't have to walk into the room, to be hopelessly surrounded and killed. He could have just covered the rear the old fashioned way, by being the last to retreat, using himself as a meat shield between the enemies and the rest of his party. Or if he wanted to hold the doorway, he could do it from the outside, where the bottleneck of the doorway serves as a tactical advantage. That's actually likely to buy more time for his allies to run away, because it'll take the bad guys longer to kill him and get through the doorway. Heck, if he closed the door from the outside and made opposed strength checks to try and keep it closed, it might take longer for the bad guys to open the door and start attacking him than it took to kill him when he stupidly walked in to be surrounded and ganked.
Even a paladin who dumped int and wis has enough combat training for full BAB, so they should know enough to make their sacrificial death actually accomplish something.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Why do you assume all DM are unfair or sadistic?!? In this case, it's been pretty much made clear, even by VO investigation that this was NOT THE CASE. And even if that is the case, there are better ways to deal with it then be a jerk. Like talk with the coordinator/VO/mike brock.
Dangit people! Stop making Napalm post stuff I agree with!
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*bangs head against desk*
NO NO NO NO NO!!!
Lawful good does NOT mean lawful stupid. No god is going to require their paladin to COMMIT SUICIDE!!! In fact, it's probably forbidden in most religions.
If you know you can't possibly succeed in rescuing your ally, then you'll be much more useful to the world and your god, not to mention honoring your fallen comrade's sacrifice, by surviving to fight another day.
No, lawful good =/= lawful stupid.
However, a personal sacrifice to save a number of others is a terrific literary trope (as long as it's not overdone, of course) and can make for a spectacular, memorable PC conclusion. Certainly not a requirement, but for those who see their character as such, it would fit well.
And if that's what Lab_Rat described, then I'd be fine with it. But it's not. He specifically said that the paladin went into a room where he had zero chance of success to try and rescue a hopelessly lost comrade. That's just a meaningless suicide.
If he was just trying to cover the escape of the remaining party members, he didn't have to walk into the room, to be hopelessly surrounded and killed. He could have just covered the rear the old fashioned way, by being the last to retreat, using himself as a meat shield between the enemies and the rest of his party. Or if he wanted to hold the doorway, he could do it from the outside, where the bottleneck of the doorway serves as a tactical advantage. That's actually likely to buy more time for his allies to run away, because it'll take the bad guys longer to kill him and get through the doorway. Heck, if he closed the door from the outside and made opposed strength checks to try and keep it closed, it might take longer for the bad guys to open the door and start attacking him than it took to kill him when he stupidly walked in to be surrounded and ganked.
Even a paladin who dumped int and wis has enough combat training for full BAB, so they should know enough to...
I wasn't going to post here on this... but having been there I would like to add a bit to what LabRat detailed above.
1) The Paladin was not sure if his friend was dead. He heard us say we needed to fall back, and stayed to see if he could recover his friend.
2) The hall outside the room (where the rest of the party was) had an ongoing damageing effect (AOE) and the party needed to get out of there NOW. Each round just added more damage to everyone in the hall.
3) The rest of the party ran back to a safe spot, spent a round to recover (Healing and casting protection from the AOO) and ran back, getting there just in time to open the door...
4) and watch the paladin fall (having stayed up thru several rounds) - just inside the doorway.
5) So we grabbed the Pally, slamed the door (again) and ran back to safety to heal him (as he was taking damage from the AOE)... and decide how to recover the rogue.
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Why do you assume all DM are unfair or sadistic?!? In this case, it's been pretty much made clear, even by VO investigation that this was NOT THE CASE. And even if that is the case, there are better ways to deal with it then be a jerk. Like talk with the coordinator/VO/mike brock.Dangit people! Stop making Napalm post stuff I agree with!
I know...me being the voice of reason...something has gone terribly wrong :P .
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I wasn't going to post here on this... but having been there I would like to add a bit to what LabRat detailed above.
1) The Paladin was not sure if his friend was dead. He heard us say we needed to fall back, and stayed to see if he could recover his friend.
2) The hall outside the room (where the rest of the party was) had an ongoing damageing effect (AOE) and the party needed to get out of there NOW. Each round just added more damage to everyone in the hall.
3) The rest of the party ran back to a safe spot, spent a round to recover (Healing and casting protection from the AOO) and ran back, getting there just in time to open the door...
4) and watch the paladin fall (having stayed up thru several rounds) - just inside the doorway.
5) So we grabbed the Pally, slamed the door (again) and ran back to safety to heal him (as he was taking damage from the AOE)... and decide how to recover the rogue.
Ok, so it wasn't the total suicide scenario like Lab_Rat initially made it sound. That's more reasonable. LR made it sound like the guy pretty much committed suicide for no reason, and other people are cheering about it, which fits into the "lawful stupid" assumption about paladins which is probably my number one pet peeve in the game.
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Ok, so it wasn't the total suicide scenario like Lab_Rat initially made it sound. That's more reasonable. LR made it sound like the guy pretty much committed suicide for no reason, and other people are cheering about it, which fits into the "lawful stupid" assumption about paladins which is probably my number one pet peeve in the game.I wasn't going to post here on this... but having been there I would like to add a bit to what LabRat detailed above.
