Forgive me if this is a silly question, but why can't the group Cleric handle healing the Eidolon?
Last I checked the only caveat was that it didn't heal naturally (i.e. with Heal checks, sleeping overnight, and so on). Channeling, Cure X Wounds, and so on should work just fine.
@Ashiel
Your Summoner has no summon monster or spells to heal the eidolon. No dimensional anchor means few outsiders you can bind. No summon monster spells means no field flooding.
Eidolon: Chain Kama are light weapons. You over estimate the damage. All but one of those attacks are off-hand attacks making them 1d8 + 5 do to how multi-weapon fighting works. Congrats any amount of DR and you will have to role high to break into double digit damage. You can't two-hand swing more than one kama at a time since two handed swings are not secondary attacks (which is all multiweapon fighting gives) No power attack or pounce. To be OP the summoner has to be more than half as powerful as a barbar sorcerer combo. This eidolon would be lucky to do a quarter of a barbars damage. Your eidolon is useless since you to fell into the trap of giving them a whole bunch of weapons to fight with. Flurry of love taps.
Basically you made a nerfed sorcerer who's SLA is better than the eidolon. This is OP because?
Doesn't need healing, It can be rezzed 3 times per day. Duh. Summoner doesn't need SM spells, it gets SM as a spell like ability. Duh. Chain Kama are two handed weapons. Huh, looks like you got nothing.
Wow read. SLA can't be used with eidolon. SM spells can be used with the eidolon or the SLA. EDIT: A summoner without SM spells is a worse summoner than a sorcerer or druid or wizard or cleric. Having only 1 SM out is bad if summoning is your thing.
Chain kamas are treated as kamas. You can swing them two-handed, but multi-weapon fighting does not give extra two-handed attacks. Only off-hand attacks.
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I'm not the eidolon/summoner expert, but I can field some of these.
Rather than kill him, couldn't you just dismiss the eidolon before casting Purified Calling?
It looks like this works? I suppose I'm used to seeing Summoners have rejuvenate on-hand, and now I can't place why it was so critical?
If it comes to that, then why not?
I find something appalling about a summoner actually killing his own eidolon just to bring him back. At least how I GM, this would have some alignment impact and would not be without some interesting roleplay with the eidolon. Like it refusing to get into dangerous situations next time because of what was done to it.
Unless a supplement has changed things, eidolons can't be healed normally, so wouldn't get the warm fuzzy benefits of that cleric with selective channeling spamming it throughout an epic battle.
See I just thought having healing spells for your main class feature was a good idea. Can you cite the rule that says that the eidolon can't be healed with cleric spells and class features?
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I'm not the eidolon/summoner expert, but I can field some of these.
Rather than kill him, couldn't you just dismiss the eidolon before casting Purified Calling?You could. As long as you don't mind not seeing the eidolon until tomorrow.
(A dismissed eidolon can't be summoned again for a day)
If it comes to that, then why not?I find something appalling about a summoner actually killing his own eidolon just to bring him back. At least how I GM, this would have some alignment impact and would not be without some interesting roleplay with the eidolon. Like it refusing to get into dangerous situations next time because of what was done to it.
Although usually they can just be healed up by whoever does that normally. The healing non-issue is really just a straw-man. Barbarians don't have any means of healing either, but no one criticizes a lack of healing capability in a Barb build.Unless a supplement has changed things, eidolons can't be healed normally, so wouldn't get the warm fuzzy benefits of that cleric with selective channeling spamming it throughout an epic battle.
The Summoner is the poster boy for callous use creatures as tools. Appalling? yeah probably. Whats the issue?
And no, they don't heal normally. Magic healing is not healing normally.
Unless a supplement has changed things, eidolons can't be healed normally, so wouldn't get the warm fuzzy benefits of that cleric with selective channeling spamming it throughout an epic battle.See I just thought having healing spells for your main class feature was a good idea. Can you cite the rule that says that the eidolon can't be healed with cleric spells and class features?
I'm pretty sure there isn't one. the Outsider type has no such restriction, and neither the Summoner nor the Eidolon page have any such clause.
This seems to be quite a common misconception (my Summoner player thought it was true as well until I was informed otherwise), but I'm not sure where it comes from.
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Other way around actually. It can't be summoned until the next day if it dies. Not if it is dismissed.
You all read and respond too fast for this time of night... I was in the middle of checking and editing!
I've seen so few summoners, and never any at level 10+ so this is an interesting topic to me.
I see now, dismissing and summoning the eidolon back doesn't actually heal it, though. It only comes back with half health if it's killed, and that's after a day's wait (barring spells that make it otherwise).
It's the synthesist "eidolon" that is the PITA to heal - and unfortunately (fortunately?) that's the kind of summoner I've seen the most in the past year.
