Anytime you lose a prerequisite for a class, feat, or other character option, that option stops working until you meet the prerequisites again.
For example, if you took the two weapon fighting feat, and later got Dexterity drained below the required 15, you lose the benefits of the feat until you recover, unless you have other mitigating circumstances, like being a ranger.
-j
That would suck for you. You would loose those class levels. My recommendation is to grab any class based requirements with non-magical items. This way you also won't loose class levels if you are in an anti-magic field or have your items dispelled.
There are no clear rule examples for using a magic item to qualify for a prstige class but there is an SKR post explaining how the situation works for magic items and qualifying for feats. This is what we are all basing it off of.
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This way, the character isn't completely crippled, but the player has considerable inducement to get into the class honestly instead of cheesing his way in this fashion.
I think that's a pretty harsh way of saying it. It's not "cheesing", but it is a potentially dangerous way to qualify for the PRC, since it is possible to lose it.
This way, the character isn't completely crippled, but the player has considerable inducement to get into the class honestly instead of cheesing his way in this fashion.I think that's a pretty harsh way of saying it. It's not "cheesing", but it is a potentially dangerous way to qualify for the PRC, since it is possible to lose it.
The OP's version, buying a headband, taking the PrC, then selling the headband, is exactly "cheesing". If someone were to buy the headband fully intending to wear it forever and integrate that headband into their future PrC selections, I would agree that it's not "cheesing" since the headband is designed to teach you a useful skill (no more cheesy than a fighter using a magical sword to hit his enemies).
It's the selling it immediately after entering the PrC that is the "cheesing" part.
Fortunately, the rules are pretty clear on how this would affect feats (losing the prerequisite means not being able to use the feat), and it's a clear precedent for other game mechanics with prerequisites, so losing the prerequisite knowledge skill means losing access to the benefits of the PrC. True, it's not explicit in the rules, but the precedent is and the situation is similar enough that it seems pretty clearly the right way to rule it.
Also, it does not say what happens to the skill ranks that are granted by the higher intelligence. Do they vanish?
Yes they vanish. You only get them from the headband, if you don't have the headband anymore then you don't have the skill ranks anymore.
How does one know which ranks are from the headband?
Hopefully you keep track of such stuff. Since you know the ranks could be temporary, make a note of how many ranks you actually put into the skill yourself and how many are from the headband. Since the headband always keeps the ranks equal to your level, that bit is easy, just don't erase your own ranks.
For example, if you're 8th level and get a headband of Knowledge (Arcana) but you already have put 2 ranks in the skill, you could write 8(2) in the "Ranks" column of your character sheet, the 8 representing your total ranks and the (2) representing your actual invested ranks.
Where is the "you don't meet the prereqs, so the options stop working" clause actually stated? I mean, it's spelled out in the Druid and Paladin class listings, modified in the Monk's listing, talked around in a wishy-washy way in the Cleric's listing, and omitted in Barbarian and Bard listing.
There's nothing in the Prestige class section that I can see either. Chapter 11 states: "Unlike the core classes, characters must meet specific requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class."
(emphasis added)Certain prestige classes (eg. Souldrinker) do specify what happens when you no longer meet a prerequesite, but this feels like the exception rather than the rule.
(Also, perhaps this should be in the Rules forum. Either I'm reading something wrong or something should be fixed in the FAQ / Sixth printing)
I did always wonder what happened to an assassin that did the whole redemption thing. i mean, they certainly would not lose their skills... maybe a monk sort of thing where you can't take more levels since you do not have the disregard for life necessary to further hone assassination skills?
Personally, for the dragon disciple example, if you did lose class abilities, I think it should be a paladin sort of thing, where you lose all your nifty powers, but your still keep the BAB, HD, and such. Maaaayybbeee... keep the growth in draconic bloodline too if you got them from sorcerer. But that is stretching it.
Int items are keyed to a skill in my games. Lose the piece, lose the skill.
The way I see it, you sell the headband, you lose the INT bonus & the HD skill ranks that's it. The extra skill point(s) from a boosted INT score IS NOT LOST. It doesn't make any sense otherwise, you don't forget the experience you had and remembrance of what you put into learning.
