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The text for the Efficient Quiver states:
It has three distinct portions, each with a nondimensional space allowing it to store far more than would normally be possible. The first and smallest one can contain up to 60 objects of the same general size and shape as an arrow. The second slightly longer compartment holds up to 18 objects of the same general size and shape as a javelin. The third and longest portion of the case contains as many as 6 objects of the same general size and shape as a bow (spears, staffs, or the like). Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can quickly produce any item she wishes that is within the quiver, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard.
Now please bear with me on why I am posting this in Pathfinder Society, instead of the Rules section, but the reason will be made clear in a moment.
My question is, are you able to put arrows in the other two compartments as well, and pull them out in the same manner as you would in the named (60) arrow compartment?
I have checked the FAQ for clarification (there is none) and have done a search on posts to see what others have said on the matter, there have been varying opinions, but in the end it says “DM’s decision”.
My problem with this, and why I have posted this here, is because this is for my PFS Ranger and I could varying rulings, from different GMs, from one session to another.
So I ask the PFS GMs, what is your consensus on this situation and how would you handle it?
I will be going to PaizoCon and then GenCon in August using my PFS Ranger, so I could very likely be at one of your tables. :)
No need to get snippy about it. It was a legitimate question as the compartments are bigger.
But thank you for your response.
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I don't see Mr Eshleman's response as snippy. Terse, maybe, but accurate.
My more burning question concerning this item is this: are wands "the same general size and shape" as an arrow? Are metamagic rods "the same general size and shape" as a javelin? Staves are already explicitly called out as fitting in the biggest compartment, sure would make this item more useful for casters if it could hold wands and rods as well as staves.
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I'd personally be generous and say that arrows would obviously be physically capable of fitting in the bigger compartments, but the size and shape restriction still means something: you wouldn't be able to draw that ammunition as a free action from those two compartments. But I'd be fine keeping a small bundle of arrows in each of those compartments, then after depleting some arrows from the main portion, spending some actions after combat to "re-load" the main compartment with arrows from the bigger parts.
But as has been said, probably best to go with the most conservative ruling so you don't get burned.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I'd actually disagree with most of the above; at my table I'd allow you to put arrows in all of the compartments. My rationale for this is that an arrow is smaller than a javelin or a staff, so there's no reason why it couldn't fit. The intent of the item is to allow the user to store more items than normal in the same amount of space. I don't see how having a few more arrows in an already-efficient quiver is really any kind of problem.
I can see Jiggy's point about not being able to draw them as efficiently, and that's certainly a valid opinion. At my table, I'd just hand-wave it and say that the quiver's magic places the arrows easily at hand, just like items stored within a Handy Haversack.
Where I would be a little more restrictive is the number of arrows that could be stored in the other compartments. I'd probably rule that the number of items allowable is the same (so, 60 arrows in the first compartment, 18 in the second, and six in the third, for 84 arrows total). I'd rule that way mostly to avoid any potential arguments over how many arrows are equivalent in size to one javelin, or the like.
I have no issues on not being able to use the compartments in the same way with arrows (in being able to pull out without an action in combat). I was just curious if there was going to a ruling more favorable than the other, or if this is something that was already discussed and established in PFS, althought it appears this was not the case on the varying opinions.
What I may do, when (if) it becomes necessary, is take Will's recommendation in purchasing two. Although the next question would be is are there any penalties in carrying two quivers?
To Lazar, I can understand you reasoning in not allowing the other two compartments to be useable with arrows like the compartment designed for it, but you would not allow a character to move (bundled) arrows from the other compartments to the main arrow compartment as a move action? They would need to take off the quiver and dump it out?
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If your combats take more than 10 of your full attacks (6 being the most arrows a PFS archer can shoot in a full attack, with Rapid Shot, Many Shot, and Haste) you are either doing archery wrong or shouldn't have been in the fight in the first place. Just top off your Efficient Quiver between fights, either from your supply stashed in you Handy Haversack, or toted by your friendly neighborhood meat shield. Why bother tring to cram arrows into other slots?
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What I may do, when (if) it becomes necessary, is take Will's recommendation in purchasing two. Although the next question would be is are there any penalties in carrying two quivers?
My bard has three ;)
If they are only letting you use the 60 spaces in the quiver for arrows because it's RAW, the there is no RAW reason why multiple quivers would have some sort of penalty.
That is correct because of the greater interior length of those compartments. And I'm generally not in favor of increasing an item's power beyond what is stated in the books, and treating it the way you'd prefer would represent what I believe is an unintended power boost of the item. The efficient quiver is a damm nice item as it is, and technically speaking even what I do allow in the scope of this question is a significant boost to it's utility.
It's not even what I 'prefer', as I said I would have no issues on a ruling in not being able to use the side compartments to pluck from and fire arrows.
I was just asking from clarification from yourself on actually dumping out the items in the quiver, as when talking with others, or on the forums, most have not had issues moving the arrows over in in combat as a move action.