@Ashiel
Your Summoner has no summon monster or spells to heal the eidolon. No dimensional anchor means few outsiders you can bind. No summon monster spells means no field flooding.
You may want to check again. At low levels you use lesser rejuvenate eidolon and then swap it out as you gain levels. Once you can full-restore your eidolon there's not really much use in blowing low level spells to heal him. Especially if you have a healer in the party (they can have cure spells or infernal healing cast on them). Alternatively a wand of lesser rejuvenate eidolon is only 750 gp and heals an average of 325 hp.
Eidolon: Chain Kama are light weapons. You over estimate the damage. All but one of those attacks are off-hand attacks making them 1d8 + 5 do to how multi-weapon fighting works.
The weapon I chose is a 2 handed weapon. She, the eidolon, also has double slice which she qualifies for because multiweapon fighting replaces two-weapon fighting for creatures with 3+ arms (as noted in multiweapon fighting). So each attack is at 1d8+10 (1d8+9 with a +1 from enhancement).
Congrats any amount of DR and you will have to role high to break into double digit damage.
Of course you realize that common materials like silver and cold iron are cheap. Carrying some backup weapons is do-able, but I was trying to throw something together just to explain a few points.
You can't two-hand swing more than one kama at a time since two handed swings are not secondary attacks (which is all multiweapon fighting gives)
I'm not sure what you're talking about here. There's nothing in the rules that prevents you from two-handing and off-hand attack, other than you usually do not have enough hands to do it.
No power attack or pounce. To be OP the summoner has to be more than half as powerful as a barbar sorcerer combo.
I disagree. I don't know where you get off declaring that you must be more than half as powerful as a 2 character combination. How do you decide this? Well, even by that standard we have A) a truckload more effective HP than both a barbarian and sorcerer, B) a greater action economy than the barbarian and all but a specific sort of build of sorcerer, D) 50% of our "team" is 100% expendable and doesn't require someone to get raised or roll a new character or demand a portion of the treasures you find.
Hmm...
This eidolon would be lucky to do a quarter of a barbars damage.
Damage doesn't equate to overpowered. It never has. I ran a game for a shock trooper leap-attacking mounted raging frenzied berserker barbarian fighter with feats to share rage and frenzy abilities with her psionic horse who was permanently affected by animal growth so it could support her in her permanent enlarged state as she smashed everything with her lance while charging over the air with horseshoes of the zypher. She was capable of 1-shotting almost anything in the Monster Manual. She was the weakest member in the party, behind even the Shugenja healer.
Your eidolon is useless since you to fell into the trap of giving them a whole bunch of weapons to fight with. Flurry of love taps.
Basically you made a nerfed sorcerer who's SLA is better than the eidolon. This is OP because?
We'll just have to agree to disagree then. Weapons are the easiest method to bypass damage reductions in the game. The vast majority of enemies in the game have DRs that can be overcome with either magic weapons or one of two cheap materials. This is precisely why I chose to use weapons instead of natural attacks (because natural attacks don't allow you to swap weapons to overcome DR unless you can get an incredibly expensive AoMF).
It also scales really, really well with any sort of buffs or static increases. Inspire Courage pays beautiful dividends with the weapon method and the weapon method completely ignores the limit on natural attacks (upper limit without being a half elf is 28 hands, all attacking at full strength modifier at top BAB-2, but you probably want to spend some stuff on other things).
I thank Paizo weekly for finally making a true "gish" class (Magus). WotC never made anything like it, and it is very close to the kind of class I longed to play for years.
I love the Magus, but D&D 3.5 had the Duskblade. It also had plenty of other gishy options, specially as prestige classes - Jade Phoenix Mage, Swift Blade, Havok Mage, Doomguard, Dragonslayer, Suel Arcanamach, the list goes on and on.
Magus does it better, though. I specially like how it acually has touch spells in its list (as a Duskblade, your turn would be "I channel Vampiric Touch again" most of the time).
Wow read. SLA can't be used with eidolon. SM spells can be used with the eidolon or the SLA. EDIT: A summoner without SM spells is a worse summoner than a sorcerer or druid or wizard or cleric. Having only 1 SM out is bad if summoning is your thing.
Summoners aren't really summoners. They're eidoloners with benefits. The master summoner more closely fills the "omg mashpersummons!" thing but it's even more powerful than the standard summoner because of the spammy nature of the class. The eidolon in such cases is really just a skill slave (it might be at 1/2 your level in effectiveness but "skilled" is only 1 point and outsiders have a lot of class skills).
In the case of the master summoner you can pretty much take "Extra Summons" as often as possible and never look back.
PS. It's really funny hearing you whine about the eidolon not having pounce (since I chose to have an epic reach over pounce because I'd rather it be more of a presence on the field but that's personal preference) when you tried to talk about how awesome fighters were because of words of power making them not need pounce.
