I will be approaching level 5 as a wood wizard soon and 1 of the first 3 in the title are what I'm considering taking come said 5th level.
I realize that each of the spells are very good, thus my problem. Since I can only choose one of them (for now), I've decided to come to the wonderful and experienced players and DMs of the paizo forums to ask once again for help in choosing which to take and why. Also, if you feel there is a 3rd level spell that trumps the first three, feel free to share what it is and why you think it's better.
Note: I'm primarily a control and support, but still have some blasts handy to help finish off opponents and thin minions.
What I'm currently thinking:
I'm leaning towards fireball even though I realize how amazing summon monster 3 can be. I don't have augment summon and it does take a full round action to summon (unless you have a feat which I won't be getting for quite some time). Haste can be good, but right now we only have 2 martial classes, but I'm sure haste would be helpful for me and the entire party as well. Fireball would give me something that does solid damage and can also clear out minions as well.
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Fireball only if you tend to go up against multiple enemies on a regular basis. Unless facing 3+ enemies, haste is going to outdamage your fireball easily.
Haste is hands down the best 3rd level spell there is. There's no contest. It would still be considered a great spell if it was 4th, 5th, or 6th level. Even classes that don't make attacks still get plenty of benifit from haste (+1 ac, +1 reflex, +move speed).
Haste is probably the first spell you cast just about every combat until 17th level when you cast time stop and then haste.
Summon good too, but I would take haste before that too.
I agree. Even with only two martials, haste is killer-good. Extra speed helps armored types. Extra attacks helps everybody (including summoned creatures). Extra AC and reflex, while minor, don't hurt at all.
Haste is one of the all-time greatest support spells.
Summon Monster III is good and flexible, but in no way does it rise up to the glory of Haste.
Fireball is a good spell, but unless you're fighting lots of cold-based mooks on a regular basis, it's not as good as haste. (Think of it this way. Fireball does 5d6 damage at this level, admittedly many times if you have many foes. Even with only two martials each getting an extra attack with longbows, haste at this level does an extra 10d8+(10x) damage over 5 rounds.) You need a lot of mooks to spread the fireball over to out-damage haste.
Haste is the best spell of the three. If you want to do damage without relying on your party members, i think the Aurochs will outperform Fireball easily.
Haste.
However, fireball is a great situational staff candidate.
though i do recommend the improved familiar with the wand of magic missiles. CL5th is 3750 GP. fairly good for interrupting enemy spellcasters.
That said it does depend on what classes you have in the party; if you've somehow ended up with an all-caster party then Haste isn't going to be much else. But in the far more likely event that you have at least two fellows using weapons- ranged or melee, doesn't matter- then Haste is going to be your absolute best option.
Well goodness haha, Haste it is then. I have a twf ranger, archer fighter, a sorcerer, me a wizard and another person that hopped on a while ago that is also wizard. We may have an npc melee as well.
Thanks everyone.
Ohhhhh your twf and archer are going to LOVE haste. Seriously they are going to kiss your pointed shoes and beg to dust your wizard hat.
I'm guessing you three casters will mostly enjoy the bonus movement speed.
You have two martials? Haste, no question. Then you effectively double their damage output. Not only that, you make it so everyone can position pretty much however they want to, with plenty of movement to avoid AoOs, and the general defenses of the entire party will increase as bonuses from haste stacks with everything.
It has been said before, and I say it again: Haste is the best. In our Jade Regent game, there are three arcane casters (sorcerer, bard and magus) and we ALL have Haste, because it is simply the best. That way we can cast it most every non-trivial combat.
You have two martials? Haste, no question. Then you effectively double their damage output.No he doesn't. The TWFer is going up by not more than 66% and the archer by 50%. In a level the archer will only be going up by 33% even ignoring iteratives. And that's only on full attacks anyhow. The archer almost always can full attack, but the TWFer generally can't.
It's good, but with an archer and a TWFer it's not as good as its hype and with only one front liner in a party of four summons increase in importance.
The haste attack is another with his best attack, at the best to-hit. It is more than a 33% increase, for both the archer and the dual-wielder, since it is very likely to hit, and does more damage than an off-hand attack. Perhaps it does not DOUBLE the output, but the increase is dramatic. Summoning is a time-consuming effort, and no monsters on summon monster 1-3 is going to out-damage two primary attacks from full-on martial characters.
As a DM I have to say Water Breathing. But from what you've said about your party, Haste. When you have a second selection I'd go for Fireball or Lightning Bolt.
Will save against the suggestion of suggestion..
Nope that's a fail. So my vote goes to suggestion as well.
Get Sleetstorm.:)
It's like a lower level Timestop for most encounters.
archer normally 2 attacks with rapid shot at +10/+10 or so normally will be +11/+11/+11.
versus an AC of 28 the hasted archer will deal almost double damage down to +50% more at AC 12, the TWF should be similar, the movement bonus might help boost the output by adding mobility on large battlefields and by assisting the move out off an area that interferes with your ability. Defensive bonuses might help damage output indirectly, +1 dodge and reflex saves might mean the difference between few or no hitpoints as well as avoiding a debilitating attack of some sort.