But that is by your right as DM in your decision. :)
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(6 being the most arrows a PFS archer can shoot in a full attack, with Rapid Shot, Many Shot, and Haste)Assuming L11, a hasted Zen Archer spending a Ki Point during a Flurry gets 7 attacks (+9(haste)/+9(ki)/+9/+9/+4/+4/–1).
Argh, zen archers. OK, 8 1/2 full attacks is still more than enough for just about any encounter.
Ex(Spell combat) vs Su(ki) maybe?
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Argh, zen archers. OK, 8 1/2 full attacks is still more than enough for just about any encounter.(6 being the most arrows a PFS archer can shoot in a full attack, with Rapid Shot, Many Shot, and Haste)Assuming L11, a hasted Zen Archer spending a Ki Point during a Flurry gets 7 attacks (+9(haste)/+9(ki)/+9/+9/+4/+4/–1).
I know of at least one PFS scenario that starts with ten full rounds of combat. Restocking monsters sucks.
Add-in that that scenario gives very little time between encounters, and even restocking from carried resources may not work...
My archer started that game with 47 normal arrows, and was out of them before the scenario ended. And he was not 11th level yet at that point in time.
Mend the arrows you use, or at least some of them (10 minutes per arrow is steep, but that cleric outta do something when it's his turn to be on watch tonight). Fletch new arrows from your used arrowheads. Or carry 10 normal quivers on your mule and restock when convenient. Use durable arrows so they never break and recover them after the fights. Get a wand of Reloading Hands and get one arrow every round for free.
In other words, don't depend on a PFS DM you haven't met until you get to his table to rule in favor of an ability that the Efficient Quiver is not explicitly described to have. Some will, some won't, some may allow partial versions of it, but it's best for you to be prepared to handle it another way, just in case.
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Mend the arrows you use, or at least some of them (10 minutes per arrow is steep, but that cleric outta do something when it's his turn to be on watch tonight). Fletch new arrows from your used arrowheads. Or carry 10 normal quivers on your mule and restock when convenient. Use durable arrows so they never break and recover them after the fights. Get a wand of Reloading Hands and get one arrow every round for free.
In other words, don't depend on a PFS DM you haven't met until you get to his table to rule in favor of an ability that the Efficient Quiver is not explicitly described to have. Some will, some won't, some may allow partial versions of it, but it's best for you to be prepared to handle it another way, just in case.
FYI.. Durable Arrows aren't legal. God I wish a few more of the arrows in Elves of Golorian were legal..but they aren't.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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I appologize that my previous post was a bit grumpy. To be more on the point though - if a GM rules that arrows (a smaller item) fits into the larger compartments and the quiver still functions properly for those items, then other forms of ammunition (smaller than arrows) must also work in the quiver properly.
Thus, paizo will never rule that arrows will work in the javalin pocket, because they don't want gunslingers to have nice things.
Mend the arrows you use, or at least some of them (10 minutes per arrow is steep, but that cleric outta do something when it's his turn to be on watch tonight). Fletch new arrows from your used arrowheads. Or carry 10 normal quivers on your mule and restock when convenient. Use durable arrows so they never break and recover them after the fights. Get a wand of Reloading Hands and get one arrow every round for free.
In other words, don't depend on a PFS DM you haven't met until you get to his table to rule in favor of an ability that the Efficient Quiver is not explicitly described to have. Some will, some won't, some may allow partial versions of it, but it's best for you to be prepared to handle it another way, just in case.
Not sure what you mean exactly by ‘mule’. I wouldn't ask anyone else to carry anything for me, or do I have any animals doing so. I have a pretty decent strength already (16), it's just I am going a bit over on my light load right now with quivers being 3 lbs a piece.
I’m planning on eventually getting myself a Handy Haversack, which then I can carry at least a couple extra quivers, among other things. Also, are Masterwork Backpacks legal? As they are in the Ultimate Equipment guide, I assumed they were.
You bring up a good point in asking the Cleric to mend any broken arrows I find after combat. I don't expect him/her to do so, but I can at least ask.
Can you fletch new arrows? I thought that would be part of crafting, which I believe is not allowed in PFS.
But I agree, I shouldn't depend on each PFS GM, I just made the OP to see what the running consensus what PFS GMs ruled on the Efficient Quiver, at least the GMs who post here.
As I said before, I most likely will just end up getting two Efficient Quivers.
Thanks for the post!
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Bah... Gunslingers have it good already (says someone with a 6th level Gunslinger). I picked up the Adventurer's Sash from Seeker of Secrets... has 6 small pouches, one large pouch, as well as numerous straps to attach small things. This seemed, for 20gp a dandy way to keep my ammunition sorted! Cold Iron bullets and regular Paper Cartridges go in the main pouch, while silver and adamantine bullets, silver, cold iron, and adamantine paper cartriges all go in the smaller pockets.
Not that any GM ever questioned how I was keeping things sorted... it was me that questioned it. However, were a magic item that could store the ammunition in a similar way, and allow retrieval of a specific round as a free action, I would buy it anyways. Perhaps something along the lines of the Beneficial Bandoleer w/o the teleporting of a round?