1) The Paladin was not sure if his friend was dead. He heard us say we needed to fall back, and stayed to see if he could recover his friend.
2) The hall outside the room (where the rest of the party was) had an ongoing damageing effect (AOE) and the party needed to get out of there NOW. Each round just added more damage to everyone in the hall.
3) The rest of the party ran back to a safe spot, spent a round to recover (Healing and casting protection from the AOO) and ran back, getting there just in time to open the door...
4) and watch the paladin fall (having stayed up thru several rounds) - just inside the doorway.
5) So we grabbed the Pally, slamed the door (again) and ran back to safety to heal him (as he was taking damage from the AOE)... and decide how to recover the rogue.
nah, we ran, he covered the retriet and was going to check on the body - but never really got out of the door. I figure he shut the door to tell us it was ok to run - we sure couldn't stay there. And in the "safe area" we found we had a "group protection" spell to get around the AOE in the hall, so we charged back - we could hear him fighting just inside the door all the way up to it - and heard him all just as we got there to open it. Opened it, yanked him out and shut the door (took two PCs to do that), then the Wizard DimDoored him and the Druid to the "safe room" and wanded him to stablize him.
But when we bolted, we all figured he was KIA, and covering our escape.
All right here's the deal.
** spoiler omitted **
Now, is this just a fluke (they made all their saves...
You've been chosen to be ganked. It is a heavy burden. Welcome to Dark Souls.
Not sure how that boss knew your char had the lowest AC. It must be an all knowing boss. :D
You can turn this to your advantage though, play a real blocker, something like a dex/con fighter, and go full defence when you think the pain will be coming (for more hp, you could go barb and take heavy armour proficiency). Now that helps less against ambush and touch alchemists, but if you play it safe and defensive and you get ganked again, you will absolutely know you are being targetted.
Then, I would air my dirty laundry and publicly resign. The dm should be fair, balanced and impartial. Murdering you for giggles over and over is not fun for you and they shouldn't be doing it. So they deserve some chastisement, for justice.
Good luck.
NO NO NO NO ON NO
This thread has caused many problems to erupt with the people that I usually play with in PFS, and has caused immense embarrassment to the GM who really did nothing wrong. This thread is turning into a place to bash GMs and I never intended that. If I could take the thread down myself I would. Since I can't, I would appreciate it if the moderators would.
I don't think anybody would be sad to see it go.
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Ok, I've read every post now and it took an hour and a half to read it all.
Some advice I have to give to all PFS players who are new to the game or new to the town.
1. Last half of S3 and S4 are murder on PCs. Don't play up. (As a general rule, figure out your APL and if you can play down, do so.)
2. Unless you have a crap load of HP and AC, never be the first one into the fray.
3. Let the enemy come to you, don't go to the enemy. (People looking for trouble, usually find it.)
4. Play like its YOU. (Don't play your PC like its someone else's life, play like its your life. If you aren't suicidal, don't play your PC like he is.)
5. When you join a group and they're all lvl. 5 and you are lvl. 1 and the tier is 4-5, play like the bootlicker and not like the hero of the story. "Sometimes you carry the baby and sometimes you are the baby." (I've played with people who were much higher than me and got me tons of gp at their level. And I played like a grateful Pathfinder, fresh from the Academy of Absalom. And when I carried a group of lvl. 1s, they did too.)
6. Always put 10 feet between you and the guy checking for traps. (Walking 10 feet behind, doesn't usually kill you, walking next to him, does.)
7. Avoid fireball and lightning bolt formations if at all possible.
8. If you get hit, HARD. Get the hell away from whatever is hitting you HARD, don't ask it for seconds. This ties into #4. (If you wouldn't take a second punch from Iron Mike Tyson, then make sure your PC doesn't go looking for a second punch either.)
9. Play smart. (If you get hit by 2 claws, 2 wings and 1 bite from a dragon and are down to 1-10 hp. Don't try your 2 handed weapon stance on your turn, drop the second weapon and grab a shield and keep the dragon busy while your party heals you and neutralizes the enemy. Oh and keep one potion of CSomethingW on you, for the super hit, your cleric can only heal you so much, sometimes its ok to heal yourself while someone else is healing you, it gives you a higher chance of surviving.)
10. Discretion is the better part of valor. (Increasing your AC instead of a second attack, in a fight, doesn't make you a coward. it makes you the guy who gets to play the same PC next week.)
Good luck Pathfinders and remember. Its not the monsters who are out to get you, its the Venture Captains. - Grandmaster Torch
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This thread has caused many problems to erupt with the people that I usually play with in PFS, and has caused immense embarrassment to the GM who really did nothing wrong. This thread is turning into a place to bash GMs and I never intended that. If I could take the thread down myself I would. Since I can't, I would appreciate it if the moderators would.
IQuarent, you need to realize that none of this is your fault.
Several posters, ON BOTH SIDES, read more in your posts than what was there (some that the GM was unfair to you, others that you were complaining that the GM was unfair to you). YOU are not in any way responsible for this.
I read all your posts and they were crystal clear on your intent.