Summon to your hearts content, although you could make neat and very dangerous summoners in 3.5. Truly a trouble, if you gave them a few rounds to get ready.
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Summon to your hearts content, although you could make neat and very dangerous summoners in 3.5. Truly a trouble, if you gave them a few rounds to get ready.
It helps that their summons are standard actions. It really allows them to quickly tip the tables to be unfair. The fact they can often solo encounters on their own without being at real risk is a pro in their favor, but they're expected to have a party with them as well which means all they really have to do is tip the scales until your team will win.
Summoners are brutal in conjunction with most anyone. Summoner running interference makes for brutal tanks (they can clog a battlemap really well with stuff that often has high AC, DR, resistances, SR, or all of the above while being 100% expendable).
Since their summons are standard actions you can also throw them down right now and begin using them to control the field. Most enemies aren't going to try something stupid like an overrun attempt on your summons or eidolon (even if they succeeded they're probably wasting turns), and if they fail they get punished hard. Heck, they provide cover so you can interject swarms of weeny enemies to act as moving AoO stoppers.
The funny thing is I don't hate the summoner (I dislike their spell list, I have no real hatred towards them or their eidolons). I don't ban them from my games. In fact, I wouldn't even be talking about this if Marthkus hadn't been so insistent that I do so (all I said is my reservations about them had nothing to do with how powerful they are but more about how ugly their mechanics are).
Yep! That summoning speed.
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In fact, I wouldn't even be talking about this if Marthkus hadn't been so insistent that I do so (all I said is my reservations about them had nothing to do with how powerful they are but more about how ugly their mechanics are).
Thing is, I don't think what anyone says is going to make a dint in his/her opinion.
You may want to check again. At low levels you use lesser rejuvenate eidolon and then swap it out as you gain levels. Once you can full-restore your eidolon there's not really much use in blowing low level spells to heal him. Especially if you have a healer in the party (they can have cure spells or infernal healing cast on them). Alternatively a wand of lesser rejuvenate eidolon is only 750 gp and heals an average of 325 hp.@Ashiel
Your Summoner has no summon monster or spells to heal the eidolon. No dimensional anchor means few outsiders you can bind. No summon monster spells means no field flooding.
OK so your using wands to heal.
Multi material chain kama's mean you are buying sets of 6 +1 weapons (each end is enhanced separately) or you don't have magical back ups.
Ok double slice works, but you still can't have 3 two-handed attacks. Multi weapon fighting doesn't give those attacks and you don't have normally.
Still 10 DR or so /(alignment) will hurt you, but that's rare enough to stop mattering. I still don't see how this is better/more powerful/versatile than a druid. The druid can heal, summon, cast animal growth, and have more buff spells than the summoner. Not to mention the druid is wildshaping for extra fun. The druid is still a better caster than the summoner while the animal companion is worse the eidolon. I think your summoner has more skill points. That's something.
You're right the barbar sorc combo comparison is a little hard to quantify.
I've never said summoners weren't powerful, but I'm still having trouble seeing how they are more OP than any full-caster. We're comparing to the druid because they too rock from lvl 1 on.
Side note: I would rather talk about how master summoner is not OP. It's the only summoner I could see myself playing.
Alignment DR isn't going to be a major problem for any summoner unless it is /lawful or /chaotic. They can always swap the eidolon for a SLA summon, and most of those have either the fiendish or the celestial template.
How will those tempaltes help? Summoning outsiders who's attacks are aligned at higher level maybe, but the celestial/fiendish templates don't change the alignment of the attack and the smite doesn't bypass DR or change it either.
Alignment DR isn't going to be a major problem for any summoner unless it is /lawful or /chaotic. They can always swap the eidolon for a SLA summon, and most of those have either the fiendish or the celestial template.
Having a few big attacks reduces the effectiveness of DR. -10 on 6 attacks will hurt. But that is rare enough that I said it was not much of an issue.
Now having sets of cold-iron, silver, or adamantine chain kamas can get very pricey and heavy.
OK so your using wands to heal.You may want to check again. At low levels you use lesser rejuvenate eidolon and then swap it out as you gain levels. Once you can full-restore your eidolon there's not really much use in blowing low level spells to heal him. Especially if you have a healer in the party (they can have cure spells or infernal healing cast on them). Alternatively a wand of lesser rejuvenate eidolon is only 750 gp and heals an average of 325 hp.@Ashiel
Your Summoner has no summon monster or spells to heal the eidolon. No dimensional anchor means few outsiders you can bind. No summon monster spells means no field flooding.
No, you CAN use wands to heal. Especially at high levels. Summoners can easily choose a healing spell or two for their eidolon and then trash it as they gain levels. For example I could have lesser rejuvinate eidolon instead of shield because I decide that shield's duration isn't all that great at low levels or something, then at 5th level throw lesser rejuvinate into the garbage heap and replace it with shield. That's merely one example, but it's a fair example that shows that I don't have to be stuck with a spell that I don't need anymore.
