Hi Undone,
I don't mean to sound like I'm trying to shut down this thread, but we also had a thread a few days ago about this very topic. You might want to take a look Here and look at the advice that people have there.
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Specifically at levels past 5-8 and at the upper end of a character progression 9-11. What numbers do you need to make it useful? Something like this?
1-4= AC 18-22
5-8= AC 25-29
9-11= AC 31-35Or is it much higher than that? I ask because looking at the hit progression on monsters I'd want between 50-75% miss chance from my AC. Is this feasible or will you commit too much toward AC. Assuming no class features other than proficiency you'd have 10 base 9 full plate 1 dex and 1 buckler or 2 heavy shield. This is very good at levels 1-4 but by level 5 the +1 plate and +1 buckler/shield begins to lack. Is high defenses a viable build in PFS?
I'm Intending to build a cleric for reference but generally like high AC characters and would like to know if it's viable. (Yes I will take HAProf)
I have two high AC Clerics - but both use Tower shields.
Why are you stopping at +1 armor? Cost wise, armor is cheap.
+1 ring, +1 amulet of Nat. Armor, both are only 2K.
so ...
+2 Plate Armor (+11)
+2 Tower Shield (+6)
12 Dex (+1)
+1 Ring (+1)
+1 Amulet (+1)
nets you a 30 before you start into strange things...
Cost for the magic 12K, or less than what a +4 Headband is going to cost you.
AC begins to mean less and less as you gain levels. It's still something to focus on but not to the extent that you leave other forms of defense behind. In fact, if your AC is too high the GM will just ignore you and focus on the more hitable players in your party.
I actually have a lvl 12 Barbarian who is a study in non-AC. He has an AC of 12 when pulling out all the stops (max AC of 22). This means that even with my max AC any creature I run up against will hit me unless they roll a 1. To counter this, every form of defense but AC is used. He has DR 6/-, a Low save of +16, 50% Crit/Sneak attack negation, and on top of that I chug potions of Blur/Blink (Soon to be replaced by a ring of blink), if you can squeeze an attack through all of that then I have 185 HP to soak it with. It's a pretty effective strategy and just goes to show that there are forms of defense that you can use to shore up a weak AC.
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AC begins to mean less and less as you gain levels. It's still something to focus on but not to the extent that you leave other forms of defense behind. In fact, if your AC is too high the GM will just ignore you and focus on the more hitable players in your party.
....snipping good stuff...
Hay Mat!
what happens when the judge just ignores Giamo in a fight? I think I've kept your barbarian on his feet more than once (Channel healing and shield other?)...|
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AC begins to mean less and less as you gain levels. It's still something to focus on but not to the extent that you leave other forms of defense behind. In fact, if your AC is too high the GM will just ignore you and focus on the more hitable players in your party.
If the GM wants to ignore my kensai, far be it from me to argue. Makes for a short fight though.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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One might consider a battle cleric whose main weapon is, in fact, his heavy shield (leaving the other hand open for casting). Alternatively, use a cestus or spiked gauntlet as your primary weapon alongside a heavy shield for defense, and use your weapon hand for casting with no problems.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I have a PFS character that I will never purchase armor for. Invulnerable Rager barbarian with a very high CON. I played up last night as a level 2 in a 4-5 scenario -- as the tank! No problems. Well, I did drop below half a couple of times, but with over 40 health while raging at level 2... AC isn't what's keeping me alive ;)
On the other hand, if you want to optimize AC, just have enough to make it where foes can only hit you on a natural 20. Everything past that is wasted. Also remember that AC is a great survival mechanic in PFS, but it can also be a deterrent. Some foes have combat tactics that say they go for the least armored person first, others are intelligent, and won't waste their turn attacking the wall of steel when there's a lightly armored rogue just behind. If you are going to invest in heavy armor, consider getting the glamered enchantment (+2,700 gp?). It'll make your armor appear to be nothing but simple robes or common clothes, allowing you to have that high AC but still appear to be weak -- which is what you want for drawing attacks. Do note that your armor check penalty still applies though, so NPCs might hear that jangling of steel plates even if they can't see it.
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Some foes have combat tactics that say they go for the least armored person first, others are intelligent, and won't waste their turn attacking the wall of steel when there's a lightly armored rogue just behind. If you are going to invest in heavy armor, consider getting the glamered enchantment (+2,700 gp?). It'll make your armor appear to be nothing but simple robes or common clothes, allowing you to have that high AC but still appear to be weak -- which is what you want for drawing attacks. t
This is my kensai. He walks around in robes with obvious magic in play.
