Dear Paizo,
I want to start off by saying that I love what paizo has done for the Tabletop world. I love how they picked up the sword and ran with it when Wizard's dropped it. I love everything, well almost everything, about Pathfinder. For this I thank you.
My big problem, and it is a big one, comes from Adventure Paths. Everyone who played DnD of old remembers the splatbooks on splatbooks. They remember having to shell out money for a book that added very little to their overall collection. To me this is what Adventure Paths are.
In any tabletop game I tend to ignore the default world when possible. I actually don't like playing shadowrun because the default world is near impossible to ignore. It is as much a part of the game as riggers are. For Dungeons and Dragons I don't think I ever ran a campaign in Grayhawk or Forgotten Realms or Eberron. The same can be said for Pathfinder.
When I DM a game it is so that everyone at the table can have an experience that feels increasingly personal with each session. I run it to make a story, not work through one. Sessions are rarely planned out more than 2-3 weeks in advance and it isn't uncommon for me to completely throw out an idea because the players have found a new way. I feel this is the correct way for my group to play.
I should note that I understand this isn't how everyone feels. That is fine! Tabletop games are, after all, a medium for expression! If your group likes running adventure paths that is awesome as most of the adventure paths seem to be of high quality and are full of interesting stuff. And there in lies my problem.
The adventure path books aren't for me except sometimes I feel I have to buy them. Why? Because mechanics are in there. I came up with an idea for a caravan based adventure. Half way into designing how the caravan would work a player informed me that he had an adventure path with caravan mechanics. Imagine my shock! I own almost every Pathfinder product that isn't an adventure path and it never occurred to me I would be missing out on mechanics because of it.
Now I have started, begrudgingly, buying adventure paths that contain mechanics in them. I am once again buying splat books. I ignore 85% of the book and use the other 15%. I don't like this and I am starting to resent it.
But what can be done? How can this be fixed? I honestly don't know. I don't feel like the quality of the paths themselves should be sacrificed but I also don't want to feel like I have to buy the adventure paths to get the most out of the game I love, while never using the bulk of the path. Imagine if mechanics were included in the comics. If you had to buy a comic in order to get the stat block for a cool demon or the system for ship combat. Would you be upset about it? Because, even as a fan of the comics, I would be.
A Plea From a Fan,
Austin R. M.
I don't know. I think that's why they put mechanics in their splatbooks, so that the non-splatbook guys will pay money for them.
Honestly, the adventure path tends to get to "Beta test" new rules. If the new rules are popular enough, they get revised and republished (like the Kingdom building rules, or the Haunts) in one of the hardcovers.
I too am a GM who generally writes my own stuff, but I beg, borrow and steal mercilessly from published adventures, so I don't think I've ever really had an adventure path volume o to waste.
I think the problem you're running into here is just that each book doesnt have 100% utility for you - some of them are a good fit and others less so. This is just life, as far as I can see - different people will find different value in each component of each product line. In my case, I like the adventure/worldbuilding component of the APs but not the other stuff so tweaking the product in a way that suits you will disappoint me and vice versa. Similarly, most of paizo's rulebooks have nothing in them I'll use, but I buy them for the few odd snippets I do have an interest in.
Whether the usable component justifies the expense is an individual choice. I dont see there's much that can be done unless you find a publisher who produces exactly what you want, which is going to be a tall order.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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If it wasn't for an AP, I wouldn't have played Pathfinder.
The extra rules in them haven't been all that important for games outside of the APs, with the exception of the kingdom building rules and those were just revised and reprinted. Additionally, most of those rules make it into the PRD are available to the public.
Creative Director
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The Adventure Paths are one of our most successful lines, and they're certainly the line that's allowed Paizo to actually do the Pathfinder RPG in the first place. I'm always open to suggestions and feedback on the APs, but significant changes to their content and elements is not something we'll be doing. The new mechanics we put in Adventure Paths are there when we need them to be in order to tell the specific story we want to tell, and often that means we need to make up new rules content to support the story. A lot of the content then gets picked up later for inclusion in rulebooks (but the idea that we use Adventure Paths to "beta test" these rules is kind of, in my opinion, inaccurate and unfair, since we put as much work, if not more, into these rules as we do for brand-new content in our hardcovers), but the primary reason we do this is because we want to support our adventures with rules that, at the time the adventure's being written, just don't exist.
