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Oh I read it. I just disagreed utterlywith it. Did you? Because once you or others said zero reference would be a ghost world, none of that happened long ago when I played, nor was anyone worried about sexual orintation for a great adventure, town or world.Did you read the rest of the post? Or just that sentence?
The part about parents? Or children? Or married couples?
Even the occasional romance as motivation?
Didn't 1E have a table of names for prostitutes?None of those had "zero references, however oblique or indirect, to sexuality".
We never made much of a fuss about homosexuality back in the day, if that's what you mean. We weren't all that enlightened, I guess.
But there were at least oblique sexual references. Characters and NPCs had parents, even if they didn't always show up on stage. There were children around, implying that someone had sex fairly recently. Some NPCs were married, even if only the King and the Queen. The occasional romance with a rescued princess or fling with a bar wench, faded to black of course.
That's the kind of thing that we meant by "oblique or indirect reference to sexuality"?
Did your adventures, towns and worlds really lack any hints of heterosexuality? Or sexual reproduction? Because that boggles my mind.
Or is that just so common and obvious that you don't think of it as a reference to sexual orientation? Only talking about homosexuality counts?
Pretty much this. I think it would be easy for many people to think of those early settings as being "free of sexuality" when in actuality opposite-sex pairs permeate the setting. It just comes across as unremarkable.
It's a point-of-view question. To a straight, cis-gendered person (who is not sensitive to these things, as I know there are plenty of straight people who can spot heteronormativity when they see it), all of the kings and queens, tempting succubi, and damsels in distress are just business as usual and not sexual at all. For me, it was always painfully obvious that the writers of those settings found it easier to pretend that people like me did not exist.
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EDIT: 'cause reasons. It's not like I hit the wrong button or anything...
Who is the dyslexiac iconnic?Vlaeros.
Do you mean me?
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No, dufus, it was a joke about me.
You know, I don't think "dufus" is a word. Autocorrect doesn't like it. Of course, Autocorrect doesn't like "Autocorrect", so...
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You know, you should get laid more. It'd help.
Get Lidda more? But that's the wrong IP!
No, no. I meant... you know what? Never mind.
EDIT: I'm going to go hang out with Imrijka.
Okay, that's fine. Took me a while to see what the joke was anyway.
Speaking of 1D&D, weren't there rules for orgies? It's where this picture is from (Semi NSFW but everything is censored. I swear it had stuff like its affects on psionics and magic and all that.
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I'll accept any heartwarming pictures of Imrijka X Valeros rated from G to X.I can try...
So, uh, here we go?
_^^_,,,
[**](**)
----====
. /[[ ]] \ / :::: \
. | .][. | | \ :: / |
* {||} ** {||} *
.. {||} {||}
.. <--> <-->... see, Imrijka is on the right (it's clear because of the hat), and Valeros is on the left (you can tell because he has no hat).
Does this satisfy, great one?
(My meager skills aside.)
This is the best thing.
This is the best thing.I'll accept any heartwarming pictures of Imrijka X Valeros rated from G to X.I can try...
So, uh, here we go?
_^^_,,,
[**](**)
----====
. /[[ ]] \ / :::: \
. | .][. | | \ :: / |
* {||} ** {||} *
.. {||} {||}
.. <--> <-->... see, Imrijka is on the right (it's clear because of the hat), and Valeros is on the left (you can tell because he has no hat).
Does this satisfy, great one?
(My meager skills aside.)
Glad to see ASCII porn makes it past the mods ;)
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Huh, I don't see any naughty bits.
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Lastly - my refusal to give you an exanation is simply there isn't anything deeper and your opinion of me seems already set. Does every question that leaves your mouth have to have an ulterior motive? (Or perhaps the fact that I play PF with some very young players does provide me with an unterior motive for not wanting sexual references?)