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Some foes have combat tactics that say they go for the least armored person first, others are intelligent, and won't waste their turn attacking the wall of steel when there's a lightly armored rogue just behind. If you are going to invest in heavy armor, consider getting the glamered enchantment (+2,700 gp?). It'll make your armor appear to be nothing but simple robes or common clothes, allowing you to have that high AC but still appear to be weak -- which is what you want for drawing attacks. tThis is my kensai. He walks around in robes with obvious magic in play.
Or a hat of Disguise, so that I can make my Cleric look like anything. Often works for the first attack (though some Judges just ignore this and never swing at him anyway...). I've had fun with other PCs with the Hats - we swap figures in the middle of a game - he looks like me, I look like him. Great fun!
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Off Topic
Weapon Cord allows you to drop a weapon to cast (or channel).
I see this pop up a lot. Why do people think that clerics need a free hand to channel? Nothin in the description of Channel states that.
It just says "A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability." Which can be done without a free hand.
Am I missing another rule somewhere?
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Off Topic
Weapon Cord allows you to drop a weapon to cast (or channel).I see this pop up a lot. Why do people think that clerics need a free hand to channel? Nothin in the description of Channel states that.
It just says "A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability." Which can be done without a free hand.
Am I missing another rule somewhere?
I think "present her holy symbol" means grasp it in a hand and hold it up. Kinda like the old movie cliche of showing a cross to a vampire. But I'll agree that the wording isn't very clear.
And if you've got the birthmark trait, then you don't need to worry about it. Unless your GM makes you show the birthmark every time, which could get awkward, depending on where it is.
I have a PFS character that I will never purchase armor for. Invulnerable Rager barbarian with a very high CON. I played up last night as a level 2 in a 4-5 scenario -- as the tank! No problems. Well, I did drop below half a couple of times, but with over 40 health while raging at level 2... AC isn't what's keeping me alive ;)
Walter: At some point you are going to be crit and think twice about lack of armor. My lvl 12 Inv Rager has +1 armor just as a scaffold for moderate fortification. 50% crit/sneak attack negation has saved my bacon more than once. You will have that moment like I did when a GM flanked me with a rogue Ettin, scored 3 sneak attacks and a crit, and my armor negated them all. At that moment I could not have been happier with the choice.
My cleric has a sanctified shield so he can "present" this shield to channel.
And if you've got the birthmark trait, then you don't need to worry about it. Unless your GM makes you show the birthmark every time, which could get awkward, depending on where it is.
We had a cleric of groetus (a moon god) with a birthmark in the appropriate place whip it out to channel against the final boss of God's market gamble.
Nat 20 right to the keister!
Walter: At some point you are going to be crit and think twice about lack of armor. My lvl 12 Inv Rager has +1 armor just as a scaffold for moderate fortification. 50% crit/sneak attack negation has saved my bacon more than once. You will have that moment like I did when a GM flanked me with a rogue Ettin, scored 3 sneak attacks and a crit, and my armor negated them all. At that moment I could not have been happier with the choice.I have a PFS character that I will never purchase armor for. Invulnerable Rager barbarian with a very high CON. I played up last night as a level 2 in a 4-5 scenario -- as the tank! No problems. Well, I did drop below half a couple of times, but with over 40 health while raging at level 2... AC isn't what's keeping me alive ;)
Maybe he'll get Bracers of Armor?
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I think "present her holy symbol" means grasp it in a hand and hold it up. Kinda like the old movie cliche of showing a cross to a vampire. But I'll agree that the wording isn't very clear.
And if you've got the birthmark trait, then you don't need to worry about it. Unless your GM makes you show the birthmark every time, which could get awkward, depending on where it is.
It's not really clear in the rules. Personally, I'm a lenient GM in that regard and as long as it's out (like, on a necklace and not hidden under your clothes/armor) you're fine. But knowing that what you describe is also reasonable, I make sure any cleric I build is ready for that kind of presenting.
(snipped)
On the other hand, if you want to optimize AC, just have enough to make it where foes can only hit you on a natural 20. Everything past that is wasted. (snipped)
Is this really what people consider an optimized AC? To me that's not optimized, that's excessive. Also impractical.
20+level will give you excellent AC at low levels and about a 50% chance of not being hit from levels 10-20.
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Is this really what people consider an optimized AC? To me that's not optimized, that's excessive. Also impractical.(snipped)
On the other hand, if you want to optimize AC, just have enough to make it where foes can only hit you on a natural 20. Everything past that is wasted. (snipped)
Depending on class and build, it's not particularly difficult. True AC builds can hit 60+ AC by level 20 while retaining considerable offensive ability.