Haste is easily the best spell at 3rd level and likely one of the best spells in the game at any level of play.
Slow is good because you can dispel/counter haste spells from your opponents and is a very significant debuff even on non-hasted foes.
The haste attack is another with his best attack, at the best to-hit. It is more than a 33% increase, for both the archer and the dual-wielder, since it is very likely to hit, and does more damage than an off-hand attack. Perhaps it does not DOUBLE the output, but the increase is dramatic. Summoning is a time-consuming effort, and no monsters on summon monster 1-3 is going to out-damage two primary attacks from full-on martial characters.You have two martials? Haste, no question. Then you effectively double their damage output.No he doesn't. The TWFer is going up by not more than 66% and the archer by 50%. In a level the archer will only be going up by 33% even ignoring iteratives. And that's only on full attacks anyhow. The archer almost always can full attack, but the TWFer generally can't.
It's good, but with an archer and a TWFer it's not as good as its hype and with only one front liner in a party of four summons increase in importance.
At level 5 a TWF build will have at worst have 1d8 main hand and 1d6 off hand or 1d6 main hand and 1d4 off hand. He will have his strength mod and +4 power attack on his main hand and half his strength mod and +2 power attack on his off hand. Unless he has double slice. And favored enemy will also even things out. Doubling the main hand is +66% if it does exactly double what the off hand does. It will probably do slightly less than double without double slice or significantly less with it.
The archer will almost always full attack, but the TWFer will generally spend at least one round per combat moving and making a standard attack, which means no haste. As the only melee character he will probably have to move more than that, reducing the value of haste further. If he gets any attacks of opportunity those are also not doubled further reducing the relative value of haste.
And haste doesn't put another body on the battlemap. Summon Monster does. A single fast ranger cannot protect an archer, a wizard, and a sorcerer as effectively as a ranger and an aurochs or a ranger and an alligator or a ranger and 1d3 giant spiders or whatever it seems most appropriate to summon at the time.
I guess...? I have never been in a game where the casters need babysitting. Usually, it is the other way around; the casters protecting the melee people with spells, and then getting out of Dodge. Whenever I play/GM, the casters have enough sense to use defensive spells to make themselves the most difficult targets.
I mean, if you break it down:
Cast Haste:
Round 1:
- Everyone get into position (melee dudes into melee, casters and archers behind cover, etc) and likely can take another action. This grants you control of the flow of the battle, giving you the choice if you want to be defensive or offensive.
- The archer deals 10+ more damage this round, unless he is garbage.
- Everyone have improved defenses.
Round 2:
- TWF dude is almost guaranteed to get off a full attack. Might not have been without extra movement. His improved defenses makes his survivability higher.
- Archer does an additional 10+ more damage.
- Casters can relocate with great ease, keeping out of range from enemies.
Cast SM3:
Round 1:
- Nothing happens from the wizard. He needs the martial to babysit him so his spell does not fizzle.
Round 2:
- A single CR3 monster comes in, has to adapt to the flow of the battle, which has been handed to the enemy.
There is a reason Haste is seen as THE buff. It is better than any other spell at lv3. SM3 loses its usefulness within 2-3 levels, unless you are built around summoning and have the Augment Summoning feat.
Sorry but I cannot in any way or form agree with you. Not in any variation of the party, in any game since the current incarnation of Haste came into being, has there been a better lv3 spell.
Edit:
Artanthos: Is your magus a solo character? Or the only martially bent character in the party? There is no spell that can do more damage in your repertoire, and there never will be.
Let me tell you a story of my lv9 combat-focused bard, called "Every damn combat ever", it goes something like this:
Prior to combat: Cast Good Hope. Is nice. Lasts 10 min/lv, which I double with a lesser rod of extend. Lasts most of the dungeon.
Round 1: Cast Haste, Inspire Courage. The two other martial characters (ninja/monk and a proper martial) now deal out an average of 15 and 25 damage per hit, and with the +5 I give them to hit, they WILL hit. That means that _Haste_ effectively deals 40 damage per round. When I start swinging next round for 1d8+16, I add 20 more to that curve, so Haste deals 60 damage per round for 9 rounds. If I opt to cast other spells, which I often do, in order to remedy problems, it does roughly 50 instead.
The moral of the story: Haste does 450-540 damage. Its pretty damn good.
No he doesn't. The TWFer is going up by not more than 66% and the archer by 50%. In a level the archer will only be going up by 33% even ignoring iteratives. And that's only on full attacks anyhow. The archer almost always can full attack, but the TWFer generally can't.
It's good, but with an archer and a TWFer it's not as good as its hype and with only one front liner in a party of four summons increase in importance.
While I dsagree with the majority of his reasoning (the fact that archers can always full attack means they take advantage of haste every round, making it more useful to them, not less) I do agree that Summon III might be a better choice in this instance due to the lack of front line fighters.
EDIT: On the other hand, if one of the other casters are doing Battle Field Control, another tank becomes less important... I guess what I'm saying, is that if you have a way to keep monsters off you, take haste. If your only protection is one TWFer, take Summon Monster.