Anyway, you've continued to press your suspicions for long enough and found nothing. The only "evidence" of bigotry you've uncovered required some very convulated and selective examination of individual sentences and on occasion even individual words. You are simply over-examing everything I say, disregarding what doesn't fit your preformed opinion and I am at a loss as to how to convince you otherwise.
Then I'll drop it. If you say that it is genuinely only explicit references to sexuality that bother you, regardless of whether they refer to heterosexuality or non-heterosexuality, I'll take you at your word. I'm sorry if I came across as needlessly hostile or badgering; I should have made more of an effort to understand where you were coming from.
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Huh, I don't see any naughty bits.
Whenever I look at it, I see Imrijka wearing a pair of breasts as a belt.
Disturbing, on multiple counts.
Huh, I don't see any naughty bits.
I don't either! And I made it!
They're, like, holding hands!
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Huh, I don't see any naughty bits.I don't either! And I made it!
They're, like, holding hands!
OK, good, 'cause that's what I thought, and it seemed very sweet. :-)
But wow, who knew it was going to be a Rorschach test? :-o
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Huh, I don't see any naughty bits.Whenever I look at it, I see Imrijka wearing a pair of breasts as a belt.
Disturbing, on multiple counts.
Yeah that's what I see too!
Also, Imrijka and Valeros is like a thing on DeviantArt. Although I saw a cool picture of Valeros and Amiri being total bros. I'd imagine that's how they'd be like in real life.
"Dude bro, you wanna slay some dragons?"
"Hell yeah brah, afterwards we'll drink some ale from its skull!"
"DUDE BRAH!"
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Huh, I don't see any naughty bits.
Are you implying Valeros's hands aren't one of his naughtiest bits?
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I think it's this part "| .][. | " that makes me think boobs.
I'm a terrible person :D
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No, dufus, it was a joke about me.
Hey Valeros, when you get dyslexic, you break out in head-tentacles and tribal tattoos.
I didn't realize Twi'Lek was an STD.
*Hits self "Bad TWP, BAD BAD BAD!"*
Huh, I don't see any naughty bits.I don't either! And I made it!
They're, like, holding hands!
OK, good, 'cause that's what I thought, and it seemed very sweet. :-)
But wow, who knew it was going to be a Rorschach test? :-o
I know!
In any event, I did note my skills were meager. (It means they suck.) Especially on a forum, where I have to use dots to come close to lining things up, it's going to look pretty wonky, and beyond that, I guess I can see how things look different to different people. But yeah, no, I'm... not the type to make, er, "that" kind of art.
I'm pleased that people like it, though!
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I think it's this part "| .][. | " that makes me think boobs.
I'm a terrible person :D
There is nothing terrible about seeing boobies in text.
It's when you start trying to TOUCH every pair you see in text, without the permission of the-
*hits self again* NO. BAD.
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Uh oh.
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Uh oh.
What happens between you and ASCII stick figures stays between you and ASCII stick figures.
Hopefully.
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I'm sure this is some kind of metaphor for how some people can see naughty things in something innocent, but I'm too busy preparing my sacrifice for Ultimate Campaign to release early.
I think it's this part "| .][. | " that makes me think boobs.
I'm a terrible person :D
And thus, art is forever corrupted from its innocence. *sadface*
()
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I'm sure this is some kind of metaphor for how some people can see naughty things in something innocent
Parachiropractor Zarta Dralneen, helping Golarion work out their kinks, one pathfinder at a time
(okay sometimes two or three pathfinders at a time)
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This topic is now about Imrijka and Valeros. And why Valeros has a thing for half-orc women dressed like Carmen Sandiego.
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This topic is now about Imrijka and Valeros. And why Valeros has a thing for half-orc women dressed like Carmen Sandiego.
He likes it when she travels to different parts of Golarion and commits oddly complicated petty crimes and leaves clues for him to track down with the help of strange children.
It's why he'd never been able to get in Seoni's Skirt. His fetishes are just Too. Damned. Complicated.
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I think it's this part "| .][. | " that makes me think boobs.