HOWEVER, as a DM I would never allow skill rank bonus from the headband to count for any prestige class in the first place as they don't stack with the ranks the player already has naturally gained.
The extra HD skill ranks are the skill ranks ranks from boosted Intelligence. The Headband predetermines what skills gain those ranks (1 skill per +2 Int bonus). The character doesn't get to double-dip skill ranks with the item.
The extra HD skill ranks are the skill ranks ranks from boosted Intelligence. The Headband predetermines what skills gain those ranks (1 skill per +2 Int bonus). The character doesn't get to double-dip skill ranks with the item.
1 skill per +2 bonus yes, but that is not how I read it.
For example a wizard with an 18 INT has 6 skill points
He puts on the headband and lets say the skill linked to it is K:geography and the wizard is level 5.
The wizard gets 5 non stacking ranks in geography, and a new INT of 20.
He goes to level 6 and gets 7 skill points since his INT is 20 now, and his K: geography goes to a non stacking 6 ranks.
So if he sells the headband at level 7, he loses the non stacking ranks in geography and being INT 18 again only gets 6 skill points again.
That's how I do it.
When I read the title of this thread I thought it was going to be about handling character nudity. "What happens when items are taken off?" Things start to get nasty. Bow chicka bowwow.
I don't allow worn ability-boosting items to count for ability score minimun prerequisites for feats, etc.
IOW, if you have a 12 STR, you can't take the Power Attack feat, even if you have a belt of giant strength +2. On the flip side, if you have a 14 STR and a belt of giant strength +2, and you get hit with 3 points of Str drain, you still have an effective Str of 13 while you're wearing the belt, so you can use Power Attack.
As for Knowledge and INT-boosting items...
The rules say that the item grants one skill per +2 bonus of the item and a number of ranks equal to the wearer's total hit dice.
Thes are the only extra skill points the character gets.
IOW... what KingmanHighborn said.
When I read the title of this thread I thought it was going to be about handling character nudity. "What happens when items are taken off?" Things start to get nasty. Bow chicka bowwow.
Yeah, and if you add this thread to today's "Switch Hitter" thread, your Pathfinder game can take a walk on the wild side...
The extra HD skill ranks are the skill ranks ranks from boosted Intelligence. The Headband predetermines what skills gain those ranks (1 skill per +2 Int bonus). The character doesn't get to double-dip skill ranks with the item.1 skill per +2 bonus yes, but that is not how I read it.
For example a wizard with an 18 INT has 6 skill points
He puts on the headband and lets say the skill linked to it is K:geography and the wizard is level 5.
The wizard gets 5 non stacking ranks in geography, and a new INT of 20.
He goes to level 6 and gets 7 skill points since his INT is 20 now, and his K: geography goes to a non stacking 6 ranks.
So if he sells the headband at level 7, he loses the non stacking ranks in geography and being INT 18 again only gets 6 skill points again.
Colour me confused. How does that say
The extra skill point(s) from a boosted INT score IS NOT LOST
? Because it reads to me as if they are, which is why I posted.
Okay let's see if I can simplify it then.
lvl 5 INT 18 = X points & 5 nonstacking ranks in the linked skill
lvl 6 INT 20 = X points + 1 more for 20 (this is an extra skill point)
& 6 nonstacking ranks in the linked skill
lvl 7 INT 18 = X points again
You don't lost that extra point at 6th lvl.
You only lose the boosted skill linked with the item and the +2 INT
If you wore the item from lvl 5 to lvl 10 you would have 5 extra skill ranks to use as you see fit, AND 10 non stacking ranks in the linked skill.
Ah, gotcha. So, just to make sure I've got this right, your idea is that headbands that improve Intelligence grant more bonuses than any other stat-boosting item, at no increase in cost?
My interpretation of them is that the skill ranks granted are the ones you would get from the Intelligence increase, so in the example you've presented, at level 6 the character only has X points to spend, because the +1 is already being used by the headband to provide the 6 non-stacking ranks in the linked skill.
I'm quite happy to take this matter to the Rules forum, if needed.