That said, we absolutely DO put additional rules and world content into each Adventure Path so that GMs who buy the product but aren't using it to run the adventure sill have content they can use. If you're not using Golarion at all and aren't interested in using the Golarion content as idea generators at all since you prefer to do 100% your own world, it's true that there's very little compelling reason to buy an AP—as far as game play is involved. Of course, I feel that even if you're running a game not set in a specific world that maps and ideas and writing can ALWAYS serve to inspire your own game, just as much as can watching a movie or reading a novel. To the GM eager for new ideas, an AP is as important as any other form of entertainment for the purposes of building upon your imagination. I personally have learned a LOT about storytelling and adventure writing and world creation by reading fantasy & horror & science fiction novels, watching genre movies, playing video games, and the like—reading game material set in worlds you don't use is no different, really.
Before I helped build Golarion, my campaign setting of choice for games I ran was Baria, my homebrew world. I'd been building it since about 1984, creating nations and monsters and deities and spells and NPCs and storylines and adventures and more, and had run many adventures and campaigns set in it. But I didn't do all the work on my own. I was a ravenous reader of various genres, but the BIGGEST thing I used to help me build Baria was inspiration from Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, Lankhmar, Ravenloft, Planescape, Mystara, and several other D&D campaign settings. Often I'd build an entire campaign's plot out of adventures taken from Dungeon magazine and standalone adventures, supplementing them with longer adventures I wrote myself. Sometimes I'd just take a map from an adventure and fill it with completely different encounters. And in some cases I took entire cities or organizations from other settings, changed a few names, and used them for my own setting. The players never knew the difference, and doing so helped me to focus my free time to build specific parts of my homebrew or adventures that I wanted to be just right, rather than forcing me to spread my resources and time too thin.
Of course, whether or not it's worth buying a book is something each GM needs to decide for themselves. Obviously, we prefer you buy more books, since that promotes the health of Paizo overall and allows us to continue doing other products you might want in the future. It's a symbiotic relationship.
Isn't the Ultimate Campaign book supposed to have (variations of) the various rules found in the Adventure Paths?
Dear Paizo,
I want to start off by saying that I love what paizo has done for the Tabletop world. I love how they picked up the sword and ran with it when Wizard's dropped it. I love everything, well almost everything, about Pathfinder. For this I thank you.
My big problem, and it is a big one, comes from Adventure Paths. Everyone who played DnD of old remembers the splatbooks on splatbooks. They remember having to shell out money for a book that added very little to their overall collection. To me this is what Adventure Paths are.
In any tabletop game I tend to ignore the default world when possible. I actually don't like playing shadowrun because the default world is near impossible to ignore. It is as much a part of the game as riggers are. For Dungeons and Dragons I don't think I ever ran a campaign in Grayhawk or Forgotten Realms or Eberron. The same can be said for Pathfinder.
When I DM a game it is so that everyone at the table can have an experience that feels increasingly personal with each session. I run it to make a story, not work through one. Sessions are rarely planned out more than 2-3 weeks in advance and it isn't uncommon for me to completely throw out an idea because the players have found a new way. I feel this is the correct way for my group to play.
I should note that I understand this isn't how everyone feels. That is fine! Tabletop games are, after all, a medium for expression! If your group likes running adventure paths that is awesome as most of the adventure paths seem to be of high quality and are full of interesting stuff. And there in lies my problem.
The adventure path books aren't for me except sometimes I feel I have to buy them. Why? Because mechanics are in there. I came up with an idea for a caravan based adventure. Half way into designing how the caravan would work a player informed me that he had an adventure path with caravan mechanics. Imagine my shock! I own almost every Pathfinder product that isn't an adventure path and it never occurred to me I...
Just because Pathfinder has a rule for ____ in book X that does mean you have to buy book X or use Pathfinder's rules. I ignore rules whenever I feel like it.
With that aside new mechanics are often put in AP's as a sort of testing ground. If they do well they may make it into an official rule book. Every AP seems to have some sort of experiment attached to it lately.