I'm a terrible person :D
And thus, art is forever corrupted from its innocence. *sadface*
()
Art hasn't been innocent since...
... Nevermind, art has never been innocent.
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This topic is now about Imrijka and Valeros. And why Valeros has a thing for half-orc women dressed like Carmen Sandiego.He likes it when she travels to different parts of Golarion and commits oddly complicated petty crimes and leaves clues for him to track down with the help of strange children.
It's why he'd never been able to get in Seoni's Skirt. His fetishes are just Too. Damned. Complicated.
Can you imagine how romantic that is? Imrijka stealing the Eiffel Tower so there's a beautiful landmark they can escape to to make love?
Where's Mikaze? I think we have a writing project to be done for NaNoWriMo this year.
valeros as a 15-20 range keen paired kukri build with butterfly sting
imrijka as a scythe-wielding x4 hitter
nothing shows your love more than giving her your crits
I think it's this part "| .][. | " that makes me think boobs.
I'm a terrible person :D
And I see it more like a butt. Don't know why, I am focusing more on boobs than butts normally.
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This topic is now about Imrijka and Valeros. And why Valeros has a thing for half-orc women dressed like Carmen Sandiego.He likes it when she travels to different parts of Golarion and commits oddly complicated petty crimes and leaves clues for him to track down with the help of strange children.
It's why he'd never been able to get in Seoni's Skirt. His fetishes are just Too. Damned. Complicated.
Can you imagine how romantic that is? Imrijka stealing the Eiffel Tower so there's a beautiful landmark they can escape to to make love?
Where's Mikaze? I think we have a writing project to be done for NaNoWriMo this year.
She stands upon the broken precipice of The Arch of Aroden, the ocean breeze stirring her crimson coat around those powerful, muscular green legs...
No I'm going to stop now.
I'm going to stop now.
For the best, I think.
As for the earlier reference to writers pretending people don't exist, at least its down to thoughtlessness rather than malice or some twisted sense of propriety.
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To me, the flaw in the argument about the iconic's sexuality and sexual identity being important to their characters is highlighted in the title of this thread; we don't know which iconic this applies to.
We know that Kyra's a lesbian and Mersi's bisexual. We don't know which is a gay male, we don't know which is a trensexual/transgender, and we don't know where the others stand.
Why is it kept a secret at all? What's the big reveal this is building up to? Is it really some ground breaking thing that will shake how we look at the individual's actions up to the point when we find out that they were born with the wrong organ between their legs?
I have no problem with the iconics representing various walks of life, though I don't know how much it matters. End of the day, they're names and stats, nothing more. I can have Mersi shows up in my game as an asexual and Valeros as a gay man and there isn't anything James Jacobs or anyone else at Paizo can do to stop me. If they hadn't gone into sexuality one way or another, any(or all) of the iconics could(and still can be) the homo/hetero/bi/transexual iconic in any given player's home game to best suit their tastes and the needs of the story.
But again, to my original point, why the secrecy on the subject. If it's an important part of the character it should have been revealed already.
To me, the flaw in the argument about the iconic's sexuality and sexual identity being important to their characters is highlighted in the title of this thread; we don't know which iconic this applies to.
We know that Kyra's a lesbian and Mersi's bisexual. We don't know which is a gay male, we don't know which is a trensexual/transgender, and we don't know where the others stand.
Why is it kept a secret at all? What's the big reveal this is building up to? Is it really some ground breaking thing that will shake how we look at the individual's actions up to the point when we find out that they were born with the wrong organ between their legs?
I have no problem with the iconics representing various walks of life, though I don't know how much it matters. End of the day, they're names and stats, nothing more. I can have Mersi shows up in my game as an asexual and Valeros as a gay man and there isn't anything James Jacobs or anyone else at Paizo can do to stop me. If they hadn't gone into sexuality one way or another, any(or all) of the iconics could(and still can be) the homo/hetero/bi/transexual iconic in any given player's home game to best suit their tastes and the needs of the story.