Multi material chain kama's mean you are buying sets of 6 +1 weapons (each end is enhanced separately) or you don't have magical back ups.
Actually since I'm a spellcaster with a CL equal to my HD I just took some item creation feats (which are traditionally a good choice for partial casters, especially those with a pet). My eidolon doesn't begin with tons of arms but doesn't need to (at low levels I can make do with either weapon oils or I can give them claw attacks and replace the claw attacks with more limbs at a later level).
Craft Magic Arms & Armor preforms double duty for me since it means I get to make my own magical gear and my eidolons (see, both my eidolon and I can use shields and weapons, and there are many sorts of nice effects to apply as well (a +1 buckler of fortification is a nice investment for anybody).
Since magic DR is pretty "meh" in Pathfinder (any little enhancement bonus will do) it's really about materials. Cold iron or silver are pretty cheap and work very well at low levels.
Ok double slice works, but you still can't have 3 two-handed attacks. Multi weapon fighting doesn't give those attacks and you don't have normally.
What attacks do you not have normally? You're making off-hand attacks, but you're two-handing them (because you have two hands to grasp it with). The multiweapon fighting feat is granting its benefit and has no restriction that says the off-hand attack cannot be wielded in two hands. Try again.
I still don't see how this is better/more powerful/versatile than a druid. The druid can heal, summon, cast animal growth, and have more buff spells than the summoner. Not to mention the druid is wildshaping for extra fun. The druid is still a better caster than the summoner while the animal companion is worse the eidolon. I think your summoner has more skill points. That's something.
The animal companion is a greater draw on resources than the eidolon because it's much weaker by default, traditionally has no hands nor the ability to speak. For a druid to try and ensure that the animal companion is going to be a strong combat presence it must make up the difference in gear. Then the animal companion is limited in what sort of feats and skills it can gain without burning one of its ability score increases.
The summoner tends to get better spells and buffs. I'll take heroism over water breathing in all but some really bizarre situations. Improved invisibility that can be enhanced by a lesser rod is better than most of the druid's 6th level spells against a truly staggering number of foes. Animal growth does what it can to catch the pet up with the eidolon (the eidolon's 4 point size increase from medium to large grants all the same benefits, but the eidolon can still be affected by enlarge/reduce person when cast by the summoner which allows for situational tactical advantages and expanded reach when space permits).
Druids that intend to use wildshape to fight are going to need some amulets of mighty fists for both themselves and their companions, which is more expensive even to craft them than it is to get weapons with a few different material types (to bypass material DR you'd need 45,000 for yourself and your AC - who will have less attacks - or at least 45,000 gp if you're going t craft it yourself, and then you still fun into the problem of aligned reductions unless you wanna fork over 80,000-160,000 gp for a +4 amulet, though in general you and your animal will only have around 3 natural attacks each barring rake).
Summon monster spells are better than summon nature's ally spells in Pathfinder. Perhaps in an effort to nerf druids, most of the utility summons were removed from the SNA lists leaving you primarily with animals who lack the templates and few options for creatures with cool and useful powers. Things like fey and unicorns are incredibly sparse so it's pretty much brute or nothing throughout the lists.
Summoners draw their creatures from the summon monster list which includes the same sorts of brutes except they have a useful template associated with them. In addition to smites (which can be very cute, especially for a Neutral summoner who can summon both celestial and fiendish creatures depending on his foe) they get darkvision (in addition to their existing low-light vision), energy resistance 5-15 across multiple energy types, and by even middling levels have DR 5/alignment and DR 10/alignment for anything with lots of HD (which you begin seeing at SM6).
In addition the summon monster list has creatures that have more interesting abilities. For example if you need more battlefield control you can just cast summon up some dretches to spam stinking cloud for you to make areas unattractive for enemies to take refuge or stop their movement inside. Most of the summonable outsiders have fascinating SLAs or even prepared spells and sometimes useful auras and class features.
The fact their spells are so abuse-able with metamagic rods doesn't help matters. For example, being able to cast maximized summon monster VIII with a medium metamagic rod is just nasty, or maximized spell turning, or if you want to do more save or suck casting persistent dominate monster is pretty awesome even with the DC that's 3 points lower.
I've never said summoners weren't powerful, but I'm still having trouble seeing how they are more OP than any full-caster. We're comparing to the druid because they too rock from lvl 1 on.