CR+20 AC is something wizards do.
It's just hard to say, Undone. The thing is that monster attack bonuses vary widely, even amongst monsters of the same CR.
A Vrock (CR9) has an attack bonus of +13
A Elder Earth Elemental (CR9) has an attack bonus of +21.
that's an enormous difference. In other words, what ac is good enough to get missed 75% of the time basically depends entirely on what you're fighting. Vs CR9 vrokcs it's 29 (which is 20+level, incidentally) but vs cr9 earth elementals, you'd need a 37.
I try to take a balanced approach between offense and defense. My usual rule of thumb is: "how hard would it be for *me* to hit me?" IE: If I were fighting a clone of myself with all my gear, what would I need to hit under typical circumstances? I figure that if I can keep that number around 10, I'm doing a good job balancing offense and defense. If it's a lot more than that, I probably need to spend my gold trying to improve my hit bonuses. If it's a lot less than that, I probably should work on my AC.
We had a cleric of groetus (a moon god)
That's a rather... understated... description of Groetus.
My sword and board fighter at 11th (past retirement arc now) had an AC of 37. This was sufficient to make mooks inconsequential and bosses a lot less dangerous. Now of course he didn't do as much damage as a 2 hander, but his damage was not something an opponent could ignore either(using a falcata meant that if he did land a crit, it was surely noticed). As a fighter he had fairly mediocre saves though, and he often had trouble with being on the receiving end of spells.
I'm working up a tankier fighter, who's offense will be slightly lower, but with much better saves and a slightly higher AC. Should be interesting.
Personally I'd say people who discount AC are masochists. Yes, it takes resources to pursue it, but without enough AC every mook is a valid threat. Having the ability to simply not care about mook AOOs and focus on the boss is very handy for solving a tactical issue. Oh and the ability to really not care if you are surrounded by rogues is always worth a chuckle.
Clerics can also use magic vestment to save a LOT of money on armor and shields.
37 seems like a good target number for retirement. Ideally I want something like 25+ level so I have reasonable mitigation. As a cleric I see the math ending like this.10 base
9 full plate
1 dex
1 heart of the street
2 sheild+4 armor
+4 sheild
+2 natural armor amulet
+1 Ioun stone
+1 Jingasa of the fortunate soldier
=35 for 51500Additional optional items include tower shield and ring of protection to have a static bonus instead of having to cast shield of faith. Additionally it's easy to save 12k on the armor and sheild and have 33 AC or 35 with tower shield. The question is simple. Is it worth almost 2/3rds of my 82k for AC? The other items I'd need would be a +4 wis and +4 str item totaling 32k or most of my money leaving little to nothing for a weapon or resistance cloak.
You can save 6k using a ring of protection +1 and an amulet +1 instead of the amulet +2. In any case the ring of protection is better than the amulet since being a deflection bonus it helps your touch AC. I would turn 4k of that savings into a +2 cloak.
On the fighter I mention, I spent a fair number of feats boosting AC (dodge, shield focus, greater shield focus), and with armor training I got more out of my dex as well. However he was about 10k behind on WBL from having to play down a lot as there weren't enough high level people in the area to always play to his level.
The current tank fighter will very likely come out closer to a 40 before he retires because of defender of the society, iron hide, and the fact that he has not been forced to play down at all. I think he should be able to attain 41 AC before hitting 12th. He also has very good saves with steel soul.
I have a 10th Level Paladin in PFS. I took a level or Oracle so he can use his CHA for AC giving him an effective 18 DEX for AC purposes. That and a Mithral Breastplate have kept me relatively unhittable in PFS. The majority of her career she two-handed a Longsword. Recently (level 9) it wasn't enough and I was getting clocked with some regularity, so I have invested in a shield. At level 10 my AC is 30 and I don't get hit very much.
My goal is to hit ~75% miss chance (IE only hit on a 16+) which would mean I'd need at least a 31 vs +15. The reason this is my goal is that if I'm at 75% miss chance on the first attack I can't be hit by iterative attacks and power attacks have to crit to hit me. The question is how much + to hit does the average levle 7-8, 9-11 encounter mobs have + to hit.
If your shooting for a 75% miss chance on the first iterative/natural attack then I would look at the monster creation table in the PRD. This will give you rough average of what AC to shoot for. Some monsters to hit will be less, some more, but it's a good place to start. With that in mind your AC should be about 18 at 1st level and progress to around 46 at level 20.
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How's this for crazy AC...