Edit:
The FAQ also weighs in on this question:
Headband of Vast Intelligence: If I wear this item, do I get retroactive skill ranks for my Int increase in addition to the skill ranks associated with the item?
No. The skill associated with the magic item represents the "retroactive" skill ranks you'd get from the item increasing your Intelligence. You don't get the item's built-in skill ranks and another set to assign however you want.
While it certainly doesn't explicitly cover skill points gained from levelling while wearing the item, the intent seems clear (to me) that the skill ranks from the item are the skill ranks from an increased Intelligence score.
I've ruled it than it has to be the characters modifiers, attributes and abilities that count towards prequisites not any magic items.
I've ruled it than it has to be the characters modifiers, attributes and abilities that count towards prequisites not any magic items.
You certainly can houserule that if you want, but the core rulebook says otherwise:
"Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics as appropriate. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."
Note: that also answers the question about whether the bonuses are lost when the item is removed.
As for the idea that Headbands of Vast Intellect give you free ranks in one (or more) skill(s) AND ALSO give you extra skill points because your INT is higher, well, I can't find a specific rules text that explicitly answers this.
But maybe logic can help us figure it out.
So, for 4,000 GP you can buy an item that gives a +2 bonus to STR, DEX, CON, WIS, or CHA. If you wear this item for 24 hours, your ability score actually goes up by 2 points as long as you keep wearing it. This also lets you adjust everything that the specific ability score applies to, so a belt that gives you +2 to your STR would add to your attack rolls, damage rolls, CMB, CMD, carrying capacity, climb and swim checks, and anything else STR applies to.
And for the same 4,000 GP you can buy an item that gives a +2 bonus to INT. If you wear this item for 24 hours, your INT actually goes up by 2 points as long as you keep wearing it. This also lets you adjust everything that INT applies to, such as bonus wizard spells, wizard save DCs, Knowledge skills, etc.
Now, normally increasing your INT by 2 points (for example, reading a +2 Tome of Clear Thought, gives you one skill rank for every level you have. Also, this Headband of Vast Intellect comes with one skill rank for every level you have, all of which are put into one single "built-in" skill. It's the exact same number of skill ranks because, in all cases including the Headband, what you're getting is the normal bonus to skill ranks for increased intelligence - but with the headband, you are forced to only get ranks in whatever skill has been "built-in" to the headband.
Apparently, some people think the headband gives you these "built-in" bonus ranks AND ALSO allows you to get bonus ranks you can spend when you level. This would mean that you increased your INT by 2 points and as a result you gain 2 extra skill ranks every level (which is too many; a +2 bonus to INT is only worth ONE extra skill rank each level, not TWO).
If we follow that flawed logic, there are 6 items that can increase different ability scores by +2 for exactly 4,000 GP, but one of them has a secondary skill bonus "built-in" for no extra cost.
Since Pathfinder doesn't give anything away for free, certainly not in the Magical Items chapter, this makes no sense.
Further, there is a rule for calculating the price of adding a second ability to magic items. The formula for Skill Bonus items (e.g. Cloak of Elvenkind) is the bonus ^2 x 100 GP. As a secondary ability, the price should be increased 50%, so the formula should be bonus ^2 x 150. The headband gives a variable bonus equal to the wearer's level which makes it hard to estimate the cost. Maybe a fair price would be the average of the minimum bonus (1) and the maximum bonus (20). That average is 10.5 so I'll drop the fraction and call it 10. (The only alternatives are to apply the forumla at the maximum amount of 20 which quadruples the cost, or do something even more strange and make the user pay cash to upgrade it at every level which is senseless).
So the Headband of Vast Intelligence that gives 2 skill ranks instead of 1 should be priced at 4,000 GP for the +2 INT and 10 ^ 2 x 150 = 15,000 for the skills, for a total of 19,000 GP. Technically, I should reduce the cost to 16,000 since the cheapest ability is the one to get the 50% price increase, so it should be 4,000 x 1.5 + 10,000 = 16,000 GP.
It's worth noting that the +2 Headband of Vast Intellect does not cost 16,000 GP so clearly this is not the intended function. All according to RAW, except for my guess about averaging the bonus for the forumla