You yourself defined the summoner as a full caster. Except now they're a full caster who doesn't need to worry about their physical ability scores (unlike a druid who wants to have a martial presence the summoner's eidolon has enough presence for both a wildshaping druid and the animal companion combined) and get discounts on scrolls, wands, and metamagic rods due to spell-level shenanigans, and gets some of the most powerful spells that arcane casters get (if not THE most powerful spells), and they do it while being in the body of a cleric (they can cast in armor, have a d8 HD, simple weapon proficiency...) and a skill presence that rivals most skillmonkies (they get their skill and class skills, their eidolon's skills and class skills, and they can dump the odd point into Skilled to get massive check results quickly (a 2nd level wand of lesser evolution surge is only 6,000 gp fully charged and can allow you to give your eidolon +8 to any skill on demand).
In essence they do everything really, really, really well. And unlike most hybrid classes they can do it all at the same time. They have a steady - seemingly endless - supply of meat shields (meat shields that are actually dangerous I might add), a broad and varied spell list, several of the most powerful spells from the arcane spell list, and unlike most hybrids (with the druid being the most exceptional) they not only begin the game at 1st level with phenomenal power but they have a brutal end game to look forward to (with the likes of greater planar binding, simulacrum, and maximized summon monster VIII).
While specific classes can overcome them in their own specific niches: barbarians > eidolon, wizard > spells, uhhh...maybe Bard > skills (not sure about this one actually), those classes are superior in niche respects only. It is, in my opinion, the most powerful hybrid class in the game because it is more powerful than all the other hybrid classes in the game (most of which were already quite powerful :o).
Side note: I would rather talk about how master summoner is not OP. It's the only summoner I could see myself playing.
I prefer to discuss mechanics. Not whether or not something is or is not OP because I want to play one or not. In 3.x, Wizard 17 could replicate every act of god in the Judeo-Christian bible using just the SRD (which included Core + Manual of the Planes) including the creation of an ever expanding universe and all life within it from the dust of the new universe to parting an ocean to raising the dead or calling upon the aid of every solar in existence in the span of a moment.
Wizard was also a fun class to play. But I admitted where it had its balance issues. Whether or not I want to play a class has no effect on my conversing over its power and has never and I hope will never cause me to turn a blind eye towards the mechanics.
And again I never said I banned summoners from my game. Just like I never banned clerics, druids, or wizards in my 3.5 games. But that doesn't mean I don't think they were often grossly overpowered.
Alignment DR isn't going to be a major problem for any summoner unless it is /lawful or /chaotic. They can always swap the eidolon for a SLA summon, and most of those have either the fiendish or the celestial template.Having a few big attacks reduces the effectiveness of DR. -10 on 6 attacks will hurt. But that is rare enough that I said it was not much of an issue.
Now having sets of cold-iron, silver, or adamantine chain kamas can get very pricey and heavy.
Given that the eidolon begins with a 16 strength and can rise much, much higher, and doesn't have to wear armor to have an awesome AC...I'm sure he'll manage...
3 large-sized cold-iron double chain kamas = 96 gp.
3 large-sized silver double chain kamas = 318 gp (paying for each "head").
Total cost to be able to penetrate the majority of DRs in the game?
Less than a 3rd level potion.
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Yes, but that was a reflection of the world Moorcock built. They were superior. He didn't need game balance and the game was just... accurate.
Summoners are powerful...and not well balanced...possibly not well thought out...but when you say 'broken'...Play Stormbringer. Play with whatever random race you get. Have a good group, all random...then introduce ONE Myrrin...Pan Tangian...or (ack) Melnibonean sorcerer of a decent rank...then get back with me.
...just saying...balance isn't as important as people make it out to be. YMMV.
@Ashiel
Your summoner is bad at summoning. When you have your eidolon out the summoner can't summon. The druid is still pumping out SNAs. If you don't have your eidolon out the druid can still use 2 SNAs and has an animal companion out. 1 SM is not more powerful than 1 SNA and 1 animal companion. The druid has more utility by being able to prepare more spells that can turn into summons. It doesn't matter that SM is more useful than SNA. Your summoner doesn't have many utility spells. All his utility comes from his SLA which can't be out with an Eidolon.
Summoner you made can't do half the things you are talking about. Your summoner doesn't have heal spells for the eidolon. Are you beginning to realize that no actual summoner is nearly as versatile as you make them out to be.
The druid is still more well rounded, versatile, and powerful than any summoner that you spend time picking spells known and buying gear for. For example your summoner can't afford those meta-magic rods you are talking about. You are spending most of your money making chains for the eidolon and other basic gear you need. Even with an abundance of money the druid doesn't share item slot with his companion. Which the animal companion can make do with hour/lvl buffs from the druid anyways and still be useful in combat (not as use full as an eidolon, but the druid can summon and do more than just buffing). Your summoner can't really summon and still be useful. Without his eidolon out he is little more than a decent buffing that used 1 summoning spell.