Nagaji (just got the boon) Tower Shield Specialist
Here he is at level 12
Nagaji Fighter Test
Nagaji Fighter (Tower Shield Specialist) 12
CN Medium Humanoid (reptilian)
Init +3; Senses low-light vision; Perception +20
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Defense
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AC 38, touch 24, flat-footed 34 (+12 armor, +8 shield, +3 Dex, +2 natural, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 136 (12d10+60)
Fort +11, Ref +7 (+3 vs burst spells and effects while using a tower shield, +1 vs burst spells and effects while using a tower shield, +1 vs burst spells and effects while using a tower shield), Will +8; +2 bonus vs. mind-affecting effects and poison
Defensive Abilities burst barrier +3, tower shield defense
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 Adamantine Terbutje, steel +20/+15/+10 (1d8+10/17-20/x2)
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Statistics
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Str 20, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 5, Wis 14, Cha 9
Base Atk +12; CMB +17; CMD 39
Feats Covering Defense, Dodge, Greater Shield Focus, Greater Shield Specialization (Tower Shield) (1/day), Greater Weapon Focus (Terbutje, steel), Greater Weapon Specialization (Terbutje, steel), Improved Critical (Terbutje, steel), Iron Will, Shield Focus, Shield Specialization (Tower Shield), Toughness +12, Weapon Focus (Terbutje, steel), Weapon Specialization (Terbutje, steel)
Traits Defender of the Society, Tomb Raider (Perception)
Skills Acrobatics -5, Climb -3, Escape Artist -5, Fly -5, Perception +20, Ride -5, Stealth -5, Swim -3; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Draconic
SQ resistant, serpent's sense, tower shield specialist, tower shield training 3
Other Gear +2 Full plate, +2 Tower shield, +1 Adamantine Terbutje, steel, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of incredible dexterity +2, Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ring of protection +1,
Total cost of gear is... ~27000, very doable at level 12
If you just want a high AC, haveyou looked at the holy vindicator prestige class? They have an ability where you expend 1 channel burst to give yourself a holy (or profane) bonus to AC equal to the number of die in your channel burst. Biggest downside would be falling 1 lv behind on your spell progression.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/holy-vindi cator
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Undone, you might want to consider Magical Knack, since, while you would still lose some spell progression, you would still be at full caster level, as long as you don't take more than two levels of classes that do not provide boosts to your Cleric levels.
You might also consider either the archetype for Cleric that gives heavy plate and a martial weapon proficiency right out of the box; or going into Oracle of Battle instead of Cleric.
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How's this for crazy AC...
AC 38, touch 24, flat-footed 34 (+12 armor, +8 shield, +3 Dex, +2 natural, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
AC: 42+1 (10 + 3 DEX Mod (Max DEX 4) + 12 Armor (+4 O-Yoroi) + 8 Shield (+4 Darkwood Tower Shield) + 1 Size (Halfling) + 1 AC (Defender of the Society Trait)) + 1 Shield (Shield Focus) + 2 Deflection (Ring of Protection +2) + 2 Natural (Amulet of Natural Armor +2) + 1 Insight (Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone) + 1 Luck (Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier))
Touch: 18+1 (10 + 3 DEX Mod (Max DEX 4) + 1 Size (Halfling) + 2 Deflection (Ring of Protection +2) + 1 Insight (Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone) + 1 Luck (Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier))
Flat-Footed: 39+1 (10 + 12 Armor (+4 O-Yoroi) + 8 Shield (+4 Darkwood Tower Shield) + 1 Size (Halfling) + 1 AC (Defender of the Society Trait) + 1 Shield (Shield Focus) + 2 Deflection (Ring of Protection +2) + 2 Natural (Amulet of Natural Armor +2) + 1 Insight (Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone) + 1 Luck (Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier))
Fighting Defensively: 48+1 ((10 + 3 DEX Mod (Max DEX 4) + 12 Armor (+4 O-Yoroi) + 8 Shield (+4 Darkwood Tower Shield) + 1 Size (Halfling) + 1 AC (Defender of the Society Trait) + 2 Dodge (Fighting Defensively) + 1 Dodge (Acrobatics 3) + 2 Dodge (Cautious Fighter) + 1 Shield (Shield Focus) + 1 Dodge (Crane Style) + 2 Deflection (Ring of Protection +2) + 2 Natural (Amulet of Natural Armor +2) + 1 Insight (Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone) + 1 Luck (Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier))