Isn't the Ultimate Campaign book supposed to have (variations of) the various rules found in the Adventure Paths?
I wouldn't call them "variations." If anything, they may have been slightly adjusted based on the additional feedback from the people who played the APs using those rules, but they're essentially the same rules. Perhaps with more options (frex, we added some new building types to the Kingmaker kingdom rules and new army options to the mass combat rules, as the core rulebooks had more pages available for each topic).
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OP, are you familiar with The Pathfinder System Reference Document?
It has pretty much all the mechanics from all the books Paizo has put out for Pathfinder, and a lot of the 3rd Party stuff as well.
If you like the adventure paths, buy them. If you only want the mechanics, well, use the SRD.
I'm always open to suggestions and feedback on the APs, but significant changes to their content and elements is not something we'll be doing.
Thanks for the reply James! I by no means want you to change the adventure paths! I know a whole lot of people who love adventure paths and I understand they just aren't really my cup of tea. I would honestly love some sort of Rules synopsis at the end of each adventure path publication run. Another softcover that was just "Here are all the cool systems and monsters we made from <Adventure Path>" would be amazing and I would gladly sign up for that subscription.
I just got "Ultimate Campaign" in the mail and the kingdom building section is amazing and I am glad it was published in another book as I was very seriously thinking of buying the kingdom building APs just for that chapter.
I understand that you can't please everyone all the time but it's something that has just kind of bugged me. When I got my copy of Ultimate Campaign it came with an insert for the Mythic Adventures book and I quickly logged in to make sure I would be receiving said book with my subscription. Thats when I saw the advert for the AP using the Mythic Adventures rules and my first thought was "Oh man, I want those cool monsters". But I know I am not going to use most of the adventure stuff in it. Heck I have already started planning an adventure on speculation alone!
Like I said, I don't know the right answer, and the APs are great (obviously) for those that buy them. Heck everything you guys produce seems amazing. I have never liked a book more than I liked the NPC Codex until the Ultimate Campaign showed up and now I am in love it!
wraithstrike, Of course rules are malleable but there is a lot of testing and thought that goes into making a system and making it balanced and work. I can't possibly create the same quality work in a week that Paizo does. It is very frustrating to work and work on something and figure out that it already exist (and is better).
Doomed Hero, I did not and this site is amazing! Is this all because of the license? It's awesome. Now I feel like my concerns aren't warranted but I still would buy the physical rules if I didn't feel like most the book was wasted on me.
Doomed Hero, I did not and this site is amazing! Is this all because of the license?
I think the license has a lot to do with it, yes. I'm not sure of the specifics, but essentially the site leaves out everything that is protected (setting information primarily) and just provides the nuts and bolts.
The Golariopedia is the other side of the coin. It has the setting information without the mechanics.
Both are, as far as I know, fan run and non-profit. Paizo's support for these kinds of sites is why I love them so much, and are a big part of why Pathfinder is the biggest name in gaming right now.
That being said, you should still buy the books even though much of the material is available for free. No website will ever compare with having a hardcopy. Paizo is awesome and deserves your business.
The Golariopedia is the other side of the coin. It has the setting information without the mechanics.
Golariopedia, by the way, is an outdated, old site. You should go to the Pathfinder Wiki instead.
Doomed Hero, I did not and this site is amazing! Is this all because of the license?I think the license has a lot to do with it, yes. I'm not sure of the specifics, but essentially the site leaves out everything that is protected (setting information primarily) and just provides the nuts and bolts.
The Golariopedia is the other side of the coin. It has the setting information without the mechanics.
Both are, as far as I know, fan run and non-profit. Paizo's support for these kinds of sites is why I love them so much, and are a big part of why Pathfinder is the biggest name in gaming right now.
That being said, you should still buy the books even though much of the material is available for free. No website will ever compare with having a hardcopy. Paizo is awesome and deserves your business.
d20pfsrd.com operates under the Pathfinder Compatibility License, which is more restrictive than the Community Use Policy that PathfinderWiki operates under. The Compatibility License allows d20pfsrd.com to have a commercial, for-profit side with their shop, while PathfinderWiki must remain strictly non-profit (but are allowed to use certain art and aspects of Paizo IP).