I would say a druid fills a similar niche as the summoner. The summoner has more power on the eidolon side while the druid has more power on the caster side. Overall though the druid is better. Actually just from the fact that we can argue over which is better shows that the summoner is not OP. And we are arguing over whether or not the summoner is OP. If you aren't, I have no idea then what you are trying to say. All I'm saying is that the summoner isn't OP. Any other complaints about the summoner are not decent reasons to ban it. If something is truly game breaking then THAT would be a problem.
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...just saying...balance isn't as important as people make it out to be. YMMV.
Quite true. Balance is a means to help ensure fun for all. But people tend to mix the means (balance) and the goal (fun). If you seek only balance and it comes at the expenses of fun, then you have truly lost your way.
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Summoner you made can't do half the things you are talking about. Your summoner doesn't have heal spells for the eidolon. Are you beginning to realize that no actual summoner is nearly as versatile as you make them out to be.
Don't expect me to give you as much of my time if you won't even read what I've written. Especially when your "oh but you didn't" comments are already covered in the original post and directly in subsequent posts and yet you're still calling on them like I've only been ignoring them.
Either play a new card, address what has been addressed, or pass.
Actually just from the fact that we can argue over which is better shows that the summoner is not OP.
This is some really smashed logic. People can argue about anything. Having a good argument is rarer though. There are people - on these boards even - who will try to argue that monks are overpowered, even though the vast majority of people would end up giving them strange looks and try to move a few feet away incase whatever they had was contagious.
Actually just from the fact that we can argue over which is better shows that the summoner is not OP.This is some really smashed logic. People can argue about anything. Having a good argument is rarer though. There are people - on these boards even - who will try to argue that monks are overpowered, even though the vast majority of people would end up giving them strange looks and try to move a few feet away incase whatever they had was contagious.
Are you saying you can't tell the difference between something being hands down better and it being a debatable difference in power and usefulness?
Are you asserting then that the Summoner is just so clearly better than the druid in most circumstances? No? Then they have similar power levels. One being slightly worse or better than the other does not make either OP or UP. It's like arguing whether or not a barbar is better than a paladin. It's debatable. Unlike trying to say that a commoner is better than a wizard. That is not much of an argument.
Summoner you made can't do half the things you are talking about. Your summoner doesn't have heal spells for the eidolon. Are you beginning to realize that no actual summoner is nearly as versatile as you make them out to be.Don't expect me to give you as much of my time if you won't even read what I've written. Especially when your "oh but you didn't" comments are already covered in the original post and directly in subsequent posts and yet you're still calling on them like I've only been ignoring them.
Either play a new card, address what has been addressed, or pass.
Except you didn't and can't make this OP summoner you're talking about. You post a build. I point out weaknesses in the build. You say you can change it around to do this and that without losing what you can already do.
You keep saying you can use summon monster when you can't. If your eidolon is not out, you can't even begin to argue that the summoner is OP. SNA is always better than no summoning, which you have. Your SLA is only useful in combat when you run into problems the eidolon can't handle. Which doesn't make you more powerful. The utility use of your SLA is overcome by the druid having good utility spells (which you don't have many of).
You are still ignoring the druid having better casting than your summoner. Your summoner (casting wise) is only good at buffing. That does not even begin to cover every role a caster is suppose to do.
...just saying...balance isn't as important as people make it out to be. YMMV.
I agree with you there. "Balanced" and "different" are hard to do, to do well anyway. Too much "balance" sometimes equals vanilla classes with different names on their powers. And fulfilling different roles when the roles aren't equally important at the same time or place is not an exercise in easy. I've always been fine with that, but then I've played D&D a long time.
As an aside, if there is one term I would love to add to the profanity filter around here, it's "broken" :)
Are you saying you can't tell the difference between something being hands down better and it being a debatable difference in power and usefulness?Actually just from the fact that we can argue over which is better shows that the summoner is not OP.This is some really smashed logic. People can argue about anything. Having a good argument is rarer though. There are people - on these boards even - who will try to argue that monks are overpowered, even though the vast majority of people would end up giving them strange looks and try to move a few feet away incase whatever they had was contagious.
Nope. I'm just pointing out that "we can argue about it" doesn't make an ant hill of difference. People can argue over anything and often will.
Except you didn't and can't make this OP summoner you're talking about. You post a build. I point out weaknesses in the build. You say you can change it around to do this and that without losing what you can already do.
Except that's not true. Even in the post where I mentioned a build I included all of the limitations you keep throwing around. You keep parroting that the standard summoner can't use their SLA while their eidolon is out. But I said that initially and I frankly don't care. A very strong expendable meat shield that can hurt stuff and when you manage to kill that then then you face summon monster after summon monster who are going to last until you kill or remove them (because of their durations). Then you also have their planar bound minions who are off the books. And then you have the fact they're still a 3/4 BAB class in armor with tricks.