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If you want a nice Control and Dmg spell, I'll suggest Spiked Pit.
10ft x10ft hole opens up, lined with spikes, people get a reflex save to avoid, but if they fail they take fall dmg, spike dmg, and more dmg as they try to climb out. Plus, it drops em in a pit, removing them from combat. Any enemy that ends its turn next to the pit, has to make a save of fall in aswell.
Sadly, since haste no longer benefits the Magus, my magus will no longer be memorizing it.
It still works with the other magus ability.
Perhaps off topic but I am wondering, if an archer has the feat that allows 2 arrows on first attack, does that mean using haste he gets 2 arrows again? I don't think so, I think he just get his original bab not the feat again.
The additional attack you get with haste is not your first attack so you cannot apply manyshot to it.
Haste is going to get use every combat. Fireball is more situation but dont make the mistake of never learning/preparing it, when appropriate it is REALLY good. (And its range is fantastic... who in the party is going to deal 5d6 damage at 800 feet? no one but you)
Summon Monster has uses but summon monsters take a round to call. The first time a mook hits you with an arrow while you are summoning and you lose the spell you are going to wish you had fireballed the mooks so the melee can focus on the big guy.
Summoned Monsters can also be dispelled. Thats no fun.
Speaking of which Dispel Magic is a great one to get for level 3 too...
Room full of mummies? You and your martials are going to be happy you prepared Fireball =)
For me these sorts of questions are best answered by me closing my eyes and visualizing my character and asking myself "what would my character do?"
Or, as I like to abbreviate it: WWMCD?
Sorcerer has been focusing on enchantment. The other wizard has been somewhat erratic as he's brand new to the game (and chose one of the more complex classes). He has some blasts, some control, some protection, but has done alright thus far.
I think I'm going to go with haste, my school spell wind wall and my human favored bonus summon monster 2. I'll still get to summon, I get haste which at the very least my archer will love and wind wall helps us against archers and small things.
Next level I may go either dispel, fireball or summon monster 3, but I have plenty of time to figure that out.
Thanks everyone.
the best third level spells are
1. haste
2. slow
3. stinking cloud
in that order
the best third level spells are
1. haste
2. slow
3. stinking cloudin that order
If you're fight bears, trolls, undead and flying ice-squids, maybe. There are plenty of enemies that Stinking Cloud is better against.
Sadly, since haste no longer benefits the Magus, my magus will no longer be memorizing it.
I have a haste casting magus in my party. Please explain.
I have a haste casting magus in my party. Please explain.Sadly, since haste no longer benefits the Magus, my magus will no longer be memorizing it.
Haste only works with full round attacks, which is a type of full round action.
Spell combat is its own specific Full Round Action so it does not get to use haste.
I have a haste casting magus in my party. Please explain.Sadly, since haste no longer benefits the Magus, my magus will no longer be memorizing it.
Haste only works with full round attacks, which is a type of full round action.
Spell combat is its own specific Full Round Action so it does not get to use haste.
Which I think is silly since they have an Arcana that grants them Haste... Althought on further thought, do we really need to give a Magus more attacks?
With 2 wizards and a sorcerer in your group, coordinated blasting becomes powerful. 2 or 3 fireballs in the first round of combat can drop more foes than having 2 hasted martials.
Lesser selective metamagic rods are cheap, for when you need to blast with your allies in the area.
If there were more martials and fewer spellcasters in your group, Haste would be ideal. But that isn't the case.
If you're fight bears, trolls, undead and flying ice-squids, maybe. There are plenty of enemies that Stinking Cloud is better against.the best third level spells are
1. haste
2. slow
3. stinking cloudin that order
the abiltiy to specify your targets and not restrict the movements of your teammates and being more tactically applicable in more situations while achieveing close the same level of effictiveness as stinking clound is why overall one would have to rate slow higher than stinking cloud, even though there are some circumstances were stinking cloud will perform better.
the best third level spells are
1. haste
2. slow
3. stinking cloudin that order
But a Summon Monster 3 can conjure a Stinking Cloud: the loveable Dretch.
So you get a meat shield for a few rounds and a Stinking Cloud all in same action.
The other wizard has been somewhat erratic as he's brand new to the game (and chose one of the more complex classes).
I actually don't think a Wizard is that complex, or much harder to play than a sorcerer, as long as the player has a clear and accessible copy of his spellbook. And unlike a sorcerer, he can afford to make some mistakes with his spells learned since he can always make up for it by throwing money at the problem.
It's the martial classes that tend to collect conditional bonuses and abilities from feats and items. One of my players regularly comments that it's just as well he's so good at maths since he's playing a fighter.
I, personally, would go with Haste. I prefer my blast spells in wands, and I simply hate summons as a player. I have *one* character sheet, darn it.
I have a haste casting magus in my party. Please explain.Sadly, since haste no longer benefits the Magus, my magus will no longer be memorizing it.
Haste only works with full round attacks, which is a type of full round action.
Spell combat is its own specific Full Round Action so it does not get to use haste.
We playbitcwhere gets an extra attack, but I guess that makes sense. On the other hand, his melee attacks aren't exactly earth shattering. :)