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To add to what Liz posted, the Archives of Nethys has game mechanics and world content because it uses the Community Use Policy.
Isn't the Ultimate Campaign book supposed to have (variations of) the various rules found in the Adventure Paths?I wouldn't call them "variations." If anything, they may have been slightly adjusted based on the additional feedback from the people who played the APs using those rules, but they're essentially the same rules. Perhaps with more options (frex, we added some new building types to the Kingmaker kingdom rules and new army options to the mass combat rules, as the core rulebooks had more pages available for each topic).
Yes but you removed the Brothel? Oldest commodity know to man.
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Yes but you removed the Brothel? Oldest commodity know to man.Isn't the Ultimate Campaign book supposed to have (variations of) the various rules found in the Adventure Paths?I wouldn't call them "variations." If anything, they may have been slightly adjusted based on the additional feedback from the people who played the APs using those rules, but they're essentially the same rules. Perhaps with more options (frex, we added some new building types to the Kingmaker kingdom rules and new army options to the mass combat rules, as the core rulebooks had more pages available for each topic).
They didn't remove it, they 'renamed' it dancehall.
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To add to what Liz posted, the Archives of Nethys has game mechanics and world content because it uses the Community Use Policy.
Ooh, loving the new look.
Busy GMs should also check out the beautifully designed random treasure generator.
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I have bought every adventure path since the start and only managed to run Rise of the Runelords (and i have changed it a lot). So i guess that i buy adventure paths only to read it, and i jad lernt a lot of things. i don't think there is possible to list every new rule that apear inside adventure paths because many are part of the adventure themselves, this is really what adventure paths really are, good ideas that you can play all together or in parts.
I already used the rules for fighting inside a tumbling tower of second darkness, the victory conditions over a plague and harrow deck plot variation of Curse of Crimson Throne, the one year later rule from legacy of fire, the opera scene from Council of Thieves etc...
So many fun moments and they would not make any sense if i ready about then without context of a adventure frame in a rule textbook. Adventure paths to me arent just adventures, he are practical exemples of how creative someone can be with the rules and situations you can put in a adventure.
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They didn't remove it, they 'renamed' it dancehall.Yes but you removed the Brothel? Oldest commodity know to man.Isn't the Ultimate Campaign book supposed to have (variations of) the various rules found in the Adventure Paths?I wouldn't call them "variations." If anything, they may have been slightly adjusted based on the additional feedback from the people who played the APs using those rules, but they're essentially the same rules. Perhaps with more options (frex, we added some new building types to the Kingmaker kingdom rules and new army options to the mass combat rules, as the core rulebooks had more pages available for each topic).
Come and dance the horizontal tango!
The Adventure Paths are one of our most successful lines, and they're certainly the line that's allowed Paizo to actually do the Pathfinder RPG in the first place. I'm always open to suggestions and feedback on the APs, but significant changes to their content and elements is not something we'll be doing. The new mechanics we put in Adventure Paths are there when we need them to be in order to tell the specific story we want to tell, and often that means we need to make up new rules content to support the story. A lot of the content then gets picked up later for inclusion in rulebooks (but the idea that we use Adventure Paths to "beta test" these rules is kind of, in my opinion, inaccurate and unfair, since we put as much work, if not more, into these rules as we do for brand-new content in our hardcovers), but the primary reason we do this is because we want to support our adventures with rules that, at the time the adventure's being written, just don't exist.
Sorry James, I had meant no offence. I suppose what I meant was exactly what you said- new rules often appear in the AP and later reappear in other sources. It means the AP looks like an early preview sometimes, though I'm sure they get the same development.
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To add to what Liz posted, the Archives of Nethys has game mechanics and world content because it uses the Community Use Policy.Ooh, loving the new look.
Busy GMs should also check out the beautifully designed random treasure generator.
Every time someone plugs my site I smile that much more. :) Always makes me happy to hear players enjoying it.
BTW, if you like random treasure generators, this was added recently to the Archives. http://archivesofnethys.com/RandomItemGenerator.aspx