You showed a great ignorance to the summoner's mechanics. You keep throwing around this "you can't heal your eidolon" and tried to suggest I couldn't heal it before. Except that I can begin with the eidolon healing spells if desired and swap them for better spells at 5th, 8th, and 11th level as they become obsolete. That's assuming I don't heal them the same way efficient parties do (via wands mostly). You pretty much entirely ignored the fact I can restore her (the eidolon) to full Hp and remove all status conditions from her up to 3 times per day (giving her eidolon tons and tons of tanking power throughout the day).
You ignored the fact druids have to wait 24 hours to reclaim their animal companion after it dies. Something that drastically reduces the expendable nature of the companion (especially because each time you have to get a new one you have to retrain the thing all over again).
You ignored the fact animal companions are offensively and defensively weaker than eidolons and you must expend significantly more money into their equipment to make them useful. The eidolon I posted has very little equipment and only one piece is shared with the summoner in terms of body slots.
You ignored the fact at high levels the summoner's spell list is more powerful than the druids. It doesn't take a lot, but in addition to the summoning spells they can supercharge they also have the entire planar binding line, simulacrum, spell turning, etc.
Furthermore...
You keep saying you can use summon monster when you can't.
Proves you aren't reading my posts and so I'm done talking with you until you come up with something new.
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...just saying...balance isn't as important as people make it out to be. YMMV.
That's because people generally make it out to be unimportant.
It's not.
@Ashiel
You really think your SLA matters if your eidolon is not out in combat? You don't understand that for a summoner if his eidolon is not out his SLA is equivalent to 1 buffed top level spell in no way replaces his main class feature the eidolon?
A summoner without his eidolon out is no where near a druid in power. Picture a sorcerer who for combat keeps one summon monster spell of creatures out at a time as a free action (lets assume he gets quicken spell for free with no level adjustment if he does this with summons and it doesn't expend slots). Then for the rest of combat this sorcerer just cast buff spells. That sorcerer still sucks and we gave it a better SLA than the summoner has.
You talk about meat shields, but 1 summon monster spell at a time is not going meat shield very well at all. A normal sorcerer is going to be able to flood the field with more summons at or 1 below the spell level of your 1 SLA. Not to mention he'll have battlefield control spells. Now compare that to a Druid, and it's no contest. My druids animal companion, spontaneous summons, wildshaping, and better full-casting completely smash your summoner's buff spells and the 1 SLA he has out at a time.
Your summons SLA means nothing outside of utility, because if that SLA is used in combat your effective power is a joke compared to any full-caster not just the druid. You can't say his SLA makes him more OP in combat.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around why you think a Sorcerer is a better Summoner.
The Summon Monster SLAs are literally just a better version of the actual spell.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around why you think a Sorcerer is a better Summoner.
The Summon Monster SLAs are literally just a better version of the actual spell.
In short: The SLA is not better than two spells. You can only have one SLA out at a time. Even 1 top level spell + 1 spell a level lower is still better than 1 SLA.
We're not talking about master summoner. We're talking about the relative combat use of a normal summoners SLA. Even a master summoner though is a one trick pony (a good trick, but none the less one trick)
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...just saying...balance isn't as important as people make it out to be. YMMV.
I agree with you there. "Balanced" and "different" are hard to do, to do well anyway. Too much "balance" sometimes equals vanilla classes with different names on their powers. And fulfilling different roles when the roles aren't equally important at the same time or place is not an exercise in easy. I've always been fine with that, but then I've played D&D a long time.
As an aside, if there is one term I would love to add to the profanity filter around here, it's "broken" :)
And that would be why I love Pathfinder, and can't stand D&D vani...er...4th edition.
Actually, I see no problem with any of the classes...I've argued for the fighter...and the rogue...and now, I'll throw in that I've seen a monk end one of the toughest fights ever (a dragon) in one round. I will agree that the summoner has some issues...mostly those that arise from those that are gaming the system. The summoner lends itself to abuse handily...but so does just about any casting class if you try hard enough...just not as easily as the summoner. If someone wants to seriously optimize...that's one thing...but most of what I see that causes these big arguments is 'let's see if we can break it'...which is good for theorycrafting...but very bad for the actual table.
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...just saying...balance isn't as important as people make it out to be. YMMV.That's because people generally make it out to be unimportant.
It's not.
It's only important when it becomes an issue at the table.
It's entirely possible to play with a HUGE disparity in power...but it does make it more of a challenge for the DM. Some are up for that, some aren't. It's usually a problem if one character greatly overshadows the others...and the others don't get their time in the spotlight...and players get unhappy with the game. The reverse can also be true...one character significantly underpowered, and the player gets frustrated...but it is entirely possible to enjoy precisely that character.
It's all a matter of the style of the game the players want to play, the style of game the DM presents...and everybody's expectations.