@Hobbun I can't see any reason you couldn't have two quivers. This, especially since so many adventurers already carry around a golf bag full of weapons. The quivers, if positioned properly, shouldn't be too bad. You could probably even have on at your hip.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Since it only works on arrows, and not crossbow bolts, sling ammo, or firearm bullets, it's a broken item that needs to be fixed anyways.Crossbow bolts aren't the same general size and shape as an arrow?
Nope. An arrow is about 30" long. A crossbow bolt is only 10" to 20", depending on the size of the crossbow.
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Nope. An arrow is about 30" long. A crossbow bolt is only 10" to 20", depending on the size of the crossbow.Since it only works on arrows, and not crossbow bolts, sling ammo, or firearm bullets, it's a broken item that needs to be fixed anyways.Crossbow bolts aren't the same general size and shape as an arrow?
This is patently ridiculous to the point of absurdity.
What item besides an arrow is more like an arrow than an crossbow bolt? They included the line "same general size and shape" for a reason, not for it to be a null set.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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When people write things like:
This is patently ridiculous to the point of absurdity.
... about a matter in question, I read that as "Here's my position. I hope I can bull-doze people into agreeing with me."
For the record, I'm on the fence on this. In the real world, there's no way to confuse an arrow and a crossbow bolt. Thistledown's right: an arrow has to be the length of your entire arm, plus shoulder width, plus a few more inches. Bolts are about the size of a long pencil.
In the game system, I would rather keep the efficient quiver simple. I don't want there to be different pockets for arrows, bolts, bolts for Small characters, etc. I think the game works better if we allow them all to work in the same item.
I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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The thing to keep in mind is this:
It explicitly allows something. It doesn't tell you exactly what that something is, or how many somethings qualify, but it has to be something.
So if you want to say "It can hold [non-arrow item X] but not [non-arrow item Y]," fine. That's your call as GM.
But if you want to say "It can only hold arrows," then you're wrong.
It explicitly holds at least one other type of item besides arrows.
The fact that it phrases it as a category instead of just saying "It can also hold this one other specific item" means it pretty obviously holds at least two other types of items besides arrows.
So if a GM wants to tell me I can't put such-and-such in the arrow compartment, that's completely fine.
As long as he can list two non-arrow items that I can put there.
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Yeah my archer carries 3 efficient quivers for this, because I've had several GMs say "no" to the other slots.
He has regular, blunt, cold iron, adamantine, silver, ghost salt regular, ghost salt blunt, ghost salt cold iron, ghost salt adamantine, and ghost salt silver arrows all ready to fire from his holy bow, and carries oils of align weapon (chaos) and (law). Thinking about buying one for (evil) too, juuuust in case. He's also a bard so that he can identify what to use.
You know, those ghost salt adamantine arrows with holy: For those times where you fight demon ghosts with stoneskin!
Yes, and this is what I should have been more clear on earlier. It isn’t that I want the option to shoot 60 arrows in combat, but I want to be able to carry several material types to have available.
Right now I have Cold Iron, Silver (blunt) and normal arrows, with the option of using Ghost Salt as well. But I will probably be adding adamantine, as well, in the near future.
Speaking of weapon blanches, what do GMs allow (or enforce) here on the use of them? Meaning, as long as the chronicle sheets indicate you have purchased them, do you allow the characters to go into the scenario with their weapons already blanched? Or do you prefer to have the character do so during the scenario?
Reason I am asking as it takes one hour per weapon blanch and for only 10 arrows, it can take quite a few hours to blanch your needed arrows, depending on how many you want blanched. So you may not have the opportunity to blanch the weapons before combat.
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Notate on your chronicle sheet when you blanch your weapon/ammo, and Mark has ruled it will carry over between scenarios. HERE
The only thing you need to do is make sure you keep good records of ammo expended.
Great, I hadn’t even thought about the blanches possibly not carrying over. Thanks!
But just to clarify with this portion:
In general, however,poisons and weapon blanches should be applied to weapons at the start of scenarios rather than the end to lessen the chance of you needing to keep track of whether they're still in effect at the start of the next session.
I’m assuming Mark means ‘start’ as it’s ok to apply the blanch before the scenario begins? And you don’t need to wait until the scenario actually starts?
It may seem semantics to some, but there can be a big difference in applying before or after the start of the scenario.
Silver (blunt)Also, these have to be made with weapon blanch. The tips of blunt arrows are wood and not metal, so you can't buy silver blunt arrows naturally.
Ah shoot, I was hoping to apply a weapon blanch on top of that.
Ok, thanks.
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It's the reality of any organized play campaign. Anything equipment that says "or similar" on it, you're just going to have to assume worst case or otherwise deal with table variation. There's no way around it barring official clarification.
I think even in an organized play setting you can try to push for SOME common sense.
I like that idea. Maybe I should get myself some Enlarge Person potions.