Full Defense: 51+1 ((10 + 3 DEX Mod (Max DEX 4) + 12 Armor (+4 O-Yoroi) + 8 Shield (+4 Darkwood Tower Shield) + 1 Size (Halfling) + 1 AC (Defender of the Society Trait) + 4 Dodge (Full Defense) + 2 Dodge (Acrobatics 3) + 2 Dodge (Cautious Fighter) + 1 Shield (Shield Focus) + 1 Dodge (Crane Style) + 2 Deflection (Ring of Protection +2) + 2 Natural (Amulet of Natural Armor +2) + 1 Insight (Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone) + 1 Luck (Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier))
Fighting Defensively (Touch): 24+1 ((10 + 3 DEX Mod (Max DEX 4) + 1 Size (Halfling) + 2 Dodge (Fighting Defensively) + 1 Dodge (Acrobatics 3) + 2 Dodge (Cautious Fighter) + 1 Dodge (Crane Style) + 2 Deflection (Ring of Protection +2) + 1 Insight (Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone) + 1 Luck (Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier))
Full Defense (Touch): 27+1 ((10 + 3 DEX Mod (Max DEX 4) + 1 Size (Halfling) + 4 Dodge (Full Defense) + 2 Dodge (Acrobatics 3) + 2 Dodge (Cautious Fighter) + 1 Dodge (Crane Style) + 2 Deflection (Ring of Protection +2) + 1 Insight (Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone) + 1 Luck (Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier))
Note: If opponent is Larger than Self, add +1 AC (Dodge) to total (Underfoot Trait).
Note: If using Fighting Defensively or Full Defense, Adjacent Allies receive AC (Luck) equivalent to 1/2 of AC (Dodge) gained from action. (Blundering Defense Feat)
Note: If using Full Defense, Single Adjacent Ally gains AC (Cover) equivalent to Shield bonus from Shield (Covering Defense Feat)
Fighting Defensively: 6 AC (Dodge) / 2 = 3 AC (Luck) to Allies
Full Defense: 9 AC (Dodge) / 2 = 4 AC (Luck) to Allies; + 9 AC (Cover) to single Ally.
So, Full Defense against a Medium-sized creature, 51 AC. Adjacent Allies gain +4 AC (Luck), while a targeted Adjacent Ally gains +9 AC (Cover). If they do not have a shield, lets say like a barbarian, I can give +2 AC (Shield) as an Immediate Action (Saving Shield Feat). So if I am next to a single Ally, +15 AC.
If I wanted to go like end-game final boss of scenario, I can grab the Mantle of the Protector, which if set right, can give another ally my AC (Armor/Shield) for 9 minutes (10-1 for waiting to recover own AC).
So,
- 51 AC to self, +15 AC (4 Luck/9 Cover/2 Shield)
- 51 AC to self, +33 AC (12 Armor/8 Shield/4 Luck/9 Cover)to Ally for 9 minutes/day.
Cram as much metal onto a halfing's rumpus and see it save lives.
Assuming your gear configuration approximately.
+2 Full plate 5.5k
+2 tower shield 4k
+1 amulet of natural 2k
+1 Ioun stone 5k
+1 Luck 5k10 base 11 armor 6 shield 1 dex 1 amulet 1 ioun stone 1 trait = 32. Which while good is simply not high enough even with the +1 off the ring of protection. An at level purple worm has a +25 to hit. The AC would have to be substantially higher to work. Even with the +4 from shield of faith you're at 50% not 75%. Unfortunately as a cleric I'm not able to pickup all the defensive feats It will cost me another huge amount of money to be able to reach that AC the real question is how has your experience been having a high AC melee character?
I wouldn't look at 1 monster and make your judgements from that. Average high hit for a CR 11 Monster (which is 12th level) is 19. At 32 AC they'll miss 60% of the time. You're 38 AC means they'll hit 10% of the time. Considering the lowest you can get that is 5, I'd call that pretty good.
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At level 7 my kensai's AC varies from 25 to mid 30's depending on buffs and actions taken.
By retirement he'll be maintaining an AC in the mid 40's.
If I were to continue progression, an AC in the upper 50's or lower 60's would be possible by level 20.
I could take crane wing with a single level dip into MoMS at level 9 or by expending my level 9 and 11 feats without dipping.
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1. 1 or 2 encounters in a scenario.
2. Not often, but I've seen TPK's.
3. High enough AC turns non-caster BBEG's into mooks.
A character with high AC can solo most non-caster encounters without resource expenditure. With high saves and evasion, encounters with casters are equally trivial.
It should be noted, PFS likes 5' wide corridors, limiting the number of PC's that can engage. Low AC character can go down very quickly even against even CR encounters when focus fired upon in such situations.