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...just saying...balance isn't as important as people make it out to be. YMMV.Quite true. Balance is a means to help ensure fun for all. But people tend to mix the means (balance) and the goal (fun). If you seek only balance and it comes at the expenses of fun, then you have truly lost your way.
Agreed.
In spades.
Eldon, are you suggesting we throw balance out the window?
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...just saying...balance isn't as important as people make it out to be. YMMV.That's because people generally make it out to be unimportant.
It's not.
It's only important when it becomes an issue at the table.
It's entirely possible to play with a HUGE disparity in power...but it does make it more of a challenge for the DM. Some are up for that, some aren't. It's usually a problem if one character greatly overshadows the others...and the others don't get their time in the spotlight...and players get unhappy with the game. The reverse can also be true...one character significantly underpowered, and the player gets frustrated...but it is entirely possible to enjoy precisely that character.
It's all a matter of the style of the game the players want to play, the style of game the DM presents...and everybody's expectations.
If it requires direct GM intervention to address, it's definitely an issue. At that point you may as well just homebrew your own rules from scratch since obviously the ruleset you're using is inadequate to the job.
I think he meant the style of the campaign greatly effects what is and isn't useful. Not that a DM should make up house-rules.
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Eldon, are you suggesting we throw balance out the window?
I have no clue how you would get that idea.
My point was that it's dependent on the individual game as to how important it actually is...it's not a make-it-or-break-it issue to RPG gaming itself...and fretting over it can cause more harm than good.
YMMV = your mileage may vary. Balance may be more important to any given game...or group...or GM. It's not meaningless to me...but as long as nobody is trying to break the game...and nobody builds a character that fails hard at what he wants to do (and it works in the game I'm trying to run)...then I don't have any real problem with any of the classes as written...and I'll apply a little basic logic to keep it that way. *shrug*.
In short, there's a giant issue of balance between princes and paupers...but some games can incorporate both...while others are geared toward one...or the other.
Balance is important, the brownie recipe must be followed so everyone gets to eat tasty snacks.
If not, some may gorge themselves on all the heaped chocolate, and pleasure themselves in the corner, at the expense of the fun and enjoyment at the table.
I love the alchemist, inquisitor, and oracle. Frankly the first 2 chapters of the APG are fabulous and only the ARG rivals it for my favorite book.
As for the Summoner, I think its is wonderful class. BUT in my game its never used because of we do not allow anyone to use books in the game, as it slows down the game. So when someone summons a creature, they better have the stats in front of them. Also the only other problem I see is the overall enjoyment of the group. IF a person is looking at books to determine which creature to summon, plus they have to then roll for their 7 eagles and, and and, I feel the other players are getting bored. Sure I could get them to roll for the eagles, but they did not come to play an eagle, they wanted to play their character. If I trusted a player to alleviate these two concerns, then I am happy to have them run around with the other characters.
Books are banned from an rpg game?!?!?!?
I'm pretty sure he meant he doesn't allow people to start flipping through the Bestiary to figure out what to summon in a given situation :)
(ie; each player should have relevant statblocks/spell information/etc printed out and ready for use)
It would be refreshing to play with that rule, actually, although it would certainly take some adjustment.
Put all your summons on pokemon cards, lol.
Well late to the party but let's go.
Alchemist, Well it is not bad, but I think it tries to cover all the alchemist tropes at the same time instead of allowing you to concentrate on distinct parts of it. I also don't like how Mutagen is huge thing with the class, Jekyl and Hyde should not be the standard.
Cavalier, I would never roll one up, but only actual problem I have with it is that it's very underwhelming, even at it's big stick of mounted combat it's not really anything special.
Gunslinger, the class itself is not the problem. It's the way Paizo decided to do guns, I have no problem with guns in fantasy if it fits the setting. The mechanics are just about as stupid as left foots boot. First of all even in RL with early firearms there was armor that could stop the bullets(only in the thickest parts but still), now let's take +5 Adamantium Fullplate, you really think that the bullet will go trough that unaffected. Not to mention from gamist perspective Touch AC is horredous on most things in the beastiary, and that is because there wasn't this mechanic in place when they were made, the CR system does not take this in to account. Not that the CR is good anything more than ballparking the challenge anyways, but still. But like I said it's not the class it's the guns that are the problem.
Inquisitor, I am actually quite fond of the class it fills a niche that was not covered and it has interesting mechanics. Also it seems like it would be fun to play.
Oracle, spontaneus divine caster, with some nice things added to make it stand out from the cleric. Only gripe really is that there is not enough variation of the mysteries and curses.
Summoner, it's problematic to say the least. Well one is that all pet classes share, if playing at a table multiple critters means long turns. But the reason I really hate the desing process is it's spell list and how it effects magic items, potions, wands, metamagic rods.(Give it full casting and just less slots nobody said you have to give at least 4 slots...
Agreed, dragon scales, they do nothing!