But again, to my original point, why the secrecy on the subject. If it's an important part of the character it should have been revealed already.
I think the delay is due to the fact that the Iconics have always occupied this nebulous state somewhere between being characters with their own stories, and being ready-made PC's for any prospective player to develop as they like.
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'Paizout' claims that Amiri is a BINO (Barbarian in Name Only). She's got cafe curtains and track lighting in her yurt and knows the use of every fork in a placesetting.I can forgive her anything as long as she doesn't eat Pizza with a fork.
It's basic really. You fold it, hold it on one hand, and use the other hand to wave away the paparazzi.
You've obviously never had Chicago style stuffed pizza. And I'm not talking the fake "deep dish" stuff that you see all over America. I'm talking the real stuff, with 3 inch tall slices.
But when it comes to New York style pizza, I wholeheartedly agree.
Ok, now you've got me craving pizza, even though I'm on a diet. I already know that's the first thing I'm going to eat in June (dieting through the end of May).
You can always get Lou Malnati's shipped to you. :-) I lived in Chicago for close to a decade and miss that pizza... mind you, I like NY style too- which seems to be very popular here in southern Florida. But, man, I miss me some Lou Malnati's...
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Lou's is pretty good, but I recommend Giordano's, which also ships pizza, or Uno's which has franchises in some places blessed enough to have access to Chicago-style pizza.
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I think it's this part "| .][. | " that makes me think boobs.
I'm a terrible person :D
There is nothing terrible about seeing boobies in text.
It's when you start trying to TOUCH every pair you see in text, without the permission of the-
*hits self again* NO. BAD.
Just make surr you're being safe and using a firewall. You don't want to get any textually transmitted diseases.
Just make surr you're being safe and using a firewall. You don't want to get any textually transmitted diseases.I think it's this part "| .][. | " that makes me think boobs.
I'm a terrible person :D
There is nothing terrible about seeing boobies in text.
It's when you start trying to TOUCH every pair you see in text, without the permission of the-
*hits self again* NO. BAD.
... my art*. :`(
* Poor as it is.
Just make surr you're being safe and using a firewall. You don't want to get any textually transmitted diseases.I think it's this part "| .][. | " that makes me think boobs.
I'm a terrible person :D
There is nothing terrible about seeing boobies in text.
It's when you start trying to TOUCH every pair you see in text, without the permission of the-
*hits self again* NO. BAD.
... my art*. :`(
* Poor as it is.
Shameful smut! Your explicit pornography is bad and you should feel bad!
(V) ;,,; (V)
I jest, of course. It's a fun diversion in an otherwise rather interesting thread.
Shameful smut! Your explicit pornography is bad and you should feel bad!
(V) ;,,; (V)
I jest, of course. It's a fun diversion in an otherwise rather interesting thread.
Whaaaaaaaaaaah! I feel baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad!
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Okay, I have just painstakingly read every post in this thread.
Few things to say:
1) There are no TRPGs with accompanying lore that does not include a reference to sexuality, in some way, that I know of. Most people just don't even consider it a reference to sexuality, unless it is not of the heterosexual kind. Admit it, or not, it exists in the games you've played.
2) "PC bullcrap", This seems to be the weirdest, and unfounded, objection. As the years of stranger references to much more explicit, and strange types of sexuality has been in D&D since 1st edition. Half-Dragons?
3) It seems odd that becoming more inclusive gets such a negative response from some, as if there was malice behind it. It seems the closer a subject gets to something that exists in the real world, the more offended some become.
4) You don't have to include it in your game. I was really put off by some of the heavy Necrophiliac overtones of Vampire the Masquerade, so I left them out during my game.
5) Finally, I am glad there is so much inclusion provided by Paizo. My buddy wasn't even aware that you could play a LGBT PC, as if it were disallowed in the rules or something. He is much more happy with the game in general, even if not playing a LGBT PC. Thank you Paizo.